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Punkbuster in Warhammer?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by deadite, Jul 13, 2008.

  1. deadite

    deadite Sage
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    I'm sure many of you remember a while back when they were working on implementing Punkbuster into UO. Well, obviously it never ended up happening. I don't recall if we ever got any reason (though they may have given one...)

    Anyways... Punkbuster is apparently being put into UO's upcoming sister game Warhammer: Age of Reckoning...

    http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/107894481/p1/?99

    Does this mean that there may be hope for Punkbuster in UO?
     
  2. K'torr

    K'torr Guest

    Probably not. Seams they want to do Warhammer right the first time. Putting PB in UO now would be like closing the barn door after the horse is already gone. I would say that, despite it's success, they are using UO as an example of what not to do in an MMO.
     
  3. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    Lets hope now, it seems they adopt the EA procedure of if it doesn't work, it never existed...

    Which of course we all know isn't true. UO Was their first foray into MMO use with Punkbuster.. and of course it failed... Thankfully.

    Thing that really gets me though is...

    Which is sad, because installing spyware on a customers computer isn't exactly what I'd call 'going the extra step'. In fact going the extra step means doing their job. Adding Punkbuster just adds another layer and spying on the customers in the hopes they don't actually have to do the work themselves. What's even worse is they'll cut staff and come to depend completely on PB for finding their cheaters because it's cheaper, easier, and marketing for them to do so, while not necessarily having any affect whatso ever from the hard core cheating that people complain about.

    I think it's a lot like the TSA, all a bunch of Security Theatre.

    Original Article for the quotes is here

    ~Rai
     
  4. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    Actually, it never got implemented. The amount of proverbial prick waving and whining and false information being produced about Punkbuster regularly saw to that. It didn't fail for any other reason other than the fact the UO devs got cold feet because the whining and threatening done by the playerbase here.



    This demonstrates the ignorance that is still hugely prevailent and always will be. It's sad how far the UO community has fallen at times, considering this was one of the greatest online communities.
     
  5. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    sounds like someone here is a duper that doesn't want to be caught
     
  6. UO was a test engine for WAR..
     
  7. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    At this point, I dunno what to think of UO anymore. I haven't really been happy with UO since Age of Shadows came out, though Samurai Empire made me happy for a little bit. About the only possible way I think UO can even get it' feet back under them is a total reboot of the game and rebuild everything from the ground up, but let's face it, that will never happen.

    UO's name was destroyed long ago, and I dobut many players in the MMO market even know what UO is.
     
  8. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    Unfortunately Punkbuster wouldn't help with the duping problem due to it being an exploit in UO's code, rather than a third party program being run alongside UO.

    It would work towards catching scripters and speedhackers primarily.
     
  9. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    A lot of duping in UO is done using third party programs to force the situations that typically allow for duping to occur. The problem is, UO has no way to track those duped items, at least that's the last thing I rememeber before I stopped playing.
     
  10. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    That hasn't been the case for the majority of them, including the ones happening now, most have been done by very standard game mechanics, albeit very unconventional strings of them, and could be done without the assistance of any other programs.
     
  11. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    IMO EA needs to realize they have a couple of niches in the MMO market and cater to them. Catering to the older school pvp players, which will bring back a lot of folks who love this game and the trammel players who love this game is about the only way they will be able to increase their player base and survive. I think it can be done at the same time if they were willing to put forth the effort and resources.

    At that point, Punkbuster would be a good idea. Until then.. its probably kinda pointless.
     
  12. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    I doubt it. Every single thing that "would bring players back" has failed miserably. And it's all documented. Removing statloss did bring back people in waves, removing the spell book from casters hands didn't bring people back in waves, restoring a lot of the old functionalities did not do that.
     
  13. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    I'm talking about some major catering that includes revamping Siege and/or adding another specialty shard that will cater to the old schoolers, since that segment of the community is whats been lost. Small changes won't bring many people [if any] back as history has proven. Anyone who has ever bought that was only fooling themselves.

    In any case, EA already caters to Trammel players and most seem to be fairly happy, so they have at least half of it right. They simply need to cater to both of their market niches and stop trying to compete with newer games. They simply can't compete with them. Our devs are spinning their wheels trying to do that. Hopefully our devs and EA will realize this sometime soon.
     
  14. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Punkbuster would really fall on its face with the UO cheats, I just can't see it working. There are enough "clever" cheats around who can keep a step or two ahead of punkbuster, which would render it useless. Never mind privacy issues, if it wouldn't fix the problem, it would be daft to implement it.

    I'm also not convinced that Punkbuster would like linux, which is a pity, because 2D and KR run fine in linux, and it would be a pity if a linux friendly game was pulled over to windows again. It would be handy if EA took the view of at least making their games easy to emulate on linux, and run on Macs, but I'm not holding my breath there. I'm just glad that the competition have noticed us linux geeks on the horizon lol.

    Wenchy
     
  15. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    There are no privacy issues with Punkbusters. They agree not to use or share any of your personal information and in the event they should, there are legal remedies available to you. That argument is a simple smoke and mirrors tactic used by those who are hell bent on using unapproved programs.
     
  16. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I made it pretty clear (I thought) that privacy wasn't my issue with PB, but it's effectiveness against smart coding cheats and how well it would work with Linux. I can easily protect my data from PB's nose by shoving files on a removable drive while I play UO. That aspect of PB is containable. But if it doesn't work on the problem and it throws a hissy fit at my OS, then I'd be out of UO.

    Wenchy
     
  17. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
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    You even contradict yourself :lol:, "There are No Privacy issues" then you say "and in the event they should, there are legal remedies available to you" ..... Why should I or anyone else take that chance & have to "deal with legal remedies". Read Punkbusters TOS closely & you'll understand many of our concerns. They have the Right to do with what Info they obtain anything they please. Would you take that chance with sensitive info, yours or whoevers? How many reports we all saw of "False bannings due to Punkbusters inaccurate readings of ISP lag, bad pings to servers, etc on games that used it" Myself & many others won't take a chance with their loose TOS, & snooping (spyware that it is) it does, to knowingly putting it on our computers. All it would take is "1" disgrunted employee to take & do something with someones personal or sensitive info on their computer & run wild with it. If you want to take that chance fine, many don't. Whats on my computer is mine & no one elses to see. I have many client passwords to alarms, accounts etc & to allow Punkbuster the right to even look at them "As They Choose to" is none of their business, it's mine. Yes it might be to extreme, but it IS possible.
     
  18. AdamD

    AdamD Guest

    I don't think Punkbuster's integration with UO was cancelled due to the people threatning to quit

    Not according to Jeremy anyways, she told me personally that it was due to "Legal reasons"
    I did speak with Tony ray, the founder of Punkbuster who confirmed punkbuster's integration DID work, but the client (EA) pulled out.
     
  19. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    While it was never publicly released, it was touted, listed as a supported game on the PB website and everything. If your eally think they never actually got it implemented internally, and then went and told everyone about it... that's a bit of crazy talk there if ya ask me. It's fairly safe to say they actually got it working, or very close to working before they said a word about it publicly.

    ~Rai
     
  20. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    The Privacy issue is that they COLLECT the information in the first place. That's the bit that's unacceptable. No 'legal remidies' would be needed if they didn't collect any information 'eh?

    Considering the collection of that information in the first place is the definition of spyware kinda blows the smoke out of the way. Much less sending it to a third party.

    ~Rai
     
  21. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    PUNKBUSTER GOOD!

    GRABASSES BAD!


    (no Lars...scripters bad)

    [​IMG]

    SCRIPTERS BAD!
     
  22. deadite

    deadite Sage
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    Yes, now I'm remembering all the people stamping their feet about "privacy concerns"

    LOL

    Punkbuster has been used for years. They are a reputable company. They make money because they are a reputable company. If they lose their reputation, they lose their business. They are not out to "steal your stuff" or look at what kind of porn you have on your box or get your bank account numbers. Give me a break...

    Punkbuster should be the LEAST of your privacy worries if you use the Internet. Seriously. Do some research on Internet privacy and I guarantee that Punkbuster is going to be far down the list of concerns.

    Either EA couldn't make it work or they decided that UO wasn't worth the invested time to make it work right. They certainly didn't cave to the "gonna quit" threats from a handful of misinformed Uhallers showcasing their lack of judgement.
     
  23. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    I can tell you the same thing, give me your UO ACcount & Password Info, it'll be safe honest.. because I say so! Others have given me theirs and they haven't complained! So it must be okay!

    The fact of the matter is, it's my computer not theirs they have no right to ANY information I do not wish to provide them, even if it's something I might willingly provide. Not the point, the point here is that it just takes it. But hey, you'll give me your UO info, and it'll be safe too, so it's all good right?

    Hand in hand with privacy concerns is also security. Anything that tells you to uninstall/disable your Anti-Virus/Firewall and/or internet security applications in order to play a freakin game has little to no respect for an individuals computer security. Plain and simple it's not just a bad idea, but they are telling you to open yourself up to potentially larger issues as a whole. Just like other EA software that can/will disable your CD Drive, it's a matter of they them being shady and doing things they really have no right to do on your machine. This rings especially true for the security conscious, and or those who may desire to be able to do things such as install on a work laptop so they can play when they travel.

    Not to mention, as far as MMO's go, your information isn't going to those you have created a contract with, it's going to a complete third party of which the people you DO have a contract with will take no responsibility for. It's defiantly a different beast as well if EA were collecting system specs and such and took responsibility for it than passing the whole thing off to a third party, especially when they application covertly takes More information than just the system specs.

    It's just my opinion, your welcome to disagree, I just happen to work for a security company, deal with computer security bits daily, and am very security conscious when it comes to what's installed on my PC's and how they affect the security therein. Feel free to make yourself vulnerable, but don't expect everyone else to be okay with doing so.

    ~Rai
     
  24. Considering how poorly UO is performing these days, PB might have helped stem the tide. My computer's security is something I pursue with the utmost diligence and I was originally against the idea of having to install PB to play various games such as Battlefield 2 or what have you. Now that more and more games use this service without many problems, I am no longer against the use of PB and now embrace it. All of the games which I play that use PB are nearly cheater free. It does annoy me somewhat that I see a PnkBstrA process continuously going in my taskmanager, but I can easily turn it off or delete the files.

    Am I afraid that my information can be public? Not as much as I used to be since most if not all of that information is already available be it through email or various approved programs running in the background.

    Punkbuster would have done a lot to curb some of these scripters in UO. For those against the idea, come up with something yourself. I can tell the current ideas are working like a charm. /sarcasm

    :wall:
     
  25. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest



    thank god.
    and
    thus will be the failing on warhammer. let's install spyware on our system's people so nothing we do is privet anymore.. btw do you really want EA watching you visit those porn site's ??
     
  26. Most younger gamers are already accustomed to Punkbuster and typically embrace it. It's the older gamers, which encompasses most of the UO playerbase, that aren't used to it and bash it without knowing all the details or make baseless assumptions.

    Punkbuster works, no question about it.
     
  27. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    So does just about everyone you do business with unless you pay cash for everything. Every website you visit collects certain information. It's no different. Furthermore, every single one of us have spywear on our computers at just about any given time, so that argument is pretty lame. Punkbuster is only interested in the cheat programs you may be attempting to use that are not approved by the company who has hired them to check. Are you always this paranoid or shall we get you a tin foil hat?

    And to the person who said I contradicted myself, I beg to differ. There was no contradiction. Anytime someone agree's to a set of rules or a contract, there is an official agreement between the parties involved. Just because you have a legal remedy in case the deal goes sour, doesn't mean it will go sour. In case you need it spelled out for you, "when" and "if" have two separate meanings. rolleyes:
     
  28. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    LOL If someone doesn't trust a particular product, that doesn't make them stupid, old, or anything else. Some people trust Even Balance, others wouldn't touch them with an electrified bargepole, the same goes for a lot of companies. It's a matter of what risks you perceive and how many you want to expose yourself to. Why is it necessary for Punkbuster fans to treat the non-fans like they're illiterate dummies? They're entitled to a different opinion just as you are.

    Wenchy
     
  29. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    I have to ask.. what the heck are you talking about?
    Is this some sort of convoluted apples to oranges comparison?

    Websites, Credit Card companies for one, have a limited amount of information that they CAN collect even if they wanted to. Your comparing a sandbox with the desert as far as available information to even collect.

    Just because YOU have Spyware on your computer, I don't see how that makes an argument lame... It's a lot like saying "I like pink, your argument is lame, I win! Hah!". Yes, that's right, it really doesn't make any sense. Personally, I don't.

    What PunkBuster have interest in now, does not mean that is all they will have interest in in the future, nor does it mean they will inform you when they decide to change their minds. Just because they 'say' something, doesn't make it true, or persistent. Again, this also goes to being a third party, and not the company who's software I actually purchased.

    It has nothing at all to do with Paranoia, and everything to do with Trust. That's what security is you know, various relationships of trust.

    ~Rai
     
  30. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    I agree. You, dont make any sense at all. Tin foil hat for you too!
     
  31. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Well... server siding anything that can be done in game would be a start toward eliminating UO's flaws from warhammer.

    Unfortunately, warhammer has one inescapeable and terminal flaw. It's not UO.
     
  32. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Don't knock tinfoil hats. They make excellent radiant barriers!
     
  33. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
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    Making a new shard, with punkbuster on it... and also making it a shard that is closed, so there is no xsharding to it ... that would be an idea. I know "oh great another new shard" ... but maybe doing this would show that people want to play on a "cheater" free shard.

    I know many players that would be happy to start over with 1000 gold... and the clothing on there back.
     
  34. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    Raina definitely does not make sense. I am still curious what s/he does to their computer they are so worried about having found out? UO Cheat? Illegal music and movies? Hrmm the list is endless, but considering the vehement objection to this, I would wager Raina is doing something illegla and is afraid PunkBuster might squeal on them, which would be quite funny honestly.

    Oh yea, if you are worried about people seeing you buy porn, you got nothing to worry about to the one who brought that up. Unless you paid cash for your videos, everyone in the fed who looks knows you buy porn.
     
  35. Raina

    Raina Journeyman
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    Actually, I do work, as I stated above. Last I checked it's not against the law to want to be able to comfortably be able to do my job on the same machine that I enjoy playing games on is it? If I'm working on a site, or customer contract and decide to take a break and hop online to play for an hour or so, is it so difficult to believe I might NOT want some 3rd party knowing who My customers are?

    I'm not a child unlike some of the previous respondents, believe it or not adults do play games, and most of them use their computers for more than games... You know for adult type things, paying bills, managing mortgages, finances. All of which are personal information that one reasonably wouldn't want to share just because they would like to play an MMO.

    There isn't a darn thing on my computer that might even remotely get me in trouble. Hell, even in UO my 'stuff' pales in comparison to almost everyone I know. That's not the point. Perhaps you simply can't understand the desire for privacy simply for the fact that you want it to remain private. The more rights you give away, both in politics and to game companies, the more rights of yours they'll do their best to take.

    If your incapable of understanding, much less actually having a discussion about topics that run deeper than "OMG Brittney's Pregnant!" Then perhaps you might just wish to save yourself the embarrassment.

    I'm defiantly not closed minded on the topic in the least bit, however responses like "OMG Brittney's Pregnant!" aren't exactly the type to persuade someone to come to the conclusion that PB is actually 'Okay'.

    Just because I actually do research and don't just haphazardly accept that a big company with a proven track record of taking advantage of people's word on something, doesn't mean I'm doing anything bad, or illegal, or that it's any of your business what anyone else does with anything.

    So please, either participate in a conversation and provide some intellectual insight into why there shouldn't be a concern, shut the hell up, or go play with your spongebob doll. Any of the above might actually allow for positive discussion to take place here *gasps* The horror.

    ~Rai
     
  36. Joyous2K

    Joyous2K Guest

    This is a great idea. SO the game would be the same, would just "opt in" to having the game regulated so it is the game and not hacks that play.

    I would do that. No XSharding is excellent too. It is essentially a clean slate. BEst new shard idea mentioned in about 40 years, I would say. Beats all the retro retro shards or the retro pseudo-retro shard recommendations. (the first retro is for the actual game)

    Someone come up with some downsides to this great idea. I am not seeing them, peripherally. SO a pub shard with PB installed and no hack transfers allowed. How is this bad? Is the only downside that you have played somewhere for eternity? Don't count that as a downside.

    That would relaly make me happy. All the loser cheats could stay on their shard and muck it up and have whatever they want their and then this PB shard would be the real UO to all those that want to do that. It would be totally consensual too because you would have to go to that shard to play. Best solution ever but it may cost money to use Punkbuster so it might not be feasible. I am definitely not in favor of paying more for this game. I would like to pay less, actually.
     
  37. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Ever dawn on you that they didn't put PB into UO because cheaters and scripters pay for more accounts than people that complain about them do? I am all for it in WAR because WAR probably won't have systems that make you script you don't want your hand to fall off and your eyes to explode, but its not a good idea in UO. What would be a good idea in UO would be to make unattended macroing legal again (it was in the first days of UO), and only ban those that are scripting gold farming or otherwise abusively scripting.

    If they refuse to fix the systems to be player friendly then they at least need to allow players to use programs to make those systems player friendly.
     
  38. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    What is the real difference between PB and Warden? Do they work pretty much the same? I know that WoW uses Warden and a system of ingame reporting to monitor their games, so I'm not sure what the difference is.
     
  39. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Translation: The players DID NOT WANT IT, so it never happened. Thats a good thing not a bad thing.
     
  40. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    The funny thing is that you both have no clue what you are talking about. The way I know that is that if you actually knew how to dupe that would make you a duper. Are you both admitting to being dupers? If not, then stop theorycrafting rather it takes 3rd party programs or not, rather there is a dupe happening right now or not, and other such things. Items that were made easier to get are going to drop in price (val hammer/barbed kits/doom artifacts) and that means they are going to drop in price. It has nothing to do with a dupe.
     
  41. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    Just because I know how dupes work, doesn't make me a duper, and claiming that I have no idea what I'm talking about is a ridiculous statement coming from someone rather uninformed themselves. I have reported countless bugs and a few ways to dupe over the years, and have known how to reproduce a few during their active times, though I never have, nor will I ever use a bug or dupe.

    I won't even justify that with an argument since I believe the fallacy speaks for itself.
     
  42. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    How did I know you would work this into a make a classical shard approach. The issue is that DAoC already had a classical shard. It lasted for around 5 months before it had fewer numbers then the production shards and those numbers kept dropping. That kind of throws out the idea of a classic shard doesn't it?

    They can't keep up with the current gaming industry due to a slew of issues. One of the biggest issues is that people simply don't like using items. I'm willing to bet more people have bailed on UO because they have lost items than for any other reason.
     
  43. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    They still gather and track the information. I'm betting AOL didn't mean to share all of their customer's credit cards with their hacker either, but it still happened. Why would I allow myself to let yet another company have unlimited access to my computer when they could also be hacked?
     
  44. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    All they gather is basic hardware information about your computer in case they need to ban you from the game. UO also has access to this same information and also sends it back to EA.
     
  45. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    I don't care about their reputation. It only takes ONE time and that reputation is ruined. If they have had problems they could have easily swept it under the rug. Reputation honestly means nothing. A lot of people do a lot of nasty crap and still have a good reputation.

    We have spyware busters, adware busters, fire walls, and virus protection programs to stop those things. You want me to allow a program full access to my computer willingly? I refuse to do so.

    It wasn't a handful. It was the vast majority of the ENTIRE player base. It wasn't even just UHall. There were freaking sit ins led ingame.
     
  46. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Please explain why the most successful computer game of all times doesn't use PB if its so successful. Also, WoW still has ways to police cheaters without using it, so it must not be necessary.
     
  47. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Just becuase you found some bugs or dupes doesn't mean you know how they work currently. If you know how the current "dupe" is working then please report it to the developers so they can fix it. I don't believe their is a dupe.


    It is not a fallacy. It is pure fact. When something gets more common the price drops. They just made val hammers, barbed runics, and doom artifacts MUCH more common they were before, so they are going to drop in price. It has nothing to do with a dupe.
     
  48. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Their own TOS says they have the right to inspect ANY part of your hard drive. That means they can gather anything they want under their TOS. Also, if WoW can police this information WITH OUT a third party program then why the hell does EA need a third party program to do so?
     
  49. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

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    Reading through this thread really shows a person just how many inexperienced people reply without facts to back anything up...

    I see a lot of posts that are nothing more than the persons personal belief on why this happened or why that didn't and so on and so fourth.

    I was going to dig up some things just to point out the truth behind much of it but after scrolling down reading more and more BS I decided it would take more effort than it would be worth lol.

    Oh well believe what you want...

    :postcount: