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PvP Dexer templates

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Skelf, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. Skelf

    Skelf Journeyman
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    Over the last few weeks, there has been a thorough discussion of the PvM Necro warrior/Sampire type templates and their strengths, weaknesses and how to tweak them. However, unless I missed it, little has been offered regarding their PvP cousins. I'd like to see this topic aired. However, I'd like to place some restrictions.

    Firstly, Archers are both powerful and popular - and there is a long thread on archer templates already. So no more please. Secondly, Stealth templates. I have a lot of affection for Hiding/Stealth assassin type melee characters but the way they operate is fundimentally different from straightforward melee characters as the balance between offence and defence is very different.

    So - please confine contributions to melee dexer templates only. If you feel you have a good hybrid, that's fine.

    Next - some assumptions:

    What are the "must have" skills? I'd suggest that:

    Weapon 120
    Bushido 120 (don't think this is in doubt - max chances for LS crit)
    Resist 120
    Tactics 90 (giving access to all specials)

    are the minimum - leaving 270 points for allocation elsewhere. As a starting point, it is very tempting simply to top up Tactics to 120 and place the rest in Anatomy and Healing giving you a 6 x LGD dexer.

    So how does:

    Weapon 120
    Bushido 120
    Resist 120
    Tactics 120
    Anatomy 120
    Healing 120

    look to people? Solid, unimaginative, basic tank..;p

    Comments:
    Will need to rely heavily on potions and apples. A good Ecru ring would be *very* useful. No real need for FC/FCR, wants a suit with lots of hits, 150 dex and good HCI/DCI. Depending on weapon leeches, might be tight on mana so LMC useful. Travel restricted to runebooks or gates/friends might restrict soloing ability.

    Other possibilities:
    Who would consider running Vamp form for PvP? It can be difficult to tell initially what with funny coloured Elves and hooded robes... If you did, could you run it without SS and what extra spells would you use (that don't need SS to be effective)

    Do you want to include Chiv for RC? (and get some travel thrown in)

    What weapon specials would you consider desirable?

    Is macing the obvious weapon choice due to stamina drain or are the weapons too slow?

    Is poisoning on a dexer worth it with Archcure, apples, potions etc?

    ..and so on. Let's hear from the people actually playing PvP dexers.
     
  2. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    How are you going to "tank" another melee skill player without parry?
     
  3. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    With all the ways of getting rid of curses (apples, chiv, faction bandies) and para spells (boxes), resists IMO could be dropped in favor of parry. Equip a one handed weap and chug pots, load up on max HCI and DCI and become that a-hole that is tough to hit. Yeah, you know know the one that all you hear is tink-tink-tink when you attack them.

    I have 80 poisoning on one of my dexxer and it is good against people not running scripts or those stealth chars that don't have resist or high healing, since they think that all they have to do is either go into wolf form and run away or hit a smoke bomb and hide.

    If you look at the weaps page in stratics, it has the option of putting in strength, stamina, tactics, anat, SSI, and DI for yourself and weapon and it will calc the damage and swing speed as well as how high you need to increase stamina to get the next level of swing speed increase.
     
  4. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    The biggest issue I have with playing a straight melee is that it's difficult to finish someone off unless you are running some sort of a speedhack. I recently changed my template to the following.

    120 Swords
    120 Parry
    120 Bushido
    100 Tactics
    100 Anatomy
    80 healing
    50 Chiv
    30 Med (Elf character, needed some addl regen, might put this back into healing not sure yet)

    Suit uses faction arties, capped in lmc/hci/dci/di. 11 MR, 4/6 casting.

    Pre-pot stats
    130 hp
    140 stam
    97 mana

    Defensively sound, 4/6 chiv casting with faction bandies and pots makes it difficult to kill.

    The general idea is to grind it out with bokuto and lightning strike to get them somewhere near 60% HP, at which point I nerve strike and switch to a UBWS Diamond Mace for a concussion blow. Rinse and repeat until RNG goes in your favor.

    Have only used it in the field a few times because I usually prefer to play a mage.

    Pros: Thing is a tank, near impossible to kill with the faction bandies and apples. The evade effectiveness bump from GM+ tact/anat is nice. Very disruptive for mages with the fast swinging bokuto.

    Cons: Lightning Strike crits are very unreliable. I've gone on 10 hit streaks all at normal dmg. Bok by itself hits for like 9 dmg at 100 DI and GM Tact/Anat. Then again.. I've gotten 3 crits in a row. Nerve Strike does not work if your opponent is casting a spell. It's difficult to time it when your opponent is spamming mini heals. If you go for a nerve and they are casting, its a waste of mana.

    It is also a very consumable dependant character. I wouldn't recommend this for first time dexers. You need alot of potions, apples, bandies, and a trapped box everytime you go out.

    Backup weps I carry is a Bardiche (Para/Dismount) and a War Fork (UBWS - Bleed/Disarm).
     
  5. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Have to say good point. I just don't see how the template is effective without parry. Can't evasion spam or do anything like that any more and from my dexxing experience 120 parry reigns supreme.

    Even with heavy balanced DCI/HCI build could still bat down someone with evasion spamming in the days before the 20 second timer was put in place.

    I myself don't agree with using a bunch of items in place of resist but all in your style I suppose.

    As many as most people LIKE to say they have 45 and 45...this is false. It's extremely difficult to have both coupled with 40 LMC and have max dexterity and near max or max HP.

    However when all you play is a dexxer it is possible to achieve these things.

    I don't or haven't dexxed in a while but I would say:

    120 weapon
    120 parry

    both of the above are essential

    120 anatomy
    90 healing
    120 resist
    70 chivalry (+10 from jewelry) 4/6 casting
    90 tactics

    That is the old template I ran...whether using it now I don't know.

    As far as nobody speed hacking though, anyone is dead with this template. I already discussed this in the PvM templates but, MANA is king.

    If you don't have MANA you lose the war. So many people are in favor of weapons with spell specials on them but...I'm dexxing so eh that does nothing to me. You aren't going to prevent me from healing AND I can just keep hitting at you.

    With max strength and max dexterity you are just a royal pain. Take forever to kill and even death strikes and such would do little damage. Even that the other person runs away when not enough damage is done.

    MAX LMC combined with the best of weapons will make you outlast your opponent in a duel.

    In the olden days before the tactics change you could have poisoning instead of tactics and it was an even more lethal template.

    Your only opposition would be extreme hybrid templates and another good dexxer. Mages and archers were able to do little versus this template.

    All those things said, plenty of pros and cons.

    PROs: Good defensive template. No worry about carrying items. Good balance template to deal with mobs as well aside from normal PvP opposition.
    Good against almost any archer template or mage template. (They would have to have VERY good tactics to stand a chance).

    CONS: Very item and very weapon dependent. Not a newcomer setup...macros and connection have to be flawless. Have to carry a lot of weapons to 1. deceive the opponent...meaning you show a weapon then use another...and then follow that with a different weapon. 2. Have to know EVERY single weapon and its specials in order to execute properly. Very mana intensive. Need over 80 mana. I personally ran between 92 and 102. Rely heavily on mana regeneration equipment, weapon with mana leeches and stamina leeches.

    Using this template now, probably still doable. I have used ecru rings which help. Long time reliability, I'm not sure. I haven't PvP dexxed in a while, but basically this template is VERY mana dependent....and you have to have a lot of it.

    Main goal is to create A LOT of disruption in 3 to 5 seconds. You can adjust it as needed to make holy light a weapon if you wanted to...I kept anatomy high because that way I can use weapons without DI on them that had properties I liked.

    Main weakness of this template is...a REALLY long fight against a good mage or another good dexxer.

    If using bushido instead of resist, you have much the same template I suppose as Lynk. Any of the numbers you can tweak and adjust to your liking...it's a solid setup.

    That said, it all boils down to...WHAT TACTICS you are trying to utilize...to kill an opponent.

    You have to have enough different tactics and strategies so...you aren't predictable.
     
  6. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Faction arties alone give you 35 HCI. (Stormgrip, Talisman, totem). Fey Legs +20 DCI, Quiver + 5 DCI. Ring is 1/2 20 EP, 12 hci , 14 dci. Just a little bit of DCI on the bokuto I'm max.

    Tunic is 15 LMC (RBC), Orny is 10 LMC (also 6 MR between the 2), so only needed 15 LMC between gorget and arms. I do stand corrected though.. its 10 mr not 11.
     
  7. Skelf

    Skelf Journeyman
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    Was tempting to say I left Parry out to test you ..;p Truth is I simply overlooked it as I completed post whilst kids arrived back from school.

    I run 120 Parry myself which makes it even dumber..;p I don't really rely on Healing and have low Anat.

    Anyone brave enough yet to take Vamp form into PvP? Or is that naive enough.,..?

    Nice responses
     
  8. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Yeah good point but I was excluding the new Faction arties. I was talking about being a real stand alone dexxer. It used to be more difficult when the ornament of magician cost was a lot more.

    I still find Faction a bad incentive in order to just get the items. If you already had the items, then what?

    But, case in point and rethinking that quote, you are probably right anyways. It is easier to make a suit now with higher LMC than it was a few years ago.
     
  9. Kdog7777

    Kdog7777 Guest

    I like this thread, was about to post another template talk thread but this is pretty close to what I was driving at anyway :)

    I have one dexer already, 120x fence, tact, anat, heal, bush, parry, and I do pretty good with that char, typically own mages & other dexers tends to be just a boring fight that goes in circles unless a lot of weapon spells hit in a row.

    Anyway, as mentioned above, my biggest problem with this temp is landing a killshot. People run & while I have a real nice connection, it's just tough to get right next to em to land that final shot before they can heal, so I came up with this rough idea...

    Definitely will have:
    120 arch
    120 maces
    120 tact

    Then some combination of these skills:
    either 120 bush & 100 anat or vice versa (any opinions on this?)
    100 healing
    40 chiv

    possibly would drop heal to 90 & have 50 chiv if 40 doesnt seem enough, but only need it for cure, remove curse, heal & cons weap.

    Main idea being to rely on mace primarily, but be able to throw on a moving shot bow when an opponent starts running. Can also lead off with a heavy shot of course too for dismount & a nice chunk of dmg.

    Any thoughts on this temp? My main question is whether it is more beneficial to have 120 bush or 120 anat, or perhaps 110 in both? i want my critical LS shots, but not sure if that will outweigh the dmg bonus & heal bonus from anat. Any thoughts/advice much appreciated.
     
  10. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    This is a good template, but to make it work you need alot of mana. I would just axe fitting Chiv. I use a lot of skill increase jewels on my melee/archer. After items my template comes to:

    archery 120
    tactics 120
    Resist 115
    Healing 100
    Anatomy 100
    Meditation 98
    fencing 120

    And I'm seriously considering dropping resist to 120 anatomy, 120 med, and put the rest in focus..

    I went fencing because I like to use a fork and do the disarm/bleed, then switch to a composite with hit spell.
     
  11. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    Not worth dropping resist IMO. It's a good open field template but mana vamp would render you useless. Not to mention you'd eat through cure pots/petals too fast (unless you carry 100 of each!).
     
  12. GFY

    GFY Guest

    No body going to give a ninja some love?

    Ninjitsu can be very effective in PVP. It's a bit different then stand up templates, but shadow strike, death strike, hiding, stealth, shadow jump, and deadly poisoned shirkins can be very effective if played well.
     
  13. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    Actually, I think ninja dexers are the best kind. They take a lot more finesse to play correctly though. It's not a tank like a pure dexer/chiv dexer/bushido dexer that you can just run in and pound stuff. Well okay... it sort of is, but you want to be able to use deathstrike correctly since it's a huge mana hog, not to mention those templates don't generally have resist and can be hard to play for someone not used to it.
     
  14. GFY

    GFY Guest

    I agree completely. They are one of the more difficult templates to run well, but at the same time a well run ninja dexer (Not archer but these are good to) can be one of the biggest pains in the @$$ to fight against!
     
  15. Skelf

    Skelf Journeyman
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    Leaving out the templates with Ninja and Archery as these are both very different in playstyle from the dexer melee tank (and both really warrant their own discussion threads), I like the look of:

    Weapon 120
    Parry 120
    Bushido/Resist 120
    Tactics 100
    Anatomy 100
    Healing 90
    Chivalry 70

    Comments:
    Bushido for dexer heavy environment, Resist if you meet a lot of mages or aren't sure what to expect. Probably more survivability with Resist.

    Tact/Anat at 100 for extra Evasion bonus when running Bushido

    Chiv for travel, Divine Fury, Close Wounds, Cleanse and Remove Curse plus Consecrate (for what it's worth in pvp).

    90 Healing (34-56 isn't significantly worse than 100 (36-60).

    I personally prefer to have all skills hard-wired rather than on kit as finding the right jewellery to slot into different templates is hard enough for one setup let alone several.

    Any strong feelings either way on this basic, plain vanilla, dexer template?
     
  16. GFY

    GFY Guest

    I'm just wondering about swapping bushido and resist. Unless you know your dueling a mage I would probably never take bushido off. It could be a big adjustment in play style and make you re-do your macros, making playing the tempalte more difficult. (I would hate to hit my confidence macro and realize as I die that I had stoned bushido for resist! :eek:
     
  17. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    I play a template like this with 4/6. It's great for survivability but it's not the greatest for killing someone. I wouldn't bother with resist even against a lot of mages, since your evade/confidence/parry while chugging/lightning strike criticals are worth more than being able to resist a few spells.
     
  18. Skelf

    Skelf Journeyman
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    GFY:<< Unless you know your dueling a mage I would probably never take bushido off>>

    Chaosy: <<I wouldn't bother with resist even against a lot of mages >>

    There we have it gentlemen...;p

    Do we see a convergence of opinion here? To a large extent, it's still playstyle and preferences. I feel it's also somewhat refreshing that UO hasn't, unlike many other MMORPG's, yet come down to perfect minimax templates and there is still room for wide divergence based simply on personal taste...
     
  19. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    It's true. For someone not used to restocking potions and trapped boxes everytime they die, resist is better. However, with all the items that are out there, resisting spells is moot. It really depends on the situation, but all my friends that play a dexer and do it well (arguably some of the best in the game) do not have resist on their templates.
     
  20. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    I like what you say here. IT is true that most MMORPG's have solo only classes or races which do the best.

    It personally does come down to preference. For me, while it is easy to make macros for potions, apples, trap box, etc...I still prefer resist spells. I personally fight in areas where there are always monsters that shoot a lot of spells. Needless to say, someone packing around all those items is not going to be going to those places...they are going to be gate fighting...in my book.

    WHICH...to the extent of it, is what a portion of UO calls PvP.

    However, there are very good templates which don't use resist...and aren't necessarily "gate fighting" type of templates either. I won't really elaborate since there are a few of them but either they are based around being

    A. Really offensive and go for a very quick kill or

    B. Mostly defensive in nature and you are going to go for outlasting your opponent.

    Downside is basically you won't be outlasting much if you get another opposing member guildmate attacking you...or you will just be the evasive pain in the butt and not kill anyone. OR basically you will have to count on your opponent not being able to counter what you are going to do.

    All those things said, you aren't doing much against getting your mana taken away by spells...yeah you can replenish it...but then what?...when you run out of potions...which will inevitably happen.

    If I've countered everything you've done AND taken your mana...you pretty much are defenseless. Reason why I've predominantly...but not always kept resist spells.
     
  21. GFY

    GFY Guest

    I think basically what everyone is saying is; Resist is necessary on your template, UNLESS you use other ways to work around it.

    Samouri can use evasion and other specials along with apples, boxes, petals, etc.

    Ninja can use smoke bombs, stealth, & hiding to avoid the problem.

    But if you don't have some way of dealing with the spells that can be cast on you you should have resist on your template.
     
  22. Prosecutor

    Prosecutor Guest


    What Jewels and suit do u use to make this work?
     
  23. Bouche835

    Bouche835 Guest

    Well please post one. I would like to see what are some opitions for ninjitsu. I have been thinking about building one but I am not sure about the template. No archery here would like fencing/swords (since I am 120 swords)
     
  24. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Recently changed the template due to lack of mana. Jewels were high skill increase, DCI, and DMG. It was more of a support char.

    I changed him around significantly.
     
  25. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I just finished this new ninja template last night. Had a lot of fun playing him.

    100 Hide
    80 Stealth
    120 Swords
    120 Bushido
    120 Ninja
    60 Chiv
    115 Tactics (or 120 if you have a 720 skill cap, this acct is 715)

    It's quite entertaining. 4/6 casting (go 1 handed if you can fit orny in). It's purely for the quick strike. Long drawn out battles won't work due to no med.

    I was stealthing up, dismount, nerve strike, death strike, nerve strike. If they were still alive I just kept nerve striking (125 mana pool on my guy). I have pretty low stam because I use a bokuto for the most part. Easy to build the suit and cap HCI with faction items.

    Parry dexers I had to disarm before starting the nerve combo.

    The get-away is pretty easy, just run spamming confidence and pots, or smoke bomb, or go to wolf form and run through a 1 tile alley summoning mirror images to stam block and hide around a corner.

    Nerve/DS/Nerve ranges from 100-118 dmg in my trials last night (in a very short time span). This was when my hit spell went off.

    It's a fun build to play when none of my guildies are on.
     
  26. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
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    How do you guys go 4/6 chiv?
    Orny and ring and fc 1 weapon? Or fc2 weapon?
     
  27. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Orny ring and fc 1 weapon.
     
  28. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    Interesting template, reminds me of my old Ninja/Sammy before they nerfed DS (no need for hiding/stealth prior) and I also had poison. I actually might give that a try, since all my chars were scrolled with 120 ninja prior to the nerf, and now all of em have their skill stoned away :p

    Whats the dmg like on the DS without hide/stealth? I have a char with 170 mana and can swing her bok at max speed using a 40 ssi bok...will definitely try this template out! Just gotta train hiding/stealth now
     
  29. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I have a friend who plays a stealth archer, we make a game out of tracking someone and seeing how fast we can kill them.

    We'll both get em on tracking and follow them till they are semi-alone. I'll either stealth 1 tile away or shadow jump directly next to them and get on my ethy.

    I use a regular mace as my alt weapon. When my friend is ready I'll disarm, he dismounts, I nerve/ds, he concs. If needed I'll nerve again.

    It's pretty funny and the guy is insta dead in like 3 seconds.

    It does work well 1 v 1 as well, but I found that it works best if you disarm.
     
  30. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    Definitely better with a disarm first, even on mages if they are using a mage wep!

    Actually, I used to run necro on my samurai/ninja as well...with the 20 human tracking, I would love hiding with NS/DS then wait til they started running, hit em with an Evil Omen and watch my DS do like 75 dmg...was hilarious!! (60 from tracking bonus + 15 (25% of 60) = 75) Was usually a little overkill but funny nonetheless to watch a guy go from 3/4 life to dead! Wish I could fit in 50/50 necro/ss into your template for just Evil Omen and Pain Spike for finisher.

    Sucks they made ninjitsu such a sub-specialized template. Should make DS dmg tied to Hiding since Stealth already requires Hiding, AND a weapon skill is involved too...that's crazy how you need 120 wep/120 ninja/100 hide/80 stealth to be able to use this one move...420 skill points...shame, ninja would be much more versatile without all the pre-reqs!
     
  31. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    There is no FC2 weapon. You can add versatility however by having FC1 weapon, FC1 shield, FC1 jewelry on each piece (1/3 ring and 1/3 brace).

    FC1 shield with good HCI and DCI is rare though unless you are old school and have played a while or have tons of funds...since a good one of those will cost over 30 mill or so.
     
  32. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    There is a 2 handed weapon that there is a recipe for that has 1 FC by default. If you use a runic you can get FC 1 and have FC 2.
     
  33. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Will that work? Crafting mages rune blade w/a runic and getting FC2?
     
  34. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Isn't that how it works with twinkling scimitar? You get the added DCI?
     
  35. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Ya... just wasn't sure on FC. It makes sense though =)
     
  36. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Ah, excellent point. Yeah you are correct. lol, I forgot about that dratted rune blade.