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pvp in VvV ruined by thieves?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Is it just me, or was vvv instantly ruined by thieves?

    I know thieves don't get many bones thrown their way, but vvv was supposed to be about fighting for a town... A PvP engine. I can't even tell you the last time I saw a town won by fights and capturing altars.... Its always some random guild thief stealthing around.

    Every sigil they grab is a huge boost in the "progress bar". I know there are ways to stop the thieves, or track/detect.. etc. But I didn't see what was supposed to be a PvP engine turning into stealthing thief hunting to even capture a town.

    The old factions town systems required a thief to capture the sigil but it required PvP to hold the base... Now all I see is stealthibg thieves running around grabbing sigils and racking up points in the name of selling pardons for gold... My guess at least, because I don't see any other reason why they do it.
     
  2. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    I feel the same way about non-pvp players being run out of town, literally, by VvV pvp players.
     
  3. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not sure why a non PvP participating player would even bother with fel content to be honest... But that is a totally separate discussion. There is plenty of non PvP based content in this game... Please don't give the traders quest in fel as an excuse.

    They finally tried their hand at a PvP system... Whether it is good or bad is up to debate, but it is becoming less used and pointless quickly.
     
  4. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    I was initially going to argue with you Cetric and say that thieves stealing sigils didn't stop you from PvPing or taking alters but realistically if the bragging rights is getting your guild name on the score sheet as the winner of a match then actually this really is a valid point. Perhaps there is a compromise here? There are two types of points in VvV right? There are match points (which push the progress bar along) and silver points (used to buy stuff). Maybe, just maybe stealing sigils and taking alters and getting kills should all get the same amount of match points for the win condition. However, let stealing and returning sigils continue to get double silver points. This allows the thieves to still have their bone while allowing PvPers to get the bragging rights of winning a match.
     
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  5. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    They definitely need to do some kind of tweaking to this system. It needs it badly.
     
  6. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I think that is definitely part of it (is there somewhere to see vvv point stats?)

    From a PvP aspect though, most PvP is about fighting over something, powerscrolls is a great example. You couldn't claim to have won the fight and wiped out your opponent unless you killed the champ and won the powerscrolls. In the vvv town capturing, you can get kills and capture alters, but you never realistically win the town like you said, because while you were pvping a thief was taking the "glory' for a lack of a better term.

    You could even hunt down and stop the thieves, but those progress bars can become insurmountable in a hurry for some reason... You can be in the town for the first 2 minutes and win if you are a thief.

    I could care less about the silver points for buying stuff, so maybe what you just proposed is a worthwhile avenue to explore.
     
  7. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    The only way to see the match points is at the end of the match on the score sheet. The silver points can be checked at the silver trader any time.
     
  8. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Guess there's room for improvement there too... Maybe they will put that info on the new myuo site.

    Although I can't imagine it would be pretty info to see how "godly" some of the thieves would be in that light lol.
     
  9. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    Where in the guide does it tell that felucca is only for pvp? I grew up there, and I like to do most of my trading there and travel there.

    But - I do not pvp... Did I do a mistake?
     
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  10. Lord Lew

    Lord Lew Lore Keeper
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    Umm I'm doing the slim trade quests, and get jumped constantly by VvV players. I'm wearing no armor, So I'm an easy kill
     
  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    If there was PvP enabled content in a different facet I'm sure PvP would venture there. If vvv was in the dungeons you wouldn't see a sole in the towns. At least you have an option to do your business in another facet. You are only relegated to fel by choice and nostalgia it sounds like.
     
  12. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    They do plan on putting the scores on MyUO. The new MyUO is a work in progress from what I've read. I think they were going to make a viewable leader board in game too, somewhere.
     
  13. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    I do hunt and seek in fel - but its no where in my guide it says that is restricted to pvp!!! You are totally wrong sir!!!

    If I am not wrong - I should be allowed to hunt and deal in felucca as much as anyone else, even tho I do not like to pvp. Is that a failure for me?

    You are stating that felucca facet is only for pvp, but - there is a lot of players that like to hunt and deal there. Just doing other bussiness than pvp - and if I am not wrong, the whole game is set up to the varity of doing craftmans work, treasure hunts, fishing, trading, housing, hunting - and people vs people.

    But as you are stating it - felucca is ONLY for pvp...

    So, where am I wrong??? Or - do I not apply to the rules to settle felucca facet???
     
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  14. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I never said fel is for PvP only. But it is an open and accepted risk to play there without the potential for pvp. By even being jn fel you are consenting to pvp. There us no restriction saying fel is for pvp only... But i have seen plenty of signs and warnigs saying that by entering fel you are consenting to the risk.

    I just don't understand your argument. Being in fel opens you up to the potential to fight or be killed by a player. You know it and everyone else knows it. If you didn't want that, they made a copy of fel for you to play in a long, long time ago.

    Why would someone complain that they can't craft in fel without being open to attack when they could go to trammel, malas, ilshenar, tokuno, or the garg city and do it without he risk?

    I'm sry, but it just doesn't make sense to me. But this isn't the point of this thread... So back to thieves skewing PvP in the vvv system.
     
  15. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    You stated that Felucca is only for PVP here...

    And you are wrong, its many consepts and sides and skills and templates. Not everyone like to fight or got the movement in their fingers more.
     
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  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I said I don't see why they bother.... I didn't say there was some magic rule in the tos. Youu read into that how you want to read into that and draw ur own conclusions... But LIKE I SAID I'm not sure why a non PvP participating player would even bother with fel content. If I logged on tomorrow and decided I didn't want to risk dying to a player, I'm 100% confident I could avoid it and successfully play uo in its current state. You could not say that 17 years ago.

    Back to the topic please?
     
  17. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    17 years ago, i had only felucca as my home. I ran to rat valley or to ice dungeon and earned my gold - and got killed to loose it. I built up my chars to be able to escape any conflicts. That doesnt mean I NEED to pvp - to play there. Maybe I just love to play in felucca without pvp!!!

    All my chars except my crafter has gm or more resist spells, and other skills to being able to run away - but that dont mean I have to pvp! It is many benefits of playing in felucca!!!
     
  18. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Got Whine? Adapt of FAIL!!! Hire a detective to work with you to protect the towns. Or, deal with your inability to kill a thief...la
     
  19. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Good for you mandrake good for you. You except the risk of playing in fel. Have at it. More power to you.


    I'm done here lol. Have at it Rico, thieve your heart out. I guess I'm the only one that doesn't see this "PvP system" as a PvP system.
     
  20. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    I played there for 17 yrs, i know the risk - and the fun. I do champs, pvm, trades and live there.... But plz dont exclude me cuz I dont pvp...my fingers cant move that fast anymore :(
     
  21. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    Also +17 yrs playing UO. My blue and green tents started right off the beach above Shame. All my grandfathered homes are in Fel across several shards. I will not be leaving Fel nor giving up my homes because someone wrongfully thinks :

    I quit PvP years ago when I realized every single player I knew that was seriously into PvP used a speeder program and/or scripts. I refuse to play with cheaters so I play other games for my PvP fix, games that enforce fair game play via PunkBuster or other means. I consent to nothing. I deal with the situations forced upon me.

    PS. Not trying to derail your topic but the attitude "PvP in Fel or leave" is annoying, to say the least. If your the Cetric that used to play in CYN on Atlantic +10 yrs ago, I was one of ur guildmates :).
     
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  22. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    Yep - let the pvp or leave be out of it!!!!
     
  23. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Gosh.... why in the hell would such a warning be displayed for me entering this land known as Felucca?

    It couldn't be because... *gasp*

    [​IMG]


    OMGOSH! From the uo player guide on uo.com:

    Felucca is the original facet to be populated in Ultima Online. Like Trammel, it is named after one of the twin moons of Sosaria. While Felucca shares many common traits with Trammel, its rules governing player interaction differ greatly. Most significantly, player versus player combat is allowed – even if it is not agreed to by both parties. Player theft is also permissible, though if a player is caught stealing in a “Guard Zone” (primarily in towns and in the immediate area around a permanent moongate) the Guards may be dispatched to kill the thief. Felucca is viewed by some to be a dangerous place, while others point out that its’ rules set provides more freedom to play as one wishes.




    By playing in this dangerous land... would you not then be consenting to the idea that you could be freely attacked and killed? Whether you want it or not, it could happen, so you are still consenting to the notion that it can and does happen. Whether you choose to fight back is your choice i suppose, but your "say" doesn't matter in this land..
     
    #23 Cetric, Oct 16, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
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  24. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    To be told that you are viable to be attaced by another player!!! I used the last option on all my chars...

    Why you ask this? And why you gasp for it???

    You and me know that going to felucca makes you wonerable to attacs from other players, but that dont mean its only for pvp. Now I think you should go to bed!!!
     
  25. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    SO WAIT


    WAIT A MINUTE HERE.

    You use the last option. By choosing the last option you are electing to NOT ENTER FELUCCA. Yet you say you spend your playtime in Felucca. You make no sense. and again i nevr said it is ONLY for pvp. if you can find where exactly you think i said exactly those words, then feel free to prove me wrong. Your argument is all over the place at this point.
     
  26. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    sorry i was too fast - i used the middle one, and never be reminded again...my fault. (was not reading the picture correctly and i was mistaking)

    It's been a long time since i saw it last time - but I see you just got it...so you dont play in fel with all your chars...
     
  27. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Wonder why they added 1k luck bonus to fel....
    But back on track.
    Usually if someone gets just 1-2 min to a VvV town before u, its more or less a win for them, the progressbar moves too fast, even if u manage to capture 3 alters, u still loose.

    Cetric, does have a point. What he tries to say is that its hard to defend something you dont know where is..And he is right about that.
     
  28. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    So now you are revising your
    So you do not pvp, but you play in fel. So back to that other statement... good for you, I have no idea why you have even injected yourself into this attempted discussion regarding how stealing sigils works in VvV. If you want to run around on your crafter and potentially get killed, have at it. Sandbox yourself to death mandrake.

    You are absing this entire stupid argument over my below statement:

    "I'm not sure why a non PvP participating player would even bother with fel content to be honest... But that is a totally separate discussion.

    This is my opinion. there is nothing factual about this. I am not sure why a non pvp participating player would bother with fel content. If you want to, then thats your business. You obviously have a different play style... but again, this lends nothing to the original topic. Now, i know i said i was done with this argument before, but i took another stab at it... oops. Now i can be done.
     
  29. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    So - this is a big welcome to felucca??? Or for us that grew up there?

    Did you ever notice that the globe is bigger than your little village son?
     
  30. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Thank you for shooting back to the original discussion. This is exactly my point, i was pushing it in regards to thieves but you are right.

    If player X is in trinsic, and trinisic is besieged(or whatever) that progress bar shoots up crazy fast until someone comes in. You probably cannot capture the town at this point. If that person is a thief and steals a sigil... well then you might as well wait until next time.
     
  31. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    Yeah - get back on track and dont exclude non pvp'ers.
     
  32. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Join VvV and then theres is nothing to be excluded about.

    I never said thieves shouldn't have a role... i just think that role needs toned down a bit.
     
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  33. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    I would agree that the thief/sigil part needs to be nerfed as far as the points towards progress or altar fights need to happen as soon as one is done and be worth more. perhaps once a thief steals the sigil he shouldnt be allowed to hide until its turned in. Furthermore perhaps there could be a timer set on the sigil so it couldnt be turned in quicker than altars are won. As in the sigil cant be turned in if one has already been turned in during that altar fight. Once an altar is won the sigil could be turned in.

    I think this would inspire more group efforts in pvp and fel life. As of right now the thieves do their thing and the pvpers do theirs. There is not a lot of mixing the two.
     
  34. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    The entire VvV system failed in my eyes. It's a new "yew gate" style of pvp which caters towards classes and char setups that I despise. The entire way the VvV works, there is no reason to kill anyone. You don't get points, you don't get a score, you don't win the town/round. Usually we are fighting with a few thieves winning the towns, nothing to do with the actual fight. Also is it just me or are the towns super duper laggy? Yeah another good thing about VvV, laggy towns!

    Speaking on the thief part again here.. does the vice or virtue sigil guys make a difference for winning the town? NO?! why have 2 then? Clearly there must be some reason..
     
  35. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Town control in UO has revolved around sigils since the beginning and stealing sigils has always revolved around thieves..... I am very happy to see they incorporated the concept but also agree wtih the majority that it needs some work.

    Simple things like requiring a thief to bring a sigil to the active altar, holding a sigil reduces thieving skills (hiding, stealthing, etc) which will bring thieves to the conflicted areas and encourage a thief to pass a sigil to a guildmate.

    -Lore's Player.
     
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  36. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Uh, you realize it is a pvp system right? Besides, non pvper's aren't excluded.
     
  37. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

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    As long as you manage to be in the city 2 minutes before an opposing Guild you are gonna win the city by having already more progress in the bar, which makes it boring if you are a couple minutes late to the city as there is nearly no point fighting.
    On the other note, yeah thieves right now are gods gift for VvV guilds as they will win all the cities for their guild even if the other members all lose and die, due to the progress in the bar.

    I think that non- VvV players should be able to go into any city in Fel without the risk of having to join in PvP or VvV, if not why the hell did they put 1000 luck in Fel, if its only to be used by VvVs and PvPers..... I think they didn't think of this for smaller shards, seems to me that this idea was thought out just for shards like ATL or the US ones that have a lot more players than other shards, where all protect each other.
    I play in Europa and I have had tons of people comming back for RTB and most of them say they will leave again after the month due to this new VvV which stops they from hunting in Fel due to them having to join VvV or PvP. As an example I can put a Miner or BS in a fel city doing his work and the city goes to war and he is forced to leave the city, this is just making it more difficult for players that dont want to PvP or VvV
     
  38. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i wanna know what your killing in towns to utilize the luck bonus. all i find are birds and dogs
     
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  39. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    cetric has an extremely good point. i played a faction thieve when they were first revamped and was a very asset to my faction. however stealing did not "win", you had to defend the sigils.

    since the only thing you defend in vvv is the alters, i would give higher points for defending / taking, less points for stealing.
     
  40. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    There has always been the possibility of PvP in Felucca, always. Factions and now VvV didn't change that. In fact once upon a time ALL 8 (before Magincia was removed as a faction town and the number dropped to 7) faction towns had guard zone removed!

    The only inconvenience VvV invokes on non-PvPers who decide to play in Felucca is a one in eight chance every 5 minutes that for a maximum of 20 minutes their city of choice will be off limits. Lets take a look at how many areas someone who decides to be red is denied?

    1. Any place in Trammel
    2. Any place in Ilshenar
    3. Any place in Malas
    4. Any place in Tokuno
    5. Any place in Ter Mur

    Who should be complaining again?
     
  41. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    I am LOVING my faction thief being useful again but this is a fantastic idea. Needing a thief to steal the sigil but then having to pass it on to a guildmate who can actually defend it? Genius.
     
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  42. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    I agree the new system needs some work but I do not agree it is a fail nor do many others who participate daily. It has so many advantages over Yew gate. I sold all of my Yew gate houses over the last year or so because I was absolutely sick of that type of fighting. VvV does not make me think Yew gate. It isn't as awesome as champ spawn fighting was when it first came out because as you said the reasons for fighting are limited but, its a step in the right direction and I hope with everyone's input it gets better.
     
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  43. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

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    I must of not been clear, sorry if it mislead anyone,
    What I meant on the luck comment was that they added 1000 + Luck for the Felucca shard, I think to make people enter Fel for better loot drops.....
    Hunting in Fel, we all know has its dangers and we all know about them, even the ones trying to play dumb. Its a PvP facet so yeah you can get attacked, that dosnt mean that everyone entering Felucca are going to PVP, some might go in for other reasons.....
    My main comment was about the Vet players not wanting to come back due to PVP, They might be in a town, mining/lumbering/BS away, cause dont forget Fel has also double resources drops, so helps people training the skills or resource gathering for themselves. I know its not a massive great thing, But if you are very comfortably mining/lumbering away in a town, you dont want to get pushed out or have to run away cause that city went into battle and a whole load of Reds are heading your way for 20 minutes.
    Even in Fel, before PVP, you could be in the city and if a red attacked you, you just shouted Guards and that was it, problem solved, the Red got smashed by the guards for flagging against you, If you attacked you would get same treatment. Right now with the new PVP system, theres not that option, the city goes to war and thats it, end of discussion, if you not gonna fight or hide you got to leave the city, In my opinion thats a step back and pushes players away, as some older foggies, cant fight or dont want to, and just wanna do a realxing resource gathering.
    I am pro PVP in one sense, but I also dislike it, Theres no merit killing a crafter if you have an uber pvp build and that is what seems to be happening.
     
  44. Glenny glenn

    Glenny glenn Adventurer

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    I have an issue with thieves as well in vvv, on chessy where I play theres a set of stealthers that avoid pvp at all cost to win cities. If they would atleast make the sigil person not be able to stealth during the process of taking he sigil to the priest it would atleast give people who don't have a thief to stop them from stealing a town right from under them.
     
  45. Fingers

    Fingers Adventurer

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    Woopsy. I thought PeeVeePee = player vs player, as in mage vs warrior, archer vs mystic, thief vs sigils? Since when did PvP change to mean "must attack another player", nor anywhere I read about VvV meaning "must attack another player". PvP, player vs player, not MAP= Must Attack Players. Lastly, Cetric.....I didnt see you say ONLY pvp in fel, but you surely insinuated it. To be sure you and I are on the same page, I can and will come to fel, should I decide to, to do whatever I wish, even if it means NO pvp initiated by me. I may craft, cook, taste ID, trick or treat (someday I hope) mine, chop wood, etc, etc. Im not saying you specifically, but theres a lot of "pvp'rs" who certainly think they rule fel and always revert to insulting those who decide not to as "trammys" and seem to think they can decide for me if I should be in fel or not. VvV is new, hopefully it will get some tweaks, but THIEVES pay to play same as any other template. Just sayin.......
     
  46. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

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    Since when are thieves not part of PvP?
     
  47. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The ideas regarding a sigil carrier not being allowed to hide or stealth has some merit. This would give the other players the opportunity to kill the sigil carrier or even a good thief to steal it away from him. Then for the thief to be free from harm he would need to be defended by his guild or the like. This would at least give credence to the reason they have double points from sigil capturing.

    There are a few towns that you could probably choke off the thief from getting to the priest if you wanted, others not so much. But the idea that he is stealthing hurts that too. It would be neat to see the thief as a ball carrier with some blockers out in front to punch a hole to the priest, the alter, something like that.

    Hell, what if the thief couldn't run.. Just walk?
     
    #47 Cetric, Oct 16, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  48. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Sage
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    Do you people not guard your altars and priests? With dozens of fields cast and traps set around the priests, it is extremely difficult for a thief to return a sigil much less hold an altar.

    Perhaps it's just my server that chose to use strategy before demanding changed to the whole system.

    As a thief myself, I'd love to work VvV on your servers where you the only defense against thieves is pointing and crying like toddlers.

    As for the non-PvP folks. Adapt or die (In game not for real). You've been spoiled for many years. If Fel had been flooded with PvP as first intended, VvV would seem like s cake walk for you during your errands. You still have the rest of the shard to prance about as all the PvP is now focused on one town at a time.
     
  49. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Somewhat true, but I think a thief would be able to get around defenses to drop an item on an npc easy enough. I dusted off my thief to test the system, and even against an enemy guard and fielding around the priests I had no problem ditching the sigil. I'd rather see about the system being tweaked then just go around it and rack up silver points and win towns though.

    What shard are you seeing all the traps and stuff used? If there's dozens of fields And traps it must be much more actively used then on atl even.
     
    #49 Cetric, Oct 16, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  50. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    there were no guard zones in faction controlled cities before either.... you could not call guards if attacked. so basically the only shard this affects is siege

    i see your point but think the system helps far more people than it hurts.

    i pvm alot in fel, and am very glad this is in towns rather than dungeons, or else my favorite farming spots would most likely be war zones.

    if its a huge problem for someone, just get hiding. dont have to leave the town at every battle. hiding and stealth are perfectly viable options if you are set on using a fel town for whatever reason, or are doing traders quests.
     
    Podolak likes this.