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*PvP needs some Attention*

Discussion in 'UHall' started by CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I Primarily play(ed) UO for pvp for the last 12+ years (not so much before then), and I have recently comeback from a 5-6 month break, (account's were NEVER inactive) and pvp is the same as It was when I left... not good.



    My question - Why are these skills still overpowered, and the only skills you see active in pvp anymore ?

    it's killing the entire pvp aspect of UO because it lacks creativity and everyone you fight is the same.

    Mysticism - Overpowered Defensively : Fix Stoneform + Protection... and cleanse winds needs to be slightly tweaked as well. Imo Remove either the Cure OR the Remove Curse from this spell, and make the spell cast time the same as Magery - Greater Heal (doing this will make cleanse winds a more reliable Mystic heal, that doesn't require you to have magery as a mandatory back-up.

    Throwing - Overpowered Offensively : the Damage OR the Speed are in need of reduction.

    Poisoning - Overpowered Defensively : Remove the passive Cure effect, if you want this USE ORANGE PETALS.

    Archery - <--these were complained about being Overpowered but really weren't too bad... but guess what... they nearly don't exist anymore, because Throwers are in town.

    Melee Weapon Skills - Only used because of Disarm, Deathstrike, Nervestrike, & Poisoning : Fix this please?

    The damage on most of these weapons need slight adjusting upwards, and two handed weapons need to have at least 30% more damage than its one-handed counterpart. (to make up for the loss of consumables & the loss of stats from an off-hand shield.)


    Chivalry - Divine Fury used to restore full stamina, why was this changed ? As a mana-consuming spell it should be as good OR better than a penalty-less Refresh Potion. (making Chivalry more skill level dependable instead of karma dependable was a step in the right direction)


    Consumables : people rely too heavily on these items, and some make pvp extremely annoying. increasing potion weight was not an effective solution IMO.

    Heal potions - Cooldown Fair = balanced.

    Cure potions - no cooldown = *comic bubble* Overpowered! (at least add a cooldown after a successful cure, like apples with their remove curse.)

    Refresh Potions - I can't think of why these are overpowered, because any form of dexer really will not survive if they do not have stamina. reliant I know, but this is fair.

    Enchanted Apples - 30 second cooldown is not triggered unless a remove curse is successful. fair but it still, nearly lessens the use of having chivalry on your template.

    Remove

    1) Weapon Special Moves now require Weapon Skill and Tactics of appropriate skill levels.
    (i.e., 70 in each skill for primary weapon special moves, 90 in each skill for secondary weapon special moves).


    Edit : change the above to require Only weapon skill 70-90+ for primary/secondary as it was pre-publish 46.

    2) Players Can no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability

    If you do not agree with something I have said in this feel free to point out the flaws in it.

    I'm sure there are other things I could suggest, but what kind of things would others like to see added/changed for the better of UOs Pvp?
     
    #1 CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  2. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    If I'm not mistaken, cleansing winds cast is like a 5th circle. It's slightly longer than greater heal.
    However it's still too good even after the adjustment. It is just too good having 3 spells wrapped into one.
    It also makes no sense that the ways to reduce the heal, they are immune to in stoneform. The only solution I see is either making the casting time longer so you can't just carelessly cast 1 spell and it negate SO much, or increase the mana cost like spellweaving amount mana per spell.

    I think every pvper who is being honest knows that the throwing weps need either higher swing speed or lower base damage. Armor ignore damage for no mana is silly.

    Taking the passive poison change away wouldn't bother me, I just like that dp makes it so everyone isn't just 1 cure and good to go. Resources do diminish the fun/skill involved in pvp.

    I think melee is pretty good, but it just doesn't seem like it when you compare it to glaves being 1 handed with double hit spell so you can pot with 8+ tile range and the base damage/speed that goes with it.

    I agree with the consumables but I think you do need some, getting rid of them all together would be a nightmare for those who like to pvp in smaller groups. You do need them if you're the underdog in a numbers game.

    With all the pots, I agree with heal and TR. Cure is a touchy subject it's really difficult to find that perfect solution for a middle ground with them tbh.

    I would like to see at least 45 second on apples, strictly so that necros would get to have all their spells fully utilized since it takes 44 seconds for a strangle to fully tick and it's back end loaded.

    As much as I would like sticky specials with spells I don't see them ever doing that, same with specials with just the fighting skill. As much as I would like to see those. I would be happy with just a revert on the jack of all trades, even that would open up so many templates again. That would be refreshing instead of seeing the same 3 templates every where.
     
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  3. lancelot99

    lancelot99 Guest

    I enjoy Throwing on my PvM Character, he hits hard but that's balaned gainst the short distance you have to keep from your target (to close hard to hit - to far less damage) makes a good balance.
    Be careful they do not change too much and it affects pvm (which the majority play)
     
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  4. swroberts

    swroberts Journeyman
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    I don't agree with any of it. I would recommend adjust your template to take advantage of the benefits of the skills you described. Since the majority of "so called" PVP in this game is actually PK templates on PVM templates, it seems as if your victims of a Champion Spawn raid are escaping.

    All the described overpowered defensive options, should be overpowered with the advantage to the victim. It should be hard to kill another player.

    Changing the described overpowered offensive options, would simply make PVM last longer...and since the majority of gameplay these days is PVM, why make 80% of the populations gameplay more difficult. And I think 80% is way low also...more like 99%.
     
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  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Excerpting this one because I find it illustrative.

    There were, as I recall, complaints from PvPers that Chivalry in general and this spell [had written "skill," now corrected] in particular were over-powered. (I, for one, used to use Divine Fury to escape attempts to crowd me in.)

    Another example could be the thing you say about close-up weapons only being used because of certain special moves. As you say this, others complained that close-up weapons are over-powered, relative to the magery-style skills.

    I do not think it is arguable that the team doesn't pay attention to PvP, especially relative to their comparatively small numbers among those actually playing. (Their numbers on Stratics are far larger in percentage terms.)

    I think this is a case of there being far from universal agreement on what attention to pay, when to pay it, what kind of attention to pay, and who to pay it to.

    The ones the team does not agree with ("agree with" being defined by what the devs do, in this instance) typically assume that no attention is being paid.

    -Galen's player
     
    #5 GalenKnighthawke, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
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  6. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Myst defense is way OP...that is my only beef..and purge magic does do the trick the problem is...I don't want to be a myst Mage if your not going to change it gives us options as mages/dexxers to counter attack it..cleansing winds is a whole other beast..that spell is ridiculous in so many ways
     
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  7. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Sadly this thread is going to be closed just when the ideas start flowing, it always seems to happen. It shocks me that the near constant discussion of PvP and what can be done to help this area of the game is talked about so often yet nothing productive seems to be done about it.

    I hope that everyone can keep the good ideas and thoughts going. With luck the haters won't come in and dirty yet another thread asking for it to be closed but we shall see. For those that have the power to squash another thread please leave it be, the talk here drives more content than most any other discussion.
     
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  8. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    keep it civil, don't resort to personal attacks and the thread will stay open. Simple really.
     
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  9. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What generally happens is that discussion becomes polarized. What may have started as a benign, thoughtful and constructive conversation stalls as one or another begins to push the boundaries to promote the agenda of choice. It moved from discussing ideas to attacking ideas and dismissing the person behind the ideas.

    When a dissuasion becomes a chase on a merry go round that really goes nowhere, it becomes useless as the only folks still reading at that time are the ones with an agenda to trumpet.

    So help us all out, say your piece, discuss your ideas and keep your criticism constructive and you need not worry for this thread.
     
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  10. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Knock it off. I am losing patience with personal snipes and trollish behavior... I left my sense of humor in my other pants.
     
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  11. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Throwing -> I think that damage everywhere else needs to be raised (especially on 2H melee weapons).
    Mysticism -> CW is a 6th circle spell. May have to increase the curse/poison effect removal cost, and the split percentages when hitting multiple targets.
    Heal Potions -> Change Cooldown to 30 seconds. If you have to drink one more often than that, you are either doing something wrong or you are in a situation where you should die.
    Poisoning -> I like where it is at now. I wouldn't put a cooldown on curing in, without putting in a cooldown on being re-poisoned. Combining Cure Pot weight increase which is a poison buff, with petal effect breaking (another poison buff) provided a boost to poisoning, slightly offset by the passive curing effect (This effect does not prevent repoisoning, diminishes quickly over time, and does NOT take effect when curing with potions). Maybe bump the passive effect.
    Archery -> Scale damage towards throwing.
    Refresh potions-> Need a bit of work. Stamina in Fel/PvP is a major consideration. Outside of fel, not so much.
    Apples -> 60 Sec cooldown on success
    Chiv -> Scale Holy Light Damage + SDI support for the spell. Divine fury is fine.
    Special Moves->
    Disarm : Add difficulty base, and passive resistance OR lower cooldown on repeated disarms. (Disam War is the stupidest thing in Dexer PvP)
    Mortal : Lower duration on repeated mortal strikes
    Weapon Specials/Tactics -> Leave it alone.
    Special Move + Spell Casting -> Yep I miss it, but leave it out.
    Taming -> No autolog on pets in combat with players. (PvM completely fine).
    Protection -> Should prevent interruption from a certain amount of damage depending on magery/scribe similar to magic reflect. At which point it needs to recharge.

    Bene Acts -> performing beneficial acts on a player while they are in combat with another player flags you to that player with the same legality as the player you helped. (ie. If the player you helped attacked a gray and that gray goes blue, you will be flagged ONLY to that formerly gray player. If you heal a criminal who is flagged for attacking an innocent, you will be criminal flagged as an agressor to that innocent. Apply this to factions as well)

    Wishfuls:
    Agressing from inside a house will eject the agressor from the house.
    Tamers can force pet to use specials (with cooldown)
    Exploding potions can blow up other exploding potions (ah the fun old days)
     
    #11 Logrus, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  12. Specialshoes

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    Some of this sounds pretty cool. Who do we have to kill to get you back on the team?
     
  13. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Taking advantage of overpowered skills doesn't change the fact that it makes the other skills and numerous templates created with them very ineffective. why would someone want to play a tank-mage, when everyone is competing for the same reward - overpowered = easier wins thus making pvp dull and boring.

    This is precisely what I'm getting at. a player should be hard to kill. But it should be based more on player skill/awareness, and not completely on the select few skills that are better than others. (i.e. Mysticisms heal spell & stone-form protection. most other templates are about equal as far as survivability goes. and unless you've played AS and Against some of these templates there's no way to judge it.

    I agree with this, and it would infact make pvm last longer (for throwers), but obviously some things in pvm would need some adjustments as well...
    This is where a favorable RNG/Doom system would come in for drop-rates. time-consuming yes, but less likely to go without a reward.

    Might I also add, most things people farm come from trammel rule-set facets as well. which makes it not controllable thus Also making it more subject to being scripted and farmed. this is good and bad.


    Sampires are the majority of the pvm templates around right now and have been for quite a while. so this is in no need of changing either I suppose too right ? Though I do not think making chivalry and necromancy not work together, would be a truly effective solution, because doing this will have removed the "sampire" as a viable template.

    I don't think sampires should be nerfed directly, but as of now it's the most efficient and easiest template that allows farming to be scripted, With the dungeon revamps in the process a "fix" has already made an appearance in high seas bosses & shame, (corrupted life leech). This will no-doubt make sampires still effective, without ruining them, allowing other templates to be a more competitive option. There are other monster abilities that play a big roll in making these less likely to be afk farmed/scripted as well that are not so "sampire-specific".
     
    #13 CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  14. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Scaling weapons upwards to the caliber of throwing would balance them among other "Dexer" types, sure, but would certainly make them overpowered against all casters.

    First, do you have many (or any) pvp characters without poisoning?
    Secondly, there would be no cooldown on curing it, unless a persons template is made to have only one source of curing, and it happens to be Cure Potions only, this is one reason I feel this really needs to be changed. when a person cures poison with a cure potion, there is no reason to bother having a skill that has it's own ability to cure. (chivalry, Mysticism, Magery, Healing etc) if you don't have any skill points invested in something to cure/heal yourself. you shouldn't have power over templates that do.

    There's no need to have a "cool-down on being re-poisoned Imo, This is what Resisting Spells is for, it's a chance to NOT get poisoned, via spell. to avoid poison from a dexer, move away from them, they have a chance to miss you anyway... that's fair no?

    I also believe Potions were the main reason Poisoning was "improved" the last time, The thing is, Poisoing has been buffed the same exact way previous to the last changes (with the exception of the orange petal-free cure). these changes only make potions more reliant.

    adding a cooldown to cure potions would only make one who relies on them to survive spend their resources more wisely instead of "Oh I'm poisoned, *push cure pot macro*, ahh all better..." <-- one problem, a cooldown will solve.


    I completely agree with these and I would certainly like to see them implemented. =D


    As you know, I don't agree on this, just because of the amount of viable character builds that were made completely ineffective by these changes. (mostly the specials + spell casting).
    The LMC bonus for having a total skill value, would remain in effect. thus keeping tactics as a worthy skill.
    Also if necessary *IF* the tactics happened to change, tactics should maybe grant a higher bonus to damage. as another way to make tactics worth having in-place of other offensive/defensive skills.

    This is interesting and I have read something similar to this as well, This could work.

    One could only dream for this. as I mostly like playing Solo, or in a very small 2-5 person group. I can totally relate to this. *feels tingly, just thinking about it*

    Your "Wishfuls" are wishfuls of mine as well =], except for the explosion potions of course.
     
    #14 CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  15. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Covenant X - You mentioned tactics in the LMC bonus, I assume you're talking about the 300 combat points?

    If that's the case tactics doesn't factor in to the combat point change, which is kind of absurd, and neither does anatomy. Having those skills added to the list would make it easier to obtain 300 combat points and be able to play a wide variety of templates instead of ninjas and throwers.

    Can a dev explain why tactics, anatomy, and healing are not on the list for skills to achieve the 300 combat points? You're pigeon holed into a ninja, a bushido char(which no one uses so they can use ninjitsu to run away if dismounted) or a thrower.

    Also it was mentioned above that archery should have its damaged raised. I have to disagree. While I would like to see things balanced, I think it makes more sense to lower the base damage a little on 1 thing, rather than raise it on everything. As mentioned earlier I don't think regular hits should hit for the same as armor ignore with no mana cost. With double hit spells on a lot of things this is already pretty much the case. We don't need moving shots for 40, unless I can cast on the run on my mage chars, in which case I'd be for that. But a change like that just makes people play one hit wonder dexers. I'm guilty of it back in the day when it was out of control I certainly used perfection on players and would elven bow crit hit for over 150. It's what happens when things don't get fixed for so long. I think that throwing needs to be toned down a little, but also other weps need to be relooked at so they aren't so worthless.
     
  16. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Are these templates/skills/spells/tacticts primarley used in PVP or PvM?

    How will these changes affect others play style?

    What happened to Areans, I thought they were suppose to be the ultimate for PvPers, 2 walk in one walks out. If they are broken how can UO fix these so PvPers will use them or are they just tottaly useless?
     
  17. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    @Covenant X -RE Poison
    I still have an old school approach to UO characters and I think the game roots in skill are very important. That being said, I believe that EVERY character involved in combat should be required to have some skill based method to heal themselves in order to survive. Consumables should be a supplement to characters survivability.
    Poisoning is a 2 pronged attack. It prevents healing, and it deals damage. Even lesser poison, which can be applied with JOAT skill, prevents healing. Using a plain dagger you can keep someone poisoned indefinitely. Even though the damage may be negligible they are effectively unable to recover from the damage they are being hit with.
    There are 2 methods to get rid of poison, either by skill or consumable.
    Chivalry, Magery, Mysticism(Stone or CW), Ninja Form, Necro Form, or Healing Skill.
    The healing stone provides the fastest method to cure poison. Drawbacks are it is skill based not 100% success, limited uses, and it takes 3-5 seconds to replenish by summoning
    Chivalry is the second fastest means to curing poison, and with 4/6 it is extremely hard to interrupt. Drawbacks , it is skill based and if the caster has magery/mysticism the cast speed drops to ~1-~1.5 seconds
    Magery cure spell will not remove Deadly or Lethal poison. Takes ~1-1.5 seconds to cast
    Magery Arch Cure Takes 1.5-2 seconds to cast to remove deadly or lethal
    Mysticism Stone Form or CW take approximately ~2 seconds to cast
    Bandages Require 2 Skills, and Take 2-4 seconds to take effect.

    +
    Minimum Swing time is 1.25 seconds
    Cast time is ~1.5-2 seconds
    Shuriken ~3-4 seconds
    Snake Arrow ~2 Seconds
    +
    Lesser Poison -> 2 sec/First Round
    Deadly/Lethal -> 3-5 sec First Round
    +
    If you ONLY use poison, and it is cured using a skill based method as soon as it is applied, it really isn't that hard to keep your target poisoned regardless if you play Dexer or Mage.

    The reason I indicate the time to the first round of poison damage, is because the passive poison resistance effect only gets calculated when the poison rounds hit. So if you poison someone and they are relying on their passive resistance, they are guaranteed to remain poisoned at least until the first round. (Not sure with the last bump, but this passive resistance capped out at 18% or thereabouts which is less than a 1 in 5 chance that they resist it on the first round)

    If a poison is removed by petals or potions, that whole passive resistance gets reset to 0 (unless they actually have the poisoning skill). So even if they cured using a skill, got re-poisoned immediately and drank a pot. It is set back to 0.
    This is purely a benefit to skill based curing, and doesnt help consumables.
    Since potions were scaled, and weight increased. this overall increases the effectiveness of Poison.
    I believe that poison is effective now, and is at a reasonable balance point, given the history of being completely OP, or completely useless. The fact that poisoning skill on a PvP template, is neither a must, nor a waste indicates that it is not completely askew.

    I feel any cooldown on a player being poisoned, will make poison useless. By the same token, any cooldown on curing, makes poison OP, unless All skill based cure methods were reduced in timeframe so as to be uninterruptible.

    Another option could be to revert poison to WAAAAAAAY back when it only did damage, and you could still heal through it. Then I'd be fully supportive of a cooldown on cure pots.

    =============
    Back to topic.

    Special Moves and Spell casting.
    Being as honest as I can, on this one, it really only hurt the XP/Flame strike/ AI combo all in one swoop. (Substitute the AI for whatever other special you prefer) Or the Nox + bleed combo.
    With sufficient practice a player can still do well with a tactics mage template.

    ==================

    I think in general, player survivability has increased dramatically in the game, and damage output (PvP wise) especially on the melee fronts has been left behind. So I think all damage should be raised and where throwing is at now is a good point to get the rest to.
    I also think spell damage could do with a bit of raising, but more similar to "focused" templates.

    Of a more unpopular nature I'd like to switch weapon procs to 2 types, charged, and channeled and make them all 100%. You have a lighting weapon it has max of 10 charges, that recover over time , you can enable it and it procs on every time you hit and costs a charge.
    For a channeled weapon it procs 100% of the time, when you have it enabled but costs Mana to fire the spell effect (Not subject to LMC).
    I think that would make it more tactical in nature since the player can control exactly when they want to get the most bang for their buck.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I would like to see anatomy added to the Lower Mana requirement for special moves since it does add damage, I think it would be a reasonable thing to do.
    Though I think in UO special moves would be better if they were game changing tactics in combat, than constantly spammed. But thats a whole different ballgame.

    Hit Lower Defense -> Passive resistance similar to disarm. (Add more skill based lowering defense options).
     
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  18. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    I remember running around with 59 healing so I could heal through poison.
     
  19. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    No. The reason those two were changed, is because Mages were abusing the hell out of it, and killing people within the span of a second. Ever see those Mage/Archers that would Curse, Exp+FS+AI people? They'd redline people in the span of a second, then finish them with a Fireball/Lightning, or Moving Shot. Now imagine that same combo, with a Hit Lightning/Hit Velocity Composite Longbow. That combo is guaranteed to either redline or kill you. If they removed the Tact requirement on specials as well, those Mage/Archers could drop Tact for Mysticism, and hit you with a Spell Plague beforehand too. Not to mention they could trigger Bombard as well. Guaranteed death within the span of a heartbeat.

    They do need to give Mages/Warriors a way to "purge" buffs off of targets as well though. One way, would be to make the 6th level Dispel spell, and Hit Dispel, attempt to purge a buff off of a non-summoned target, with the difficulty based on the users Magery or Focus. Give Hit Dispel a 5 sec CD between procs.

    Edit: Lol, just saw Logrus' post about it. He hit it spot on. The Charged/Channeled focus to Hit Effects sounds awesome. I wish Wands could regain their charges over time and not require a cast time. Would be really good for that Artifact Wand. I still remember the oldschool "Cleric" template that was a Macer with Eval, so he could melee with a wand and blast off Lightnings.

    They seriously do need to make Human JoAT count towards the Special Move Mana Reduction though. Without that, Human Warriors are inferior to Elves in terms of Mana effectiveness, and flat out inferior to Gargoyle Warriors in all aspects, even Mana, considering Gargoyle's get +2 MR as a racial.
     
    #19 PlayerSkillFTW, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Everything I want Logrus already said lol.
     
  21. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    This was due to another issue (fixed in the same exact publish... pub 46- Fixed an issue that allowed special moves to automatically hit when a spell landed.
    this didn't only cause "Special Moves" to hit, it caused the "Weapon" to hit regardless of a special being toggled or not, which was pretty overpowered.


    One thing that would come back, and it's negative would be the Wall of stone + stun +2nd wall of stone to cross-field players in. there are trapped boxes in game and most players will not play without them. that being said, stun via weapons have a cooldown, in which the target stunned cannot be stunned for about 10 seconds? (could be wrong on the exact time, I thought it was 12 seconds) but there is infact a cooldown.

    currently the only stun in the game (pvp) you cannot hit yourself to get out of, is from Mysticism's - Bombard, and it's only a Chance to stun.
     
  22. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I was unaware of tactics and anatomy not factored into the the base lmc bonus of 300.0 combat point bonus. I too would also like to hear from the Devs on your question. Why these skills are not providing this bonus?

    One change I really do like, that has happened in pvp, was the introduction of "Focused Spec"

    While this is good and sort of brings back the "pure mage". there are some skills on the list that remove the bonus of being a pure mage, even though you really couldn't gain the skills full potential benefit without having another Casting school skill - i.e. Focus - without Mysticism, or Spiritspeak without Necromancy minimum skill. while other skills, such as Scribe & Poisoning allow a pure mage to keep all the benefits of the increased SDI cap (30%-40%/scribe).

    Also, It would be cool to see something along the lines of a "Focused Spec" for pure dexers, as well.
     
  23. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    This was due to another issue (fixed in the same exact publish... pub 46- Fixed an issue that allowed special moves to automatically hit when a spell landed.
    this didn't only cause "Special Moves" to hit, it caused the "Weapon" to hit regardless of a special being toggled or not, which was pretty overpowered.

    Edit: This just so happened to be, before Armor Ignore had a damage cap of 35. so It really would not be anywhere near as "overpowered" as you might think.
    Also this sounds like a pure benefit to mages, allowing people to toggle specs while casting, not many think of the dexer side, you don't see many (if any) casting/dexers in Pvp nowadays. with this reverted,
    you more likely would see them.

    One thing that would come back, and it's negative would be the Wall of stone + stun +2nd wall of stone to cross-field players in. there are trapped boxes in game and most players will not play without them. that being said, stun via weapons have a cooldown, in which the target stunned cannot be stunned for about 10 seconds? (could be wrong on the exact time, I thought it was 12 seconds) but there is infact a cooldown.

    currently the only stun in the game (pvp) you cannot hit yourself to get out of, is from Mysticism's - Bombard, and it's only a Chance to stun.

    Oops, double post see 2up.
     
    #23 CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  24. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Logrus's ideas are interesting. He almost lost me, though, with his first: Raising damage on two-handed weapons. These weapons are used more often than is credited, they just aren't used as often in PvP as they are in more popular aspects of the game. Remember that as near as I can tell speed has typically been somewhat more important in PvP than it has in PvM. While this hasn't always been the case (Axe of the Heavens + Pain Spike; halberd-wielding PKs; Planesword-wielding mage PvPers), it has been the case typically.

    For example I remember someone arguing, just before AoS, that the katana was the only weapon worth using in PvP. (Such was also argued many years before, btw.) We were told at the time that the solution to the unbalanced katana would be the great balance that AoS would bring to weapons.

    Ideas to change things in PvP should consider the potential ripple effect. Two-handed weapons are already in wide use in PvM and I'd hate to make them own so hard that they end up killing one-handed weapons there....Especially think I suspect that, sooner or later, PvP will always come back to the speed.

    For a recent example, I see way less Planeswords than I did not too long ago. Instead, the bokuto appears to have made a comeback as the PvP mage weapon of choice.

    What it comes down to is that as a general rule we players want everything other than our own stuff nerfed. This is not exclusive to PvP.

    -Galen's player
     
    #24 GalenKnighthawke, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
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  25. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Bandages, not only have a chance to cure, they still heal if the cure is successful. Edit: was researching the specific publish *remembered reading about it*).

    + For healers with 80 skill or greater in Healing and Anatomy, at half the Heal Duration for self heals, healing will attempt to remove poison and bleed effects. This will reduce the amount healed when the heal is finished its normal duration.

    The Arenas are fine, and people use them pretty often, they would be used alot more widely if you could somehow be paired up with/against someone from another shard. This is also more of a "Dueling" setting.
    and most people prefer "field" pvp, in which they can play with their friends/guildies.
     
    #25 CovenantX, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  26. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Those aren't Stuns, they're Paralyzes. Paralyze breaks on damage, Stuns don't. The only stun in game that a player has access to at this point, is the random stun from Bombard. During ML Beta, the Nerve Strike special was able to stun, but was changed to Paralyze instead (Reptalons had Nerve Strike as a special too in ML Beta, but were nerfed to Paralyzing Blow). Tinkered Golems when they first came out were able to Stun as well, but they removed that ability from them. "Wild" Golems can still do it, it's called a "Colossal Blow".
    Currently, weapon Paralyze has diminishing returns, but the Paralyze spell itself doesn't.
     
    #26 PlayerSkillFTW, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  27. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    I don't ever the katana being the be all end all. I always liked two handed swords for the conc blow that cut the persons mana in half.

    Also I was always a fan of quarter staffs.

    The things people are complaining about though are Halberd for example. It's like a 4+ second swing and was the king of pvp, and now you never see anyone use them ever. Some specials have been changed to the point where it ruins a lot of weapons. Concussion is one of them, it's pretty much worthless in pvp which made the halberd even worse than it already was..slow, not balanced, two handed, with bad specials.

    As far as planeswords go, people got rid of them because you can craft mage weps now that are -15 instead of 20 and they use any wooden wep so they can get the +2 hp regen enhanced on them.
     
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  28. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    B4 this could be done/allowed UO would have to figure out a way that items and gold could not be passed on to other players. They should also allow Group v Group in the Areans then too.

    So this is Group v Group not Player v Player. If Group A is using these Tactics then why doesn't Group B use the same Tactics. Finding ways to increase your surivorabilty/damage output should be a good thing and you would think that everybody would want to do this hoping that the other Group would make a mistake B4 your Group does, thus allowing your Group to swoop in for the kill.
     
  29. slayer888

    slayer888 Lore Keeper
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    My suggestion of making better UO PVPs... hmmm in terms of balance or anything, I will not try to comment it. But in terms of fun, I have only one sentence.

    "Appoint me as the faction designer"
     
  30. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Slayer no one is saying archery can't reach the same speeds as throwing. The argument is that it's weapons with higher base damage, and yet lower base swing speeds. So you can achieve much higher damage at capped speed with ease. On top of the fact that it's one handed(not using balanced as a mod) double hit spell, ect. You give up nothing on these weps. With archery you have 1% damage increase if you go with double hit spell. On garg weps you have high everything and you don't give up anything. It's not exactly balanced in the world of dexer pvp.
     
  31. Daelomin

    Daelomin Journeyman
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    You are spot on... some new ideas that I think will draw some people back, as well as minor tweaks to make it more balanced....
    By reading your points - I know you PvP most of your time in UO... I hope the devs do consider all of this.
     
  32. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    slayer888 . How is stoneform + protection overpowered lol? I am gonna calulcate the rate for you in this way based on my actual experience and 120 resisting with stoneform + protection:-
    10 as highest
    a.) Offense - 2
    b.) Defense - 7 (same numbers), 10 (solo), 6 (outnumbered)
    c.) Support - 6
    d.) Mobile - 1

    I should have probably changed this to be Stone form+Protection+Cleanse Winds : but obviously people in SF/Prot won't stand there and heal with G-heal. because mortal strike is the only thing that could potentially stop them from healing. Anyway...

    Stone form + Protection is overpowered because the person in stoneform, cannot be poisoned or cursed. they get 75 resist to all 80 energy (if elf) and the only possible way to stop one in stoneform + protection is mortal strike, (also removed by cleanse winds). Otherwise you need to Purge (Which requires you to be a mystic).

    In short Mysticism is Overpowered because its only true weakness is another mystic. <-- This is necessary change that is very long overdue IMO.


    Poisoning - Overpowered Defensively : Remove the passive Cure effect, if you want this USE ORANGE PETALS.

    * Not positive about this as more testing would have to be done (since many of my opponents carry NS DS rather than poison templates. But as far as I know, the tick in rate of the passive cure seems not so frequent


    Now I'm going to ask some questions...

    1) How is stoneform + protection not overpowered ?

    *1) Weapon Special Moves now require Weapon Skill and Tactics of appropriate skill levels.
    (i.e., 70 in each skill for primary weapon special moves, 90 in each skill for secondary weapon special moves).

    *Edit : change the above to require Only weapon skill 70-90+ for primary/secondary as it was pre-publish 46.

    2) Players Can no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability

    *Disagree. This will enough to make overpowered templates available again which rejects all of your above request.

    2) Which templates will come back that were overpowered at that point exactly?
     
    #32 CovenantX, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  33. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    The overpowered template discussion has been in effect since 97..there will always be a flavor of the week template..from mages- LJ Axers- Axer necros- Stam macers - necro mages - bush archers - nox mages - Myst mages ..let the battle continue
     
  34. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Where are these templates/skills/spells/tactics/items being used?
    I see a lot of these used at events to assist the group as a whole to survive. I can’t say for sure about the items but I see no reason why they would not be used. Yes there are many other templates/tactics/chars there but we will stick to what the OP wants adjusted.
    I am sure a lot of this could also be used in Doom, the Abyss, Ilshenar, Covetous (Cora), Champ Spawns, basically anywhere a Group would go to fight a Boss that drops anything worth getting. Isn’t the idea at these to increase your groups’ ability to stay alive and to maximize your damage output.

    The OP stated this has more to do with and I quote
    So if this is about a group of fighter getting together to fight another group of fighters wouldn’t you also what to increase your group’s ability to stay alive and to maximize your damage output.

    IMHO I don’t think this is about a "Dueling" setting between 2 groups that want to have a “field” pvp at all. I think it is more about a group that has found a viable templates/skills/spells/tactics/items combination, through trial and error, way to survive doing champ spawns and are getting away with all the goodies.

    I hope the DEVs read this entire thread very carefully and understand the templates/skills/spells/tactics/item adjustment the OP is asking for and IMHO the real reason for these adjustments.

    I am 200% against any of these adjustment being made because IMHO this is not about PvP balance it is about a group being able to survive champ spawn raiders.
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Axer necros was the one I remember most when special moves were introduced. Pain strike + double strike, lethal combination before they tweaked it.
     
    #35 Viper09, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  36. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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  37. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Double strike - back then - if the first hit landed you were guaranteed the 2nd hit to land (now fixed), you also need to take into consideration back then, very few people had "Decent" armor sets.
    This was also affected by the spell-causing a weapon to hit 100% of the time. (now fixed as well).

    I never considered this overpowered, I also never played a "double strike-necro-dexer". Lethal yes, but overpowered? hardly.
     
  38. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    At aos launch and Axer necro with the axe of heavens..would be an insta kill double hit pain spike with a opponent all 70s..it was way OP that's why it was nerfed
     
  39. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I would have to disagree with you. When this template was first used during the very early stages it was very overpowered, hence it being tweaked. There was nearly no defense against this combo and pain strike took a significantly more amount of life away at launch.
     
  40. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    key words (At the AoS Launch), feel like going to Test, and trying it out with the same equipment?

    You can still do painspike+double strike, and it won't even half the hp (even if both hits landed on double strike) of most people today?
    how would it be overpowered if people were able to do faster as pre-pub 46?
     
  41. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    painspike was nerfed?, or in-directly nerfed because most players now have Resisting spells? this is NOT the same thing.
     
  42. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Yes it was nerfed, quite a bit in fact. I don't remember the specific of how it was nerfed though so I wont attempt to guess at what the changes were. Someone with a better memory than I will be able to tell you specifically I'm sure. But no, it didn't have to do people suddenly deciding to add resist to their templates.
    Double strike was also nerfed too. Was more powerful in the beginning.

    Overall point is that certain templates have their time in the sun for a time before there is a shift.
     
    #42 Viper09, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  43. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Are you sure, you're not confusing Poison Strike with Painspike? because Poison strike was at one point more overpowered than some things right now, and has been addressed.


    You say double strike was nerfed, so allowing these builds to come back and be an actual useful character in pvp, would make them overpowered how?
     
  44. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    It was nerfed, and for good reason. Just like now, if you have resist it reduces the damage. now the lowest you'll through at 110+ ss is an 18 damage pain spike and up to 30 if someone doesn't have resist. When it was first introduced the lowest it would hit for was 30 and highest was 42. Still a 12 damage difference like today, but the base was higher.

    When AoS a lot of people dumped their resist so the few of us who were playing necros were cutting through people with ease, and if you were a dexer to boot...it was just absurd.

    But as you said I remember most people didn't know that you needed armor since they were use to years of no armor and they were getting double strikes hit on them for about 90 dmg + pain spike..back when no one had HPI ect so it was an insta death.
     
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  45. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I still don't see how bringing these builds back would be overpowering, because of the other adjustments that made what once Was overpowered be balanced in todays Pvp.
     
  46. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    I don't think it would be over powered. So many changes have been made that people can't be killed in one by those old tactics. Also back then people had like 103hp. Now a lot of people are close to 150 even after curse. Not to mention hpr, damage eaters, ep. There are so many things that weren't on every players suit back then that are common now a days.
     
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  47. slayer888

    slayer888 Lore Keeper
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    As I have stated about stoneform + protection, there is its pros and cons into it. If you look at the whole picture, yes it can't be killed 1 v 1 honestly. But you also can't kill someone 1 v 1 in a stoneform?

    Moreover, in open area pvp (which happens most of my time in my shard or asuka), there is no ppl that will be running on stone form in t2a or serpent holds and get ganked. This template is viable and perfectly in DEFENSE in 1 v 1 or 1 v 2, but that is basically it. That's why I have given the rating up on above. I have tested this template under the folowing:-

    stone form
    75 resist + 80 energy
    120 resisting
    protection on
    Gift of renewal on
    Attunement on

    in this situation my defense is uber vs 1 v 1 immortal, even 1 v 2, but my offense... BAHHH, I could only bola in support to be very honestly.

    This type of character is not suppose to be used in ALL type of situations.

    As for the overpowered comment, it was to disagree about the ONLY weapon skill needed for performing special moves.
     
    #47 slayer888, Sep 29, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
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  48. slayer888

    slayer888 Lore Keeper
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    Actually, my point is I have played both archer and gargyole and by saying gargyole have the upper hand on killing people or overpowered in killing people is really not all the time accurate.

    #1. Archer have a longer range overall up to 10 tiles and the damage is more stable than the gargyole throwing weapon
    #2. Composite bow or any kind of bows could reforge upwards to 50 ssi, thus making it extremely easy to max out the SSI to 60, whereas gargyole max SSI would most likely be only at around 45 to 50.
    #3. Gargyole movement disadvantage is that when it shoved 1 person, and you are stump upon another object,person,npc, you will seems to be flying still, making your reaction slowed by little bit if compared to human on horse (whereas the screen won't show as rubberbanding) This will delay the chasing for gargyole overall, unless you could control a gargyole character perfectly ALL of the time which won't be the case.
    #4. the special moves for both weapons are actually different.
    Cyclone = para + moving shot (this gets more of an advantage in a ganking situation)
    Composite bow = armor ignore + moving shot (this gets more of an advantage in terms of damage and killing in solos especially vs mages)

    armor ignore nets you 35 damage min. (not counting velocity and lighting) , cyclone never can have 35 base damage unless that newbie is not wearing armor.

    #5. Within different range, gargyole are performing different numbers of damage (which actually very dependable on your distance with your target), the perfect tiles aren't so easily to be reached 100% of the time. Thus there are some swings you will not be dealing the appropriate range damage as per composite bow would
     
  49. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    What on earth are you talking about? lol
    I'm not saying anything at all about allowing these builds to come back, I was simply commenting on how I remember this template being the "flavor of the time" and people complaining about it being overpowered. Everything that followed was just me responding to you about how this template was just tweaked to the point of people picking some other template.

    My underlining point was in reference to cazador, there is always some overpowered template and that template always gets replaced over time.

    And yes, I am damn sure I am not confusing anything, stop asking, lol.
     
    #49 Viper09, Sep 29, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  50. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Gift of Renewal & Attunement even without stone-form make one near temporarily invulnerable in a 1 v 1 situation. it can wear off, and has quite a cooldown on it. however, a mystic can Purge this, and Gift of Renewal & Attunement still remain on cooldown.

    if you can't kill someone while you're in stone-form + protection it's because they run. if they stayed on screen the whole time. they wouldn't have a chance. or no one would die... which is just one problem. unless they are a mystic to purge.

    I'm not factoring in Attunement and Gift of Renewal, they require another skill. and they're fine imo. and players typically have Spellweaving (pvp) for Pixies, Essence of Wind & Thunderstorm.

    Point being you either play a mystic mage, and are pretty much unkillable if you resort to stoneform protection. regardless of what your other skills are. (this is why it's overpowered)

    Poisoning, taking only 100 skill points, easily combined with other skills, gives you much more benefit Offensively AND Defensively than other skills. for an example I'll say, Parry - 0-120 cap, only usable against Melee/ranged weapon attacks, for 120 skill pionts. (no protection from casters Whatsoever, unless its combined with Bushido- making it take potentially 240.0 skill points.)

    Does no one think Poisoning has enough offensive power, to where it really needs to have this defensive mechanic as well ?

    The only part of poisoning I don't agree with is the Orange petal effect, because it's too much of a game-changer when you play against any template that has poisoning and you don't.
    Poison should be hard to cure, and it is more often than not, from a DEXER perspective anyway...

    now if you're a non-nox-mage fighting someone with poisoning, people are able to just cast healing spells without bothering with cure, because you simply cannot keep a target poisoned unless you yourself have poisoning as well.

    Maybe this isn't working as intended (could only hope, maybe it'll get fixed), but it sure has been quite overpowered since it has been introduced.