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PvP Questions for Draconi

Discussion in 'UHall' started by o2bavr6, Sep 13, 2008.

  1. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Draconi I was wondering what the possiblities of implementing some of these proposed changes to PvP.

    If not, could you please explain why they cant?

    Tamers pets: Dont reduce the damage they do, but require the tamer to have the Vet skill to either heal, cure or res the pet (res already does). Also if they don't have the Vet skill, the pet should not be able to do special attack moves.

    Tamers: If they sick a pet on someone making it an aggressor, they should not be able to summon it back, like logging out (this is like recalling as an agressor, it cant be done). It should have to adhear to the flee rules like players.

    Trapped boxes: Is there anyway you can remove trapped boxes from the game to stop people from not having to have magic resist, thus abling them to have uber templates?

    Bolas: Can the use of bolas be tied to having to have a skill to use them, ala special moves?

    Earthquake: Can earthquake be changed so it dismounts people as well as the damage it does? The closer the person the more chance it will dismount you, the farther the person the less chance it will dismount you. No limit to the amount of people it can dismount. Maybe for this to apply the mage should have to have Inscription.

    Dread Steeds: When you paralyze one and then the owner mounts it, he can ride away even though the mount is under the paralyze spell.

    Healing: Is there a specific reason that healing can not be disrupted completely like mage healing can?

    Greater Cure pots: Is there a reason that there is no timer to the use of greater cure pots like heal pots?

    Pots: how about tying the use of pots to alchemy, meaning if you dont have the skill you cant use them at all, instead of just getting a bit of a bonus when using them.

    Evil Omen: Can evil omen be tied to magic resist, meaning the higher the magic resist the less effect it has.

    Evil Omen: can the spell casting time be increased for it?

    Chivalry: Can the Chiv spells be changed to require more than 80 skill points to use things like remove curse. Why is it that every other skill requries higher points to succeed at their use but Chiv doesnt? Hence no one has more than 80 skill points invested into it, in PvP.

    Magery: Reactive Armor, can it be changed slightly to act like it used to pre-AoS, to where it refleceted damage back to the melee'r.

    Spellweaing: jsut about every spell needs its casting time reduced, and the delay between recasting certain spells needs to be reduced.

    Spellweaving: Etheral Voyage should be able to be cast while spawn is around. Not being able to makes it almost completely useless.

    Spellweaving: Word of Death is supposed to have a chance of killing it's target if they are below ( I think ) 25% health. It rarely kills someone with 20 hit points or less.

    I would like to see balance in the game in regards to PvP and currently there just is not that much balance.
     
  2. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    id like to see magic reflection do what it used to do....
     
  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    These above I'd like to see addressed. Trapped boxes should be fixed, but only after Evil Omen is. I typically only use my trapped box when Evil Omen is combined with Para, which, since Evil Omen is not tied into resist, is a pain in the arse. I always find the PK groups using this combo: Evil Omen, Para, x-field.

    Isn't healing kind of affected when you are being hit, though? Every hit should technically lower the amount of damage that is heal, is that still the way it is?

    I don't know about Earthquake dismounting everyone, but I do think there should be something along the lines of like a couple second stun or something, maybe lower defense temporarily. But, it should also hit everyone, regardless of guild, alliance, red, or blue status.

    I know Chivalry has lower requirements for spells, but it also requires high karma for most spells to work effectively. If you have low karma, remove curse will not work very well as opposed to high karma, which works will make it work very well.

    As for magery, there are a lot of spells that don't really work the way they use to since Pre-Aos. Arch-protection I think is one. Magic reflect and reactive armor don't really seem to do much anymore. At least not anything like they use to. Magic reflect should really reflect magic like it is suppose to.
     
  4. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Hmm, I see where you are going with this, and it isn't totally bad, but it would have serious ramifications for PvM hunting parties where often a mage helps with the pets. I would be more inclined to say that unless you have Vet, your heal and cure spells should be less effective - maybe by 50% ?

    I agree with this, but it would have to be very specific - because that bit of code was added to protect the pets of players who lose con. Perhaps the pet could auto-log, but upon re-logging it returns to the same spot it was logged out at? Or, that it only be tied to the agressor flag (not the flee flag, the "grey" timer that also applies to reds).

    Mixed feelings on this. I have resist on all my PvP chars, but they are a bit handy even when you have resist. Maybe making them a one-use thing? Once the trap goes off, it would have to be re-trapped. This makes sense, anyway. If the dart is embedded in my flesh, how does it get back in the box without me re-trapping it??

    Again, mixed feelings on this. Maybe they could be tied to several skills ... that is, you have to have at least 50 tactics OR eval (or THROWING) to use them?

    This is an interesting concept, but not sure it really ties into the rest of your post/suggestions ... would rather see you bring this suggestion up in a different thread.

    This has GOT to be a bug. Does it work this way with other ridables? If not then lets report report report, e-mail Messana, etc. If it DOES work this way with other ridables, then ya, lets see this changed.

    Hmmm ... mixed feelings here, too. If it were to be fully disruptable, then perhaps the self-bandage timer cap should be reduced to being the same as G'heal at 2/6 (not sure what the cast time is there), to make them both be on equal ground.

    SOOOO agreed! Put a timer on G'Cure pots.

    Mixed. Maybe all GREATER pots should require alchemy or at least SOME alchemy? Lesser pots should be available to all. Poison pots would be the exception - their use is tied to poisoning already and should not be also tied to alchemy.

    Agreed, and in fact, I suggested the same. It should be like Blood Oath is now - the higher your resist skill is, the less it lowers your resist when it hits.

    Agreed. At 2/6 it can be cast virtually on the run. I assume that at 4/6 it is literally on the run. It doesnt need as long a timer as FS, but it needs to be slower than a mini-heal as well.

    Agreed (coming from someone who uses 70 Chiv). The ability to cast the spell should be based on the skill alone, and the spells really need to be re-evaluated and re-distributed along the 0-120 scale. Not sure Remove Curse, specifically, should be at the high end, but it should be higher than it is. The Karma should only matter in how effective the spell is, not whether you can cast it at all. (Example, as remove curse is now, it takes minimal skill to cast, however if you have negative, or even neutral, karma you will fail to cast. You should be able to cast, but fail to remove the curse x of the time, if that makes sense.)

    Agreed. It should give you 100% reflect physical (after they fix that flagging bug with it!!) for the very next hit. Magic Reflect should be tweaked to something similar to what it used to be, as well.
    Hmmm ... before I could comment fully, I would have to try SW with 4/6 casting. The spells are painfully slow at 0/6, that is for certain! Maybe Arcane Focus could give a bonus reduction in cast time?

    Mixed. I think the real problem with Eth Voyage is its cast time. With Honor, you can invis and then honor yourself quickly before anything re-flags on you (you still pop out of invis). With Ethy Voyage ... it takes so long to cast that even if you were NOT flagged when you started casting, you are flagged by the end and it gives you a fail. I think I would rather see its cast time reduced than see it castable while flagged.

    Hmm. I think they made a poor description of it. I think it works fine as-is, but they need to change the spell description.
     
  5. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    WOW, I really thought I was going to get flamed hard on my post. I truly tried to make my idea fair across the board.

    You guys came up with good ideas as well in some of the proposed tweaks to my ideas.

    In regards to the taming changes, they would apply in PvP only. If the pet was attacking spawn then players could heal and cure them, but the moment the pet was sicked on another player, then the Vet proposal would apply as I stated. Thoughts?

    I also understand about a player losing connection and not wanting his pet to die, but we all have to deal with it as players. This is why I think they should remove stat/skill loss from pets if they die.

    I am also torn about the bandaids proposal, because I can see mages just stop people from healing by magic arrowing them the whole time. Although I like the idea that it could be that way if they speed up the healing times ala greater heal spell.

    I personally think that they should remove the karma aspect for Chiv spells but that’s just me. It really allows blues to abuse the skill.

    But.... how then about they tie negative karma to Necro. So if you have positive karma it has the same type of repercussions as neg karma with Chiv. Maybe if you are Red, it works even better. Then maybe they could make Chiv only work if you are Blue with positive karma? Thoughts?

    I really like the stun idea for earthquake as opposed to dismount, mainly because there has to be a way to counteract all the stealth archers who just sit and wait for the right time, and then dismount you which leads to 15 people ganking you, and if it fails they run off in wolf form or use a smoke bomb to rehide.

    I definitely think that Earthquake should reveal every hidden person regardless of their hiding skill... ya know like it bounces them off of their spot so it reveals them, along with the proposed stun to them.. Thoughts?

    I forgot to talk about the magic resist spell and i sure do wish it was reverted to pre-aos ways. Honestly who cares if you get +40 to your resists at 120. It's not like it adds to your armor resist count. Now if it did add to the armor resist count then it would be different. As is is today, with trapped boxes and pots and even very low Chiv, it renders the skill useless.

    I didn't even post the biggest problem in PvP or Fel, but I will now.
    I bet most of you didn't know this one.. I just found out yesterday!!
    Are you ready to freak out?

    Draconi will you guys ever fix the bug that allows people to drink the heal and cure (all drinkable) pots off of corpses without getting flagged in guard zone. Instead of looting them which flags them grey, they can just drink the pots of off the corpses until they are all gone.
     
  6. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    To the healing / curing. This proposal is not really required and mostly just ends up penalizing the Magical Heal/Cure spells.

    The second part of that the Special Moves (you are being naughty here and sneaking something in). Would not have any relevant tie to the Veterinary skill. It would have relevance to the Lore and / or the Taming skill. I suspect you didn't include them because they need to be high in order to control the pet anyway.

    The proposal (first one on Pets) isn't required and wont do anything other than remove Tamers. Remove them for no other reason than some templates, can not easily deal with tem and need to use different itemization sets.

    GIVEN THE SECOND PROPOSAL, the first is absolutely NOT required or relevant.

    First off, REGARDLESS OF PvM or PvP this LogOff to Save A Pet is pretty darn crappy. Is in, my opinion, EXPLOITING, NOT A BUG, but a design flaw.

    I fail to see the difficulty in implementation of or any reasonable reason NOT TO tie the pets Insta Log Off to the PvP Fleeing Flag. The rules for that SHOULD be known to people and IF tied to the INSTA LOG OFF of the pet is tied to that flag being OFF, then there shouldn't be any grumbling about it.

    While reading your proposal (vs tamer changes) and writing this reply, I can not come up with scenarios in Trammel were this flag is set in terms of PURE PvM.

    Of course an Alternative would be to simply turn off the Insta Log A Pet feature in Felucca and SP (if it is there).

    This of course SHOULD require every single Feluccan/SP person to strongly get on the UO Teams Case when a bug is documented that DELETES or LOSES a Pet.

    In my opinion, Friend and Foe should definitely get behind the concept that BUGS are every ones enemy.

    The longer they exist the more people will exploit them.

    The more people that exploit them, the more the UO Culture becomes CONFUSED about a very simple and basic concept, "You knowingly and repeatedly exploit a Bug and that is it your out of here".
     
  7. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I see where you are coming from, and personally think it should be in this order.
    You need Taming to Tame and Vet to heal cure and res. Lore should be how Vet is now and sorta act like having magic resist. This way the only two skill are required ala mage and eval or necro and SS to truly control and take care of the pet, but to be truly effective they would need Lore as well. Again like having magic resist.

    I don't want to nerf taming, but there needs to be a way to balance things out to stop people from not using a specific required skill and using another to make their template more difficult.

    As it is now tamers don't even need to have Vet with almost no penalty to them other than being able to res the pet. At least there are many more problems to deal with when not having magic resist skill even though pots petals and trapped boxes kinda nerf it. But at least when a person dies and loses those items they are kinda screwed in PvP.
     
  8. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I am NOT in favor of Tamers NOT having Veterinary. I just plain and simple think this is wrong. But that is a play style perception and is not worthy of a game change, per se.

    BUT

    I have NO problem tieing Veterinary to Loyalty. As in a major component to Loyalty decay. Lore and Taming should contribute, BUT if a pet can NOT be Vet'd (and Veterinary is more than just healing and rezing, conceptual) then the pets willingness to do the Tamers bidding is reduced. This should NOT be confused with the ability to issue commands in a direct manner, it is an indirect influence.

    This indirect influence should be, via Loyalty, be tied to the Pets willingness to obey the Tamer. I believe this is already the case and would only require the added decay of the Veterinary skill. This might, as a stake in the ground, be with Taming and Lore at minimum level to own/control the pet, be a 50% greater decay in loyalty at 0.0 Veterinary to were it is now at a Vet skill equal to the Minimum required currently for Lore and Taming.

    For PvP, I have NO issues with tieing in a check of the opponents Fame, Karma to the Tamers Fame and Karma as a choice if the pet will do as the Tamer commands, assume All Attack, for discussion purposes.

    Such that if one were a "Dread Lord" (can they even exist now?) and the Tamer was a "Glorious Lord", then use the Pets Original Karma Alignment, to allow the Pet to decide if they "Think" the command is worth doing (meaning consistent with their inherent nature/alignment).

    Such that, asking a Negative Karama pet to Attack a Negative Karma target (PC or MoB) will decrease the Loyalty proportionally to the Karma of the Target vs the Tamer. Edited for clarification: Assume the Target has the same Karma Alignment as the Pet and both have opposite Karama Alignment of the Tamer. Such that if the, Target is Max Karma and the Tamer had NO Karma then the maximum decay in Loyalty is invoked vs the Tamer having an equal Karama then 0 decay in loyalty is invoked. Of course the opposite should result in an opposite effect (building Loyalty).

    You can build the same structures for Fame.

    It is my opinion, that all to often the vastly superior Intelligence of the Mob's are 100% for show and they become mindless puppets once tamed. This, in my opinion, is a vast area, filled with, Opportunities for Improvements.

    As a segway and not intended to derail this topic, it has never made sense to me that a Lizardman will act like a moron and go attack a Greater Dragon, for example, something it should know it can not win .... alone :) Why wouldnt it go rally its allies first then all of them go attack it :)
     
  9. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I don't have any problem with what you're suggesting. If I'm PvPing with my pets I'm there right beside them, and with the appropriate skills.

    If we can still support heal pets in PvM I have no problem with requiring the skills in vet and lore to vet during PvP encounters. That's absolutely fair.

    As for the special moves, well not every pet does them, so you can use a pet that doesn't do a special if you don't want to run with vet skills. Specials aren't the only damage a pet does, so it's not a harsh nerf at all. At the end of the day a tamer with the correct skills can manage and keep their pet alive with what you propose. But there should be a penalty IMHO if you haven't got the required skills to follow up on the pet bonding agreement. Pity we can't also have pets refuse to bond without the necessary vet and lore skills too :D

    The non taming stuff all looks fine to me, but as an occasional PvPer only, I'm not really qualified to comment beyond that lol :)

    Wenchy
     
  10. SCAM

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    I think its time for super dragons to be taken out, or not allow them in fel. B/c a 2 hit kill from a dragon is way to over powered
     
  11. Sir Kenga

    Sir Kenga Guest

    I like Earthquake idea, fully support.

    Also is there a reason that chivalry Dispell Evil doesn't dispell anything? It would be nice if it really dispell vortex and revenants and spellweaving summons and demons. Of course spell casting difficulty should be raised too.
     
  12. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't a post on that subject. This post is for overall blance in PvP, mainly for Fel.

    With some of the propsed changes I belive it would balance out overpowered pets anyway.
     
  13. Fox (Europa)

    Fox (Europa) Guest

    I'll save Draconi the bother: They aren't going to get implented because this game isn't called Mages Online.

    Dig?

    Fox
     
  14. Trapped boxes must stay. Either that or give everyone 120 more skill points.

    Simple Justification : if trapped boxes are removed and every pvper is forced to take up resisting spells, then it only makes everyone's template dumbed-down, more boringly uniform, and less creatively intelligent.

    And freedom and creativity being the biggest strength of UO, in effect asking for such a change is asking to hurt/dumb-down/destroy UO.

    Leave trapped boxes alone. Final say on the matter.
     
  15. You're right. Ever since the introduction of the Samuri Empire, it has remained Archer Online. Isn't that your main character?
     
  16. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    It only forces players to have resist if they dont want to be stuck when paralyzed.

    How is it fair that an archer can para you with their stun and a trapped box doesnt remove it?

    Mages have to have resist to survive against other mages, yet dexers dont have to have it to survive against mages. how is that fair? This puts the mage 120 skill points down to the dexer, that is why there are so many uber dexer and archer tempates these days.

    But you have yor opinion and I have mine. I don't expect to change yours, just like you wont change mine.

    Thanks for you thoughts on this subject :)
     
  17. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Technicaly only a couple of my proposals deal with mages, the rest don't.

    I'm not sure what part of the post made you think that everything was mage oriented.

    Did you read the whole post? Or only the parts that pertained to mages?
     
  18. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    is there anything people would like added to the list?

    I was thinking about my proposal on tamers and the Vet skill. I do think that the Tamer should have to have Vet to heal and cure and res the pet, but after some thought, maybe they should have to have animal lore for the pets to do specials.
     
  19. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    "Trapped boxes: Is there anyway you can remove trapped boxes from the game to stop people from not having to have magic resist, thus abling them to have uber templates?"

    First fix Magic Resistance, potion timers. Go from there.

    "Bolas: Can the use of bolas be tied to having to have a skill to use them, a la special moves?"

    You do not require a special skill to drink a potion or eat an apple and the bola limits you severely by displaying a message and requiring that you hold no shield or weapon. It also has a significat delay in hitting the target.

    "Earthquake: Can Earthquake be changed so it dismounts people as well as the damage it does?"

    If something needs fixing and tying to special skills, it is Dismount and Disarm(they wanted to cramp templates right?). Adding it as a bonus here and there is foolish. And mages are already too versatile.

    "Healing: Is there a specific reason that healing can not be disrupted completely like mage healing can?"

    You can make their fingers slip rendering it quite useless. And you cannot disrupt mages at 120 defensive skill and 45% or more DCI with In Mani's speed and the low chances to hit(also to bypass Parry when it's there) when they cast In Vas Mani. Add pots and they already are far more powerfull than warriors in healing. Mortal affects everyone and Infect gets cured instantly. Pretty much no arguments left.

    "Greater Cure pots: Is there a reason that there is no timer to the use of greater cure pots like heal pots?"

    None. Just plain stupidity and whiners thinking Infect has to be cured instantly and Mortal Wound(which is by far more devastating) hasn't. Hence Apple Timers(Necro whiners also responsible for this).
    Think.

    Mortal = No skill, on ranged weapon, very efficient at stopping healing because you cannot even START bandages for example nor drink Cure+Heal combo.
    Solution for Mortal = An Apple. It has a timer.

    Vs!!

    Infect = 80 to 100 skill, not on ranged weapon(Serpent Arrow is crap and is not affected by Poisoning, and people prefer Mortal for a reason!), and is not at all effective at stopping anything because bandages CAN BEGIN to be applied and then a potion can be chugged PER SECOND allowing for chained Cure followed by Heal pots.
    A mage can even pre-cast In Vas Mani, chug and cast on self. Totally ridiculous. And damage NEVER HITS so it has nothing Vs. Mortal.

    Do me the maths and you'll end up with the most stupid feature in UO. No timers on Refresh/Cure.

    I say Refresh too because now everyone can run around FOREVER even when they 4 Health.

    "Pots: how about tying the use of pots to alchemy, meaning if you dont have the skill you cant use them at all, instead of just getting a bit of a bonus when using them."

    - How about they first give quite long Timers to all pots and make Alchemy reduce those timers by 50% AND ADD bonus? Didn't they wanna cramp templates more? There ya go.

    "Evil Omen: Can evil omen be tied to magic resist, meaning the higher the magic resist the less effect it has."

    How about it has a chance to be totally resisted? Cuz what you suggest won't keep them, if not Energy Field then they will have enough time to cast Stone Wall and it works just as fine.

    "Evil Omen: Can the spell casting time be increased for it?"

    No need if other ideas get implemented.

    "Chivalry: Can the Chiv spells be changed to require more than 80 skill points to use things like Remove Curse. Why is it that every other skill requries higher points to succeed at their use but Chiv doesnt? Hence no one has more than 80 skill points invested into it, in PvP."

    Yeah and I wish I had a nice bonus for 100 Poison. LP is nothing these days and I get lower mana from practically everything very easy.

    "Magery: Reactive Armor, can it be changed slightly to act like it used to pre-AoS, to where it refleceted damage back to the Melee'r."

    NO. Use Necro's Oath. Enough versatility on mages and it already helps you build good suits if you have Scribe.
    I mean if you do this you might add a chance to totally block a direct damage spell if you have 120 Magic Resist, in which case Bushidos(Evasion) will rule all mages in any scenario. Just NO.

    "Spellweaing: Jsut about every spell needs its casting time reduced, and the delay between recasting certain spells needs to be reduced."

    The balance in Spellweave is the timers on spells. And you know what, I wish EVERYTHING IN UO HAD TIMERS. Think about it, far more strategic combat and timing involved. Moreover it's what keeps SWeaving from being Imba, that and its mana costs.

    "Spellweaving: Etheral Voyage should be able to be cast while spawn is around. Not being able to makes it almost completely useless."

    It's a spell about preparation. You know you're going to spawn, so use it before.

    "Spellweaving: Word of Death is supposed to have a chance of killing it's target if they are below ( I think ) 25% health. It rarely kills someone with 20 hit points or less."

    That's because the ability is PVM ONLY. Or give meleers and archers a chance to kill someone with a critical hit when they are low on health! Btw please don't.
     
  20. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Over all interesting points.

    I agree with the fix magic resist, but trapped boxes still allow for dexers to basically have 120 extra skill points that most mages wont have.


    From what I've seen it just slows down the healing not interupting it completly.

    Can you explain to me which skill the 120 defensive skill is? I personaly get disrupted from dexers all the time when i In Mani and for sure get disrupted when I in vas mani. Also in mani just doesnt do enough healing to save you from a conc/mortal spamming archer or a DP/AI/bleed/disarm spamming dexer.

    Warriors can use pots just like mages and most mages can not do mortal.


    Most mages have serious trouble defending against dexer damage. You say a mage can precast GH, but yout ake it for granted that he will even be able to get the spell casted before he dies. See on next response.


    This is where you are confusing me. You say that blood oath is good enough and then you mention inscribe in the same breath.
    Mage, Med, Eval, Resist, Necro and SS.. where does Inscribe fit in? ANd yes all the skill should be at 120 minus the inscribe.

    And for a mage to be defensive he would need a weapon skill and tactics and trule would also need parry, so that would mean he has to drop resist necro and SS.

    I have 2 mage temps, and both are corpse skin proof all 70's+ with 55 DCI, 9MR, 45 LMC, 100LRC, 3/6 casting (i know 2/6 is cap, but it lets me use a penalty weapon)

    1st) mage, med, eval, resist, necro, SS with a -20 SC mage weapon and I still get hit very often and cant do specials like disarm. Sometimes getting a single spell off is very difficult. Please keep in mind that I am talking about against a maxed out dexer with a great weapon, like the people we see in Fel all the time.

    2nd) mage, med, eval, fencing, parry, tactics. This temp does extremely well against dexers but gets destroyed against necro mages.


    I agree but the problem is that if you precast it outside the dungeon, by the time you get in it wears off. Dont forget in Fel we can not recall into dungeons. So imagine wanting to go the Balron Room on Hytloth, you wouldnt even make it there with Etheral Voyage precast before it wore off.


    Well the users guide says it's for both and that it has a certain % chance of killing a player when they are below a % of hit points, and it doesnt do that.
     
  21. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Come on Draconi, throw me a bone and respond to this thread.

    i would love to hear your thoughts, either positive or negative, on some of these proposed changes for PvP in Fel.
     
  22. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I have been waiting until I had more time to come back to this thread, and it has bit me in the butt as I now have much more to reply to! This is probably gonna be all mixed up, but here we go:

    I like this idea. I think it is an interesting way to make Vet more valuable.

    My thoughts are this would be a complete nightmare to code and would thus leave it too open to bugs, making it not very viable. (I want to be sure the ideas are practical to implement!)

    This is also a bit sticky. I am given to understand (and could be wrong) that having negative karma does have a negligable effect on some Necro spells. However, almost all (if not all) necro spells get their power from SS, so heavily tying karma in isnt really fair or good. And that is exactly why Chiv was tied to Karma - because it DOESNT have a modifying skill (al a Eval, Tactics, SS). However, I think the implementation is a bit skewed. Karma should not effect the ABILITY to cast (it does), it should only effect the length, strength of the spell. I agree that the spells need to be re-scaled. I think the Dev's at that time underestimated the gimpiness of their scaling, because they only thought of PvM. Thankfully, our current Dev's seen to have a wider sight range.

    I know it will dispel Revs that are NPC cast ... I use it in Doom. However ... I think you are right about the rest ... if it is supposed to Dispel Evil, then it needs to DISPEL EVIL (things attacking me!)

    While I am on the fence about EQ dismounting (I am on the fence because of the friendly fire code), I agree with this. How does a person stay hidden if they are bouncing and jostling around??

    The Dev's have specifically stated that they WANT the templates crowded. They WANT you to have to make hard choices. That is part of what they rely on for balancing out some of the skills. Consider the proposal I gave about trapped boxes: they work, but only one time before they must be re-trapped. This help eliminate alot of the issues with them, as well, such as using one to get thru a line of 20 para-fields in just a few moments. I can't even do that at 120 resist, why should an item allow it? Freedom and creativity with skillsets is one of UO's biggest strenghts, but it is also one of its biggest weaknesses that leads to imballance because it is hard to anicipate every single way a person can use the skill you implement. Do you think the Dev's anticipated a PvM killing machine (Sampire) when they added Bushido?

    These are good points, to be considered in any proposal to change bolas.

    Oh really? I play a dexer ... and I can honestly say my bandies have never been rendered "quite useless" by slippage.

    Good points, however they are already tied to skills (tactics).

    Good points ... why not scaled it against resist AND make there be a chance to totally resist? THoughts?

    Not all mages are necros. He suggested that the toggle be removed and it be a single-use spell, if I am not mistaken. So it reflects back ONE spell, just one, then it must be recast. I don't know many people who would be willing to cast and cast and cast it rather than use other spells.

    I fear you are ignoring that the "modifier" for SW is a focus. With a level 5 or 6 focus, this spell lasts a sufficient length of time to do ALOT of things. I use it for PvM purposes. I never thought to use it for PvP reasons (I use honor instead because Eth Voyage puts you on foot).

    I still feel like SW should be tested with 5-6 focus and 4/6 casting before messing with it too much.

    Right - and that is a flaw in the users guide, I believe. Maybe we could get Jeremy to have Draconi clarify if this is correct? That when they changed it it was intended to no longer work that way on PC's.
     
  23. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    All good points!! :thumbup1:

    I did take the arcane focus into account but even with a lvl 6 it lasts about 1 minute if that.

    After that you can’t really cast it again unless you plan on leaving the dungeon.

    And again don’t forget that we can not recall into dungeons in fell. So if you plan on going to a bottom level of a dungeon you will never make it there before the Ethereal Voyage wears off.

    Regarding Blood Oath, it almost makes it like magic reflect used to be. I wish they would return reflect to the old ways.

    And you are 100% correct, not all mages are necro mages and we don’t necessarily want to be.
     
  24. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I could probably answer some of these, or at least give insight on why things happen as they do......

    Are you required to have Meditation to cast a spell?. Point out to me how having knowledge of healing pets directly relates to being able to control them, Just like having the ability to regen mana faster relates to being able to actually having the ability (not potential) to cast a spell. Answer it doesn't.

    It fixes the issue of accidentally targeting a guild mate which does happen. If you couldn't call them back by any means you'd have some rather upset people.

    You want to remove one of the best thief deterrents? Magic Trapped pouches and Trapped chests are a no-no to thieves. My opinion on Resist though is it should be like it used to be and give an across the board damage reduction from spells.

    This I could understand it removes the need for a special strike weapon to dismount it doesn't use Mana either.

    It would be about pointless since you can't directly target an individual, go ahead dismount everyone on screen see how long it is before they bash you.

    I can agree with this to be honest but I understand why it doesn't work also. When you mount a pet it reacts as an Item not a Mobile, basically you equipped your pet the paralyze isn't on you so the system ignores it.

    Healing can be disrupted, mortal strike does it. Also numerous hits on a player using a bandage reduces it's effectiveness. It's how you get the "Your fingers slip" message.

    If you have 80 poisoning and enough weapon/tactics to do an infectious strike I can hit you with a level of poison that Orange Petals and Vamp Form can't make you immune to, Greater Cures fail on it a portion of the time also. No Timer means you can actually keep chugging till the poison cures.

    Who would alchemists sell to? Other Alchemists?

    Evil Omen has no direct effect it enhances other effects. While I do agree that magic resist should have an effect on it but that effect should be to completely resists it not reduction in effect.

    Casting time is or should be tied to spell circle. Even Necro Spells fall into categories by strength and difficulty just like Magery.

    Because if things require more than 80% even at 120 you can't get a 100% Success rate. Magery doesn't fizzle at 120 in theory...why should any Chiv spells.

    Only if it's for one shot :p

    name me another skill set that allows you to rez yourself, or do the amount of damage WoD does? They can in the right situations have bigger effects than other Spell casting groups, they need to be done so that spamming isn't really possible.

    So If I was an orc... and you popped in my lair and I advance on you, if you turn in to a funny looking Meermage I'm supposed to say "Ok you can go"?

    It has a possibility if they are between 5-30% if they are under 5% it shouldn't kill them, based on the spells description. It's all in knowing when to actually cast it. Even if it doesn't kill them it does huge amounts of damage to Peerless and Doom bosses that are in that 5-30% range. It's a good spell as it is....

    It's almost impossible as long as item dependence allows you to circumvent the normal limits of a character. They tweak one thing and another just takes it's place.
     
  25. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I commented in a different post that maybe specials would not be tied to Vet. But I would love to hear why you don't think that Vet should be the only way to heal or cure your pets? In regards to PvP in Fel.


    Why not fix that issue instead? Allowing pets to be recalled when flagged is unfair, just like players can not recall when flagged. Again this is in regards to Fell and PvP.

    I havent seen a thief in Fel in years. Either way it makes templates unbalanced by allowing trapped boxes in the game.


    That would be the risk on takes when they cast it, wouldnt it? ANd it wont do anything to blues if a blue casts it, only reds as in how the flagging system is today.


    This doesnt make it right though, does it?


    Mages cant do mortal stirke. This was in regards to how a mage can have his heal spells and cure spells interupted but a dexers cant, other than Mortal form another dexer.


    Not 80% 80 skill points. Chiv should not fail at 120 just like magery. But Chiv only requires 80 skill points to realize its main benefits, where magery with 80 skill points is useless.


    Well if I quickly put on a mask of orcish kin, you sure would say "Ok you can go" :lick:


    This change is in regards to PvP in Fel, not PvM. It is also about how the users guide says it can have the possiblity to kill them if they are between 5-30%

    Agreed completely, and good comments in your post :thumbup1:
     
  26. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Well, this is where the balance comes in. If you COULD get from the top to the bottom of a dungeon with Ethy Voyage, that would be un-balanced. And even Honor has a 5 minute timer.

    If I could find enough stuff to get to 4/6 on one of my SWers I would check the cast time on it at that level, but my Orni is on a shard that my SWer is not on. I know that at 0/5 it is too slow to be useful in a spawn area because even if you are not targetted when you start to cast it, you are by the end and thus it fails. Honor doesn't suffer this issue.

    So ... I am on the fence with Ethy Voyage.

    Other SW spells - again I need to test them at their max capacity. Essence and T'storm SHOULD be long casts, given the havoc the wreck. I use them in choke fights, where I am primarily a fielder if on that char. Worse, I use them under protection so they are painful slow ... but so effective that it doesnt matter.

    I think that the summons - even tho they are fairly wreak - are a bit too quick a cast ATM in my opinion (based on summons times for other skillsets). Adding one tick to their cast time would not be too bad.

    I understand why WoD has such a painfully slow cast time ... in PvM it is a very powerful spell; but I don't think it would hurt to reduce the cast time just a little bit.
     
  27. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    This is why I think a good solution would be to let people cast it in dungeons even if flagged by spawn, but then just put a recast timer on it of 2 minutes or something like that.

    I cant speak for Tram, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone use it in a Fel dungeon.

    Even at a champ spawn, I suppose you cold cast it before someone started the spawn, but you wouldn't need to cast Eth Voyage for lvl 1 spawn anyway, and when you do need to cast it, lets say at lvl 3 you cant cause the spawn is flagged to you.
     
  28. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
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    I haven't read any further in this thread than the first post, but when mage healing spells require a totally different skill from all other mage spells, then bandies can be interruptable. :D
     
  29. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    So in your mind the fact that a mage has to stop to cast the spell isn't enough of a penalty?
     
  30. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
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    Not at all.


    The magery skill gives my mages offensive skills, defensive skills, invisibility, summons, nightsight and healing.

    The healing skill gives my dexxers the ability to use a bandage without interruption.


    When either:

    Healing skill gives all the abilities of magery, or "mage healing" becomes a separate skill (requirimg 90 points to work properly), then either bandies are interruptable OR "mage healing" (but no other mage spells), becomes uninteruptable.
     
  31. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I can see your point.. but a dexer also has the ability to do about 20 to 40 HP damage per hit more than a mage.

    Everyone has nightsite now anyway between armor and the new earings, so that is moot in my opinion.

    Also keep in mind that these are in regards to PvP only, so invisibility doesnt really help much when there a dp dexer on your tail :) Let alone the fact that he can just throw a conflag pot on the stop you invised.

    What are the mages defensive "skills" or "spells" that you are talking about? At least in what respect do you mean?

    Other than EV's and the occasional Demon, our summns are useless.
     

  32. I loved old magic reflect
     
  33. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I still to this day can not figure out why they changed it.

    Also if they changed MR back to the old ways they should make Blood Oath only work against melee attacks.
     
  34. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Hmm ... I gotta stop you here real quick. I fight mages all the time who use invis to break target. It is a royal PITA. What good it is for me to be standing right next to them when they pop out if I have to re-target them before I can swing anyway? So ya ... invis is still used quite a bit :) (maybe you should try this trick, see how it works for ya with that DP dexer on your tail ... you might be pleasantly surprised to find a new "weapon" in your aresenal.)

    @ Fluffi: I do understand the complaint of making bandies interuptable, that is why I suggested that the bandage timer be reduced to the same amount of time as a G'heal at 2/6. (I am primarily a dexer, tho I do use mages for some things.)

    To help people know where I am looking at this from so its not just considered a one sided thing: My main char is usually blue, but goes red about 1x/3 month. I keep her blue for virtues (popping spawns, protecting, self rez, compassion rez's). Skills are 120 Swords, 120 Tactics, 120 Resist, 100 Anat, 100 Lumberjacking, 90 Heal, 70 Chiv. I DONT have 4/6 and I only use Close Wounds in emergencies. The char is multi-purpose: I can pop the spawn, work it (Blaze of Death, Soulseeker), kill the champ or be the protector, defend or raid. I have been known to fight without bandies and on foot.

    I also have a red Mage/SW'er with Focus AND Med for fielding in Harrowers.

    Last: OMG, we are having an adult discussion of PvP related things!!
     
  35. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I can see your point here, and I may be wrong but isnt there a macro to re-target the person?

    There are also confusion pots but they dont work against mages... hmm not sure what to say..

    But I will say that it is pretty darn hard to get off an invis spell with a well skilled warrior on your tail.

    And yes... I'm very surprised at how "mature" everyone is being in these posts. It sure is rare :thumbup1:
     
  36. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
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    I think you are being awkward, just for the sake of moving the discussion along, so I will play the same game... :D



    Healing (when paired with Anatomy) gives the useer the oportunity to heal, stop bleeds and cure poisons (over a period of time), without interruption (unless "your fingers slip")
    So, a maximum of three "actions" associated with the skill.


    On the other hand, magery gives 64 spells.....

    Transport = recall & gate
    Defensive = proteection, reactive, bless, reflect, etc
    Summons = a range of summoned creatures
    Heals = greater, minor, mini cure & major cure
    Offensive = all the rest


    Your mage (and mine) gets 2 tyoes of heal, a 2 types of cure, along with another 60 spells. The heals/cures are mostly interruptable - but this is mitigated by the fact that the same skill also gives us 60 other attack/defence/protection/travel abilities.

    Your dexer (and mine) has a single skill that can either heal OR stop a bleed OR nullify poison. This skill cannot usually be interrupted, but is on a timer.


    Which part of this do you find imbalancing?
     
  37. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Ah I see what you meant.

    But protection can be just as deadly against you in some cases and dont forget it drops your casting to 0/6 and your magic resist to 85 from 120.

    Honestly reactive armor and magic reflect are almost useless with the penalties that come with them, usually lowering your phys to a point that is unacceptable.

    Of the summons spells you mostly only see 2 of them casted, Energy Vortex and Demons.

    clumsy/feeblemind/weaken are used for mage cast disruption and do nothing against a warrior.

    magic arrow cant even be spammed to quickly, if so it doesnt do any damage, and it is used as disruption in mage spells, but doesnt do much to warriors. Heck we cant even cast back to back explodes to quickly, which is kinda sad.

    agility/cunning/strenght are hrdly ever cast since we have bless. harm is a mage disruption spell that doesnt do much against warriors.

    Magic Trap/Untrap, magic lock, telekenisis, unlock are useless.

    Arch cure is good but try to get it off when dped against a warrior.

    Arch protection is useless. Mana Drain is ok, but doesnt last long enough and if they have resist its useless. Mana vamp is ok but if they ahve resist its useless

    blade spirits and summon creature are useless.

    Reveal is ok, but the main people it needs to work against, stealthers, it doesnt.

    Polymorph is pretty much useless other than champ spawns.
     
  38. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I see and understand what Fluffi is saying. I also see what you are saying 02bavr6 (I hate your user name! Can't you sign with a better name?) about Magery in general, but it isnt really fair to say "because my book is full of stupid spells I think you should be nerfed" (I know you really aren't saying that exactly)

    Hmmm. Gonna think on this some more.
     
  39. Sip-n-Shine

    Sip-n-Shine Guest

    Add to this that. A Gm mage with Gm alchemy an Gm poison gets a bonus on the skill of poisoning. Add scribe an he really rocks as a pure arcane mage.
     
  40. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Just say o2, like Oh to be a VR6, as in the engine of a VW :D
     
  41. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest

    Umm, wow...you must not play a mage much.

    Most of these are very useful spells.

    Something just tells me you haven't PVP'd long, or haven't PVP'd at all =/
     
  42. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I would love to hear which of the spells i listed that you think are useful against warriors?

    Magic Trap/Untrap, magic lock, telekenisis, blade spirits and summon creature, Arch protection, agility, cunning, strenght, reactive armor, magic reflect, summon fire ele, water ele, earth ele, air ele.

    I listed the ones that are ok in mage duels but only for disrupt purposes.
     
  43. Glim Gerrack

    Glim Gerrack Guest

    I dont completely agree with everything suggested here, but i think this could solve the majority of PVP issues, and I think I could live with the changes.
     
  44. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    All stop then all follow me would work just fine in this instance. As would casting invis on the unwitting victim. I've never been a pet ball user so that's worked fine for me over the years during PvP and accidental fights.

    Wenchy
     
  45. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    "I agree with the fix magic resist, but trapped boxes still allow for dexers to basically have 120 extra skill points that most mages wont have."

    The box is not template specific obviously. Mages can use it too and forego Resist for the matter.

    "From what I've seen it just slows down the healing not interupting it completly."

    It substracts a significant amount of hit points that you'd otherwise heal.

    "Can you explain to me which skill the 120 defensive skill is?"

    Any normal weapon skill and Wrestling help you avoid hits and are in this context defensive.

    "I personaly get disrupted from dexers all the time when I In Mani."

    You are not properly kiting your target.

    "Get disrupted when I In Vas Mani."

    Timing and kiting. Precious personal skills. Or get a script to do 90% of the work.

    "Also In Mani just doesnt do enough healing to save."

    Not per cast, but if you spam it and time your pot chugging you're unkillable.

    "Warriors can use pots just like mages and most mages can not do Mortal."

    And mages can disarm without a weapon. It's fairly balanced. Also look at running a warrior mage and the fact a mage can lower your stats and resistances. I'd say you got the nice part of the deal! :p
    Also see how important Mortal has become? It's crazy and real cheap tactic... And people STILL argue about Cure Pot timers. Meh.

    "Most mages have serious trouble defending against dexer damage."

    I can assure you, you're doing something wrong or neglecting Disarm, Parry, DCI and other viable ways.

    "You say a mage can precast GH, but you take it for granted that he will even be able to get the spell casted before he dies. See on next response."

    You missed the pot chugging part. And once more, timing and kiting. Precious.

    "This is where you are confusing me. You say that Blood Oath is good enough and then you mention inscribe in the same breath."

    Let me try again. If you want to return damage to your attacker, use Oath from Necromancy. Also mages are quite versatile and through Inscription can even alter their suits' resistances allowing easy suit making.

    "Mage, Med, Eval, Resist, Necro and SS.. where does Inscribe fit in? And yes all the skill should be at 120 minus the Inscribe."

    I was saying the Mage is already versatile. SO versatile that it doesn't need one of the spells to return damage without spending points on Necro exactly so that you can't have Necro/Mage WITH MEDI AND DEFENSES. If you add Necro you lose something.
    FYI I was running a Necro/Mage that through items had enough Mana to not need Meditation. So he had Inscribe. I had to forego defense though and that's how it should be.

    "And for a mage to be defensive he would need a weapon skill and tactics and would also need parry, so that would mean he has to drop resist necro and SS."

    You have to make choices. There's also Wrestling BTW. Also you don't reaaaaaaally need Parry to be honest, but if you add it sometimes the other guy simply NEVER hits for a whole fight. Maybe once or twice.

    "I have 2 mage temps, and both are Corpse Skin proof all 70's+ with 55 DCI, 9MR, 45 LMC, 100LRC, 3/6 casting (i know 2/6 is cap, but it lets me use a penalty weapon)"

    You are doing something wrong or you don't use Crystalline Ring to compensate for the -20. To have your weapon act as if you had 120 skill you need 140 Magery. That's 120 + Crystalline for an ideal weapon mage.
    May I suggest you use Wrestling instead, because you will never fit tactics in there and Wrestling doesn't need them to do the most devastating thing- Disarm.

    For the other one well done. Destroyed by NecroMages is something that stands for everyone who won't use a plethora of items and isn't ready to run away every single time. Nevermind that, just consider NecroMages your template's natural counter and don't expect to beat everyone.

    "I agree but the problem is that if you precast it outside the dungeon, by the time you get in it wears off."

    Hey, don't pick SWeave then.. I mean if it doesn't work for what you do.
    It was never meant to be a God Mode NoClipping=On thingie. Just a period during which you may get to your corpse safely or some such task.

    "Well the users guide says it's for both and that it has a certain % chance of killing a player when they are below a % of hit points, and it doesn't do that."

    It has been officially stated it does not work on players, it only causes Energy damage. Can't find the link to it but unless they changed it during this month and never told us it still stands.
     
  46. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Okay, I went this morning and did some testing on TC at 4/6 casting for SW. I can honestly say that at 4/6, the cast time for everything is well within reason, given its overall power. T'storm was nearly instant cast, Essence was no worse than FS, maybe a tad less.

    Only thing was, when attempting to cast Ethy Voyage with a MOB anywhere on your screen, or even a few tiles off (in the range where you can hear but not quite see) you get flagged before you are even half thru casting the spell. This spell really should be sped up some. I can cast a TON of other spells before I get flagged, including invis. Given the re-use timer and duration, the spell already has power balance on it, so I don't see a good reason for its cast time to be that slow. Maybe an adjustment on it so that its cast time at 4/6 is equivalent to Invis at 2/6, or even at 0/6 would make it a more useful and more used spell.

    On the Bandaids. I personally would have no issue with it being changed to be interuptable if the timer was lowered, however, I can see other people's perspectives and could live just as well without. A different approach might be to make the skill base mean more. I use 90 healing. I know a lot who only use 80 - just enough to be able to rez. Sure, some use GM or better ... but it is the first thing to give in a crowded dexer template. Even giving "uninteruptable heals that you can do while doing other things" doesn't really make it worth a whole GM skill in some people's eyes, much less 120.
     
  47. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Interesting, I'll have to log in and try the casting times out. Maybe the tweaked them a bit.

    That is exactly what I was talking about with Ethy Voyage. In a place like Fel where you cant recall into a dungeon, it makes Ethy voayage kinda pointless. You don't need to cast it for the upper levels you need it for the lower levels where the tougher creatures are.

    What if they made it to where the spell stays in effect until you take at least 1hp of damage? Just a thought.

    I would say that it would be ok if they would let people recall into dungeons, but that wont happen because of champ spawns.
     
  48. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Well, you will never take even 1 HP of damage with Ethy on unless you are near a named creature (it doest work on them) so that would not work. As I said, speeding the cast time up so that it is akin to invis would do the job. I can pop out and invis before I get flagged, even on 0/6 (protection). If you had a viable chance to invis then cast the spell to completion it would provide more true usefulness over what it has now, then yes, more PvPer's might be inclined to use it, even tho it puts you at a disadvantage of being on foot.

    I have actually noticed the cast-time issue on the spell before, but assumed it was because I was using protection. I use it occasionally for taming things like Hiryu, and in the time it takes to run onto the screen the animal is on (on foot) and start taming, you only get 2-3 shots at (getting the taming process to start, rather than "you anger") without a focus.

    I will have to play around with it, some, as well. As far as I know it is strictly monster ignore like Honor, but not quite as good. It could be handy, but I am not sure to what extent.
     
  49. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    LOL Good point.

    But from what I recall the flag timer lasts longer than the invis spell does, so if you try to cast ethy voyage after being invised for a while it still wont let you.

    Am I wrong here?
     
  50. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    I agree with the alchemy changes. i know alot of alchemists feel they are going to get nerfed soon because anyone can use pots with out the skill. i think the timer should exist for greater cures main because, after the big pvp fix, for some reason greater cures can have a 100% chance of cureing lethal poison. its really really getting annoying. and i think the timer should be reduced for greater skill in alchemy. and just for self gratification i would like 120 alchemy so that i can be a legendary alchemist :)

    good ideas tho btw. and i like the earth quake dismount thing, but only if it dismounts the caster as well.