1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

PvP Tamers are Overpowered

Discussion in 'UHall' started by drinkbeerallday, Dec 30, 2008.

  1. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's so many angles to this discussion so I'll just throw something out there. I really think tamer should be required to have Vet skill. This could be implemented by having pet Stat/Skill decay over time (as the pet is neglected health care by it's owner)

    Also, I think as time passes pets should eventually become weak and die. Maybe after 1 RL week the pet starts to go. Also I think to stable the more powerful pets such as the overpowered Greater Dragon it should cost at least 1 Mil maybe 5 Mil per week to stable it.
     
  2. Umm... NO. I know you mention PvP, but ANY change to PvP and Tamers or any other skill also has an affect upon PvM. Pets should not get weaker. Tamers should NOT be nerfed, period.

    There should be NO requirements, rather there should be benefits to having skills and skill combinations. Try to approach it from that direction and I might agree, but what you propose is just a nerf and is wrong.

    Just out of curiosity, what do you have against tamers this week?
     
  3. Wow. Someone got ganked bya tamer.
     
  4. I agree with you on the Vet thing.

    The rest of it...well...is just sour grapes.

    Do you pay a tax on your uber weapons? Do your weapons decay in 1 RL week?

    No. and No.

    In fact, I have used many of the same bows on my archer for years. Some of the best weapons I have on my warrior characters (like the Soul Seeker for example) cost me less than 100k...and with luck, can be obtained for free, if I work the right spawns.

    Basically, what you are asking for is for tamers to be taken out of PvP.

    Why not just say that...since it is obvious to everyone that is your goal?
     
  5. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    Honestly, as someone who has a strictly PvM tamer I would like to see pet bonding gone from the game.

    The goods have not out weighed the bads on pet bonding. My tamer used to earn a living through pet sales and taming, now my tamer has to sit in a dungeon "farming" items and gold. It's not nearly as much fun for me as a player. Sure, it is great that my old pets are immortal, but I would GLADLY exchange pet mortality for a more important role in the game.

    On that same note.... Ethys need to go.
     
  6. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    9
    Wtf are you kids talking about? OP is right, tamers are too damn tough. They DO need to be nerfed. Anything that can hit you for 35 damage even at 70 phys resist, then drop a 65 point fireball on you at 70 fire resist, is over powered. I'm guessing you two are just idiots that have either played:

    In UoR: Tamer with 50 WWs
    In AoS: Beetle/Mare tamer
    Now: Super drags!

    Why should 300 skill points(Tame, lore, vet) allow someone to be over powered in PvP, and the single greatest tank/PvM template? I use mage, med, eval, what does that let me do? Not ****. You need to shut your bias mouth and stop looking at it from Trammy land.
     
  7. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    LOL, IBTL...la
     
  8. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,639
    Likes Received:
    1
    *Hands Drinkbeerallday a pair of asbestos long johns*

    I really don't agree with just about everything you suggested. Requiring vet on a tamer would be about like requiring healing on all meele and alchemy (to make medicine) on all casting chars otherwise they start getting sick and start loosing stats. The 1-5mil per high end pet per week is also a bad idea considering the number of pet slots. I've got chars that have 3-4 greater dragons in the stable that I'm holding for guildmates, so that would be 3-15 mil per week, and pets getting old and die over time. Heck, might as well go all out and say that after a month or two all pets, weapons, armour and spellbooks will decay and will need to be replaced (crafters would love that change).
     
  9. Heh... speak about being biased!

    There is a difference between nerfing and balancing. What the Op proposes does not balance tamers. Why should tamers suffer nerfing for about 5% of the population who PvP and less than 1% who can't adjust their tactics?

    By the way, I use a Bard (music, peace, provoke, and discord) and what does that let me do in PvP? A whole lot less than your mage. Talk about an imbalance!
     
  10. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    I have 2 PvP tamers. I have a mage/tamer with a dread mare and an archer tamer with a dread mare.

    Pets are extremely overpowered and do need to be removed from PvP. I should not be able to kill someone in 3 seconds.

    There is a bug in factions right now where you cannot have your pets attack someone of the same faction.

    They should take this "bug" and make it an intentional publish for players in general.
     


  11. Ah can you say no way. Like another poster says does your weapon wear out and go poof over time? On the topics of pets eventually getting weaker and dying heck no..takes time and luck to find the perfect pet stat and skill wise to have it go poof makes that wasted time. On raising the cost of stabling greater dragons have to disagree there too. These are just bad ideas and not the way to go on balancing pvp when it comes to tamers.
     
  12. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not my idea: The Dev's have established precedent for this. The new Replicas and Faction items will eventually decay and need to be replaced.
     
  13. wrekognize

    wrekognize Guest

    How about balance. Why take away an entire stratigy from pvp?

    ...
     

  14. So would the tamer then become unattackable by other players, or would she just be at the mercy of those that attacked her?

    That hardly seems like a balance...and would really suck for anyone that has a home in Fel and is a tamer.
     

  15. The only way I see this being done is if pet is fully trained upon being tamed..Im not sure back before pet bonding if you had to train pets up skill wise since I didnt have a tamer back then.. this also goes for pets daying over time..if they die then shouldnt have to spend all that time training a pet up so its at max effect.
     
  16. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    9
    I don't think the OPs ideas are the answer, but the thread name is 100% dead on.
     
  17. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    Just make it so only the regular dragons are tamable.
     
  18. What would you do with the greater dragons that are already tamed?

    My greater dragon does less damage in PvM than most archers do, and archery is almost risk free. And greater dragons aren't really the best pet to use many PvM situations, meaning my cu sidhe or bake/mare/rune beetle/etc. is better. A dread mare/mare combo does as much damage in PvP, and 5 frenzies can kill even faster in many cases... Do you want to untame those also?

    So, now that the genie is out of the bottle, I don't think what you propose is the best solution.
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Stat/skill loss over time is just a bad idea. Lets not forget that there are tamers who do NOT PvP. I agree something needs to be done, mainly for greater dragons in PvP, but this just goes way too far and unbalances tamers negatively.

    *BTW, the older the pet gets it technically gets stronger. What makes the ancient wyvern ancient? Its age. It use to be a wyvern. So according to the game, the older it is the stronger it is.
     
  20. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Years ago I have tamed an ancient wyrm and shadow wyrm and both of them got deleted when DEV said that these two were never meant to be tamables. But I dont think GD is that bad at all. GD/Dreads are both fine in PvM they are just too much in PvP. The easiest way to fix pets in PvP would be putting in some sort of damage cap/different damage calculation against another player (this method is very common in many other MMORPGs when a incredibily powerful pet is used in PvP).
     
  21. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    122
     
  22. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Yes! Damage cap for pets in PvP would solve the problem quite nicely.
     
  23. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    Having a bard can easily disable one or more enemy pets. One guild master is complaining that we defeated their 4 greater dragons because we had one bard on our side. He is claiming bards need to be nerfed.
     
  24. And I think this is what the Developers have in mind to "balance" greater dragons in PvP. None of the other suggestions really make sense to me because of how it would affect other play aspects.
     
  25. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,511
    Likes Received:
    2,906
    Max pet damage vs players at 25 reguardless of resist. Problem solved.
     
  26. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Have nobody learned yet? I've said it before and i'll say it again. If you suceesfuly get tamers nerfed the tamer will most likley wont be able to compete even if they can compete guess who they gonna scraem on these boards to get nerf most likly youre certain skill class and then so you can divert the attention from your self to try to nerf another class and then that class will be angry and attack youre class or another and round and round it goes. Every template getting weaker and weaker to keep up with the previous template that was nerf to oblivion. Once again this game is a skill set game theres no only could be tamer only could be archer etc.. But changes keep pushing that which is not in the spirit of a 7 gm 6 legendary or 10 master skill sets etc.. Stop having just one certain template in youre 7 slots and play with them all so that it effect you no matter what is nerfed.

    Make every body skill more usable and powerful not weaker so that every one can finaly meet in a higher level but not equal as that means this will end up another math game etc..(i hit for 5 because attack phy always hit for 5 and you hit for 6 cause attack magic always hit's for 6 now i calculate the chess moves to get a advantage using the classic pincer attack and he will counter at with the classic (insert method here)). Man am tired of games becoming like chess.
     
  27. Only if you do that for every other PvP attack type... which won't happen to either.
     
  28. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    Leave the PvP taming threads to PvPers, we're not trying to stop you from farming your blood elementals or designing new neon outfits.
     
  29. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,639
    Likes Received:
    1
    Just my opinion, but GD and dreadmares should never have been introduced in the game....at least not as tamables. Eventhough, I've said that, I will still use them.
     
  30. Sorry, but my opinion is just as good as yours.

    ANY change to pets or PvP or whatever has an affect on my play even when I don't PvP. Stop trying to have a chilling effect on the conversation by saying only PvPers can have input into this conversation.

    You have yet to put out a convincing argument why Tamers should be nerfed. Until then, I don't agree that there should be a change. Others have been able to handle tamers just fine.

    Before the cry for tamer nerfs, it was necro nerfs, archer herfs, mage nerfs, macer nerfs... will it never end?
     
  31. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    Congratulations for the dumbest post on UHall of the day.

    So let me get this straight. If you don't ever go to fel and attack players with a pet how does my proposal affect you? Please explain.
     
  32. Well, thanks for being rude. But then most of your posts are...

    Your proposal was to remove all pets from PvP. My house is in Felucca... as Morgana pointed out, how would my tamer defend himself in Felucca from another player if he can't use a pet? THAT is how it would affect me.
     
  33. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's if they even have Vet.

    The major problem I see with Tamers in PvP today is that with a minor investment of 210 skill points you can control almost all the high end tamables. Which leaves PLENTY of room to add even more power to the template with your remaining 510 skill points.

    If the use of high end pets required a minimum of at least 300 skill points, that would be a good start, along with lowering the amount of damage they deal, particulary the fire-breathe.
     
  34. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,032
    Likes Received:
    145
    You only go to Fel to get to your house? Doesn't sound like you need to defend yourself. Walk inside.
     
  35. Well, you don't seem to have the mental capacity to see the interactions and explaining them wouldn't change your narrow minded views anyway. You asked how it affected me and I gave one example. I never said that I only went into Felucca to go to my house. I never said that I don't hunt the dungeons there, or gather resources in Felucca... I only said that I don't Pvp on purpose.

    But my point is still valid. ANY change and the change you proposed would affect me. Your idea is a bad one... and one that won't happen anyway.
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    For the none PvPers.
    Current UO PvP state:

    The most powerful mage tamplate: Tamer mage w/Dread warhorse
    The most powerful dexer template: Tamer dexer w/Dread warhorse
    The more powerful archer template: Tamer archer w/ Dread warhorse
    The most powerful stealther template: Tamer stealther animal form w/GDragon

    That pretty much sums it up. If you dont see a trend in there I cant help you.

    Again I dont agree with removing pets from PvP. But some pets are completely retardedly powerful in PvP. Even DEV stated they are looking to balance the pets in PvP. Just like WoD AI archer/Unbreakable nerve strike gimp era, taming "insert a class here" are the new gimplets of the year thanks to GD and dreads. They are all bonded to be fixed one day. Again, I believe pets effectiveness will be greatly reduced in PvP combat, but pets will not be removed from PvP.
     
  37. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Removing pets from PvP all together? :lol:

    No.
    That doesn't even make sense that a tamer would not be able to tell his pet to attack someone. And yes it does affect a tamer who doesn't like to PvP. Why? Because they may at one point enter fel with a pet hoping it will do what it is suppose to do. If a nerf is proposed to tamers, all tamers have a right to put in their opinion regardless. Their class their right.
     
  38. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good post WarUltima

    When the majority of the people you see in Fel are running around on a particular template, it's a good sign that it is overpowered.


    Although I had issues with the "mages online" game that ruled Ultima for so many years. At least when those mages were killing me they had to hit more than 3 buttons to do it.
     
  39. I don't know if those templates are the most powerful in PvP or not. At one time or another there were other templates on the chopping block. Once they nerfed the PvP aspects of "insert a class here" it also nerfed the PvM aspect. BALANCE means that every "class" or "template" has strengths and weaknesses, and none is over powered. Sometimes it takes other strategies to find the weaknesses.

    What I don't want to see is whatever balance is made that it reduces the tamers effectiveness in PvM. I do more damage with my Dexxer, Bard or Archer in PvM than with my tamer in most, but not all, PvM encounters. High end content is not "All Kill" and cast invis, regardless of what some people claim.

    Whatever changes are made to tamers and PvP also need input from the PvM'ers.
     
  40. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    122
    This is the thing see. People want to complain about how a template is overpowered. Which doesn't apply to me since I don't use a tamer for PvP. Anyways, moving on.

    People complain how a template is overpowered in PvP, but then they want to pick their battles with using it in PvM? This isn't Burger King. You can't always have it your way.

    In my opinion, they made the wrong move in the FIRST place by even introducing both of said animals in this thread. I mean come on, even higher possible starting stats than a regular dragon or a regular mare. What were you really thinking?

    As far as said templates...those are all tamer templates. I mean any template with "animal taming" on it is a taming template.

    I think unfortunately there needs to be some more ingenuity at the developer and test level. Aside from all bickering and penny pinching aside...what proposal's do people honestly suggest?

    All it sounds like to me is making tamer templates obsolete...which is funny considering then some people still want to PvM with those same said animals.

    I mean monopolizing a camp area with said creatures can be abusive too, but nobody mentions about that. Quite interesting.
     
  41. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    "And greater dragons aren't really the best pet to use many PvM situations, meaning my cu sidhe or bake/mare/rune beetle/etc. is better."

    Yea, but you dont see them popin a fire breath for 65

    All these other creatures you listed are moderatly easy to kill.

    The Dread Mare and Greater Dragon Shouldnt be tamable
    Current ones should be deleted...
     
  42. I can do more damage with either my Dexxer or Archer in a PVM camp area than any tamer can with a Greater Dragon or Dreadmare. I just don't think they are overpowered in PvM, which really wasn't the Ops point anyway.

    I don't really understand your point here or in the rest of your post. I guess it went over my head... what were you trying to say?
     
  43. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Personally I think tamers and archers are the bane of UO.

    Those 2 templates do nothing but reward lazy, no skill playstyles.

    The Devs at UO really need to get a clue and make it so that lazy no RL skill templates are weak and more complex templates that actually require timing and RL skill are more powerful.
     
  44. I don't disagree with the fire breath doing 65 damage in PvP... but Archers can do that also. Not breath fire, but that much damage.

    As far as deleting pets, that's not going to happen. White Wyrms, regular dragons and mares were nerfed once before by reducing and capping stats and hit points. You may have not been around then, but they were of similar power to the GD and Dreadmare. I think the reason that the Greater and the Dreadmare were introduced was to compete with the over powered weapons being dropped by crafters' runics. At least I think that was the reasoning. Before that, weren't archer's the "overpowered" PvP template of the day? Or was it the necro-mage? People were complaining about both.
     
  45. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    21,553
    Likes Received:
    3,840
    /sign
     
  46. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Likes Received:
    122
    What was I trying to say?

    1. That people complain but offer very little valid solutions...hence that they like to complain which you put in your last response.

    2. That people would like to use pets however they want except god forbid they get "nerfed" in PvM play as well. I mean for me to use a Greater Dragon and easily tank Paragon balrons and paragon cu's with...a little more difficulty...then yes, that is overpowered in the PvM arena as well.

    3. More damage per hit doesn't always constitute = stronger. What you can kill...does.

    4. Intelligently knowing what an animal can do BEFORE it is introduced...It is why they have beta and do testing, isn't it? Aside from fixing bugs I would hope.

    Oh almost forgot.

    5. And, that any template with anything like stealth or fighting could constitute anything else aside from a tamer template. I mean they are using a mare or greater dragon so...tamer template.
     
  47. thechoppa

    thechoppa Guest

    I would agree to let the pets in pvp under theses conditions:

    Max skills points a player can have is 720. In a player vs player situation, there should be 720 point, max on each side. You cant push buttons for your life? You need a pet to decide for you to cast a flame strike or whatever? So be it, but the total of your side of "player" should be the same as the non tamer fighting you. Your pet runs around with 400 skill points? Then you have 320 to use.

    Same goes for strenght (125) dex (125) and intel (125), splitted between the tamer and his pets.

    For your resists (phys, fire, cold, poison, energy), you put armor on, same should go for your pet. UO should create pet armor that you could gather on pets of the same kind in tram. Someone kills your pet? He gets insurance for the armor. If not insured, the pet armor falls on the ground.

    At this moment, pets casting spells can't be disturbed. You should have to choose if your pet has protection on (0 fast cast and -20 physical) or not. And of course, 12 tiles max for the casting range of your pet.

    I know that sounds stupid, but it is certainly not as stupid as having to player vs player when you have 125 hit points on your side and more then 1000 on the tamer side.

    *Waits for the tamer community to, as usual, step up, say it makes no sens, that they worked hard on that skill, so its normal to have benefits, etc.*
     
  48. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest


    You're not arguing the real problem. The problem isn't the pets, their stats or their abilities.

    It's the fact that with UOA you can practically auto-dismountpet, then arm xbow dismount special and hit you almost instantly. That's what's overpowered. I used to regularly kill tamers 1v1 on a necro mage using 1 or 2 para fields. works wonders.

    of course, the speed that some pets move is ridiculous. that could use some tweaking. overall, I don't see a real problem with pets.
     
  49. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, you are mis-informed. There's no way in hell an archer can dish out 65 damage in PvP to someone w/straight 70s. Try 35 to 40. Unless you have no magic resist skill and go PvP completely naked, then 65 in 1 shot is possible.

    Besides, when an archer shoot someone, they do NOT melee hit THEN throw two flame strikes all in 2 seconds. Pets casting is instant, and they double cast (casting 2 spells at a time) and they also can cast while moving around.

    A more realistic attack combo a GD/Dreadmare can dish out in 2-3 seconds is...
    Melee hit(45dmg), FS (35) FS(35), Firebreathe (65). All these can be done before the player can leave it's casting range that's around 2 to 3 seconds.
    That's 180 damage in roughly the same time where an archer can fire 2 shots (assuming the archer is standing still and the victim didnt run AT ALL). Us PvPers see GDs/Dreadmares instantly killing players, and btw the 180 damage did not include the 30ish damage and all the moving shot you are going to take from the dismount shot from a tamer archer or an additional Exp FS that tamer mage (he will curse you which will increase the GD damage output from 180 to 200) will also be casting on you.

    Bushido tamers can dish out more damage over time against a MOB only, while GD/Gmare can dish out much much more than a fully decked out player can take and more than likely instant killing him/her within a few seconds "IF the tamer has done he's part of the work right". (I know it's confusing for none PvP tamers to understand, but I really dont want to explain it any further).

    Greater dragons and Dreadmares should have never been designed so that they work on players.

    Simply put, these two pets are introduced in game to take on mobs with 100000+ HP, not something with just 100.
     
  50. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    If you're going to nerf pets then nerf all specials.

    Getting tired of listing to all this bs about pets.

    They are so slow that it isn't funny.

    If you're not good enough to get away from walk speed opponents then you should be playing something else.

    I see specials as being a lot more over powered than pets. Period.