1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Question about Looting rights and Bards (re:artifacts drops...)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, Jan 23, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Often, in the game, some artifacts are spawned in players' backpacks with higher chances at a drop for those with higher looting rights.

    Now, especially for high end Bosses, often it is advisable to have a discord Bard to help reduce the length of the fight.

    The question is, how exactly do barding skills help the Bard towards getting looting rights for artifacts drops at the end of the fight ?

    I mean, I can understand provoking anything onto the Boss, the damage done to the Boss I would imagine (but am not sure...) would go towards the Bard's credit for looting right.

    But what about when using peacemaking on the Boss ? What about using discord ?

    Bottom line is, how is looting rights' damage credit handled by the game engine when it comes to Bardic skills ?

    A full Bard can possibly have 4x 120 invested in Bardic skills so I would hope all those points spent in bardic skills in the end did something to help towards gaining looting rights when using them....

    Thanks.
     
  2. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Interesting question popps, I don't think I've ever seen that one before. Like a group of mages constantly casting paralize while a dex'r takes it out, I'd bet they all get nothing.
    Try something easier and see if you get any fame/karma - if so, then you're getting some/partial credit for the kill. If not, it'd be because you didn't do any damage which is what the Devs stated it was based on.
    I made the shovel that mined the ore that built the axe that killed the titan and I got nothing(from the poem, house that jack built). I'm sure the Devs thought of this when they wrote to keep things even and fair, as usual
     
  3. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    235
    Discord and Peace effects do not have any bearing on looting rights, as they do not deal damage. The damage done by bardic masteries is credited to the bard for damage dealt and looting rights. The bard will have to find ways to deal damage to the target to receive looting rights, just as everyone else does.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  4. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    32
    Best way is to have some way to deal damage yourself. Music/Discord/Provoke/Peace takes 400 to 480 points. You still have 300 to 220 points for offensive skills like magery/med (use mindblast), taming/lore, myst/focus. Alternate this with use from a firehorn.

    If you need more offensive power, drop one of the bard skills to get eval/vet/spellweaving depending on which template you use.

    You can also use Tribulation from Discord mastery.

    If you really just want to avoid aggroing the boss, then party up with folks that deal damage. But this won't get you artifact drops.



    You are not asking for getting arties without actually pulling aggro and hurting the bosses right?
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461

    The thing is, that other characters can have the freedom to have their skill points invested into dealing the most damage and so, raise to the top of the "high damagers' list" the fastest or the easiest. Bards, instread, who are stuck with a good chunk of their points invested into bardic skills like discord or peacemaking which do advantage all of the rest of the fighters, help the fight considerably without getting anything back or, not as much as other hunters can get, thanking to their higher freedom to invest skill points into dealing the most damage.

    I find this an inbalancing thing and something should be done to somehow factor in also bardic skills use like peacemaking or discordance for damage done and looting rights.

    There is always a work around that players eventually find but my point is, that bards who invest 4 skills should not just get looting rights back from merely one of them (provocation), but also from the others....
     
  6. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461

    Looting rights is calculated in comparison (or versus) other players who might be focusing their template on doing heavy damage (i.e. take up all of the skills which can help skyrocket damage the most...) and so always be the top hitters of the list.

    A bard who takes up discord and peacemake even when having "some" damage doing skills still might be hitting at a handicap since part of the template is hosting skills which bring nothing back as far as damage done for looting rights goes.

    Yet, their peacemaking and their discord do help the hunt and the fight for all participants and quite some......

    So, they make the fight easier and shorter for all but get nothing back or hardly as much as other hitters for all of their valuable help ?

    How right is this ?
     
  7. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    Healing and discord and other skills should count toward looting rights. This is not something that is going to happen for UO. I no longer believe changes like this can be added to the game. I don't believe the resource alloted to the team allow things like this any longer.

    I'm one of the people who play bards. I can make them do anything. I don't rely on the 4 bard skills however like many of these threads try to use as their reasons for bard additions. Use complimentary skills to get loot rights. That will suffice for my "bards are already powerful enough" rant.

    As an example; I have a bard that uses magery. Mind blast will get you loot rights. It does not rely on eval so there is room to add 100 points into any bard template. On top of that imbuing has allowed me to make spell channeling mage weapon bows. This gives me additional damage output and doesn't interrupt my bard masteries or affects.

    It boils down to the fact you are going to have to use your complimentary skills to do what you ask for. If you wish to keep trying to get more out of the bards from the devs you are asking for something that is not going to happen.
     
  8. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461

    I have it clear that Bards do have ways to do "some" damage to the target and so "try" earn some looting rights. The real question is though, IMHO, in regards to the circumstance that Bards often might have to compare their damage with that of other hunters hitting the same one Boss.

    That is, for looting rights, I wonder if the damage that bards can do, while peacemaking and discording besides hitting the target with some other skill for damage, can ever be comparable to the damage that templates that invested heavily on damage output can instead do.

    What I am trying to say here, is that Bards might be playing at a loss, with a handicap, when it comes to totalling damage done for looting rights......
     
  9. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    I understand the question but don't understand the reasoning. Bard will never do the damage output of a tamer or a dexxer. They should not. They have their abilities that give them advantages in other areas. Would you ask for something to allow a sampire to stop all monsters from attacking for a time like peacemanking does? This is in effect what you are asking for.

    I have to admit I'm having trouble understanding why you think a bard should be able to do as much damage as a character that spends all its points and gear to achieve top damage. Again, it's the equivalent of asking for a thief ability that deals as much damage as a dexxer by using stealing or stealthing. If you are looking to be the top damage dealer you cannot play a bard. It's that simple.
     
  10. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    30
    What he said. The Archer Bard, one of my first loves in UO. I still hold a lil candle for him today. He could stand back and shoot a dancing dragon while he stood in the middle of 8 of them all attacking each other to his tunes. Post AoS he never even upgraded his armour. GM was all he needed. Same rings true to today. Sampires may deal the uber damage on the front line, but a bard can be nice and care free with daffodils and an instrument, while watching the Sampire repair his armour and spend a few mill on equipment every now and then.
     
  11. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    235
    You are not alone trying to understand why he wants a bard to do as much damage as a character geared for single target damage output.

    The purpose of the bardic skills is not to do damage. Their real strength lies in the ability to manipulate targets and control battlefields. Phantus, you are right on the money here.

    Popps, if you think bards are not getting a fair shake, I suggest you kick some of the loot their way. Take it upon yourself to reward them for their assistance. They will make a point to help you in future fights.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  12. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Then I am afraid that the system of looting rights awarding higher chance of a drop to the "top" hitters ain't the proper way to reward involvement in a fight and some brain storming should surface better ideas on how to reward each participant's involvement in a battle more fairly....

    Well, since we are not talking about a crafting skill but of a skill that finds in PvM most if not all of its reasons to exist (mages, dexers can also enjoy PvP, a bard cannot much...), I would hope that its abilities to also share the goodies (artifact drops) could be at least comparable to the other characters hitting the target regardless of the damage done...

    Otherwise, not only Bards would be at a handicap for not being much a viable PvP template, but also for being a PvM template playing at a loss, or with a handicap if you will, when it comes to get looting rights that grant higher chance at a good drop.
     
  13. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    If we were to give bards looting rights of any sort for peacing or discording, let's consider what that would translate to in game. It would mean that a bard with no armour or equipment beyond a simple instrument could run around anywhere that folk were fighting and bard something, take no risk or do any damage and still get looting rights.

    Nekkid bards ftw!

    Put it this way, I would be facing some real temptation if this got in. I have a tamer with disco and provo already. So the pets give me a good chunk of power and offensive capability. And with the looting rights you suggest, I could run around barding spawn that everyone is fighting and reaping rewards + the ones my pet(s) earned. Without doing any damage to the spawn. Without taking any risk.

    My response to a bard who peaces anything I'm attacking or taming is "please don't peace" because it's disruptive when peace wears off while you're at close range fighting or taming something. I don't really think it's a great idea to reward players for doing this by offering loot.

    I would actually stop discoing spawn for others because I do that to help them. I don't want to take loot from players that I didn't work for. That would be a cheap tactic much like taking a couple of swings with a warrior when spawn is nearly dead. I prefer disco because it doesn't reward me and it doesn't make a monster retarget like peace does. I can help someone or their pet by discoing spawn, but I don't rob them of any loot unless I do damage. I don't want to be perceived as a greedy bard looking for some extra loot.

    BTW, bards already have an offensive ability, it's called provoke. Combined with disco it works just fine. It's not as powerful as it used to be, but it's fit for purpose as it is tbh. Perhaps a shorter timer between uses would make it less hair raising in heavy spawn, but I quite enjoy the madness :D

    Honestly... nobody is forced into playing one template or another, we all choose what we want. I love my bards. I have the option to train any template I want or soulstone things instantly to remodel chars. So this whole "but you commit skill points" thing is a very poor argument. You aren't stuck with a template as you were pre soulstones. There isn't a "commitment" unless you choose to make it.

    Wenchy
     
  14. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461

    Well, I am not sure that depending on others' "good will" for their special items' share is the right way to go when it is most always "others", the top damage doers, getting that special drop in their backpacks.....

    I mean, I just do not see why a Bard, any Bard should depend on whether their fellow hunters may want or not to give some of the special loot out to them.

    Much better to earn their own as a drop in their backpack without wondering whether the goodies are being fairly shared or not.

    But of course, to achieve this then the system should change from the current way of determining who gets the highest chances at a drop into something else where damage done is not the only determinant........
     
  15. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461

    How about having it as a "special bonus" to pure bards who invested some 480 skill points in all of the 4 bardic skills (real skill not with items...) thus not having much room for other damage doing skills ?

    Problem is, that when it comes to Bosses without much really damaging spawn around provoke does not help really much with damage done and looting rights.....

    Well, still, I think that templates should be also viable on their own and not just as a "hobby playing" template kind-of-sort.......

    I mean, for the "serious" stuff to get that special item drop use a sampire or a dexer or a tamer or whatever and then for some "hobby playing" to just mess around use a bard.....

    No thanks.

    I think that Bards should be capable to earn items to players "just alike" and if this means being able to surge to top hitters well, then Bards should be able, using their bardic skills, to surge that top hitters list somehow.

    Otherwise, the system that awards drops should be changed from top hitters to something else, more fair.
     
  16. Peacemaking is a skill dedicated to not fighting, well you can log out/stay hidden and achieve that.

    Bards can do damage for rights with Provke, Discord mastery's and Firehorns, thats it.

    I don't believe there's degrees of rights based on damage. I think you either have rights and a chance at a drop or you don't. My characters are often the max damage for their class but I don't get a higher rate of drops than noobs. Wish it did work like that, but it doesn't in my experience.
     
  17. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    In part I agree. The problem is this leads to other problems. There should be an advantage to putting the time and effort needed to be the top damage dealer. If there wasn't you would just see people using the minimal amount of effort to get the same reward as those who spend a great deal more. The only problem with this is there should be a system in place to monitor when a person does not receive a reward for the killing of a boss and give a bonus on the next attempt.

    If you want to PvP with a bard then you have a real problem. You can make a pvp bard template but it will not be as effective as others. This is never ever going to change.

    I've done my best to explain these things to you popps without attacking as many usually do to you on the forums. I usually stay out of your threads because of the one track mind syndrome you display often. It looks as though you don't understand that a bard will never be the top damage dealer because they make up for that in other ways. If you cannot grasp this then there is nothing left to respond to.
     
  18. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    It has been stated in the past in regards to dark father drops that the top damage dealer gets an advantage to receiving an artifact. There have been many content additions where rewarding monsters give out based on damage. The invasions where you got the books with mods in the past is perfect example. Those gave rewards only to the top 3 attackers.
     
  19. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    30
    Oh man up Popps.

    I can get looting rights on a naked thief and a mostly naked tinker. I am sure a bard with 4 awesome pvm skills + 3 skills of whatever he chooses isn't going to have a problem getting looting rights.

    Bards are in no way at a disadvantage and to be frank can solo the guards with comfort, ease and nudity given the right template.
     
  20. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    No. You choose to make the template you want, if it doesn't do enough damage then you can change it or just accept the limitations. It would be like me saying "I put 460 skill into my 120 tamer with GM herding, I want to get looting rights for loring stuff". We have instant soulstones and imbued skill + items...I could feasibly fit all 4 bard skills onto a tamer.

    This is when I'd also look to the other skills on the template. I prefer tamers, but there are pet options for non tamers and a whole range of other skills to complete a bard template.

    Oh so a tamer with a greater dragon and up to 4 bard skills if I wanted peace...that's not going to work for "serious" stuff? And that's just the first idea I had based on changing out vet on my tamer bard if I wanted to put peace on there.

    If all you want is looting rights and items, it isn't that hard. You don't need to be the top damaging template to do that. And the top damaging templates are often those which get "balanced" AKA "nerfed" so IMO being just below that top mark is the best spot.

    The reason I made my bard tamer with provo and disco was specifically so she could work a spawn without her pets or alongside them. For example she solos all the cu sidhe to turn spawn over, provos the paragons on each other and then she can tame any good pups she spawns. All done with just an instrument. Sometimes done in a wussy luck suit because she forgot to change.

    I like the system as it is. I know a player who has gotten looting rights on bosses with a thief and on bane guards with the same thief and his tinker. Hardly the most fearsome classes, but with a bit of ingenuity and creativity, you don't need to be a tamer or sampire to do well in UO. Spellweaving would be another useful skill for a pure bard given the summons and dryad allure and of course word of death and the gift of renewal/life support too.

    I find it quite funny that in UO nowadays with all the items, skills and pets we have at our disposal, we seem to stick to fewer and fewer stock templates and tactics. Preferring to copy what others do rather than try things out and use knowledge to improve templates.

    Wenchy
     
  21. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    There's a template for nudity? o_O

    Streakers of UO rejoice!

    Wenchy
     
  22. Thats not the same thing and doesn't apply to most drops. Those are garunteed drops. What I'm saying is the damage done isn't weighted when giving the reward. Take Navrey for example, if two people go at it and one is hitting over 200, the other is hitting 50, they both get rights but one has done the majority of the work. If there's a drop at all its still 50/50 who gets it, it isn't weighted for the person putting in the most effort/or done the most work.

    The devs state things based on looking at code, not playing UO, and code can not work how it says it does.

    In my experience most of the drops I've had haven't been when I'm on the most powerful template of its class.
     
  23. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    /agree
     
  24. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    30
    Streakers. The new Sampires tbh.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I took a 2 yr break from UO so I don't know if this has changed.

    It used to be that AE peace wiped out the damage record. In other words, a late AE peace followed by burst dmg can greatly modify the dmg record. it's not a good thing, but I'm pretty sure this is still how it works.
     
  26. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    My biggest beef with the current barding rules is the number of high end mobs COMPLETELY immune to the bardic skills. That is by no means fair.
     
  27. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,457
    Likes Received:
    582
    BTW, folks - all you popps bashers need to step back and reread....

    NOWHERE did popps say in his original post he wanted a bard to do damage with his non-provo skills to get looting rights -

    That leap of illogic, putting words into popps' mouth he didn't say, starts with phantus, and the rest of you were all too eager to jump on the bandwagon. Apologies and edits are in order.

    He noted that Bards do get credit for provo damage.
    His question was did peace or disco give any sort of credit (like damage does) for the looting process (which of course, they do not).


    On the original subject, not only are mind blast and SC mage weapon bows good ideas for additional damage, so are summons. Like Mind Blast, Invisibility and the healing/curing spells, Summons don't require eval. You can also provo monsters onto your summons, to get them to change targets. With the warning flag turned off, you can even cast on the controllable summons to heal them.

    My mage had trouble when in a party of 4-6 of getting looting rights on peerless like Mel & DH, just casting spells with high SDI and GM inscription. Once I stopped casting damage spells, and switched to two summons and a SC Mage weapon bow, I started getting looting rights 100% of the time. It even worked against the Grizzle, despite the tendency of summons to die quickly from the acid.

    These same tactics (summons+bow, even if the summons are just blade spirits) should work fine for a disco/peace bard/mage without provo or Eval Int...
     
  28. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,457
    Likes Received:
    582
    True, but if you test some of them, a few of them are immune from being provoked, but can still have other things provoked ONTO them. Or, can still be discoed, even if you can't provoke them. In some cases, area peace can make some of these hesitate, when they totally ignore attempts to peace just them.

    I doubt that much of this was intentional, though.

    Quick aside to Sarphus: I've never known Area Peace to wipe the damage record. What can wipe the damage record, is the creature totally rehealing, or a person's contribution can be wiped from crossing a server line (like, recalling for bandages and coming back), or logging out and back in (typically, has to be a full logout (such as in a home), or things like connection loss where the person times out before they can log back in).
     
  29. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I don't give a rats ass if you are a mod or not. Don't tell me how to post unless I break a rule. I said what I wanted to say.
     
  30. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    30
    They are. Apologize and edit your post. :thumbsup:
     
  31. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,882
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    Looting rights for bards have been discussed and explained before. All bards are fully aware of them before they train the skill. Please consult the bard forum for further explanations.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.