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Question about the moons for those who played U1-9

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Trebr Drab, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    In UO, the moons change phases as we watch them in a single night. From what I can tell, they did so also in the Cardinal Ultima games, but I wanted to confirm that with anyone who played them and knows.

    A second question is, has there ever been any theories (or lore) on how this happens? It would seem that there has to be another heavenly body out there that is invisible to us to cause this.
     
  2. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Yes, it was the same. Rapid phase changes to facilitate moongate travel.

    This is pure game mechanics without any lore. Trying to retcon in lore for this would only lead to issues with logic and the nature of the Sosarian planetary system.
     
  3. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Thanks for the reply, Martina.
    Once again I have to disagree with you on the "logic" issue, this being a fantasy game and all. However, I also have to concede that it often becomes pure speculation. Then again, I like pure speculation, it's just fun in a fantasy setting. (And who knows, it might give a Dev an idea or two.)

    Oh, and the ever obligatory "grrr":grrr: to you, just for fun.
     
  4. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    If they didn't change phase that fast in-game everyone would be up in arms that they have to wait X game days to go somewhere else.
     
  5. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    :sword:

    Even fantasy has to have some internal logic to it, or you're just left with a bunch of silliness and pointy ears.

    For Trammel and Felucca to change phase as fast as they do, even taking into account the 12:1 time differential, they would be whipping around Sosaria at a ridiculous clip. So fast, in fact, that they would have been flung off into space long ago.

    Sometimes we just have to suspend disbelief and accept game mechanics.


    :coco:


    Exactly. Before the menu driven moongates we have now, we used to just run through gates multiple times hoping that we were sent where we wanted to go.

    While 'breaking' Ultima cannon, the current moongates are definately more player friendly.
     
  6. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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  7. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Maybe.

    Simple human nature trends toward the laziest options. Even though I live literally steps away from the Yew moongate, I still recall nearly everwhere due to convenience/time.

    Before the moongates were given their menus, there was a more regional economy. Yew, at least on GL, was one of the strongest. Massive strip malls like Luna and Zento completely killed what was left of economies.
     
  8. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Oh, come come now. Let me provide you with a "pure speculation" that fits everything, requires the fantasy nature of a game like this, and fits into Ultima lore.

    Let me start with a question or two....
    When those who have done so have looked into a Shard at the world of Sosaria, has there ever been any mention of seeing any moons over the lands? Has the view been distant enough to include the moons in that "plane" of existence?

    I propose, just pure speculation mind you, that the world within the shards does not include the moons. That they are outside of the captured plane that the world within exists on.

    If that were the case, then what we see in the sky is from the prime world, but perhaps changed. There would be some sort of etherial membrane between the shard world and the prime world outside, and that membrane may cause distortions. The time variations can be explained by this. So may the moongate's functions, as they are made of moonlight, and passing through this membrane that separates realities could have almost any affect, like light passing through a prism.

    This proposed explanation I do not claim as fact. I'm just saying that it makes "sense" in this world within a world.
     
  9. FishinFool

    FishinFool Guest

    I only played up until U6, roughly an hour would pass in game time for every move on the world map. From what I remember, this was on a fairly full lunar cycle. Gates would open only at night and you could conceivably be sitting waiting for quite some time if you wanted to go somewhere specific. It was faster to move there yourself.

    However, the passage of time in those games was not relevent to anything else.

    The process was sped up massively for UO.
     
  10. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Also remember one of the Ultima Worlds games was set in a steampunk Mars, and Mars' moons have orbits measured in hours. It could be that, combined with the roughtly 1 hour per step move in the earlier games, that the Martian moons were always meant as the basis for Trammel & Felucca.
     
  11. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    This is actually how I have chosen to look at the shards vs Sosaria Prime. The shards are simply portals to the other versions of Sosaria that exist in the same space as Sosaria Prime. (i.e. they frame drag along with the original world.)

    The shattering of the Gem didn't create a multiverse, per se, just echoes of the planet. We (UO I mean) are the echoes.

    The moons being outside them shards works for me, and since we already accept the wonkiness of time this is as good an explanation as any.


    Re: Mars
    Mars is roughly half the size of Earth and it's moons are considerably smaller than Luna - hence their ability to be speedy.

    In Ultima IX, the only game to truly show the moons, they appeared analogous to Luna in size.


    Now, we know that Sosaria was considerably larger before the shattering. Four entire continents disappeared. We have a few of them as facets now, but they aren't accessible from the water.

    What if the other continents are still here, just the planet's dimensions folded in on themselves...thus making the planet smaller from the perspective of any outside observer.

    This could account for two things:
    1) How the moons are known to exist over the other facets.
    2) How the moons are able to zoom around the planet at what would be an obscene speed for satellites of their probable size.

    In essence, the moons are orbiting a very small planet whose perception of time is being warped by the dimensional folds.
     
  12. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Isn't the orbital speed for a moon determined more by proximity than size?
     
  13. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    It would be both. The larger the moon, the farther it would have to be to maintain the orbit, or else it's weight and gravity would pull it into the planet.
     
  14. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Hmm, Martyna, that gives me a couple of thoughts. So the Shattering caused what we might think of as a "reverberation" that was captured in the Shards? Only instead of thinking sound, convert that thought into light, captured visions, or parts of, or distorted, visions of Sosaria. Reflections, distorted by the shard's size and shape, captured within.

    The idea that the smaller worlds within shards cause the speed up of the moons is interesting. But that would mean that the moons are physically part of the Shard's plane of existence. So I like my "etherial membrane" time distortion theory better. But still, yours is worth considering.

    ---------

    One final thought. The light of the moons create moongates. Could it be that this same power, reflecting the worlds as the prime world was shattered, are how each is created as a shard?
    Prime world shatters-explosion of etherial nature, and the light of which travels to the moons, reflects back, and is captured by shards. The light sort of "settles" back where it came from, but since that point of origin is no longer what it was, but rather many shards of various sizes and shapes, gets distorted as it's captured. Thus are born many changed worlds of Sosaria, visions carried by the light of the moons, and captured by their changed origins in the shards.

    This, in turn, makes me think of when Nystul created Trammel.
    Nystul:
    "I stood at the largest of the stone structures in Britain as I opened the tome and started. All over the land I could sense the other structures ignite with life and burst to the heavens above. Pure energy as I have never felt in all of my years of arcane studies tore through me; cradled me in its grasp. I pulsed with the magic, drew it into me. Then released it into the night sky. As the incantation neared completion, a moonstone fell from a pouch on my belt and landed on the ground. After a few seconds, the moonstone buried itself in the ground and an unusual looking moongate sprung into being in its place. I felt myself being drawn into the strange moongate. What occurred next is possibly beyond even the bards to put into words. The air split and shifted. In one breath I was staring into an endless torrent of light, the next I was looking over a pristine landscape. The world I had always dreamed of. Our world. With a silent roar of thunder my consciousness slid from my grasp."
    Casting the Spell
     
  15. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    How long were days in Ultima games?
     
  16. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
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    Uhm no... In our universe, Newton's law of gravitation says otherwise!
    The orbit of a moon is completely independent from its mass.
    All bodies fall with the same acceleration :)
     
  17. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Guys.... go outside.
     
  18. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Why, is there an eclipse?
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    That's not true. Mass does come into play, along with speed, distance and gravity. But now that I've done some research, I can't find an answer to how much it comes into play in regards to moons.

    I did find this...
    "So does the mass of the planet have a significant impact upon its orbital period (or orbital speed) about some star? Given that planets are by definition almost always much less massive than the stars they orbit, the practical answer is "NO." Is there any effect? Well, yes of course there is, since the force of gravity does consider the masses of pairs of objects. Look at Newton's corrected version of Kepler's 3rd law again. It does indeed include the masses of both objects. What if Jupiter with its mass of 318 Earths orbited the Sun at Earth's location rather than Earth (ignoring the presence of nearby Mars and Venus)? Well, then the mass correction factor would be 1.000955 instead of that of 1.000003 for Earth. In that case the orbital period of Jupiter in Earth's orbit would be a tiny, tiny amount shorter (1.000476 times shorter). How the sum of the two masses comes into Kepler's 3rdlaw delves into physical concepts that are beyond this class."

    But the sun is so much larger that the combined mass doesn't make much difference. I just can't find anything like this on planets related to moons. And I don't want to do the math involved in this. heh
     
  20. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    As I recall, the attractive force between two bodies is MmG/d^2, where M and M are the masses, G is the gravitational constant, and d is the distance between their centres of gravity. Since the acceleration of a body = force/mass, then the acceleration is certainly not affected by the mass of the body.

    This is Newtonian physics, but it is close enough to observed data to make relativistic correction unnecessary at planetary distances.
     
  21. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Er... sort of. What I meant was that Sosaria Prime actually shrunk in size to just what is now called Britannia. The three other continents were 'lost' into dimensional folds. They are still part of the planet, but no longer a continuous part of its surface - they exist in little pockets of their own.

    Viola a possible explanation for the retconned 'facets,' since we now they aren't "additional distorted versions of the Britannian continent” on the same shard.

    Perhaps the shift in Sosaria's apparent size yanked the moons into closer orbits. Since the shrinkage and dimensional folding occured on all versions of the planet, Prime included, the moons could still be outside of the shard 'bubbles.'
     
  22. FishinFool

    FishinFool Guest

    Couldnt say for certain, but I believe 24 hours. I seem to recall them using military time. Could be wrong.
     
  23. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Standard Earth 24 hour days, 7 day weeks. The months were even named the same.

    Garriot wasn't very creative when some of this minutia was established. :mf_prop:
     
  24. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
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    OK, I forgot to consider that two bodies of comparable mass will orbit around their common center of mass, and the orbital period will depend on the sum of the masses.
    However, most moons are much much smaller than their planet, so this correction is also negligible.

    There are only two notable exceptions in our solar system:

    - our own Moon! It is quite large compared to the Earth, its mass is only 81 times smaller. This gives a mass correction factor of 1.0123, resulting in an orbital period shorter by a factor 1.006. Still a very small effect.

    - Pluto's moon, Charon, is the moon with the largest mass compared to its planet. In fact Charon is so large (about 1/8th of Pluto) that many astronomers even propose to consider them a binary planet system instead of a planet+moon. However, even in this case the correction factor to the orbital period is just 1.057
     
  25. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    *runs home with his ten foot pole and hides it so as to prevent it from coming anywhere near this thread*