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Question about the Semmerset’s Re-Forging Charts

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by popps, Apr 20, 2014.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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  2. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Those charts show max value you can get with a runic tool. With higher tools you can get max possible (reforge-able) value in any property.
     
  3. popps

    popps Always Present
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    But they only specifically list dull copper, shadow and copper runics...at least that I could read....
     
  4. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    For example, for Luck max possible value is 150. You can't reforge 151+. You can reforge 150 with a Copper hammer. So you can reforge 150 with any higher hammer.

    With a Bronze hammer you can reforge X. You know that X >= 150 and X <= 150. X = ?
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If 150 is the max CAP with Luck, and I can get it with a Copper Runic, why on earth would I want to use a Valorite runic to do what I can do with a Copper Runic ?

    Or are you saying that using Bronze or more, which is higher than Copper, one could actually "break" the CAP and reforge for 151 luck or more ?

    If so, then why there is no data for reforging Bronze and higher when breaking the CAPs ?

    I still do not understand it....
     
  6. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    150 is THE CAP. You cannot reforge anything above that.

    Here's why you use something bigger than a copper hammer.

    With a copper hammer, you cannot get 2 properties at the cap without making something brittle/cannot repair, it is simply not possible. Lets say you want 150 Luck AND 4MR. You need to use a bigger hammer.
     
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  7. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    The low level runic tools (listed in the charts) are the most common tools used in Reforging. The reason they are the most common is that they apply 1-2 properties on an item, leaving room to further Imbue the item. It has been my observation that the Reforging Results follow the same general progression of the number of properties given here: http://uo2.stratics.com/items/magic-item-properties/runic-bonuses (with the most coming from a Valorite Hammer). If you are trying to make a custom item, it is easier to contend with two random results, than three or four. Reforging with a Bronze Hammer can easily produce an item with 3 max properties, which cannot be Imbued because it is over the total property cap.

    Test Center provides an excellent arena if you want to expand on @semmerset 's findings. You will also find that some property groups cannot be selected when using Inspired or Sublime Artifice with higher level runic (e.g. Auspicious/of Fortune). For those that cannot be selected, you have to hope they are applied as one of the additional random properties from the runic tool. I am certain I have seen this information either in the Reforging How To thread or elsewhere in the forum.
     
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  8. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    It's very bad idea to use something higher than Copper if you want just 150 Luck. No one does.
     
  9. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Reforging How To. The second post in the topic. :)
     
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  10. popps

    popps Always Present
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    From reading the various posts I get to understand that If I use a runic higher then copper, I "risk" getting an item with 3 properties all maxed out which, because of having reached the imbuing weight, can no longer be imbued with another 2 properties.
    So, I get an item with only 3 properties rather then max 5 achievable........

    This is why, most players just use as high as copper and then imbue the rest of wanted properties up to 5.

    Ok, seems to make sense.

    Now, if the above makes sense, and there is no logic reason for using anything above copper because otherwise the reforged item can no longer be imbued, then why on earth there would be anyone wanting to reforge with anything above a copper runic ???
     
  11. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If an item can host 5 properties, why would any player just stop at having only 1 property with 150 luck on an item ??

    Ain't it always better to have as many properties as allowed on an item (I guess the max per item is 5, right ?) and all of them as high as possible ?

    So why would anyone just stop at having only 1 property, Luck 150, or an item ??

    I do not understand it.
     
  12. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    You can imbue other properties. There is no any sense to reforge two properties if you can imbue one of them. (It's true for metal runics. For tailor/carpentry runic there is possible a situation - for example, spinned runic is not enough to get 150 luck and horned runic is too power to get 150 luck without other mod).
     
  13. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, the same logic could then also apply for 1 property....

    If it makes no sense to reforge 2 properties because one can just imbue the second property, then why not just imbue ALL properties and leave reforging alone, not use it althougether ??

    From what I understand, we want to use reforging, rather than imbuing, because imbuing can only go up to a certain property intensity, reforging, can go OVER the imbuing max intensity possible....

    So, with imbuing it is never possible to get any of the 5 properties to the same intensity that it is possible through reforging.

    This said, why then stop at reforging 1 property only ? Why not reforge 2 properties, 3 properties and have them all EXCEED the intensity that one could obtain through imbuing ?

    My question is, why is it that players usually are happy with jusy 1 property be reforged thus exceeding the imbuing max intensity possible and then imbue the remaining 4 properties only up to whatever imbuing max is possible given the imbuing weight of the item ?

    Why in most cases players do not go for 2 or even 3 reforges thus having not just 1, but 2 or even 3 properties be able to receive reforging intensity quite higher than whatever can be achieved through mere imbuing ??

    So, for leather or stone armor in order to max out a luck suit one is obliged to use horned runics ??
     
  14. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    The reason that everyone doesn't try to reforge an item to have, say, all 5 properties at >100% intensity is the scarcity of the resource to do so. Couple that with the probability that you actually get JUST the mix of properties that you want, and it's simply a numbers game.

    There have been posts in other threads about people who DO in fact take this route. They take a barbed kit, for instance, pick 1 title, and then hope the rest fall out in a way that they can use the item.

    Copper hammers are something like 1000x easier to come by than valorite hammers are.
     
  15. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    1. First of all, usually there is no reason to have overcapped values for properties. I can imbue 8 MI and 8 SI on an armor piece. If I reforge 10 MI then I will be able to imbue 6 SI only. In some cases you want to maximize one mod (for example, SI or Luck) and you need one overcapped property on each item. Maximizing two mods (for example, SI and Luck) would leave you with very poor values for other important mods making a suit become a useless crap.

    2. In some cases it would be nice to have two overcapped mods (for example, 96 HML and 96 HLL on a leafblade). But usually it haven't sense due to limited total intensity. For example, 96 HML + 96 HLL + SuperSlayer = 438 intensity. This mean you can imbue only 30 HSL and 1 DI - so you need to get 100 DI from armor/jewels that makes the suit become a crap.

    3. But let's imagine that you don't worry about DI and still want to get 96 HML and 96 HLL. I don't remember exact formula but you probably can get this with agapite+ runic tool. If you use agapite then you will get 4-5 mods.
    You need about 8 tools to get 96 HML or HLL. So you probably need about 8*8 = 64 tools to get 96 HML and 96 HLL. And the rest two mods must be HSL and Slayer to suit you. Let us suppose that chances to get them both are 1 to 100. So you will need 6400 tools to get a weapon with 96 HML, 96 HLL, some HLS, any slayer, base exceptional DI.
     
  16. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I had just come back to this thread to post something exactly like this... I was at lunch or I probably would have gotten it typed up first :sword:
     
  17. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Thank you for the clarification. From your explaination, my understanding is therefore that using a higher runic tool than copper is not advisable for the reasons explained. Is that so ?

    If I understood it right, then bronze, golden, agapite, verite and valorite hammers can effectively be considered obsolete in the game and not advisable to be used ? And the highest the runic the less advisable its use ?
     
  18. Lord Lew

    Lord Lew Lore Keeper
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    Not true, you can make some incredible items with the high end runics, if the Odds are with you. However you can burn through hundreds of runic hammers before you get that one item with godly properties.
     
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  19. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I agree with Lord Lew.

    If you're willing to burn though hundreds or thousands of charges before you get that one "perfect" item, then by all means, do it. If you'd rather have the few million gold you can make by selling a valorite hammer, then by all means do that.

    I will make it clear:
    If you want to have the best possible suit that can be crafted, you MUST use the rarest runic tool available. A valorite hammer can create items with >500 imbue weight. An imbuer cannot. There is no arguing that point.
     
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  20. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    @popps If you want to make custom items, use a lower end runic tool. They give out the least number of properties, leaving you more room to Imbue your custom item.

    If you want to make extremely powerful items, use a higher end runic tool. They give out the most properties, and easily exceed the Imbuing Weight cap (which does not allow further Imbuing). Reforging allows some control of the random properties (by using Inspired / Sublime), where as standard runic crafting does not.

    It all depends on how you want to approach making your suit. Several people use a combination of high and low end runic tools. They craft a few "core" pieces with the high end runic tools, and they craft custom pieces to "fill in the holes" with the low end runic tools.
     
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  21. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, a valorite hammer can create items with over 500 imbueing weight (but how higher, realistically, then 500 weight ?) but being magic items, they cannot be then reforged....

    And reforging a plain item using a valorite hammer, may end up with like 3 properties all high at CAP but saturating the item's imbueing weight so much that no other additional needed property might be then imbued....

    From what I seem to understand, since valorite hammers come with only 15 charges, the statistical odds would require perhaps so many of them to practically make their usage unthinkable of, even it theoretically possible....
     
  22. popps

    popps Always Present
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    This looks like an interesting approach to suit making....

    Can anyone perhaps post their personal experience with such an approach and post the details of what the suit ended up being like and what consumption of materials (runic tools, imbuing rare materials...) were needed for the entire project ?
     
  23. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Just remember though that results will vary... since very few people will have tried to make more than 1 or 2 "perfect" pieces of armor you're just not going to have enough data points to draw any reasonable conclusions.

    For instance, I was testing agapite hammers on TC, and on my 3rd reforge attempt, I got exactly the stats I wanted. I wanted to get an idea of how often I might expect those results, I tried to make another one. The next one took me 50-60 tries. Just having 2 data points, especially ones that are so far apart, tells me little to expect of my true success rate.
     
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  24. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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  25. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I found interesting to read the conclusions of this post http://stratics.com/community/threads/my-val-reforge-test.312694/#post-2365197............ one thing though I do not understand, if valorite runics are not good for reforging weapons, why would they be in some ways usefull to reforge non-weapon pieces ?

    Also, it is not clear to me why studded armor would be preferable to metal armor....
     
  26. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    You can have 55 lmc with a 5 part studded suit.
     
  27. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    There are a few reasons that a valorite hammer isn't good for weapons but might be good for armor. The first being scarcity. You only have 1 weapon, and that weapon is the ONLY place you can put the HML, HSL, HLL, and in general also the only spot you can put the slayer property that a Bushido Paladin needs. Since you've alredy got DI on there from normal crafting, you're 100% locked into the properties you need. You can only choose Vampiric/of the Vampire once, which means that, while there is some small chance, I'm sure, that your reforge attempt will roll all 3 leeches, plus a super slayer, plus something else useful, that chance is probably nearly impossibly remote.

    Now think about how you imbue/reforge some armor up. If you're a sampire you need to imbue (assuming that you're wearing reading glasses) so you have 25 imbue slots (taken from CorwinXX's eq guide):
    5x HCI 5% (reforge)
    5x LMC @8%
    2x some resists
    5x MI 8
    5x SI 8
    3x HPI 5

    First off, now you need to put some HCI on a jewel. With a valorite hammer, lets say you hit the jackpot and land a "perfect" piece, something like LMC 10, MI 10, SI 10, +15 fire resist, 7 HPI (should be 138 + 138+ 138 + 100 + 164 = 677 imbue weight which per DJad is within the realm of possibility). I'm not even sure if this combo is actually possible, but lets assume that it is. If you can do that twice, now you no longer need to imbue HPI on one of the 3 other pieces(ok, 14 vs 15 but still...). Remember you're already putting HCI on a jewel, now you're putting 10 instead of 5. So now you've freed up an entire property that you can use on something else on a 5th piece. Maybe reforge it to have an eater, and put 15% HCI on the jewel, or reforge it to have some Regen property?
     
  28. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    The only way to get some control on reforging with high-end runic tools is to set two names (packages).

    Useful (for a warrior) mods on armor:
    SI, DEX, SR, HPI, STR, HPR, MI, INT, MR, LMC, RES, DE, HCI, DCI

    Common issues:
    1. DEX/STR/INT caps is twice less than SI/HPI/MI caps. Having DEX+SI on one piece and INT+MI on another piece is not as good as having SI+MI on the both pieces.
    2. HCI/DCI caps are low - about 40. Having HCI+DCI on a piece is not good.

    PvM issues:
    1. You takes a lot of damage and spend a lot of mana. This makes regenerations much less useful. (You may regenerate 1-2 HP/Mana per second while you need 10-20 HP/Mana per second.)
    2. You do a lot of damage. This makes leaches very effective. You must use heavy slow weapons to leach more. (Heavy weapons do more damage per hit, slow weapons have bigger HLL/HML caps.)
    3. You need a lot of Stamina. (You need Stamina to get 1.25s with a slow weapon)

    This leaves you very few options for a good crafted armor pieces:
    LMC, MI, SI, HPI/RES, HCI/DCI
    It is impossible to reforge pieces because you can't get mods from 4 different packages when you select two names. So you reforge HCI/DCI and imbue other 4 mods.

    PvP issues:
    1. AI damage is capped. (The cap is 35. You can reach the cap with a light fast weapon).
    2. You do pretty few damage (with a weapon). This makes leaches almost completely useless.
    3. You take relatively few damage. You'd prefer don't waste Mana for healing.

    This makes MR/HPR/SR more important and SI less important. With reforging you can get double value (200 intensity) for MR/HPR.
    You want to get as much mana as possible (150+). This makes STR/INT/DEX good mods (in addition to HPI/MI/SI).


    Now you can use pieces like this:
    MI/INT, LMC, MR, HPI, STR/DE, HPR (Sorcery + Vitality)
    MI, INT, LMC, MR, HPR, SR (Sorcery + Restoration)
    MI/INT, LMC, MR, RES, RES, RES/DE (Sorcery + Defense)
    If you need SI you may as well use:
    MI/INT, LMC, MR, SI, DEX, SR (Sorcery + Haste)

    Go to fel yew gate and you will see a lot of such armor pieces on players.

    P.S. Mage characters usually use Wizardry to get LMC and CF.
     
  29. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    I will say that the higher end hammers would be MUCH more useful if you could set all the same properties as the lower hammers. I'm sure there is some sort of balance issue that they think they're solving here, but I don't really see what the harm would be in letting me reforge something with 5HCI + 10 LMC... but viscious is not available on hammers > copper(?) I think.

    I *think* if you only set 1 name on a val hammer, you'll get 2/3 properties from that group + 3/4 others, which may come from any available property.

    You're absolutely right though Corwin, that by doing that, you're putting a whole lot of hope into the RNG.

    Just some simple math... I didn't count exactly, but lets say there are 25 properties available(actually I think it's more like 30). You choose "of defense" meaning you're going to get 2 of those properties (lets also assume you don't care which 2). So if you're hoping for the exact 3 properties you want from the remaining 20, that is "20 choose 3" possible combinations or... 1 in 1140 chance. That's roughly 300 hammers. If there are 30 total properties, that chances moves to 1 in 2300...
     
  30. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    When you select only one name with a val hammer there is high probiblity that you will get the second (random) name (and loose any chances to get desired 3 mods on the roll).
     
  31. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Which basically leads me to the conclusion that even though "in theory" higher runic hammers "could" make some very nice items, given the odds and the low chances that this might realistically occur, basically it is better not to use anything over copper runics for weapons or metal armor.......

    That is, the evolution of the game has made bronze, gold, agapite, verite and valorite runic hammers obsolete items ??

    Who cares whether they "may" in theory make nice stuff, if the odds are too slim of making anything usefull with them, then, IMHO, they are not a realistic alternative to lower runic hammers.
     
  32. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Some of us like to have nice things? Some of us believe that it is specifically the rarity that makes it worth while? By your logic, no one should ever aspire to achieve something that is "sufficiently difficult" to do. Some of us like to achieve such things simply because it is difficult to do.
     
  33. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Valorite hammers still have a sense. When you reforge with two names you need about 10 runic tools to get something good. And may be 50 runic tools to get something very good.
    Bronze/Gold hammer can be used to get 2 mods (mostly on shields)
    Agapite/Verite look useless.
     
  34. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Would you use Valorite Hammers mostly for armor or also for weapons ? What 2 names wold you pick for dexers and why ?

    Also, why would you useBronze/Gold mostly on shields ? Not on armor or weapons ? Why ? What 2 names would you also pick for dexers here ?

    Thanks.
     
  35. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    My testing on TC shows that Agapite seems to be the best bet for a shield. It will let you re-forge a shield with 10 SSI, 5 HCI, and 30 DI. The ver and val hammers don't let you choose the that name package (vicious/slaughter + animated/haste). Then you can still imbue DCI onto it.

    By having 30 DI on shield, plus 20 on a talisman, it gives you the option of using heartwood woodland armor, enhancing to get the DI bonus and then using a whetstone to remove DI from your weapon, allowing for an extra mod there.

    I haven't managed to create such a shield on a prod shard yet, but I HAVE been successful on TC.
     
  36. popps

    popps Always Present
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    From your words, I seem to understand that, when designing a suit, it is advisable to have certain properties on certain items rather than on others or, at least, with as high an intensity as possible towards the wearable CAP for that intensity (or even above within the entire suit if it is a debuffable property...), in order to "free up" the need to imbue that particular intensity on other pieces on which, it is more advisable to have different properties....

    You mention, for example, removing Damage Increase from the weapon and move this property on other pieces (like using heartwood woodland armor...) so as to have this property slot "freed up" for some other property, more usefull....

    Now, if I understood it right, is there some walkthrough which guides through the choice of what property to have on what item and up to what intensity so as to be able to "free up" property slots on other items and imbue on those different properties more usefull to be had ?

    Again, DI can well be on a weapon and yet, apparently, it is not advisable to do so but rather, it is advisable to remove it althougether using a Whetstone and imbue DI on armor pieces so to have the possibility to imbue a different property on the weapon different to DI.
    Now, DI is important to a dexer and yet, if it is adviced to move it over to armor pieces, I must conclude that there are other properties far more important than DI which a dexer should have and are best (or only ?) placed on the weapon when the DI is removed from it.....
    Is that so ? In such a case, what would be far more important than DI ?

    Let's assume that a weapon already has Hit Life Leech, Hit Mana Leech, Hit Stamina Leech, Slayer, Damage Increase, by removing althougether DI with a Whetstone, what other property would make best use on a weapon?
    Hit Chance Increase, besides weapons, can be imbued also on jewellery, other properties can also be had besides a weapon also on other pieces and besides the Hit Areas and Hit Spells, on just a weapon can be imbued Hit Lower Attack and Hit Lower Defense and Hit Mana Drain, Swing Speed Increase, Use Best Weapon and Mage Weapon, Spell Channeling (also on shields). It is my understanding that Blood Drinker, Battle Lust and Splintering Weapon are not imbuable and can only be found on artifacts.

    Now, removing DI from the weapon what would be a best substitute to it on the weapon ?

    And in general, how can one tell what property (and to what intensity) is best advisable to have on what piece ?

    Just trying to understand how not to imbue the wrong property onto the wrong piece because making the wrong choices could screw up a piece or even an entire suit....

    So, what are the rules that one would be better off to follow when making an entire suit ?

    Thanks.
     
    #36 popps, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  37. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    First off, most of my thinking comes from CorwinXXs posts that are stickied to the top of the Warrior forum. He seems to not advocate the use of a shield, but I do. Other than that, I agree with more or less everything he suggests in there.

    Well, the thing about weapons is, there are some properties that can come ONLY on weapons, or artificats.

    Lets say you want any stat increase, or any stat regen. Well, those can be found on basically any slot, so it doesn't make sense to put it on a weapon. All hit effects (hit leech, hit spell, hit area, HLA, HLD) can ONLY go on weapons though.

    Depending on the intended use of the hypothetical weapon you have there which is HLL, HML, HSL, Slayer, DI. If you remove DI from the equation depends on what you might put on there.

    For me, if I was planning on using the weapon to kill something that hits really hard, then I'd use HLA.

    If I was making a weapon specific to killing something like, say UEVs, which don't hit very hard, don't use magic etc., maybe it makes sense to use a bigger weapon, and put some SSI on the weapon to get to the required 1.25 swing speed, I haven't crunched the numbers yet.

    You could also potentially look into putting HLD on the weapon, and swapping out mace and shield for another reforged/imbued helmet of some sort.

    Since I don't have the right shield yet, I haven't put a ton of thought into how to build the rest of the suit.

    What I think about when making a suit is I start with what I want the result to be, and work backwards figuring out how I can get there.
     
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  38. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Also, whether or not is is *really* advisable to remove the DI from the weapon for a melee suit is up for debate. For a mage suit, I think this is a given, you're holding the weapon for the stats it gives you, not becuase you intend to use it to kill stuff.

    For one thing, the whetstones are somewhat a PITA to collect/pricey to buy. On my shard when you see one for sale, it's usually for a few million. Now you're looking at a set of weapons that costs 60 million for, or each weapon takes you an extra few hours to make while you collect the whetstone.
     
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  39. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    HLL (154) + HML (110) + HSL (100) + SuperSlayer (130) = 494
    so you can leave 3 DI on your weapon and don't spend your gold on whetstones...

    This week I have started to craft a shield. But I want 5 SSI, 5 HCI, 25 DI so I use Bronze hammers (already have spent 16 ones).
     
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  40. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    But if you want to remove DI then the best mod to add (against heavy hitting stuff with a lot of HP) is Hit Fatigue.
    HLL (110) + HML (110) + HSL (80-100) + SuperSlayer (130) + Hit Fatigue

    Right now I'm crafting a new suit for my favorite character:
    Paladin questions
     
  41. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Craft one suit... You can craft it on TC or even just on paper... and you will get answers to almost all of your questions.
     
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  42. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Try #1 for me with a bronze hammer was 4HCI 5SSI and 25 DI... I know what you're trying to do is possible.... at least bronze hammers are a lot easier to come across than the agapites that I am using shooting for 5hci 10 ssi and 30di...
     
  43. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    I need 5 HCI. I have already crafted 7 shields 4 HCI 5 SSI 25 DI (used 20 runic tools).
     
  44. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Maybe try a golden hammer? Quite a bit harder to come by the BODs for them though.