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Question for Devs about the future of Thieves

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Viper09, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Is there any plan whatsoever on bring life back to thieves? I noticed it was never even touched in the Q&A for SA. As it stands thieves are basically dead and they have been ever since insurance was introduced. Our only sense of joy is when someone forgets they left something uninsured in their bag or forgot to bank a scroll.

    Artifacts spawning on the ground based on a time-table in the same place in dungeons just don't cut it.
    :sad4:
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I hate to tell you this. Your only future is Siege. I know you want a different answer, but it is not going to happen.

    You folks that like to kill thieves are welcome too.
     
  3. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Yeah. I would love to see more being done to un nerf the thief profession. Insurance really did kill it for most people. I know they made an effort with the artifacts and all, but its just not the same.

    I would like to see quests added that only thieves can get. You are given a 'mark' and you have to hunt him down in some place and steal a certain item from him. Make the item something decent on par with some of the artifact spawns but make the quest hard to accomplish. More than just recall to such and such town and hit your steal macro.

    However, even that would just be a small addition in what would need to be a major tweak of the profession.
     
  4. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    I created my thief mainly to steal artifacts not at all to steal from other players. i know players are differnt. seige and fel are your answers i say leave tram, ish , malas and tokuna alone.
    • what the dev teams need to do is add more stealables including more stealable artifacts. the only problem you guys truly have that like stealing from other players is there are not enough players in fel. if there where more players in fel this wouldn't be as much of a problem for you seige is probally a better answer for you then fel i assume it has more players then fel on any shard and theres no insurance or blessed items there.
     
  5. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    The problem with the typical 'go to siege' comments is that Siege has many flaws to go with its no Trammel ruleset. Unless they get rid of those flaws, most players will steer clear of it while the few Siege players that are around will continue to beg people to try it.

    If it was a good shard AND it had no Trammel or Insurance, then ya, it would be a good answer for those looking for that sort of play.
     
  6. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Does stealable artifacts really make you a Thief? Who are you robbing? I play a Thief in Fel on a Prodo shard....I go to spawns and hang out in popular PvP areas. Granted I don't find much, but I do on occasion get a few goodies. I agree something needs to happen for Thieves but it needs to be in the way of stealing from other players not necessarily adding Pixel crack.
     
  7. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    to each there own i enjoy stealing artifacts you enjoy stealing from other players i am cool with that but don't ruin tram for the few who want to steal from players in tram many would quit uo me included if they allowed stealing from players in tram. malas, tokuna or ish.
     
  8. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I didn't say anything about Malas, Tokuno, Ilsh, or Trammel. I'd rather see Insurance or CBD/Item Bless Deeds have an effect in Felucca. It would revive the Thief Profession, and eventually benefit Crafters as the Equipment trend would switch to Player made vs Artifact items for PvP as the basis for suits.
     
  9. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    Doesn't have to be in Trammel. Stealing from players in Fel needs to be improved. That is pretty clear.

    As for stealing from players and 'stealing' artifacts. You aren't really stealing the artifacts, you are picking them up. The Devs just make it so that you have to use the stealing skill to do so. There isn't much of a challenge stealing an item that's sitting on the ground beyond just having the skill to get it. Strategy and tactics are part of the joy that people get from being a thief in game.
     
  10. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    ok sorry i guess i mis understood what you typed but still i go to fel on occasion and i dont want my blessed items or insured items to be automatically uninsured when i go to fel.
     
  11. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Jesus christ, want someone to hold your damn hand when you go too? Its fel, its dangerous, there should be no or very limited, insurance. Pvp is better without uber suits. For everyone.
     
  12. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I will hush now. *shakes head and walks away*
     
  13. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I would do siege, but I don't have the time or patience to work all the way back to GM and further on that system.
     
  14. Demon Killer

    Demon Killer Guest

    the guy has a right to his opinion and i agree with him go play seige and if you dont like the way things are now.
     
  15. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Too bad...
     
  16. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ok, cut the go play stereotypical go play siege statements here. There are plenty of people who will go do that if they haven't already. It's easy to say go play siege, especially after already GMing the important skills, so enough of that. This is about the non-siege shards.
    I was actually kinda hoping to hear from some dev comment on this, but naturally that is a bit of a too high hope. :p
     
  17. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    Sorry, but tell me, if thief proffession is dead, why so many people want to join thieves guild?

    Pavel Veselý
     
  18. i need aids and pots ???
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    There are lots of shards posting in this forum, including Siege where stealing isn't dead. But no one said stealing was dead. At the least it's struggling. All you can truly steal are regs, aids, and pots. And, as I said in the very first post:

     
  20. i still dont get why the big bad pvp masters on production shards need the care bear stuff like insurance dont be sissys come get PS if you want them bring your miner if you want ore its stupid a double standard really what if the dev made the pub 12 or what ever the hell good old days your lookin for it would be empty as seige is now
     
  21. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I don't understand why you posted that here as it is completely irrelevant to the topic and discussion. I believe the thread you were looking for was locked. If you want to discuss that make another thread.
    This thread is about thieves are whether or not there will ever be a change for them coming on non-siege and mugen shards.
     
  22. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    That's not completely true..the thief class is struggling but there is more than the items you listed. I take my thief to spawns and steal scrolls before they ever have a chance to bank them, I hit up the popular PvP areas and snoop whom ever is out and about and I've picked up quite a few nice things...Most recent have been an Ankh pendant, a Blackthorn's exemplar, and tonight a Cursed Spirit of the Totem. I ignore pots, bandages, and regs. It's not uncommon for people to forget to insure boat keys, and while yes they do turn out to be dead sometimes it's always a thrill when you get a free boat. I watch around the more populated areas in Tram and Malas for Packies, and look for them to vanish through a Reg gate and follow...Even if I can't kill the person leading them I drop a packie full of goodies and make off with what I can. There's things for a thief to do but he can't sit down and expect it to come to him, right now You've got to really go out and work for the scraps you do manage to get. Do I think thieves need a Boost...yes I spend most of my UO time playing a thief now, and I rarely see anyone else on the shard I play usually doing it. Sometimes I go days without finding a decent steal and if the population of thieves are that low, how many could the shard really support? (this is on Chessy btw) The entire class needs bone on the Thief vs Player end not the Thief vs Dungeon Environment.
     
  23. monnie101

    monnie101 Guest

    I said this many times long ago. They should at least just add quests for thieves where they go and steal items from shops and stuff kind of like picking chests and such.
     
  24. What?

    You've never heard of Tomb Raider?

    There's even Grave Robbers.

    :lick:
     
  25. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Siege has more problems than it has plusses. 'Go Play Siege' is a cop out statement made by people that just can't come up with any thing productive to say on the thread but still itch to raise their post count.

    Regardless of what people like you might thing, Siege is not some perfect shard for every pvp'er, pk or thief. If it was, it wouldn't be so underpopulated. So, try to at least add something to the discussion next time. Please.

    However, I do feel that everyone has a right to their opinion. As long as its really their opinion and not just some statement they picked up on the boards that they toss out at innpropriate times just to boost their count.
     
  26. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    No one is saying the those activities don't involve stealing. But, they definitely aren't the end all be all of what a thief is. Do you need to be in the thieves' guild to steal artifacts these days? If not, that's very telling.

    Don't confuse what the little title on a paperdoll says. Back in the day when poisoning weapons to sell to others was a pretty decent profession. Before the devs destroyed that too. And most of the characters that had poisoning then also had Alchemy and other 'crafting' skills. Basically, they were mules. But, those mules sometimes had the title of Grandmaster Assassin. Even though they never killed anyone. Its hard to argue that those mules actually were 'Assassins' now isn't it? But, that's what their title showed. The same can be said of thieves' today that are only really allowed to pick things up off the ground using their 'stealing' skill.

    Having the opinion that you don't like thieves or don't think they should be able to steal certain things from you is fine. But, you have to admit, Thief as a profession is very much a dying class.

    As for 'tomb raiders', sure, make a profession that is a tomb raider and enjoy using the stealing skill to pick things up off the ground when you log onto him every 6 hours when the item respawn. If its fun for you, do it and enjoy. You have my support. But, don't mistake that with being a thief.
     
  27. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    At this time, Siege's biggest problem is that we are underpopulated. Sure there are many reasons for this, but the biggest I've seen is the fact that people aren't willing to leave everything on their production shard behind after playing UO as long as they have. Right now, Siege seems to be the last stop for many players, who grow tired of the production shards.

    We don't have economy problems, we don't have scripting problems (well, not like the production shards), we don't have scammer problems. We police ourselves and have for many years...la
     
  28. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    You don't have more than one player per account. Your skill gain system is horrible even after the fixes. You have just as many scripter problems and scammer problems per player as any other shard I am sure too. I understand people love it there and feel the need to go to every thread begging people to come because its so underpopulated. But, facts are facts. Its under populated for a reason.

    As for being not wanting to leave their production shard, that may be the case in a few instances. But definitely not the majority. I see people moving shards all the time. I even went from Cats to Europa for a bit because I heard the rp there was so much better. So, its not that people don't want to go to another shard really. Its just that the destination shard has to actually be BETTER than the one they are leaving to make it worth while to do. And Siege isn't that at all. No offense to those that enjoy what it offers. To each his own as always. But, its many flaws are greater than the few benefits it offers.

    If I grow tired of production shards enough to leave them, Siege is definitely not the last stop. Its horrible there, though you are free to disagree of course, and no amount of 'go play siege because its perfect for pvp'ers, pk's and thieves' comments will change that.

    If, and that's a big IF, EA fixed Siege's problems then maybe those comments would have a little weight. Until then, it will remain underpopulated and its players will be forced to go on any thread that mentions a production shard problem and beg people to come there. Its not the answer, obviously. Not until its issues are fixed or EA releases a shard without those problems and also without the problems people have on normal production shards. I doubt that will ever happen though. But I can dream.
     
  29. Hoffs

    Hoffs Gilfane Keeper of the Hall
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    Are you basing this comment on personal experience?
     
  30. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Of course. I have a character on Siege. I have characters on several shards. I gave up there after it took me months to be able to stand up to those big bad Ettins. Its horrible for those players that have limited time to play and want to be able to join in the 'end game' within their lifetime.

    And, even if not from personal experience, anyone can read the ruleset of Siege and pretty much know its not for them. Do I really have to play on Siege to know that having one character option is not for me? No. Do I really need to play on Siege to know that the RoT system in place (in place now even since the specs of the RoT system were posted on the Current Update listing) isn't for me? No.
     
  31. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    You can't transfer to Siege, so a move here is usually a complete new start...la
     
  32. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Not sure about what you are trying to say. I don't recall saying anything about anyone using a transfer token to move to Siege. Maybe you meant to quote someone else, if so, no problem.

    Personally, I have never used a transfer token and I have GM or higher characters on several shards. Siege is not one of them, which is one of the problems with Siege.
     
  33. Hoffs

    Hoffs Gilfane Keeper of the Hall
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    The comment that I was specifically referring too said 'its horrible there (sic)'.

    You can still join in 'the end-game' within a guild structure, and if you can't beat ettins after several months then you are doing something wrong.

    And another comment you made was based on your lack of experience. Siege suffers far less from scripting 'per player' than any other shard simply because we have no recall and anyone found scripting in, say, the Painted Caves will very quickly meet with an unfortunate accident.

    Kelmo's initial comment that started your assault was a perfectly legitimate response to the OP; if you want to avoid the problems of insurance, come to the shard without any.
     
  34. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    In your opinion...la
     
  35. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Yes, it you want a shard that offers no insurance, then go to Siege. But, and its not an assault but more of a point of opinion, Siege is not the answer to every pvp, pk or thief concern that players have.

    As for lack of experience, you can say that all you like. But if you really believe that you don't have a scripting problem, you are deluded. I have seen people script farming resources on Siege all the time. They just do in in places that aren't as populated. That's like saying that Washington DC doesn't have a crime problem because the White House doesn't get burgled.

    Not every script requires you to be in a dungeon. And many scripts don't even require recalling. They are called 'rails' and they allow your character to be moved by walking to and from any spot you set up. You could, theoretically of course, set up a mining macro for example that walks you from any bank in just about any city to just about any mining spot and get all the ore you want. Yes, even on Siege.

    See, I like to educate myself on things that I choose to discuss on these boards. Even if that education is in things I don't personally do.

    Read the description of Siege, it clearly defines its ruleset. And you don't have to play there to know if that ruleset is for you. If you want to limit your involvement in threads like these to 'Go to Siege because we don't have insurance but you will have to overlook all the other issues we DO have' comments, feel free. But, I will feel free to state my opinion as well. That's not assault, unless of course your posting quotes of me and disagreeing with me is also assault. I don't see them as such, but if you want to, that's ok with me.

    And, Kelmo's actual comment was 'your only future is Siege' which, while it may be their opinion, isn't really accurate. Some people actually want to discuss changes that could be made to the thieving profession. Shocking that they would want that on a thread about the future of thieves I know, but still. If the only future that every pvp'er, pk or thief has is the current Siege setup, then the future of this game is seriously dampered.
     
  36. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Exactly. Which is why its is my opinion that Siege is not the end all be all to every pvp, pk and thief problem that exists. I have said that a few times but thanks for restating it for me.

    Everyone is allowed their opinion. And anyone has the right to toss out the standard 'go to siege' comment instead of actually adding anything to the discussion. Just like I have the right to say that those standard comments don't make much sense when you look past the uncontrollable need that Siege players have to get more people to their underpopulated shard.

    After all, this board is all about opinions. And, sometimes, they are actually different from others. Shocking I know. But, such is life.
     
  37. Hoffs

    Hoffs Gilfane Keeper of the Hall
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    Oh well, I should perhaps bow to your omniscience in all matters....

    ...but at no point did I say Siege does not have any scripters.
     
  38. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Bow to whatever you like. I would prefer to discuss the future of thieves on this thread about the future of thieves. If you don't want to discuss that, its your right.

    I am far from all knowing in any regard. But, it doesn't take omniscience to read the Siege ruleset. Its right there on the UO page in fact.

    Some examples

    "There will be only one character slot available per account."

    "To raise the level of difficulty suitable for the types of players attracted to a veteran shard, the rate at which you will gain in time-resource skills and all stats will be slower than on the standard shards. The “rate-over-time” system (a.k.a. “ROT”) and daily caps will curb the unbalancing effects of macroing, since everyone will be subject to the same rules."

    "Firstly, there will be intervals of time limiting the amount you can gain in skills and stats. The time per interval at which a skill can advance will lengthen as the skill raises. For stats, the interval will remain constant regardless of how high your stats are. "

    Those pretty clearly define those aspects of Siege that many people have trouble with. If omniscience means being able to read the above and make a decision on if that shard is for you then, yes, alot of people playing prodshards in UO are in fact omniscient. If that works for ya.
     
  39. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    2 questions...

    Have you played a thief?

    Have you played Siege?

    ...la
     
  40. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    I have a Legendary thief that has been pretty much shelved since insurance game out, yes.

    One answer, read this thread.
     
  41. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    At what point was trammel meant to be so safe? You people are carrying around 10 mil rings and crazy stuff like that. You have billions in gold with nothing to slow you down. Your crafter has to play with toys (runics and bods) forever to make something good, putting that much more into the economy.



    If you don't let players lose something, then they'll never need to buy it, and you've screwed up the economy.


    The thief class would be equal to a small tax or drain.




    I'd make 20 stealing powerscrolls rare as resist/magery and put in steep requirements for a thief to go to trammel. I don't want you to be swarmed and griefed. But you want to play without loss, and that's not the way to make the game or it's players better.



    seriously I remember when you could buy stuff and you'd never see anything except a superrare or big house go for over a couple of million. Definatly nothing you'd wear or fight with on a normal basis (ie fight, ie die and lose) this game has no death penalty, it needs an item loss penalty.)



    the thief would help balance out all of that money in trammel. I would give them the skill detect duped item through use of the item id skill and the ability to delete it (cheap goods)



    skills that follow the thief



    stealing
    snooping
    hiding
    stealth
    forensics
    detect hidden
    item id
    arms lore
    tracking
    lockpicking
    remove trap




    that's a lot of neglected skills. The thief isn't like a murderer. The mage and the warrior can fight play in trammel when blue.


    I say make it to where they can't steal in guard limits... or only on special occasions

    but you shouldn't be able to farm resources or gold into the economy so safely and quickly, it should be something earned.



    If you don't want a thief playing there, I'd like to see your bank and your bling cause you know you've got too much stuff.



    Walking around wearing a billion gold suit that you live and die in is silly. Fat cats. Trammel is an overstuffed goose waiting for the knife and fork. The people there are taking advantage of it's safety



    Ok damn I need to learn to sum while I'm writing



    1. Trammel - fat sissy pig with a big ole apple in it's mouth. And unlimited piggy bank with a blank check. Overinflated to the point where the check system can't even keep up with it.

    bad



    Thieves - many skills to use, challange not equal to pvp, but valid tactic for use in pvp with many skills to revamp with it. A drain on the fatcats who have too much
    An obstical for the normal player to overcome, fun class



    good



    You're only supposed to be 100%safe in your house and in towns, that's what groups people together, and that's what takes things out of the game.

    if you've ever seen 3 thieves at someone unattended macroing it's a funny site.
     
  42. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    look at how bad your cheaters are. The jungle is so safe, they can play without even being there, that's just sorry, and that's why we were in the game in the begining. We were nerfed because you would see 10 theives at every moongate and everywhere you went and they truely were a grief class. EVERYONE was making a thief at one point. It's a good class. It's not my fault all of you newbs made one and pissed off the gate campers town sitters and people who weren't playing attended.
     
  43. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I can answer Yes to both of those....But I still play Prodo more than Siege. This thread is about Thieves in general not just Siege though, and they shouldn't be restricted to being a profitable, enjoyable play style just on Siege. Yes it's ok to say "Come to Siege on a Thief it's great" but the thing is the restrictions on Siege that make Siege well Siege aren't to everyone's liking. I'm all for a revitalization of thieves on Prodo shard myself. I enjoy playing them there just as much as on Siege as I don't have to hunt nearly as much for people, just more for something to actually steal.
     
  44. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    You are by far the most entertaining poster on the boards today.

    I havn't decided if you're funny is village idiot funny or Timmy from southpark funny.

    People are going to exploit any possible advantage they can in this(or any other) game. This is what happened back then and it would happen the second they allow thieves any of the risk-free power they once had.

    I can't help but find it amusing that you think the only people camped were playing unattended. Truly amusing. I can't help but chuckle at the thought of paying 25k back then for a rune inside the walls of the bank(don't remember which one it was) or having enough hiding on nearly all my chars to bank in safety. Then, come here and listen to you go on and on about how it wasn't or how it won't be.

    The topics of posts recently are completely off the beaten path in regards to actual reality as of late with all the tram deleting fel deleting adding thieves to tram...etc etc etc...is there something in the water?
     
  45. Nexus

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    Myself I understand that Thieves were part of what the concept of Trammel was designed to stop, but me personally I'm all for opening up the playing field in Fel, get rid of Insurance and invalidate the "Blessed" property in Fel. Bring Risk back to Fel in the form of a Thief.
     
  46. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Honestly, that is the only measure I see ever being changed that can make the thief playable again. Anything short of that is not going to work. Of course, you mention risk and there really isn't any risk in running around nekked with a buddy and stealing things.
     
  47. Nexus

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    Well when I've mentioned it I've brought it up as a quasi Siege style format for Fel, no insurance and 1 blessed item. From playing Siege I know this 1 item will be an Uber weapon. Running around naked in that circumstance isn't really an option unless you like getting dropped in 2 hits by an archer, or less from a dragon.
     
  48. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Yes, it seems like every thread that comes up looking for a discussion around improving anything on a prod shard, the Siege players come out of the woodwork begging people to come there and to overlook the flaws there.

    And ya, I get that they like their shard. Great. But that doesn't mean that its the answer to fixing things on prod shards. Not in the least.
     
  49. but this is problem Fel folks want freedom wildness etc etc they just want it in thier plastic bubbles
     
  50. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    Not sure what you are trying to say there. Most pro Fel players want Fel, as a whole, changed to something more akin to what it was orginally designed to be. Dangerous and risky. As long as Trammel is available for those that don't want that risk, then I don't see why that is so much of an issue.