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Question on Mana Regeneration, Meditation, and Focus

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Hey everone.

    Some time ago, the UO team announced that the Mana Regeneration property would be subject to diminishing returns, and that it wouldn't work as well on a character without Meditation or Focus.

    I'd like to know if anyone knows if that change was ever made.

    I ask because I am contemplating an important template change that would involve substituting out Meditation or Focus for another skill...And I want to know if it's still possible to compensate for the lack of a mana regenerating skill by using the Mana Regeneration property.

    Galen's use of Mana is pretty intense for a warrior, nearly mage-like in some respects.

    Thank you!

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    No such "diminishing returns" systems have been implemented as of yet on production shards. It's possible one along these lines exists on TC, though I'm uncertain.
     
  3. athos_uo

    athos_uo Seasoned Veteran
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    Diminishing returns on Mana Regeneration is already inplemented.

    I'll post some explanation in the next post.
     
  4. athos_uo

    athos_uo Seasoned Veteran
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    Chrome has figured out as follows:

    [​IMG]

    X axis shows the (raw) total amount of mana regeneration with abilities and equipment.

    Y axis shows the values after DR is applied.

    --

    Basic Formula:

    Adjusted value of Mana Regeneration={ ( 7+2*C)x sqrt(raw value of MR) - (4+2*C) } / 3

    (*): C= [ 2 x ( skill value of Meditation ) + ( skill value of Focus ) ] / 360

    --

    If a character of ELF has Focus 100, Meditation 100, Int 100, and MR of items 0.

    Total amount of MR is 18. This is a raw value of MR.
    Adjusted value is
    [( 7 + 2 * 0.83 )*sqrt(18) - ( 4 + 2*0.83 )] /3 = [36.7 -5.66 ]/3=10.3

    --

    If you make a character of Elf with focus 0, Meditation 0, int 100 , your character must have about 24 MR amount with item properties. It will reach the same *REAL* MR(about10.3) of former character.
     
  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    EDIT: I think I misunderstood it badly actually....lol

     
  6. athos_uo

    athos_uo Seasoned Veteran
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    You need not to apologize even if you were wrong, and you are right in the case.
    I think the formula here is not completely correct, but it is not the problem here. No racial ability, not +10 from GM Med, but +11 from GM Med + Int, I think. But, as already mentioned, it's not the problem. Total 18, that's OK.

    --

    Ah, sorry! I had replied too early. Ignore this.
     
  7. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Hmm, I guess I musta missed that bit of news - anyone know when the change was made?

    Regarding that pic, Yahoo doesn't allow cross linking. The host page has an actual calculator that'll do the math, probably worth a look.
     
  8. athos_uo

    athos_uo Seasoned Veteran
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    Publish 46(09 Aug 2007)

    The Mana Regeneration item property is now subject to the principle of diminishing returns.

    * The hard cap on MR has been removed.
    * As the total MR from items increases, each successive point of MR will give less overall mana regeneration.
    o This means that adding more MR will always give more mana regeneration.
    o This also means that as you put more MR items on, you get less of a bonus from each additional MR item.
    * Having higher Meditation and / or Focus skill will give a bonus to mana regeneration gained from MR items.
    * Meditation and /or Focus will now benefit for intermediate values and not just for multiples of 10 (i.e. 80.1 used to give you same MR bonus at 89.9).
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Awhile ago.

    The idea was to take a stab at making UO less item-based and more....item-enhanced. The idea was that MR shouldn't be a replacement to Focus or Med, but really an enhancement of it.

    Whether or not it's worked out seems to be a matter for debate.

    -Galen's player
     
  10. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    so after about 10 Regen for mana your gain for Regen items really starts to not get the bang for the buck !
     
  11. I may be barking up the wrong tree here with the intention of the diminishing return system, but is it now possible ot figure out the amount of mr it would take to replace 100 focus or med?
     
  12. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Most def not. It certainly did work. Before (Pre-Diminshing Returns), you could run a mage with 15+ MR with 0 focus/med (20 with human JOAT) and have 0 problems at all with mana (40lmc). Now, if you attempted to do so, you would drain your mana and be useless. The reason I say this is because then & now alike, I am/have been apart of a large scale pvp guild. If you even attempted to do the all MR and no med combo on a mage, you could not field bridges/choke points for more than 45 seconds tops. Nowadays (assuming you have fought at least 1 choke point fight and understand what I mean) choke point battles go on FOREVER if you have a good fielder, right?

    If you are in a semi big guild (or have a few mage friends, and you are a mage, or just speculate) Have one with even 20 MR now and 0 med (20 JOAT), and have one with about 7 and 120 med. Have them toss about 10 para fields in a row, then toss 5 poison fields. See who can do it and who cant, and who has more med back and is ready to go quicker.

    There is actually a calculator that has the old & new formulas of MR on it. This is not my site, but I use it for MR calculations all the time for tight skill mage templates =]

    Both links below take you to the same place.

    Go to..

    http://noxins.net/flash/misc/mrcalc.swf

    Or

    http://noxins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=28
     
  13. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Ya Noxin and I debated that formula. His calculations was based through testing and not based on hard data from the Devs. It is pretty close. However his formula on focus is still on the old value, which is not the case.

    I still remember a key phrase one of the devs posted in a release over the changes "Focus is now on par with Meditation". The only difference between regen rates of Med and Focus is the INT bonus and you get the same MPS bonus on items as with med.

    Yes Med wins the MPS race, but not by much as it used too.

    People are still under the assumption that Focus is a wasted skill. On my scribe mage the stamina regen has saved my bacon from many necro mages.
    I have plenty of MR btw. On my warriors the same, but giving them an extra boost on the MR items and keeping my swing speed more consistent.
     
  14. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I can tell this is incredibly more complex than I thought!

    Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. It is, however, hard for someone inexperienced with UO's unique math, such as myself, to piece together pieces of information.

    It sounds like a character with higher intelligence benefits more from Meditation.

    Would this mean that a character with lower intelligence (say, under 100) would benefit as much from Focus as from Meditation? If so, I wonder if that makes it time to re-consider the Jackal's Collar and Leggings of Bane.

    This discussion is proving useful to me, definitely, and I think everyone....I must however also point out that this discussion, or a similar one, could have important implications for the future of armor in UO. So it's not just me that benefits, and I'm glad for that.

    There have often been discussions of the comparative "uselessness" of non-meddable armor, and proposals for non-meddable armor to have a damage absorption property of some kind, like that of Swamp Dragons (at least in PvM). I have every impression that the team takes these considerations seriously.

    If Focus proves to have mana regeneration rates comparable to that of Meditation, and if non-meddable armor is beefed up in some way? Then imagine the uber-tank capabilities of, say a Holy Light spammer dressed in a full suit of non-meddable armor that either has damage absorption or some other bonus, and has Mana Regeneration + Focus?

    I'm glad I asked this question; thanks everyone. I don't think I'm the only player whose understanding of this was comparatively limited!

    -Galen's player
     
  15. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Well; if you switch to non-med items, you lose your 20 med, if you are human of course. =)
     
  16. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest


    The intelligence bonus is really very limited, for example a char with 100 med and 10 int has a mana regeneration rate of 1.05 mana per sec, and a char with 100 med and 150 int has a MR rate of 1..44 mana per sec, so the difference in 140 int is .39 mana per second.

    Focus has a similar math equation, a char with 100 focus and 10 int has a mr rate of .73 mana per sec and a char with 150 int has a mr rate of 1.08 mana per second. the difference in mana produced over time is still greater if you have med and 10 in apposed to having focus and 150 int. Well focus is slightly more (0.03 more) but I hope this helps you in deciding what skills and items to use.

    Note: none of the math above includes Human JoaT, or MR items
     
  17. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I just wanted to thank everyone for their answers, for their knowledge, and for their patience.

    *salutes*

    -Galen's player
     
  18. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    Just wanted to say I learned a lot from reading this thread.

    I'm now wanting to try on test and see how good focus is compared to med with regen items.

    Going to try that calculator first.

    Edit: Tried Calculator and it appears that Focus is not far behind Meditation. I'm assuming this is correct?
     
  19. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest


    I agree. Thanks to OP for the question and the rest of you for insight. :thumbsup:
     
  20. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Depends on situations, med give 1 mr for every 10 points in med and focus give 1 mr for ever 20 points in med, so essentially 100 med is 10mr while 100 focus is only 5 mr. so med will always do better when you have mr items than focus will, but you can easily make up for 5mr with items, if you need to use such items like jackels collar, also focus has an implied sr factor as well which is nice in pvp for those vicious pain spikes and other stamina depleting hits.
     
  21. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Well sort of. When you wear non med armor. You still have your bonus on Med, but the INT bonus is null.

    This bit of code was put in 98 and I am pretty sure this was to balance out the old Tank mages at the time. Full Plated mages with an AC of -4 if I remember right. Back then armor wasn't to big of a deal. It seemed to more or less like stacking DCI. It only reduced a small portion of physical damage and offered no protection from spells or breath attacks. Magic resist was used for that and reduced spell damage by half on harmful spells and total nullifying duration spells thats if you made the save vs spells. Well I am rambling...

    Anyways the choice is always up to the player and what is best for the template in question.
     
  22. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Sorry but that is the old value. I wish Draconi would post all the formulas on focus and med. No Dev has done that as of yet after the changes were put in place.
     
  23. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Sorry but the value for med and focus is still the same, my math is not based on any values the devs have put up but through testing it, simply go get 100 med deplete your mana completely and start a stop watch. then you will find out that med gives 1.07 mana per second at 10 int and 1.39 at 125 int. so in turn that is 10 mr as 1 mr = .10 mana per second.

    The only thing that has changed with mr is the amount you get from items is subject to diminishing returns so if you have 100med and 0mr items you essentially have 10mr if you add 5mr items to that you can assume you have 13mr if you add 20 mr you can assume you only reach 18mr, the math is more complicated than that but the math for mana regen from just med and focus has not changed