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Racials and Warriors - The JoAT Nerf

Discussion in 'UHall' started by PlayerSkillFTW, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    After being away for about a year and a half, i come back to find out that they nerfed the -Mana Cost on Specials from Human JoAT. Before the nerf, my Macer with 120 Macing/120 Resist/GM Tact/GM Anat/GM Healing/GM Focus/80 Chiv used 20 Mana per Special (Not counting LMC). 120 Wep Skill+JoAT gave enough skill points for -10 Special Cost. Now with the nerf, it's 30 Mana per special. I'd like this nerf to be reverted.

    They pretty much killed the practical reasons for being a Human Warrior with the JoAT nerf. Before, the -10 Mana Cost to specials could balance out against the +20 Mana that Elves get, if you do multiple Specials, or especially if you chained them. First special would cost 20 Mana (-10), 2nd special within 3 secs would cost 40 Mana (-20) for a total of 30 Mana being saved over the course of 2 specials, out doing the +20 Mana that Elves get.
    Since they made it to where JoAT skills do not affect Special Cost, Elves and Gargoyles make superior Warriors, Mages and Craftsman. Humans make better Harvesters when you're after Leather/Iron Ingots/Plain Wood. Human Warriors and Mages are purely for aesthetics. Here's a comparison of the Racials.

    Humans have +2 HP Regen, +60-90 Stone Carry Weight, +10% Resources Harvested, and the nerfed JoAT. Nothing here stands out as being particularly useful to a Warrior. Only thing i've found remotely useful, is the chance to cast Attunement/Gift of Renewal (Which was actually pretty decent with Lvl 6 Arcane Focus), 20.0 Tracking (For PvP) and the 20% chance to hide.

    Elves have +20 Mana, +5 Energy Resist Cap, Night Sight, 40.0 Passive Detect Hidden, Harder to Track/Detect, and better chance at extracting special resources. The +20 Mana/+5 Energy Resist Cap is great for any template.

    Gargoyles have Berserk (+15% Dam Inc/+3% SDI per 20% Health lost), +5% HCI Cap, +2 Mana Regen, 30.0 Racial Mysticism, 20.0 Racial Throwing, +Chance for Imbuing/Unraveling, and Flight. These racials make them superior Warriors.

    I hope they balance out the Races one of these days.
     
  2. Vertigo

    Vertigo Guest

    Welcome back and good luck trying to get that reverted, lol.
     
  3. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Yeah, i also think that Chiv and Necro should count towards the -Mana Cost, since Bushido and Ninjitsu do. The JoAT nerf likely came along because of Mages with 120 Wep Skill were getting cheaper specials with it, and they already have a huge mana pool. Lots of Warrior skills/abilities have been nerfed because Mages picked them up too.
     
  4. GreekHero

    GreekHero Guest

    It's called promoting the new templates so that people go buy the expansions/custom characters and support the game... Do not worry in the next expansion when dwarfs will be overpowered your template will be back to normal!
     
  5. Fink

    Fink Guest

    The races will never be balanced as long as they keep inventing differences between them.

    (But wait, is she talking about UO or real life? omg!)
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Gargs really aren't better warriors for the simple reason that they cant ride am armored swampy. The only thing that is really good is the +5 hci max and maybe the 2 MR, but it doesn't make up for lack of a swampy when it comes to living through the attacks of bosses.

    Elves are probably the best warriors honestly, cause they get 5 extra energy resist and free mana.

    Humans could use a little something extra though. Man, I would kill for the "tough" trait to be a DCI boost, like gargs have with deadly aim.
     
  7. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    If I remember correctly, it wasn't mages, it was the moving shot archers. I will see if I can dig up the thread. Wasn't a very popular nerf, but they did not revert.

    For mages to activate the specials, they still needed to have the requisite 70/90 weaponskill and tactics. So it isn't a very useful template even with human JOAT mana reduction.
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    You are seriously underselling the ability to cast Attunement and Gift of Renewal. Both of those can be extremely effective if used intelligently. And the bonus to weight limits can be very useful as well.

    Harlequin is correct, this had nothing to do with mages, and everything to do with seriously op archer templates. This change was a good one and pvp is more balanced than I've ever seen it right now.
     
  9. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    As noted before, Mages haven't been able to invoke special weapon moves without real weapon skill for years before the JOAT nerf (if ever).

    On the other hand, I do think it was BS to nerf melee characters like my own, in order to stop an archery abuse. The more fair way of handling it SHOULD have been to increase the mana cost of that archery special move (or that special move for archery weapons only) by 10 or 15 mana.

    And what's truly laughable is I asked about adding Chivalry to the list, and the response I got from an apparently clueless dev that "Chivalry is a spellcasting skill, not a combat skill like Bushido & Ninjitsu."

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??????
     
  10. Not all Developers actually played UO?
     
  11. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Here's one of the threads that discussed the issue with issue with moving shot:

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=173671



    And one of the threads that discussed the impact of the JOAT nerf:

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1596064



    I converted my warrior back to a human for JOAT and have remained a human even after the nerf due to the other benefits of JOAT. MR 3, hiding, wraith form, enough spirit speak for curse weapon to last a couple of secs, magery to cast protection (yes, a warrior in protection), etc etc

    I can understand the nerf, but still, I wished they found some other way to balance moving shots and other specials that people tend to chain like AI.

    But my idea was something like triple mana and quadruple mana if the player kept chaining it. After thinking over, this would have hurt even worse. At least the JOAT nerf can be countered by getting other skills like parry, bushido, ninjitsu etc

    So the JOAT nerf was still better than any half-cocked idea I could think of.
     
  12. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I've done the same but mine were human to start with. I've never thought about protection before but I'm thinking my stealth gimp might be running that tonight for the no fiz wolf form.
     
  13. Splup

    Splup Guest

    This.

    And that 20 medit+20 focus also boosts the effects of the MR on your suit. Also 20 poisoning can be handy sometimes, also tracking. Being also able to use 5th circle magery spells from scrolls sometimes if needed is nice.
     
  14. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Lets be honest the worst part of this whole thing was not the nerf.

    The only bit which i cannot stand and / or understand is stealth being considered a combat skill.

    The actual "nerf" makes no difference to any of my dexxers, who i rarely play, no affect to my sampire. None to my archer. None even to the Dexxer tamer.

    I have not noticed a single difference since the "nerf". Mind you that could be because i use bushido on alot of them.
     
  15. This is why spell channeling weapons shouldn't exist.
     
  16. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    It's not the spell channeling weapons where the issue lies but the current mass imbued plainsword or wands which negate the whole need for a weapon skill and free up 120 points, sigh how my dexxer would abuse this.
     
  17. Splup

    Splup Guest

    No, it came along cause archers in PvP were able to chain specials like hell without investing any extra skill points in combat skills. Tactmage wouldnt give a crap if he gets the -10 mana cost or not, they don't chain specials. They cast and use the one hit special in a combo.
     
  18. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Helloooooooo

    Use Best Weapon skill?!?

    Does exactly the same thing...lol
     
  19. But UBWS wasn't available "on demand," and you'd need pretty darn good mods on it for you to use it.
     
  20. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    What the hell you talking about!?!

    Its exactly the same property weight as SC, which also requires mage weapon oh and probably FC.

    So again...wth are you talking about??

    I have many
    30ssi
    ubws
    50hld
    50hlight
    25(ish) DI
     
  21. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    What? UBWS lets me run around with which skill in the same fashion as a -(skill point) mage weap lets me. At no point in the past did UBWS let a person not have to have a weapon skill it might have let me use a mace/sword or fencing weapon but I still had to have the base skill.

    I might have misread the joke in here, if so whoops....
     
  22. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I think it would be great if they reworked the way race affects game play. The way alot of the things are now should be more based on the skill itself rather than on the race.

    Mana bonuses should be a direct affect of the skill. For example: a swordsman at 100 would use more concentration than a swordsman at 120.

    So, if a swordsman uses a special move, he should have a lower mana cost bonus given to him directly by the skill not by the race. This should go above the cap of lower mana cost or add to your lower mana cost.

    I would rather see things that could be balanced out by the player for racial bonuses unless they exceed the cap or allow for that cap to be raised. For example: 160 strength on a gargoyle, an elf with a hit chance above cap and only with a bow.

    I could see slight advantages or differences but when it comes to basic moves that are needed by both to be balanced it makes you wonder if they should be made differently.

    Like another way it could be done is instead of looking at a race as having a permanent advantage. For example: To say all gargoyles or all elves, just doesn't seem right because then your saying an elf could only do this or a gargoyle could only do that. They should be equal but have a chance of the increased accuracy, although I could understand the night sight.
     
  23. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Let me put it simply for you.

    A mage requires 120 points of magery to gain 120 points of defensive weapon skill(cant really be used offensively)

    A dexxer requires 120 points of weapon skill to gain 360points of defensive AND offensive weapon skill (they can use any of the 3 melee type weapons)

    So both invest 120 points and a dexxer get way more out of it!
     
  24. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Yes that nerf was publish 46. That publish was orchestrated by Guildmule (a pvm player and Jeremy (UO Community Coordinator) over email. It was Guildmules vision to make UO a more class type system. The changes were done and cemented before the PvP focus group was even organized, which by the way didn't effect any changes. The focus group was no more than an audience.

    At the time everyone just wanted damage caps and that was it. 46 killed a lot of templates and fun play for both mages and warriors.

    JCBuilder probably has a better memory than I, but I do still have some stingy emails from Jeremy when she canned the first PvP focus group.
     
  25. No You can not use Evade with UBWS
     
  26. This can't be the weight of an item like that would be over 450. And is you add a gm weapon in the mix you lose a mod to DI goes up even more. COULD get luck with a val hammer but so few of those weapons turn out with the correct mix of mods. (Going to double check my statement now.)

    I think Mage Weapons are ruining the game too. My mages run wrestling. I guess it's from playing old style before - mage weapons
     
  27. 110 = SSi 30%
    140 = UBWS
    130 = HLD 50%
    140 = Hit Lightning 50%
    040 = 20% DI
    560 Total.
    This is not something that would be on a common roll nor is it imbue-able.

    JoaT is fine how it is now.. Leave it be.
     
  28. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah it was. I personally think they need to remove stealth from reducing mana costs also or put death strike on the double mana cost timer like weapon special moves. Ninja's are running rampant spamming 7+ specials in pvp.
     
  29. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Humans were overpowered, and needed to be nurfed.
     
  30. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    73 = 30 SSI with 10 free from enhancing
    140 = UBWS
    130 = HLD 50%
    140 = Hit Lightning 50%
    16 = 28% damage increase on an old school exceptional bow (20 is free)

    499 Total

    It certainly is possible... ;)
     
  31. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    You...do know that magery has spells right? So that means you get spells, and the same defense/tohit as someone with the weapon skill

    The ONLY thing ubws does is let you pick different weapons. Swords mace and fence are all functionally the exact same skill.

    Im not anti mage weapon, your argument is just nonsensical.
     
  32. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Umm... A dexer would have to invest 90 more skill points in tactics to get both special moves to work from any weapon and any damage output of any sort. Then on top of it they can't heal with out investing more points in something else. Magery allows a player to heal(among other things) and defend themselves(if they have a -mage weapon on). I don't get how you think they get more out of there skill investment.