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Refine for DCI vs Resist

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Tuan, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    In a thread in Crafter forum someone asked the question "Has anyone thought about running 70DCI vs dexxers?"

    The question, and answer are probably more pertinent to this forum, so I'll repost my answer here.

    Part of the problem of asking "against dexxies" is that there's a lot more to consider than against monsters, that will just hit you (hard). Dexxers have a host of special moves to choose from.

    Lets simplify things. We will make a few assumptions. First (most important) both you and your attacker have 120 WS. In PVP, I assume this is a given; PVM - maybe not, some monsters have >120. Also, we need to decide whether or not you'll be mounted. In PVM, we'd assume yes, in PVP, I'd say this is not a safe assumption. Also, in PVP, I think we can safely assume that your opponent will have 45 HCI. In PVM this would be 0.

    Here's the hit chance formula from UOSS:
    Hit Chance% = ( ( [Attacker's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Attacker's Hit Chance Increase] ) divided by
    ( [Defender's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Defender's Defense Chance Increase] * 2 ) ) * 100

    So, we're looking at: ((140 * 145) / (140 * ((100+DCI)*2))) * 100 as the chance that you'll get hit.
    Lets take a look at some possible values of DCI:
    With -5 DCI (lets assume you refined for 75 resist, takes you down to 20 base, and then you get hit by HLD): 76.3%
    With 0 DCI, the chance you'll get hit is: ~72.5%
    With 20 DCI (what you're left with when you have 45, and get hit my HLD): 60.4%
    With 45 DCI: 50
    With 70 DCI: 42.6

    Note that this all assumes you've got no chance to parry, and no chance to reduce your opponents HCI (I suppose ideally you'd run HLA, but that might not be a possibility on your looted splinter butcher knife for instance).

    So, lets look at the expected damage per swing. This is Damage * chance to hit * armor reduction. Lets pick a nice round number for the weapon damage: 50 (actually this is pretty reasonable too, like someone using a butcher knife or something is probably right around 50 damage). Note I will assume you're all 70s even past whatever the opponent may do, or your own spells (corpse skins etc).

    @45 dci: 50 * .5 * .3 = 7.5
    @20 dci(45 + penalty from HLD) = 9

    @70 DCI (now you only have 65 armor) 50 * .43 * .35 = 7.6
    @45 DCI (65 resist, but you've been HLD) = 8.75

    Hmm, so in PVP, it lo0ks like it doesn't really matter, you're either getting hit for 8 or 9 damage per hit no matter what. BUT... now you need to account for all the OTHER stuff that comes with "getting hit" means.

    Most people in PVP are going to use some sort of special, or rely on their weapons do do something other than "deal weapon damage". In almost all cases you want to get hit less, but right more damage per hit, IMO. This will prevent you from getting poisoned/bleed/splintered/para'd/AI'd/mortal/ etc, none of which really takes your resists into effect.

    One interesting thing to ponder would be hit spell. Lightning, per UOSS, does 30-34 base damage. If you've got 70 ER, then 34 * .7 = 10.2, 65 ER = 11.9 damage. Lets try to include this in the above calculation.

    Lets assume a weapon with 50% Hit Lightning.
    Now the calculation is (weapon damage + (spell damage * hit spell chance)) * resist) * hit chance
    @45dci: (50 + (34 * .5 )) * .3 * .5 = 10.05
    @20 dci: 12.06

    @70 DCI: 10.08
    @ 45 DCI: 11.73

    Looks again like the 70DCI comes out ahead on an expected value per swing standpoint. Granted, we know you're not taking 10 or 12 damage every 1.25, you're taking either 0, 8 or 18, or 0, 8, or 21.

    Given that so much of the value of a weapon in PVP comes not from the weapon's base damage, but what ELSE it can do when it does hit (specials, hit effects, etc) and that the kind-of worse case scenario is that when you do get hit, you only take 3 more dmg, it seems to me that in PVP, 70 DCI is the way to go against a dexxer.

    As an additional thought, I've been pondering, and I'm beginning to wonder if going 70DCI/Stone form might not be quite powerful in PVM. I did some testing a while back on TC and made a suit of all 71s, then popped into stone form, thinking I might go to 81s... Nope, just 80s. Either way though, being able to be all 75s AND have 70DCI... that's a very defensive template.
     
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  2. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Keeper

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    Great post. Have you got similar info for 70 vs 75 resist against 15 and 30 SDI?
     
  3. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Sorry, but I am not sure I follow what you're asking.
     
  4. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Keeper

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    Well you've looked at the numbers for the 70 DCI vs dexxers. I was wondering if you had the numbers for 75 resists vs casters (both hybrids and pures)?
     
  5. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    The calculation to see how much damage you take would be:

    BaseSpellDmg * modifiers * ((100 - resist) /100).

    I assume a pure mage has 120 eval and 100 inscr, and 30 SDI.

    Interestingly, neither UOSS nor UOGuide list the true base damage on spells. The Eval bonus is Eval*3/100 +1, so at 120, that's 4.6, GM inscr gives another 1.1. Both sites seem to agree that at GM in both an EB does 51-56, so lets say 50 for ease of computation.

    Against someone with 0SDI if you have 70 resist you'd take
    50 * .3 = 15
    If you have 75
    50*.25 = 12.5 so 13.
    If you have 65 you take
    50 * .35 = 17.5 so 18.

    These numbers seem about right, given that I have 70 resist, and when something with 200 Eval, like the mage master in blackthorns I take about 23-25 damage which is right in line with there I'd expect.

    Ok, so with 15 SDI
    57.5 * .3 = 17.25
    57.5 * .25 = 14.375
    57.5 * .35 = 20.125

    with 30 sdi
    65 * .3 = 19.5
    65 * .25 = 16.25
    65 * .35 = 22.75

    I'm not really sure what you mean about a hybrid mage. I assume that means without inscr... so then just take all the numbers and multiply them by .9. I then assume that a hybrid would be somewhat planning on relying on swinging a weapon too... so then you need to combine the two concepts.

    Seems to me... against a pure made, you want the 75 resist. Against a hybrid probably the DCI.
     
  6. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Keeper

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    By Hybrids I meant that non pure mages have SDI capped at 15 for PvP.

    So if you're a dexxer and fighting dexxers and mages, the two kind of cancel each other out? (One wanting 70 dci, the other wanting 75 resist I mean)
     
  7. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Yep, that sure seems to be the case
    Looks like it.
     
  8. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Don't do it!
     
  9. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    I really want to refine my suit to 75 resists for PvM... It's just too damn hard to collect all the refinements.
     
  10. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    It takes time, yes, but it's not difficult - all you need is some lock picking and some stealing. Then you just visit various shops in fel.
     
  11. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    See I consider the chance of even getting the right armor refinement too damn low, then you have a 50% chance of it being the type you want, then five different levels... Ugh.
     
  12. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    The amalgamator helps a bit, but yeah... it still takes a lot of time to get enough refinements to get all 75s. Specially since you still have a chance to only get 4 properties instead of 5.
     
  13. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    If you get hit with HLD at 66% DCI you'll go down to 42% DCI.

    If you get hit with HLD at 60% DCI you'll go down to 37% DCI.

    If you get hit with HLD at 45% DCI you'll go down to 30% DCI.

    The question is, do you think it's worth refining for +20% DCI, when someone can hit you with HLD and leaving you with 10% DCI difference to someone without refining.

    I think HLD should be a flat decrease across the board, whatever number it may be.
     
    #13 sibble, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
  14. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    Hmm, ok, so I missed that it is a scalar multiplier, not a simple subtraction (as it is in PVM).

    I suspect that in PVP, it is still worth it to go for more DCI over more resist, because in PVP not getting hit at all - to avoid all the extra stuff that goes along with being hit: hit spell, being HLA, HLD, bleed, splintered, special moves etc., is likely more important than the 2 or 3 more damage per hit you'll take.

    All of the equations are in my posts above: feel free to rework them to correct my failed assumption and provide your thoughts.

    HLD used to be a flat 25% decrease until pub 81.
     
  15. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    1) 20 * 0.65 = 13, so if you refine 20% DCI the difference under HLD effect will be 13 DCI (not 10).

    2) when you have 70% DCI opponent has less chance to hit you and so he has less chance to apply HLD effect

    3) in PvP often who first applies 'bad effect' (like splinter/disarm/fww) usually gets a huge advantage... so every single HC percent increases your chance to win
     
  16. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Go refine for 65's across the board and meet up with a scribe mage with a focusing sash and lemme know how it goes!
     
  17. Kurik

    Kurik Adventurer
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    If I'm not wrong, dci is capped at 45 in pvp. Over capping it won't have any effect.
     
  18. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    No one in this thread has suggested otherwise. In fact, the OP (wait - that's me) actually says "against a pure made, you want the 75 resist".

    Ok, ok. Mea culpa: I have a typo in there, 'made' instead of 'mage'. I see now how you might be confused.
     
  19. Kurik

    Kurik Adventurer
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    That's ok. Confused is my natural stage anyway :)
     
  20. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    So, in PvM which would you prefer?
    Against a single opponent (champ/peerless)?
    Against multiple opponents (like running into the middle of a champ spawn and agro'ing everyone on him)?
     
  21. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    In basically all PVM situations other than where you know something is totally 1 dimensional, I'd just go with a general purpose suit. For a general all purpose suit, I'd go both ways... something like 73/73/68/68/70 (75 elf) with 43 DCI. So you save a few points off common damage types, but retain most of your DCI. VERY few things hit hard with cold or poison damage.

    Sure, against something that you know hits hard with poison damage or cold, or melee only, you could optimize better, but that's really specialized.

    Although... if you reforge mana drain on your weapon to use against the hardest casters, even the casters won't be able to do much casting after a few hits. I think something would need roughly 1000 eval to magic arrow me to death... If you were to go this route, as long as you can survive the first few rounds when they're mana dumping, then you could refine to 70 70 65 65 65 (70 elf)

    For the record I only run a 70s suit, because I'm too lazy to actually implement any of my plans. I've got everything I need to build a new one with 35 SSI on the suit so I can run longswords instead of broadswords, I just haven't gotten around to it.

    Here's an example where counter logic is probably the right one. The one type of fencer invasion master. Against my 70s, on an armored swampy, she still hits for 65-70 damage. I know that the numbers say to go 65s and max the DCI. Here's the problem. When you're at 70s and you get hit twice back to back, with ~150 HP, you're almost surely still alive. If you refine down to 65, now instead of taking 70 damage, you take 81, 2 of which is not survivable. Refine up to 75 phy and you only take 59 dmg - now it takes 3 hits while you don't heal to kill you... but then again, this is the same for my hybrid suit idea too.
     
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  22. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    75 res all with 20 dci... well, may be less cold/poison and 25-30 dci. I would refined for all 80 res and negative dci if it was possible.
    I PvM usually most important factor is max damage in one-two second you can get. And it is not so important how often it usually happen (well, several percent difference doesn't important).
    Usually huge damage in one second is a combo (melee + spell, breath + melee, rarely spell + spell).
    A hypothetical monster that has 100 hit chance and does 25 damage every hit is a *****. And a monster that has 1 hit chance and does 250 damage every 100th hit is a super killer.
     
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  23. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I was thinking of high resist / low DCI to free up a couple of slots for other things. But, was wanting other view points.
     
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  24. Tuan

    Tuan Slightly Crazed

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    That is a very valid point that I hadn't considered. 1 legendary with 100+ resist and you're set for all 75s. Getting to 70 DCI would likely be problematic in and of itself.
     
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  25. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    For PvM, refining resist is pretty advisable.
    Monsters don't hit with hit lower attack, hit lower defence, splinter, etc.
    But they can dump a lot of spells on you, and higher resists help more there than DCI.
     
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