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Restrictive number of abilities

Discussion in 'Project: Gorgon Discussion Hall' started by Tinari, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. Tinari

    Tinari Visitor

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    Hello! I'll put a line of dashes when I get to my point instead of rambling on because I do like to ramble. The important summarized bit is at the bottom.

    I have played Project: Gorgon and so far I have been enjoying it. I have to wonder about the number of abilities we have access to though, it seems rather limiting.

    Now, I am all for preventing people from using everything all together or even too many things, but perhaps I am a bit more in preference of the old-fashioned MMO/Game feel where you have dozens and dozens of actions you can do and lots of situational abilities you'd like to have at the call that aren't worth keeping on a general rotation.

    But as it sits right now, you're only able to use two skills with six abilities per skill, as well as potentially six support skills. The rigidity of this system is only further augmented when you consider how some skills are tied in to the specific weapon that uses them, which to me seems really silly (for example, using sword and unarmed together isn't terribly effective, and fire magic with a shield... hrm, I'll have to try that!)

    So what this got me to thinking more about is the fact of... other than "variety" or "because you can" or even some people willing to keep enough gear items on them on hand and switch them around when they enter dungeons to handle them more efficiently, why should anyone learn more than two skills? Some have special "support" abilities, but in a way it seems like it would be nice for every skill set to have "support" abilities in a way... but currently things are locked into "active" and "support" only and it breaks apart.

    Martial Arts has "kick" which knocks an enemy away and, sometimes, that'd be nice to have when I am on a shield and sword using fighter. Even a fire mage may want to do that and really, what's preventing you from using at least a modicum of your sword skills when using a staff and throwing fireballs?

    What if nearly every skill had abilities for support or could be put into the support bar anyway? Kick is a basic unarmed attack everyone can learn, but if you have a sword and shield, you can't do it anymore? Daft! What if instead of explicit "support" skills, any skill could be put on the support bar, but only ONE from each skill archtype to prevent it from just becoming "another hotbar"?

    What if you could be a fireball horking staff mage, but you could put a "harrying shot" archer ability as a support skill to slow the enemy approach (or slow their escape!)

    What if the Cow Psychologist was a martial arts master with Headbutt III and wanted to sometimes slam/gore with their head while mooing unflattering things about somebodies linage?

    Heck, even some abilities could be slightly decoupled from their weapon reliance. Rain of Blows is "swords" only? What's to stop you from applying all that sword skill and training and working it into a Rain of Blows with your staff, or even a buckler if it's light enough?

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    REVAMP SUPPORT SKILLS!

    I propose we allow the Support Skills bar to be used for more than "explicit" support skills. I think that every skill class should have some way to carry over at least ONE skill from an active skill group that they can use in their basic setup. Here are some bullet point listed ideas about how, why, what, and how to balance.


    - Only one skill from a specific active skill group can be on the support bar at any given time. You can bring health weave and kick OR body slam, but not both kick AND body slam.

    - Any skill using as a support skill has increased cooldown and/or reduced effectiveness and/or increased power cost to drive home the "support" aspect of the skill and signify the extra effort of using skills you're not focused on.

    - Skills that require specific weapons (swords, archery, etc) either cannot be used (archery?) or with even more reduced effectiveness/higher costs. (trying to use aquatoxin bomb without holding a flask?)

    - You do not gain experience for active skills used as a support as it is not your main focus in combat.


    Anyone else have any thoughts? Yea, nay? Been talked about before, am I late to the party?
    Thanks for reading, specially if you read my whole ramble. :)
     
  2. Luka Melehan

    Luka Melehan Certifiable
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    Welcome to Stratics! I sent Eric a notification about this post yesterday
     
  3. Tinari

    Tinari Visitor

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    This seems to have fallen way behind with no contributions from anyone.

    I am just getting more light to this, and if I have to post a large number of reasons for this, I can. regardless to say, I am a person who is more about the character themselves being the source of power. Not their gear. Not even their "class" as it is. But their combination of classes. Currently this game gives you two classes to combine at all, and if you look at tons of screen shots, they all have almost the exact same "support bar" as anyone else. It's almost depressing the depth this game can tease at, but never reach with it's absurd restriction on abilities.

    Am I seriously the only person who feels this?
     
  4. Claudel GFX

    Claudel GFX Visitor

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    well at least for me, till this point when it comes to skills... since you can't really call a mix of skills from 2 diff weapons, a class type... oh well, you can't really call them anything else but mixed skills, the gameplay its pretty much like a jack-of-all-trades, when you go into detail, thats why it wont appeal for many since pretty much anyone whom has been playing mmorpgs for a while will always like to have limits when it comes to skills and that way every player can choose a path, from the start, or reskill later in the game when they figure out better the actual pros and cons about each type, for example theres another mmo called Loong online/noadintented/, that has something similar in terms of skill system + weapon types, for example, you can have 2 weapons and 2 diff skill sets, for example at any point in time, you can mix them or reskill and switch gear, like at any point during the gameplay, you can be both dps and healer, you can evan be a tank and a healer, or you can be a mage dps and a healer at the same time, since all it will be required in order to use both skill trees are the weapons equipped, yet again you dont have to switch your armor set, just the weapons, but that games dual-wielding system is a lot more fun to use and obviously ONE cannot and use everything in the game, like learning every single skill ingame, and also use it, otherwise that will make it a single player, and not an mmo, so obviously the combat systems require some limits, if one player can do everything, what would be the point of having other players, the support will no longer be required...
     
  5. Gremror

    Gremror Adventurer

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    But one player can't just do everything. Maxing all the combat skills doesn't mean you can play every role. Equipment is the biggest restriction. The time, effort, and luck it takes to find all the specialised gear for even a single combat skill is extremely great - now times that by two. And you've got inventory restrictions as well. Even if you maxed all the combat skills, found all the specialised gear, and had enough inventory space in game/using alts - you STILL wouldn't be able to just do everything, because the time it takes jumping between between the different storage chests and alts makes it totally unfeasible from any sort of practical perspective.

    Players pick 2 main combat skills. Those skills are their core two - the ones they're best with, the ones they have the most and best gear for. They might max out all their combat skills, and they might use a 2/3 other combat skills from time to time, they might even carry a few bits of equipment for those other combat skills. But push comes to shove those 2 combat skills are their main.

    The game give people freedom from locked-in classes, and the flexibility to define and redefine their role(s) in the game. But at the same time, it rewards loyalty and perseverance, as those sticking with only a few combat skills will find themselves masters of those skills whilst their jack-of-all-trades peers will find themselves merely proficient.

    Lvl 50 Fire Magic means nothing with the right gear. Lvl 50 Necromancy means even less - high end pet boosting gear is mandatory if you want to use the skill, and it's not easy to come by.
     
  6. Macrophage

    Macrophage Journeyman
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    I agree with the OP. The ability limitations are very frustrating.
    _ Most abilities are on a timer, which means you often are out of any ability you can cast
    _ It s close to impossible to make any real combinations out of your abilities - besides Pain Bubble followed by your maximum damage tricks...
    This game needs to introduce TACTICS in combats to make it more enjoyable.
     
    #6 Macrophage, Jun 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  7. Rojjin

    Rojjin Visitor

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    a) the game is gear based plain and simple.
    b)
    if you run out of abilities to cast at any point you need to rethink your play style
    and 3) 3 instead of c just to torture ocd
     
  8. Tinari

    Tinari Visitor

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    I am likely not the only person to think this... but...

    In my own personal opinion, gear should never, EVER be the biggest focus of a game. The character, the character's levels, and the characters skills should always be the biggest trump card in their "vocabulary of pain"

    Gear should be unique enough that each named piece of gear, regardless of it's a level 10 swordsman sword, should make it considered. If two swordsmen duel and it comes down to gear beyond skill, then I really feel like there is a huge failing.

    I have very much enjoyed the time I played Project Gorgon, until I felt that "gear" grind. I enjoy the two skill classes I used, and made another character to try various other things, and even tried to level as a spider as well, but the fact that "gear" is the biggest part and not just a minor supplementary thing was kind of depressing, honestly.

    "Do not fear my sword, for it is a bit of metal beaten into a useful shape. You need to fear me, the one who wields it."

    I do not feel that in this game. I have maxed out my craft of swordsman ship, but I suddenly cannot use it in any way possible if my "two main" don't involve the "swordsman" skill at all? I cannot be the greatest swordsman in the world practicing other things in the land and not have the footwork, ability to parry, knowing how to disarm or dissuade an enemy because it's just "not on my mind" at the moment?

    That is the entire point of what I tried to say, but if it is as others have said, then I guess there is no place for me. I have never enjoyed games where "gear" is the main determining factor of things. Be it WoW and it's various clones, Diablo 3, or whatever else. I guess I am very much more even old-school than Project Gorgon. A level 10 fighter with a +1 sword would likely stomp a level 6 fighter with a +3 Flaming sword, due to his innate abilities and better knowledge. Not gear.

    "Do not fear my sword, for it is a bit of metal beaten into a useful shape. You need to fear me, the one who wields it."

    I'm not feeling it. I am sorry.
     
  9. Gremror

    Gremror Adventurer

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    Tinari, if.that's what you want out of this game then you're gonna have to ask them to tear down literally everything they've done in the game for the past few years and start a new game from fresh.

    Project Gorgon is about player freedom; all players can potentially learn all the skills. But by doing this they run into the problem that every player could master every skill. If that was possible, then this would cease to be an MMO. It would just be lots of individuals doing their own separate thing who just happened to share a world. It would be dull, boring, and pointless.

    Their solution is that players are restricted by the gear they possess. An example:

    Yesterday some of us met up, and we had our pets fight it out in the new PvP zone. Of the players present, I was the newest and least experienced. More than one of them had maxed out most, if not all, of their combat skills. But when it came to the brawl, I won. How did beat players who have been playing more than ten times as long as me? I specialise in Necromancy; I have the gear to make really strong pets.
     
  10. Citan

    Citan Project: Gorgon Developer
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    The game's strategy comes largely from picking your abilities and picking gear that enhances it in ways you like. It's akin to building a Magic the Gathering deck -- there are tons of possibilities, but you can only pick a few at a time. The fun comes in trying different combinations and seeing what works and what doesn't against different opponents. Unlike a typical MMO, our gear doesn't just boost stats; they also give out unique abilities that synergies with different skills in different ways. Because of this, it's possible to use Psychology for healing, crowd control, or debuffing... depending on what gear and abilities you choose.

    I think that's an exciting thing, compared to the typical MMO which has basically no build strategy in it. I realize it won't be for everybody, and if the game mechanics keep you from being able to enjoy the character fiction you have in your head, that sucks, and I definitely understand that, but it's not something we'd be interested in changing at this point. "Building" your character -- and rebuilding, and tweaking, and experimenting -- via gear and new abilities is basically the entire game.
     
  11. Tinari

    Tinari Visitor

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    Hey Citan! As I said before, I love Project Gorgon and have had a few friends play with me from time to time!

    That said, back to my point, while I may not be able to ever wrap my head around your concept of "building" like a deck, a ton of tools with a limited selection, I think my preference has been shaped by playing older games with more customization on the actual character rather than on the gear, and gear was unique in the game I am thinking. You could very much find a sword that casts fireballs randomly while attacking and build your knight with a large amount of Dexterity to capitalize on that! "best in slot" was a weird term and the level of the gear itself had no bearing, and for the most part (barring armor and specialized weapons for some classes) anyone could wear anything and try to make it work. Wizards who smack you around with their staves were even viable if you really wanted.

    What I think I see in the 'gear' department in Project Gorgon right now feels kind of like what I referred to as the "Diablo 3" trap. By giving gear extremely specific unique abilities (+damage to this ONE skill, while using this very specific subset of skills, get Y shield, etc...) you create an issue where you are now suddenly reliant on this one piece of gear if you want to use that ONE skill, or that subset of skills. Believe me, the first time I found boots of kicking that healed me on kicks, I found I had put kicks more into my rotation. Even though these were ancient moldy boots, I felt like I really couldn't take them off as the heal was significant towards my survival, given how bad my survival was as a martial artist. :3

    I don't think I will get anything changed, not at all. I like the discussion. The game is coming along nicely, and those who play the game in it's system seem to be enjoying it. I guess my only issue is with it feeling like a gear grinder just to get that one really good item that will make my build work, when my build is a pick two... rather than a game about character growth and progression. As I stated earlier, tying 'better gear" into "character growth" always feels very unrewarding for me. That and if I were to give you a screenshot of another game I play where I have around sixty hot keys... (granted, I generally use 5 in combat, four for 'bursting' in combat, five to switch to different weapon sets, and the other 30 are stances, buffing spells I may need to cast, etc, etc.) :D
     
  12. Macrophage

    Macrophage Journeyman
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    That is an interesting concept but to be able to experiment you need to provide easier ways to supply armor as I wrote in another thread. The player needs to have a better grip on the properties he can get on his items