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Return to Order - Virtue/Vice

Discussion in 'UO Europa' started by Loriel, May 23, 2015.

  1. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Well there is a reason Chaos has its own tenets that are the vice to Order's Virtue.

    Even in apparent Chaos, Order is ever present and even if there is a delay in bringing back the balance to the struggle, Order presents itself to the fore once more.

    It is a misconception that Chaos represents Freedom to choose what and how you represent yourself as being and that is most apparent in the way that the Virtues were turned into Draconian Laws by KB.

    You can choose to represent Chaos by deception in the way that followers of Chaos do by utilising the principles of Virtue in a manner that is "out of Order" so to speak.

    Taking things that do not belong to you and then wreathing yourself in false justification that it was only in order to protect the Virtues or that this protection without inclination toward Virtue itself is somehow acceptable if "everyone" is doing it.

    That is Chaos for you people and look what it has wrought in its destructive tendencies.... only with Order and Virtue can the Shards be restored and their strength consolidated to save Sosaria.
     
  2. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    To put it simply... Chaos is Order's Virtues corrupted and subverted for ill gotten gains so let this propaganda for Chaos be burnt away for all to see clearly.
     
  3. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Actually, Chaos and Virtue are a bit different: originally, the Virtues are a way to unite all the Gem's shards back to restore the status quo - if every single person on every shard follows them - that is, to create some kind of "resonance" of minds between them. That's what LB assumed. Lord Blackthorn opposed this theory, stating that this would leave no room for differences in individuals - thus creating the ideology of Chaos. The opposition of Order and Chaos is hence ideological. LB was still good friends with Blackthorn (my friend Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Pony Princess would often say "friendship is magic") and would not press on the ideology of Chaos.

    The Order's Virtues corrupted is another thing tied to Chaos, but it, despite being made by Blackthorn in LB's absence, has little common with the ideology of Chaos - these are just some kind of draconic laws Blackthorn replaced Virtues with - perhaps simply to discreditate the ideology of Virtues - he really feared that the shards would unite if everyone accepts Virtue.
     
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  4. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Yes you see therein lies the deceit he has employed to subvert Virtue... This resonance or unity of intention/inclination is simply a medium of communication in a diverse universe of Virtue cultivating citizenry.

    Secondly Blackthorn's opposition to this and support for the shattering of Sosaria, in his pride and greed for power allows only his narrow minded interpretation of what a united and Virtuous Sosaria would look like and so he displaces this perspective on all around him.

    He commits sacrilege by defiling the Virtues into Laws when they are to be cultivated as traits in a person's character through their own choice, not forced upon them in shame that they aren't as virtuous as they should be.

    What is most wrong about all this is that it is simply out despising what is the Virtuous thing to do in any given situation and that is the mark of the most dastardly.
     
  5. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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  6. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    He did not believe his Laws; they were made to make people turn away from Virtues, so to make sure shards will not unite. He thought that would erase every individual self all of them have on different shards - think of old school Schwartzenegger movie about cloning.
     
  7. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Well I understand that completely, however it is like looking at split personality syndrome. Is it healthier to maintain a fractured self identity or is it healthier to work toward a unified mind, working in focused and efficient harmony ?

    Reading about the Guardians of Virtue it seems that this all stems from greed toward power. Blackthorn could not stand to be so close to the Lord British and have such influence without himself ruling the land. He simply stated the opposing view for personal gain and not necessarily because he truly believed his own propaganda.

    However much he believed it is irrelevant because in so doing he set himself on his own path towards Chaos and carved his own tenants as self justification for the usurping of rule.

    That the hypocrisy at the centre of it all remains such a prominent feature of that rule today is the true tenant that powers the engine and drives forward all others.

    The three Principles Love, Truth and Courage and the antithesis of each being Hate, Deception and Cowardice are what people must look at and consider.

    Love... to deal fairly with all and by doing so act as a shining example of how to treat one another with compassion.

    Truth... Let it be tempered with Love and with pure inclination, what is at the heart of the reason you act the way you do ?

    Courage... To stand up for what one believes in against doubters and opponents to Truth and Love being expressed openly and with freedom and without fear, doing so against all odds.
     
  8. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    I don't care about all this, I'm true neutral. The point is, you are wrong about corrupted Virtues being Chaos, and I am right. Admit it, and I can forget about this thread.
     
  9. Jonathen

    Jonathen Sage
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    Order is a framework in which both Virtue and Vice can flourish.

    So is Chaos.

    To equate Order with Virtue (and Chaos with Vice) is like equating Day with Sweet and Night with Salt - the two axes are not parallel, they merely exist in the same space.
     
  10. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Once he admits I am right and he is wrong, I'll be gone from here.
     
  11. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Well what really is order... It is a sequence that brings about balance.

    That is more important than people think.

    The steps in the sequence might virtuous but when virtue falls to be replaced vice then it simply to redress the balance to make way for virtue to resurface and correct what has gone wrong.
     
  12. Escaflowne

    Escaflowne Crazed Zealot
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    Loriel will never admit he is wrong so you might as well give up now Marisa :p
     
  13. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Well it's not about right and wrong in this case, it is about greater knowledge for the greater good.

    I'll send you my degree certificate in Philosophy if you really want to test my credentials.
     
  14. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Also if she takes her time, Marisa will be able to see that I have said nothing contrary to what she did, simply added on top.
     
  15. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    You said that Chaos is perverted Virtues. I said it isn't, then you agreed with me, but said again that perverted Virtues are Chaos. Were you disputing with yourself or something? Can't you simply admit yourself being wrong instead of trying to cut it into some complex wording?
     
  16. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Look if you really want to know what Virtues are about then read up on Aristotle.

    Don't waste your time arguing where there is no argument.
     
  17. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Hang on will quickly summarise. Virtue is the balance of two extreme positions. Example, Bravery is virtuous because it is between Recklessness and Cowardice.
     
  18. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Bravery=Courage
     
  19. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Stop getting off the track, philosopher. We aren't discussing the Virtues, we're talking about Blackthorn's laws not being Chaos, to which you actually agreed and right after that you disagreed with yourself pointing out they are Chaos. I suggest you surrender now and admit youself being wrong, and me right.
     
  20. Escaflowne

    Escaflowne Crazed Zealot
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    Can a mod please move all the bottom posts from my Word of Chaos thread to this thread.
     
  21. Barian

    Barian Always Present
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    A moderator has ...... :pint:
     
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  22. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Admit your defeat and your demise will be quick and painless.
     
  23. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    lol Esca doesn't like his propaganda put to the question
     
  24. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Also can a mod change the title of the thread to Order vs Chaos... I'm not out to advertise Chaos like Esca and now it seems someone wants to make it look like I am.
     
  25. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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  26. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    I want you personally to admit that you were wrong and I was right because you agreed on my point (that the Blackthorn's laws have little to do with Chaos ideology and were made to discredit the Virtue ideology) first, then immediately disagreed with yourself about that. That's something considered a defeat, when you say something and say the opposite thing in the next moment.
     
  27. Escaflowne

    Escaflowne Crazed Zealot
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    Hehe i don't mind my properganda being questioned :) I've debated chaos my whole time in RP as Vesper was a firm follower of it too. Its just the Word of Chaos is a newspaper thread for reports informing people of events and the happenings of the Hand of Chaos. I didnt want it to get clogged up with this debate and throw it off topic :) Thats why i made a new thread so you can continue it here. Not telling you to stop or anything.

    And hey the more you debate Chaos the more you advertise it :) Win win! :D
     
  28. King Don Juan

    King Don Juan Journeyman
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    On the other hand, i like bacon
     
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  29. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Not that kind of Chaos, bacon fellow.