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RL economics discussion from UHall thread "The truth about Gold in Uo.."

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by The Zog historian, May 24, 2015.

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  1. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    That particular solution has been attempted in the real world, e.g. Zimbabwe, but it doesn't in fact do anything if inflation isn't curbed. It's a solution only in the practical aspect of eliminating having to carry around trillion-dollar notes or wheelbarrows of paper money. But monster loot, treasure chests and so on would also have to be scaled down. If everyone's wealth and purchasing power is to be reduced by a factor of 100, then if liches aren't to be as profitable per unit of time, they'll be giving 4 or 5 gold each.

    Yet, in your lack of comprehension of what "percentage" means, you don't realize that because of percentages, vendor fees still don't need any linking to inflation. "Percentage" means they already are. Unless the quantity of money is reduced so drastically a lot of "zeroes" are struck off, the base per-item charge is insignificant.

    As for you, it's clear you know absolutely nothing about me, and likely anyone else on the forum. I have never been a gold seller, but from time to time I have bought gold for real life money (oh the horror! oh the sins on my hands!).

    You're speaking only of yourself. If you haven't anything constructive or at least rebutting, feel free to go away quietly.

    And by the way, I have read Marx and understand him far better than those like you who cling to such nonsense as critiques of capital.[/quote]
     
    #1 The Zog historian, May 24, 2015
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
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  2. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Hardly. "What's worth doing is worth doing for money." Gordon Gekko's criminal actions (i.e. the theft of information) do not detract from the truth of the statement. Anyone, whether "businessmen" or the lowliest labor, don't want "to do well" for its own sake. They want to acquire currency so that they can use it to consume.

    You don't know how economies work. The description "consumer" is itself redundant because any economy is based on everyone producing in one way or another. Even in a fully communist society, people somehow need to produce in order to consume. You can tell that to one of my friends, whose childhood included going with her mother at 3 a.m. in the hope the bread didn't run out before they got through the doors. They were still producers and consumers simultaneously.

    Economies don't begin or end anywhere because of their effectively infinite loops. They aren't maps with edges to sail off of, but globes one circles without end. Of the $10 that a janitor spent one day, $1 could be in an executive's bank account the next day, which with other dollars would fund a lavish lunch that employs people, with some of those dollars winding up at Lowe's, which pays an employee who wants to buy a fast food lunch or T-shirts, and so on. Any UO shard's economy works the same way when people trade.

    No, this is what is meant by "I don't want to have to produce more to get the things I wanted, and people should be forced to provide what I want at the far lower prices." This is what's meant by laziness.

    But it is you who has made greater wealth the issue.

    People already trade with whoever is available, and who provides products at the best perceived value. It doesn't matter if someone has a net worth of 200 billion or 10 million or a newbie pile of 1000 gold pieces. If he has something valuable enough, and asks a price where minds meet, someone will want to buy.

    It's one of those movies intended to be ironic yet has much truth to those who understand how the real world works. At no point for Gekko was it not about money, but even then it was about what to do with that money: "Rich enough not to waste time." Even Bud Fox asked, "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"

    You really picked a bad movie to try critiquing. It's one of my favorites, and having watched it half a dozen times in addition to listening to it a dozen times in the background, I can quote much of it from memory. Gekko's crime wasn't in wanting more, or that he didn't "make" anything himself. Actually, he did "create something," namely increasing the wealth of his clients, liquidating failed companies like Teldar which weren't rescuable, and providing jobs for his employees. He would have been a Randian hero had he not been a thief of information.
     
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  3. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Sigh, and if only central banks weren't doing the full opposite these days, yet when the Fed or others do cut the money supply after inflating the bubble, it's an overreaction that precipitates things like the Great Depression. Anyway, this is probably getting really OT for here. :)
     
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  4. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    You are way out of order on that one mate... pretending you understand where the process is in the cycle and pumping out propaganda that it is somewhere else is blatant and simply incorrect.

    It is the debt that they are renegotiating to make sure that the economy grows. If they have to hold back the payoff to people it is because the people who set up all the debt in the first place were completely irresponsible in their behaviour because they got greedy.

    It is not the central banks that caused the issue it is the middlemen who sold that money in an irresponsible manner... oh you need more money, its fine you already owe them 200m etc we can just get more for you whenever we like because of who we are.

    Middlemen=Investment Banks in this case and one in particular.
     
    #4 Loriel, May 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2015
  5. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    When you post such convoluted things, you lose sight of gold's simply use as a medium of exchange. If Crimson Cinctures had a defined, unwavering value vis-à-vis gold, then people would use those to store value and trade with others. Any money is hardly ever collected just for its own sake, but because it's a way to store value — and hardly anyone wants to save value if it's not going to be used later.

    You must unlearn what you've learned from whoever got the Marxist notions of "capital" in your head. Perhaps his single, succinct flaw was attempting to separate that production and consumption are linked. People will not produce for production's own sake or their own personal gratification, and if they have no incentives to produce more, then how can they consume more?

    An economics professor once explained that the dismal science observes, "Bill has a boat," then asks, "Why doesn't Bill have a bigger boat?" Why doesn't he produce more to get one, and why doesn't someone produce more in UO to get the latest EM event rare?

    Such a phrase implies that someone has "responsibility" toward others which the latter didn't earn. If you want what someone has, then come to peaceful terms to acquire it in trade.

    Who has expressed any desire that nobody else would acquire wealth? For all your citing of Gordon Gekko, it's you who makes things into a zero-sum game.

    You're also making the logical fallacy of equating correlation with causation. The game's old, for one, and we should be surprised it's still around. People want regular new content and flashy graphics, which is to the loss of those who don't realize its complexity and vibrancy of player-driven economies, but they can't be forced into liking a game.
     
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  6. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    No, it's you who doesn't understand the true nature of the economy. It's you who's "pretending [to] understand" what's going on, spewing nonsensical babble like "where the process is in the cycle" and accusing me of "propaganda." If anything, it's you who's swallowed the propaganda of developed economies' governments that all this "stimulus" is necessary, when it's only to cover that the governments can't borrow enough from concrete sources.

    You want to call someone "blatant and simply incorrect," when you provide nothing at all but generic phrases that say nothing. You really took a page from Marx there.

    You don't have to keep proving you have no idea what's happening. There was no "debt" being renegotiated, and I should know, since for a long time I was part of oversight for the silly TARP and PPIP. I criticized them from the beginning as having power to do nothing, and they didn't. On the fully private side, however, the same company was genuinely determining the true value of these "distressed securities," some of which were worth nothing, some of which were great investments.

    Complete and utter nonsense. What's actually happening is that we're finally seeing the results of a century of worldwide central banking. After a decade of too-easy credit, and tax receipts dwindling, governments from the EU to the U.S. to Japan can't tax or borrow enough, so they're resorting to the printing of money. You and countless millions have swallowed the lie that monetary policy can get us out of this, when monetary policy got us into the mess in the first place. This isn't just Bowie-esque putting out fires with gasoline. This is the arsonist declaring only he can put the fires using the same supply of accelerant.

    You wrote: "sold that money" — what "money"? Are you referring to the securities that you heard about once? Those aren't money. If you're talking about loans, they were made so easily by banks for two reasons: government pressure (the stick), and central banks making it cheap for a lender to borrow that money and lend it back out (the carrot).
     
  7. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    If "its [sic] pretty clear," your solutions are not what are required. You talk about things like "fairness" which would demolish the last thing UO has going for it. The problem has always been with the money supply, from the first months of the game when we'd macro tailoring for hours on end — unintentionally boosting the availability of money and thus prices of things bought from players. We did, though, need to buy regs and ingots from NPCs.

    None of which you clearly know anything real about.

    Do you have any idea how much the BoE is monetizing gilts, because your government (like anyone else) can't borrow enough to cover its fiscal deficit? Your nation's national debt increases by over £100 billion every year, for a country of only ~60 million people.

    Or so they want you to believe. Do you even realize that UK GDP isn't even close to the 2007 peak, growth tapered off after 2011, and the pound has lost value vis-à-vis the USD? The third isn't because the dollar isn't itself gaining value, because inflation means it's lost value relative to what a dollar could once buy, but it's because most other currencies are losing value faster. The numbers don't lie.

    Black market economies emerge when people are willing to pay for goods and services that the government hinders them from having peacefully, e.g. Venezuela, especially governments using Marxist terms like "social responsibility."

    In other words, you want to delude yourself about me, and others whom you do not know at all.[/QUOTE]
     
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  8. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    We all know big business has a massive influence over government policy because of the leverage they have over providing governments with corporation tax.

    When you have those same big businesses routing and rerouting their funding through various investment firms it ends up being those same firms that begin to wield the power in the negotiations.

    That is what I meant by those firms giving themselves licence to lend those same corporations however much they wanted at whatever rate they wanted simply by being "who" they are.

    I don't know if you remember this but there was huge scandal at the time because of a well known investment firm doing exactly that, its not conjecture it actually happened mate.
     
  9. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    No one ever said that big businesses didn't influence anything in government, or would you care to show me where anyone . It should be emphasized, however that such cronyism and corruption is not anything about free markets or capitalism.

    But companies are far more often sinned against rather than sinning. When they're taxed by any amount, they raise prices such that the final consumer is the one who bears the tax.

    Yet there's no evidence whatsoever that they wield any political power except to beg for lesser burdens, not when we consider all the onerous regulations and penalties being placed on the largest firms. Then you have MF Global, whose politically connected executives escaped criminal prosecution. You're pointing fingers in entirely the wrong direction.

    Bear Stearns wasn't bailed out, but JPM was given a sweetheart loan to acquire what was left. Lehman Brothers was allowed to go through bankruptcy and liquidation, with no bailout. What did that mean? It meant Jamie Dimon, as then-president of the NY Fed's Board of Directors, swung a sweetheart deal for JPM to get a loan for buying up Bear. **** Fuld, on the other hand, must have ticked someone off.

    There were several firms involved. Whichever you were thinking about, I could name others.
     
  10. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Now you're speaking very generically, but you still don't understand what "inflation" is. It is the loss of value in money, though most everything else retains its subjective value. Things will simply cost more.

    What a load of malarkey. Inflation in any economy, real or virtual, punishes people because any savings will lose value. The person who puts 200 million away in the hope of future consumption will lose more purchasing power the longer he waits, which is what drives people into the rat race of trading.

    What you erroneously perceive as "other things become more valuable" is that those "other things" become more expensive in absolute monetary amounts. Just because a half gallon of orange juice costs more does not make it more valuable to anone.

    Rhetorical nonsense. Do you have a point?

    So if three individuals held every last mite or wealth, then revolution would not be justifiable? You need to work on your phrasing and consider the ramifications of the words you choose.

    You deny it, but what you're advocating is a handout, in that people can't earn as much as they otherwise could. Thus the wealth they'd have earned is transferred to someone who didn't have to acquire and spend as much money for the item.

    This is the one of the few (perhaps only two) things you've said that is true, except you want to reduce incentive for people to earn more by making others give them more.

    "Contributing" in what manner? UO is still based on buying and selling, except with the problem of duping that continually skews prices upward. There are gold giveaways, but if you pay attention, they're funded behind the scenes by the gold sellers you claim to despise.
     
  11. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It's funny how often I get this from people who have no rebuttal to the simple economics I lay forth.
     
  12. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Completely ridiculous. It is money that drives people, not the acquisition itself, but what it means for consumption. Medieval knights fought because of the riches (sometimes slaves) they could bring back, with glory taking a distant second. Go and tell us that David Beckham, Tom Brady or Felix Hernandez are simply playing for the fun or "rush" of their respective sports.

    Someone once tried arguing with me, 10 years ago, that Tiger Woods would still play as much golf if he were limited to $1 million a year, which this person argued was "enough money." No, Woods would have largely quit (someone of his caliber couldn't keep his tour card with playing so few tournaments) and perhaps turned to full-time course design. Then there would be far fewer fans to pay for tickets to see him live, and also to watch him on TV (e.g. ratings to attract commercial sponsors).

    You seem to have the false assumption that money and its acquisition are evil things, which they aren't. It's money's use and how it's acquired that can be evil. There have been and still are a couple of places that have tried it your Marxist way, eliminating money and forcing equality on everybody but the ruling class. Aren't they just lovely places to live, these workers' paradises?
     
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  13. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    You have obviously never played sport in your life and you either don't understand intrinsic motivation or you are pretending not to for the sake of your arguments.

    For someone so vehement in your protests and by the sounds of your "expertise" into this subject it seems as if you have a personal stake in this argument.

    You have named practically all the other investment banks apart from the one where the fault lay to begin with so I assume you must work for that firm in particular or have done in the past.

    In which case you are either Merlin or you know Merlin in real life and what is funny is you actually quoted your own post to support your argument if you are indeed he.

    You probably only started responding when you realised you had lost the game as Merlin when I called you out and now your are just expending more and more energy fighting a battle you lost two weeks ago.

    The game is up mate say what you will to me but the truth is out there pal and its clear to see.
     
  14. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    So keep digging yourself into that hole mate... every word you speak takes everyone one step closer to the truth about you and what you have done and are doing....

    Gold giveaways funded by the gold sellers... how would you know about that ?
     
  15. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Pretty sure you were the teachers pet in school as well mate... top marx because you said what the teacher wanted to hear and not because you believed it yourself, only because it got you top marks for the sake of top marks. (Money for money's sake and not because of what it represents).

    What top marks actually means mate is when the answers you give provide a solution above and beyond that what the teacher in just your school asks for.

    Well done you got top marks at that one school but how does that compare in a world of schools and who really sets the standards for the top ?

    How you earn your marks is more important than how many marks you got because if you got them by cheating no one but the cheats will deal with you and half the time they will just cheat you right back and not care about how that affects you.
     
  16. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Your replies really should have been moved to the OT thread, but since I'm not as busy prepping things for E3, I see you've made your usual nonsensical replies.

    You can't even do ad hominem properly. Your argument is invalid.

    It's the same way people know that the Earth circles the sun. It's simply fact.

    You apparently never took a class in the sciences, where there is simple fact to learn, and not a student's opinion that "perhaps the law of inertia has exceptions because my literature teacher says life is about being flexible." Let me guess, that's what you were like?

    You're spewing irrelevancies now. Do you have any rebuttal to what I've posted?

    Actually, it's one of the premiere Austrian economics programs in the world, so your argument is even more invalid.

    Now you're spewing irrelevancies again, as well as pure ad hominem by accusing me of "cheating."
     
  17. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I in fact have played plenty of sports, but not well enough to bother doing it professionally, even if my heart were in things like football (American style).

    The fact of the matter is that people like Beckham and Brady do what they do because of the money. They don't love their respective sports that much when they need to make income somehow. Do you honestly think the many thousands of American college sports players are in it because they love to play? Or is it because they hope to get drafted into a pro team and make millions of dollars?

    More ad hominem.

    Then if you're so smart, go ahead and name it. Do you even dare?

    What utter nonsense. I'm not Merlin, I have often disagreed with him, but he and I happen to agree on something here. That's called normal people. You, on the other hand, seem to think people should always march in lockstep thought.

    Oh get off it. You clearly haven't read UHall for very long to think Merlin and I are anything close to the same person.

    @Merlin, can you believe this person's self-delusions? It's perplexing, to say the least. But oh, you'd better not reply here, then she'll really think we're the same.
     
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  18. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    What took you so long to reply, it has been 3 weeks since all this happened and now it's all alright because you use a few latin phrases :)

    Apparently I am a she now too ?

    My main aim is unity not disparity and it seems your disparate attitudes have managed to rub off on everyone that plays this game, to the detriment of the game and to the detriment of yourself because somehow they have been encouraging your self justification.

    Congratulations you are an operator but a really bad one as far as I can see, you managed to leech off something good until it rotted and now what is your reward ?

    It doesn't matter how many alternate identities you have cultivated, friends that share your core principles but occasionally disagree, what matters is that you are what is inherently wrong with society today.

    You are just a function that turned bad trying to be more efficient and ended up spreading a virus that infected almost everybody.

    I'm glad I found you, it wasn't too difficult, how much has this enterprise cost you and how little has it cost me ?

    For those people that aren't aware of what this is about, that is probably for the best, if you don't understand just be safe in the knowledge that you are better off not trying to and that other people are taking care of it.
     
  19. james64468

    james64468 Journeyman
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    @Loriel As far as I know Merlin and The Zog historian are not the same person. The Zog historian does know his history. I used to read what they talked about when I was mostly interested in Toontown STR. Some would assume by the name if your he or she. It easy to do on the internet.
     
  20. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    I was in Orlando and Las Vegas the past two weeks for two separate stag parties. Zog Historian and I are not the same person. As a matter of fact, him and I have had our own share of differences and debates, as he has pointed out. I have no ill-will toward him and respect his thoughtful opinions, even if they differ from my own.


    See above. He and I are different people.

    And you didn't "win" any debate two weeks ago. It's laughable you would even imply that you did. You went so far off topic with your ridiculous semantics that the post got locked. You even went as far to say you reported me for "corruption" because I argued in favor of support to big investment banks and UO gold sellers. That's padded room talk.

    Similar to the previous thread, clearly unable to respond about economics, you turn the discussion to absurd personal details and go off topic once again.
     
    #20 Merlin, Jun 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
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  21. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It's because I was very busy prepping things for E3, i.e. a real job, which is a concept you'd know nothing about. And when I do check here briefly, I'm not receiving notifications of your replies.

    Aren't you? Or does it matter at all? I could call you "it" and it wouldn't change the silliness and erroneousness of your replies.

    What a continued load of codswallop from you. You can't refute a single thing I post, so you have to resort to continued ad hominem. How would you know a single thing about me or what I play in the game?

    It's in fact you who creates "disparity" and disharmony on these forums. When people were attempting to have a civilized discussion, you came in to sow the seeds of discord.

    Once again, you're speaking only about yourself.

    Could you possibly make any less sense here? Is that a natural skill you have, or is it the one thing you trained to do well?

    I have one identity on these forums. One. Since you're the one obsessed with sock puppetry, it can only make the rest of us wonder how how many you have.

    And as I pointed out using my alternate identity Merlin, he and I aren't even friends. That doesn't prevent people from being respectful in discussions, particularly when disagreeing — such is a concept foreign to you, of course.

    Once again, you're speaking only of yourself.

    See above. You're only describing yourself.

    "Found" me? Actually, I found you, because I was the first to make replies.

    And since I've been tested at 119 wpm even when inebriated, and I machine-gun my replies right back at you without having to put any thought into them, the cost to you is far greater. Do you even realize how silly you appear to everyone else on the forums?

    In other words, you can't challenge a single thing you've said. You're spewing only vagueness and generalities because you have nothing.
     
    #21 The Zog historian, Jun 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  22. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It's beyond ridiculous that "it" continues to stick "its" head in the sand and ignore what you and I post. I've proven "it" completely wrong on the motivation of professional sports players. When "it" attempted to appear knowledgeable, "it" claimed I didn't know the "investment bank" at the core of things. So I challenged "it" to name the institution.

    And we're still hearing crickets.
     
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  23. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    Mate I was bored of this conversation and you weeks and weeks ago, now you are just being insulting and irrelevant. It's like when you are having a stand up argument with someone... you lose then three weeks later you think of a come back... it is gone mate and you cannot get it back.
     
  24. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    This thread has descended to personal sniping and is hereby closed.
     
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