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Roleplaying Towns - Past/Present/Future?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Pad_OLion, Aug 7, 2001.

  1. Pad_OLion

    Pad_OLion Guest

    The Past

    In the beginning, long before the lands were torn apart and Trammel emerged you could find player run towns on every shard. Back then those little towns were the center of RP on each and every shard, a place to meet, to roleplay and to find thrilling quests and events for newbies and veterans alike, for hard-core roleplayers and those trying to roleplay and even for PvPers. Some of those towns got so famous, that they were blessed by OSI over and over again. OSI was so proud of them, they advertised, promoted and showed them off everywhere. If you wanted to take part in a quest, these were the places to go. Of course back then, those towns too had problems with PKs, but since the comunities were that strong, that never was a serious problem. Also the lands were full of adventurers to rob and murder, so the PKs had lots of victims everywhere. Griefers were rare in those days as people had enough to do and since I think griefing is a side-effect of people being extremely bored it never really applied in those days or was met with determination to get rid of the offenders quickly.

    Then Trammel came ....

    The Present

    When Trammel was implemented a lot of towns tried to move to Trammel, although almost all of them didn't survive that move. The landrush and the new housing rules simply made it impossible for a successful transition of a player run town, especially the large ones didn't manage. So the comunities were torn apart. Some stayed behind and some moved on to build new towns. Those staying behind soon realized, that with all their clientel moving to Trammel their towns were robbed of the most important ingredient ... people. Still some of those towns managed to survive to this day, but those are very very few.

    Right now, when you take a tour through those famous towns of the past you'll still find marvelous places with ponds, hedges, fountains and statues, but what you won't find there is people ... they are empty ... they are dead. One of the reasons why they died is, that Felucca now has a limited amount of victims for PKs, thus making the towns, which of course are static and can not move, extremely prone to attacks and that combined with the split and thus the weakening of the communities most towns simply got PK'd. Beside that a new "playstyle" had developed ... griefing. I think griefing is the result of extremely bored people, not knowing what to do in the game anymore, trying to let out their frustration (caused by the game itself or RL) on other people ... and where is that easier to accomplish than in player run towns. Not PKs, I think, but griefers are the main problem we face today. A true PK is a lot easier to handle than a griefer. Most PKs are red and thus player justice can work with those, but the typical griefer is too much of a coward to go red, and thus killing them simply doesn't solve the problem as they will be back within minutes, laughing at those who got murder counts and continue their "work". There are just too many loopholes in the game mechanics which allow such players to harm such a vulnerable construct as a player run town. Right now 80% of UO's population lives in Trammel. The remaining 20% are PvPers and those RPers who stayed behind after the land split and a very small amount of griefers. For those reasons mentioned above the remaining towns find it very hard to deal with their day to day business. Because there are so few, those remaining towns have a huge number of visitors which are easy targets for the rest of the shard.

    The recent changes to the ToC and RoC are a step in the right direction I think, but I think too, that the GM staff simply will not be able to enforce those rules. It already has and surely will lead to extremely dangerous situations for the GMs. Also I fear, that the resolving of a given situation will depend on the GM far more than on the rules itself, thus the old cursed term of "favouritism" springs to my mind again. I think these issues will have to be adressed by the game mechanics or it will get just too much work enforcing them.

    The new found towns on Trammel on the other hand, are but a shadow of those early UO towns, lacking the people and the feeling of a comunity. In a way those new towns find it much harder to get people interested in them, because there is no common threat forging them together anymore. Trammel simply has completely different priorities nowadays. What fused together the old towns was the fact, that they lived in an hostile environment and sticking together was the only way to survive.

    The Future

    The future ... good question. Either a way is found to penalize griefers and make them accountable for their actions within the game mechanics, or those remaining towns need to be protected accordingly. One way could be the implementation of guard zones, which surely would bring back life to most ancient UO towns as well. The guard zone could work almost like the city town protection, with the exceptions, that only criminal actions within the town limits can trigger the guards, thus reds would be allowed to come and go as long as they abide to the laws and do not perform any criminal action.

    Basically I think it's up to OSI to judge the value of those towns. We can only offer our service for the good of the whole comunity, but I think it is worth the effort.

    Regards
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.custodesfati.net>Custodes Fati</a>
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  2. Pad_OLion

    Pad_OLion Guest

    Before this thread becomes a PK discussion as well, let me try to explain my point of view on the differences between a PK and a Griefer.

    I think the difference is the intention one has coming to a certain place. If one comes with the intention to simply kill and loot everything in that certain area, then this is PKing pure and simple.

    If one repeatedly comes with the sole intention to cause distress, provoke or annoy the people in a certain area, either by words or action, then I consider this griefing.

    Examples:

    PKing:
    You gate into a place with your group, swiftly kill everything, that moves, collect the loot and gate out.

    Griefing:
    You wait at the stablemaster till someone gets off his horse to stable it, then you kill the horse yelling "tram n00b!", then you run off like mad, cause there could be someone trying to kill you since you're criminal now ... so you run into your house two screens away with the pursuers on your heels. When the pursuers try to enter your house you ban them while yelling once again "TRAMMEL N00Bz!" (this time in capital letters, just in case they didn't get it). Now start casting from within your house and get a few friends to help you. When they leave just start over and over and over ....

    Regards
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

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  3. Ghoster

    Ghoster Guest

    Pad,
    Unfortunately, i do not have the time at the moment to discuss this like I would like to. however, i will reply a bit later in the day(after work). Also i read your thoughts about this issue when Canyon's post hit stratics. I have another thread you should check.
    You mentioned my biggest fear- OSI handing out bans for pking. Scary situation if you ask me and it just begs for "reverse greifing". Ill post the link in a sec and definately post my thoughts and dieas on this today. Definately an issue that needs discussion.

    <font color=green>Killer 80%
    Explorer 53%
    Socializer 46%
    Achiever 20% </font color=green>
    Shao Lin Sarcasm- follow the true path to enlightenment
    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/crazy.gifThats right Uhallers!/php-bin/shared/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  4. Ghoster

    Ghoster Guest

    possible concerns about OSI's decision


    I think I came off a lil strong at first as I misunderstood the context of the decision, but I think there are some good points in this thread, especially towards the end.

    One more thing, even if a bit OT: you mentioned trammel player towns being a shadow of former towns................well any town made since the removale of seers (and the loss of them effects well established towns too) is only going to be a shadow of "what could be" anyway.



    <font color=green>Killer 80%
    Explorer 53%
    Socializer 46%
    Achiever 20% </font color=green>
    Shao Lin Sarcasm- follow the true path to enlightenment
    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/crazy.gifThats right Uhallers!/php-bin/shared/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Good Post !!!


    i must agree.



    [​IMG]
     
  6. ...particularly the parts concerning the Past and the Present.

    However, there is one point that many overlook...that in and of itself hobbled player-run establishments severely. That was the introduction of the anti-macro code. Since it was timed so closely with Trammel's birth, its damaging effects are often mistakenly attributed to the land split.

    Use the YMCA as a point in case: Prior to the anti-macro code, our tower roof was a hugely popular gathering place. New players and veterans alike met to spar, learn new moves, practice their magery and gain skills. A goodly number of those participants would turn grey in the process...but it was alright, as we were there to deal with any attackers whom might show up to prey upon them. A hefty percentage of Sonoma players grandmastered at least one skill or another on that roof, over the years...

    Enter the anti-macro code, and BOOM! NO combat skill gains indoors, period. The former roof crowd now moves downstairs onto the lawn, resumes their activities, turn grey...and become instant noto-bait for every loser around. I'd say we tried to keep sparring there for about...oh...three more weeks or so, before we finally just had to give it up. And as it ceased being the best and most sociable place to train...power-hour was introduced. Now there was really no incentive whatsoever to actually participate with other players....gods forbid that someone might want to speak with you whilst in Power Hour. *shudders*

    We were asked a couple of times if we would like the YMCA to be in a "guard" zone. We always turned down the notion because:
    A) We like reds, and
    B) Many patrons are often grey, due to training and/or raising skills.
    I think that if you further eliminated (by instituting guards) what few paltry remnants of training activities have managed to remain, you would end up gutting what little spirit remains, as well. In our case, we want to remain a coummunity center...an ACTIVE one. That tends to involve more than simply sitting about--it has to!

    I have long thought that one, simple measure would do WONDERS to restore life to player centers. If there is some way to code it...why not simply allow for skill-gain inside large, public structures? The chances of someone macroing away in a public setting are slim-to-none now. I have never understood why community centers were hit with those restrictions, and i would like to see them rescinded now. Thay are NOT neccesary, and are needlessly stifling to players interacting with a social group.

    By the way, a friend of mine came up with a definition of "griefer" last year...A griefer is a player whose sole enjoyment of the game is derived from deliberately inducing misery in others. (and no, PKing someone is not inducing misery :p)

    ~Dor

    [​IMG]

    <font color=blue>The Lone Ranger</font color=blue>
    <font color=purple>Guildmaster,</font color=purple><font color=red>Sonoma War Games</font color=red>
     
  7. EoN

    EoN Guest

    I would love to see life in Tar Valon or any other city. Those cities were made through alot of hard work and with one swoop they were killed. The protection zones would be nice and would definetly help.

    <center>[​IMG]
    Achiever 73%, Killer 60%, Socializer 33%, Explorer 33%

    ...and with each post of yours I read, killer goes up another 10%...
     
  8. Pad_OLion

    Pad_OLion Guest

    You're right when you include the "power-hour" to the things which had a drastic impact on player run comunities. We too had to move our training sessions outdoors and all too quickly we felt the results. Those once enjoying sparring sessions soon became the target of every wannabe noto-pk around.

    Regarding guard zones ... I long thought about this drastic change as well with the same fears as you expressed, therefore I came to the conclusion, that this guard zone would have to be different. I'd implement a guard zone where only criminal actions would trigger the guards (parhaps only if someone actively yells for guards) thus reds would not be excluded.

    Honestly, I do not see any other way to restore the old towns and help the last existing ones. From what I've witnessed last week, I have my doubts, that the GM staff will be able to enforce the new harassment policy.

    Regards
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

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  9. Ghoster

    Ghoster Guest

    Nice post Dor, and some interesting thoughts that i had never really considered about the death of player run towns. Alas the age of kiddies is upon UO and I for one think the game is about the individual so much now that it is hard to really create a community. But ya gotta keep trying! Eon we really need to get a group together to restore Tar Valon. i have saw a few posts about doing so in the past and if your serious I suggest you post it on the GL forum. You may be surprised at how many old vets still occassionally lurk there. Once upon a time I met many players that remember the hay day of Tar Valon and the Sandlewood- they are still about im sure.

    <font color=green>Killer 80%
    Explorer 53%
    Socializer 46%
    Achiever 20% </font color=green>
    Shao Lin Sarcasm- follow the true path to enlightenment
    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/crazy.gifThats right Uhallers!/php-bin/shared/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  10. Frenna

    Frenna Guest

    Aye...
    I only discovered the player-run towns after Trammel *I was scared to venture far from a town* I often go to a few and alas there is narry a soul about! *sighs* I love hanging out at the towns versus a crowded bank to chat with folks about things. Besides I want to become a better role player.

    I want my UO.
    Frenna (Coffee queen) /php-bin/shared/images/icons/queen.gif
    Pass me a pint /php-bin/shared/images/icons/pint.gif

    Sonoma
     
  11. Rotis

    Rotis Guest

    Well... I think IGMs should do more for player-run towns so they don't vanish...

    Oh wait.. IGMs = Regular GMs now, right?

    I'll write a big reply later but right now I'm in a hurry...

    ---
    [​IMG]

    He's still cute. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

    I like waffles.
     
  12. Thyxorph

    Thyxorph Guest

    I must agree too. With my guild, we try to build a roleplay town (Atl) in Trammel, because the guild has always been in Trammel, and of course the biggest difficulty is the price of houses we have to buy one by one.
    I haven't visited many feluccan player towns, but at least a few, and of course i met those griefers more than i would have wished to. I strongly agree the idea of putting guards. They could be managed like faction guards, paid by the city (by the mayor). They would protect the city against criminal actions, and eventually against members of ennemy guilds.
     
  13. Shion

    Shion Guest

    Well, its been nearly two years since this was posted. How has Roleplaying towns changed?
     
  14. Thunderclap

    Thunderclap Guest

    To answer that question, I will step forth. Not much. With the removal of the majority of the uniqueness that was UO (IGM, seers, counselers, companions), the culture is now stagnant. Felucca is now a shell of itself. As for the guard zones, a good idea that would have worked. But nobody took it, so the towns died. BUt the devs want to save the uniqueness. Sadly, there is no one to play there. I personally love Haven, why? But you can help the new players, fight easy monsters when you are lazy and still banksit if you want.
    But I miss the spirit of Felucca. I miss the challenge of running from reds, of looting others who were stupid enough to get killed in town. But I don't blame OSI. They gave the customers a choice. 80% wanted to be left alone. So Trammel was born. Those who hated it stayed behind. 99% are gone now. Whose left: griefers, pvpers and reds with a few lone blues who either are running towns or own property in Fel.
    Also, if you champ spawn or mine and are brave, you go there for the double output. But the challenge is gone. The weak and foolish are crushed on arrival at a moongate, so they don't come back, and the strong travel in groups so this doesn't apply.
    Felucca has turned into Diablo with bits of everquest in there. And Trammel now lacks the zip of the past. But the solution isn't in more lands but reviving the old ones. A choice must be made, but sadly I know not what it is, but what it isn't.
     
  15. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    *Bump* Sorry I' trying to copy this before it ends up in nowhere land. Figured once it hits last page it goes bye bye.
     
  16. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    As someone who actually played before Trammel, I'd like to (for about the ten-thousandth time or so) state that the romantic view of the pre-Trammel days as an RP paradise with thriving communities was a myth at best; a distortion at worst.

    There were many player towns on LS pre-Trammel. I am only familiar with 5, however: Rivendell; Tel'Ruid; City of Dragons; an un-named PK city; Twilight Township.

    I have no experience with Tel'Ruid before the move to Trammel. I didn't even know it was there, didn't know about it at all until they came to Trammel.

    # of people I saw at Rivendell pre-Trammel: One. A PK. Post-Trammel I only EVER saw people there for actual events.

    # of people I saw at City of Dragons pre-Trammel: Zero. Post-Trammel: Two. Our interactions consisted of "Nice town." "Thank you."

    # of people I saw at the un-named PK city (I guess it had a name I just don't recall it), pre-Trammel: About 10. I don't know about post-Trammel, I never found it again.

    # of people I saw pre-Trammel at Twilight Township: Zero. Since Trammel, also zero. I know of instances where there were some people there but I didn't personally witness it.

    The pattern is clear: Only active player town I saw pre-Tram consisted entirely of PKs.

    Post-Trammel, however, I can think of at least 3 active player towns. Ilithien; Tel'Ruid (which was a direct import from Felucca to Trammel, even in the same spot); and Destiny. All 3 regularly had people until the eventual decline in RP.

    And I know there were more places than that I just can't think of them.

    The notion that Trammel killed player towns is not supportable.

    The notion that the lack of official support killed player towns might be supportable, but none of the active player towns I was familiar with actually HAD such supports, unless you count Seers announcing events there and even then I'm only familiar with that occurring in Tel'Ruid and not the other two. So if nothing else it's not like you NEEDED official supports to have a successful town.

    -Galen's player
     
  17. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I don't know... I've been living in a Player run town for a long while now... before I lived in Yew where we "had" a town government for many years and an active guard... since dead... That was Trammel....

    RP wise there are many things that have lead to the destruction and death of not only player run towns but RP in general... Other games which have loads of graphics and movements... Lack of support from EA... The movement away from Crafting to hunting/gathering and dare I say it .... grinding spawns... the rise in the "gimmie, gimmie, gimmies"... Everyone wants stuff now... it's all about items and less about the game...

    Monster bashing..... has become WAY too easy.... therefore no one needs to be in a guild or belong to a group to do things.... heck everyone solo's everything now... shame but true...

    I still live in a player run town... it's terribly spread out because of lack of land and location but it does exist still... thankfully.... and in Tram... as it has for a great many years...

    Truth is at least in my opinion that the focus has turned from community to individuality.... and greed has replaced virtue...

    No one seems to want to do anything anymore if they don't feel they are "rewarded"....

    I've tried holding events of late and if you don't constantly shell out goodies to folk they get downright nasty and tell you what a farce you put on and ask when they "get stuff"....

    I recall when you went to a "fair" or other event put on by other players you were happy to have something fun to do.... a bit of friendly competition and games... it was fun... you didn't "expect" prizes...

    Now it would seem if you don't give out super expensive gifts and million GP checks no one wants to bother showing up.... or they complain the whole time about what a crap event it is...

    That to me is FAR more destructive to the RP community and communities in General than Fel/Tram split.
     
  18. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I think the OP's assessment is fairly accurate.

    I think as long as there are rules, there will be griefers. The harder you squeeze, the more they wriggle.
     
  19. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Are there any player towns in fel on Great Lakes??

    I would like to "introduce" myself...;)
     
  20. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    As far as I know NO..... the URKS had a fort but that's been largely abandoned.... there is still a few blessed places in Fel on GL's that were once active but again most of them have been "griefed" out of existence. When Pratt tried to re-open Red Devils that was met with a vast amount of grief by BC and others though several did band together to attempt to have fun there...

    Unfortunately I can say that a vast majority of the time on Great Lakes anything that has been attempted in Fel for events has been met with such grief that it's quickly abandoned.

    Which I find rather humorous since it is mostly those in Fel who complain regularly about wanting events to be held there... Guess you can't burn your bridges at both ends...

    I rather doubt any towns would post themselves here anyway as they would invite more grief than anything...

    I do recall that BC had a whole island.... don't know if that still exists but there was that... though I'd hardly call it a town.
     
  21. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    EA needs to put more effort into helping out RP towns. I would love to see something like Shadowbane had where you could use a moongate to go directly to a player run town.

    And I would like to see more design options for building up towns like this instead of just saying 'these ten houses are our town'. Players put a lot of work into their towns but it doesn't seem as if the devs really consider them much.
     
  22. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Was my hope that the new EM's would be able to do something to support the player run town.... but then they would be guilty of "favoritsm... but in my opinion if you only play this game to better yourself and you don't work to better the whole community then you deserve only what you bring...

    Those who put effort into community and who hold events and such for the whole community ought to be rewarded in my opinion.... perhaps that would help bring back communities...

    however then you get the exploiters and cheats who "claim" to do stuff only for their own gain...

    and then you'll have the whiners complaining that they didn't get their's and boo hoo why does this guy get a road and I don't.....

    Honestly I'd like to see player run towns given roads... and a Moongate... But those would be something that a guild or alliance would have to "work" to get by earning some sort of points .... but I think it would be worth the work.... And how would you decide who got what????

    Trouble is it's far too complicated and I am sure it would end up making more enemies than friends.... And you'd have too many people trying to abuse the system.... that seems to be the norm anymore... sadly.
     
  23. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    I agree. Too often we have seen people just being selfish and trying to take advantage of the system. The truth comes out sooner or later but until then, it usually ends up with bad feelings all around.

    I know its completely unrealistic, but when they announce the return of the EM's I was pushing for them to make an RP EM, a PVP EM and a PVM EM. Those EM's could work together but each would mainly focus on their specific aspects. Not doing anything that gave a real 'advantage' to anyone but more along the lines of just making things more fun for those involved.

    Sadly, too many people are the 'gimme gimme' types and too few are the 'what can we do to help us all?' types.
     
  24. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    I agree with a post i read long ago...a good portion of the fault for the death of the player towns lies solely with EA. When Trammel was opened, IT should have been the pvp zone, the dead tree zone, the dangerland...
    Because when those who had built up player towns tried to move them, the spots and land werent available to recreate em, for the most part, in Trammel.
     
  25. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well one of the reasons old town appeared was for mutual protection from Pk's. That indeed was a big part of the glue of the community. The towns would establish guards to protect players from pks, and all the ones I visited, this worked.

    When tram came, there was no need for people to live together for that reason. There was no danger. And of course with the haven of tram the face of fel was indirectly changed, thus neither side could survive with the option of safty available.

    Then the trend of people just needing to be together less and less thanks to game design, the only reason for people to live out in the wild in a town is novelty, which at current prices on house packed shards is highly prohibitive.

    Thats my explanation, and its my contention that theres no liklihood that player towns will ever be anything like the once were. The game is just too differnet now.
     
  26. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Player towns existed on Siege with fair activity until I'd say at least 2006. It was only with the decline of both the population and the decline of people who just like to hang out in player run towns that eventually brought their decline.

    They still exist, and some people still visit, but by all means they are a former shell of what they were from 1999-2004.

    So I believe that serves as some proof of the notion that Trammel killed player run towns.