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Rules not in the TOS should give warnings first, not suspensions

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Unfortunatly a player who has recently returned to the game got suspended for giving out the address of one of those popular vendor searching websites. He did not know they were illegal and a (griefing) player paged on him.

    I took a close look at the TOS and ROC, there is no rule against such a website. The only rule is you may not advertise websites. Furthemore the location that should have links to all rules (http://support.uo.com/service.html) only links to the Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service. It is completely unreasonable to expect someone to know these magic rules if they are not listed in the place to find them.

    If a rule is not written down then a verbal warning should be done first. There were 2 other people replying in the discussion topic about this that didn't know that these sites are not supposed to be mentioned. That is 2 more people who could end up with account suspensions or terminations that could easily be avoided by listing rules like this and adding a permanent filter. How many players could have avoided suspensions/terminations if they simply filtered the word ****? It would probably be thousands. The same could be done to website addresses.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    .......account suspensions or terminations that could easily be avoided by listing rules like this and adding a permanent filter.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree. On the job, I think up things like this all the time proactively. It's not hard to add a (wildcard).com text filter.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    And yet they do nothing about the countless books left scattered on the ground advertising various websites.
     
  4. JoyousGard

    JoyousGard Guest

    I feel that some rules are written to be ambiguous, so that way rules can be applied differently for different people and different cases. Please write up the exact text with a fake website listed (Perhaps... www.fake website.com) and then we can vote whether or not we would suspend them.

    Maybe if we are lucky a lawyer member of UO Stratics can write an opinion on the exact text and how the specific rules should be applied or interpreted.

    What is a "griefer" UO Stratics poster? I didn't see that in the rules. (I didn't read the rules, and won't, but I am gambling that there is nothing on "griefer" posters.)

    EDIT: "there" in last sentence, still not sure though.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    And yet they do nothing about the countless books left scattered on the ground advertising various websites.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I pick them up and throw them in the trashcan.
     
  6. http://legal.ea.com/legal/legal.jsp?language=en
    By registering, you agree that EA may process your data in accordance with the following Privacy Policy and that you will <font color=red>abide</font color=red> by Terms &amp; Conditions below.

    yadda yadda (probably scrolled over ... huh?)

    You will<font color=red> violate</font color=red> the Terms of Service if you (or others using your Account) do any of the following:

    bullet
    bullet
    bullet

    Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including <font color=red>without limitation</font color=red> advertising, promotional materials, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or make any commercial use of our Service.

    bullet
    Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications.

    [​IMG] (my bolding and colors as usual)

    "First chance" WAS already used up
    ignorance is no excuse.

    STILL
    (Even for returning players)
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Unfortunatly a player who has recently returned to the game got suspended for giving out the address of one of those popular vendor searching websites.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    You know ... this has yellow flags flying all over it. What in the world is a person just returning to the game doing going to unnameable sites? One can only hope that whoever pointed the player there in the first place feels badly about it.

    By the way:

    11. You will not post the web site address (URL) to any sites which contain sexual material, content which could harm or disrupt another user’s personal network and computer, or content which violates the Electronic Arts Terms of Service.

    13. You may not use the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site for any activities other than those permitted within the game world.

    and

    23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service.

    (now, I'll grant you that I rarely if ever actually read the TOS, but it really all does fall under common sense)
     
  8. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>

    And yet they do nothing about the countless books left scattered on the ground advertising various websites.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah... this is really annoying
     
  9. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>

    I pick them up and throw them in the trashcan.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I pick them up and take them to the library
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Except that website has none of that or anything else you listed.
    <blockquote><hr>

    You know ... this has yellow flags flying all over it. What in the world is a person just returning to the game doing going to unnameable sites? One can only hope that whoever pointed the player there in the first place feels badly about it.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Since these websites are specifically not disallowed, they are freely posted on many UO forums. Besides in UO and on Stratics, people give out the addresses all the time. They have become mainstream and countless UO players know about them. If UO wants to do something, then they should try and start to ban the scripted characters that are searching all the vendors.
    <blockquote><hr>

    By the way:

    11. You will not post the web site address (URL) to any sites which contain sexual material, content which could harm or disrupt another user’s personal network and computer, or content which violates the Electronic Arts Terms of Service.

    13. You may not use the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site for any activities other than those permitted within the game world.

    and

    23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service.

    (now, I'll grant you that I rarely if ever actually read the TOS, but it really all does fall under common sense)


    [/ QUOTE ]
    These websites fall under none of that. Number 11 might look like it does, but guess what? These websites are not listed in the TOS, so you aren't breaking that rule. Number 23 is about distributing applications, this is a link to a website. Not the same thing. Rule 13 has nothing to do with this.

    Rule 23 could easily be updated to include websites, but then it becomes a difficult question as to which websites violates the rules. Stratics has many utilities on it which do not have "expressed written permission" for them. So then Stratics wouldn't be allowed to be mentioned. Also how is a player supposed to know who has written permission or not? I think the big point here is that the Rules of Conduct were written 10 years ago and hardly updated since. It needs to be looked at.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    If the website is automatically scanning vendors, it's a non-allowed client into the game data. Stratics utilities are not reading game data, they're just a calculator based on formulas provided or guessed. So unless the site you're talking about is just a message board of what people have seen, it can't possibly be allowed unless or until the devs decide it would be a useful feature to provide to the whole community.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    regardless not everyone knows how the data for those types of sites are collected most people do not realize that it requires an illegal app to collect such information at the rates these sites do and simply listing the list and or telling someone to check it should not be grounds for an action against your account ever.

    I realize advertising sites such as that is in the TOS and is covered the problem is that they warp that part of the rules to fit what they want. The rules was set in place to stop people from spamming advertisements for illegal objectives not to ban anyone who even remotely mentions said sites in game. This is classic abuse of power by manipulating the meaning of a defined rule or law to justify what is actually a wrongful sanctioning.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What about ingame books all over that advertise them? How the heck does one get them removed or handled?
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If it is a no-brainer then why are so many people unaware that they are illegal?
     
  15. <blockquote><hr>

    And yet they do nothing about the countless books left scattered on the ground advertising various websites.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    "The only rule is you may not advertise websites. "


    yah what about all the garbage LLTS drops around ? it's terriable litter.
    your friend should fight EA on this one, why should a small group be allowed to advertise BS when a single person can't talk about a common site to everyone ?
    what about advertising stratics in chatter in game ? tell someoen to go here to find something out and blam your banned ? ???
    kinda strange considering EA promotes stratic's ( read your manuals).

    so where is the line drawn on site advertising ?
     
  16. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    And yet they do nothing about the countless books left scattered on the ground advertising various websites.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I pick them up and throw them in the trashcan.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    i do also.
     
  17. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Unfortunatly a player who has recently returned to the game got suspended for giving out the address of one of those popular vendor searching websites. He did not know they were illegal and a (griefing) player paged on him.

    I took a close look at the TOS and ROC, there is no rule against such a website. The only rule is you may not advertise websites. Furthemore the location that should have links to all rules (http://support.uo.com/service.html) only links to the Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service. It is completely unreasonable to expect someone to know these magic rules if they are not listed in the place to find them.

    If a rule is not written down then a verbal warning should be done first. There were 2 other people replying in the discussion topic about this that didn't know that these sites are not supposed to be mentioned. That is 2 more people who could end up with account suspensions or terminations that could easily be avoided by listing rules like this and adding a permanent filter. How many players could have avoided suspensions/terminations if they simply filtered the word ****? It would probably be thousands. The same could be done to website addresses.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I think it's rather outrageous that a player gets suspended for merely mentioning a website.
    The thing that is even harsher, is that I've paged on many obvious scripters (people that keep trying to recall for 30 mins when you've blocked off their designated recall spot). 5 out of the 7 pages in the past few months I've spotted back at the scripting within 24 hours.

    If it is how you claim, then this is completely ridiculous.
     
  18. "23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. "


    what does this have to do with the topic ? notta
     
  19. <blockquote><hr>

    What about ingame books all over that advertise them? How the heck does one get them removed or handled?

    [/ QUOTE ]


    actually if you page a GM they can 'look into the book' and see who wrote it.
    last i knew i think they can even see who held it last also, but this part might be wrong.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The problem is in the paging system itself.

    The paging system turns the players into the police, and you can't trust some cops.

    IF ea would actively go to hot spots, banks, PvP areas and just watch or "police" the area I believe there would be less paging style griefing.

    It should not be our job the enforce the ROC, the responsibility should fall on the authority not the citizens.
     
  21. Experimental

    Experimental Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    yah what about all the garbage LLTS drops around ? it's terriable litter.
    your friend should fight EA on this one, why should a small group be allowed to advertise BS when a single person can't talk about a common site to everyone ?
    what about advertising stratics in chatter in game ? tell someoen to go here to find something out and blam your banned ? ???
    kinda strange considering EA promotes stratic's ( read your manuals).

    so where is the line drawn on site advertising ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Read the LLTS book and you may get a clue. I would rather have GM's doing more important things than deleting books on the ground when I am capable of throwing them away myself, but I would guess that the mere membership of LLTS is enough for a GM to decide to leave them alone, even though I'm also sure LLTS has nothing to do with that decision.
     
  22. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    RTLPFC -

    Id like to know how the person who paged got a GM to respond!!

    Anyway, this is lame. Should have talked to the player not suspended him/her.
     
  23. Winder UO

    Winder UO Guest

    a few months ago Vendor Searching websites such as the one you are referring to got deemed illegal, thus the ban is completely justified by EA.
     
  24. BajaElladan

    BajaElladan Certifiable
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    They are leaving the books on the ground to me and mine.....to date I have raised millions selling such books...others continue to be collected and dropped into nearby trash containers.....Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, what about the people on this board that have those type of web sites in their signature here on staratics? It is worse, because they only advertise the rip off vendors in Luna..........Now, make one that shows ALL the Player Vendors, then it would be argued that it should be allowed.

    If EA want's to punish people, then punish the PLAYERS that run the sites, and have those vendors in Luna that actively promote those sites.
     
  26. Repowski

    Repowski Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If it is a no-brainer then why are so many people unaware that they are illegal?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly...

    How does one know that they can talk about stratics, and not some other site? I honestly don't know which sites I'm allowed to talk about and which I'm not... and I've been in this game since '99.

    I just don't talk about anything that could be even remotely shady.

    Won't even say the word "dupe" in game. In any context.
     
  27. JoyousGard

    JoyousGard Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If it is a no-brainer then why are so many people unaware that they are illegal?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly...

    How does one know that they can talk about stratics, and not some other site? I honestly don't know which sites I'm allowed to talk about and which I'm not... and I've been in this game since '99.

    I just don't talk about anything that could be even remotely shady.

    Won't even say the word "dupe" in game. In any context.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Part of this thread deals with the banned person's ignorance of the law. "He was a hapless returning newb. He advertised an illegal website but didn't know it was illegal. Then he got a short term ban for it. Boo hoo."

    Isn't there something in Latin or some basic legal precedent... "Ignorance of the law does not make a person immune from it." If I just made that up, this is still true.

    IN RL: For weeks a guy is making right hand turns on red in NYC. He finally gets stopped and is given a citation for making illegal right hand turns on red. His argument is that he didn't know it was illegal to turn right on red in NYC. He still pays the citation and now he knows the law.
     
  28. <blockquote><hr>


    It actually has everything to do with it. Simply by giving out the name in game is breaking this rule.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    The books aren't what you have to worry about. It's all the people who drop/use the books you have to worry about. I wouldn't be overly worried about them with scripting and speed hacking running rampant.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Well, what about the people on this board that have those type of web sites in their signature here on staratics? It is worse, because they only advertise the rip off vendors in Luna..........Now, make one that shows ALL the Player Vendors, then it would be argued that it should be allowed.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Actually one of them does do vendor houses all over, not just Luna. So you are saying that such a site should be allowed, even though it runs on scripting and makes money selling gold and items?
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Neither of those rules applied to this case.
     
  31. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    Susspensions should not be given based on things people say period. If you don't like what they say then walk away. Most of these players have said and heard worse IRL. I don't think EA can really afford to ban anyone for minor crap. Scamming is one thing, but just giving out a website address that can most likely easily be found on a search engine should not warrant action.
     
  32. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including <font color=red>without limitation</font color=red> advertising, promotional materials, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or make any commercial use of our Service.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This rule is so incredibly freaking borked. I can probably dig in Stratics forums and come up with developers that posted links and advertisements for certain pay sites that sell UO items. That would fall under this rule yet they do jack about it.
     
  33. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    "23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. "


    what does this have to do with the topic ? notta

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It actually has everything to do with it. Simply by giving out the name in game is breaking this rule.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Except that giving out the name of a website is not...

    "an utilitiy" I think IE or Firefox are utilities but I don't think the internet is one.
    "an application" Again a website is not an application.
    "an emulator" I'm pretty damn sure that a website isn't that either.
    "software" Again not a website.

    That means that seeing giving out information about a website doesn't at all reference this rule until a website becomes one of these categories then this rule doesn't apply at all. Now, if the website was to an utility, an application, an emulator, or software that was illegal then yes it would be advertising but all the website is is a list of what is on each vendor. If you want to make the arguement that the person in question knew that these websites used illegal programs to get information then you better prove that he knew that an intentionally broke the rule anyways.
     
  34. "an utilitiy" I think IE or Firefox are utilities but I don't think the internet is one."

    The website itself is a utility.
     
  35. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If it is a no-brainer then why are so many people unaware that they are illegal?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly...

    How does one know that they can talk about stratics, and not some other site? I honestly don't know which sites I'm allowed to talk about and which I'm not... and I've been in this game since '99.

    I just don't talk about anything that could be even remotely shady.

    Won't even say the word "dupe" in game. In any context.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think the best thing that I ever read about this topic was from a poster on WoW forumns.

    It read something like:

    You still trying to get me banned huh? Well, unfortunately for you I know not to go off on someone in game. That is what forums, icq, and ventrillo are for.
     
  36. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    "an utilitiy" I think IE or Firefox are utilities but I don't think the internet is one."

    The website itself is a utility.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not unless you want to get really vague. Try getting that arguement to hold up in court and I guarantee the response will be void for vagueness. You can't enforce a law that is so vague that it can be arguably used to make any point. I am pretty sure most people do not think of the internet as a utility. The internet is a collection of data.

    Also to another poster: yes ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but you can still use ignorance of a law as a defense strategy if you can actually prove that you did not know the law. Of course, as a player of an EA product you should have read the TOS and ROC and if they say that you may not advertise websites you should know about that rule.

    On a side note, this just makes people realise that talking to other players they barely know about anything is kind of dangerous if that person decides to be mean about it.
     
  37. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    You're not serious are you? This is a no-brainer.

    If the website is automatically scanning vendors, it's a non-allowed client into the game data. Stratics utilities are not reading game data, they're just a calculator based on formulas provided or guessed. So unless the site you're talking about is just a message board of what people have seen, it can't possibly be allowed unless or until the devs decide it would be a useful feature to provide to the whole community.

    [/ QUOTE ]The website ISN'T automatically scanning vendors. That would take some very serious work to make happen. I would imagine that someone has created a script that reads information in from the UO.txt file that's created by the journal.

    Now, how that information is being gathered... that's probably done via macro that operates a particular character that goes through and clicks on every single item in a backpack.



    All of that aside, mentioning the name of the website in question, unless it's something like www.illegalscanningofuogoods.com, shouldn't be grounds for a suspension, particularly since there's a difference between the advertisement of and the mention of a website. Advertisement is standing around saying, "Visit www.xyz.com for gold!" and spamming it or leaving it in books on the ground or whatever. And hell, I could probably be banned for that since I think one of my bulletin boards leads to a community RPG website for more information about the Great Lakes roleplaying community.

    *shrugs*

    Stupid rule. Stupid enforcement. Typical of EA.
     
  38. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    a few months ago Vendor Searching websites such as the one you are referring to got deemed illegal, thus the ban is completely justified by EA.

    [/ QUOTE ]Well that's news to me.

    I suppose EA's keeping that decision locked up somewhere... I can understand why they would be, but they've certainly NOT made that publicly available, and if they're going to expect people to follow their rules, they damned well better post 'em somewhere.

    Blanket "this falls under guideline X because we say it does" is just plain stupid.
     
  39. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    The website itself is a utility.

    [/ QUOTE ]Do you know what the word "utility" applies to? The software definition of a utility is NOT a website. A utility is, for example, a defragger, an anti-virus program, a backup system, a macro utility, et cetera. They are applications that do not fall into the category of game or productivity and are often related to internal operating system workings.

    A website falls into NONE of these categories. And before you go whipping out Merriam Webster on me, don't bother. Regardless of vague interpretations of the word, the accepted and industry standard definition of the word utility as applies to computer software is not vague, nor does it apply to websites.
     
  40. deadite

    deadite Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend It's My Birthday

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    Wow. You don't need to whip our Merriam Dictionary to figure out that you are woefully uninformed about website technology.

    You think that page is static HTML? It's got the same kinds of code running in the background as any number of applications and software utilities that you could name. Just because it runs on a remote server and not on your local machine doesn't make it a utility?

    By your logic, I guess you wouldn't consider online virus scanners utilities then?
     
  41. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Wow. You don't need to whip our Merriam Dictionary to figure out that you are woefully uninformed about website technology.

    You think that page is static HTML? It's got the same kinds of code running in the background as any number of applications and software utilities that you could name. Just because it runs on a remote server and not on your local machine doesn't make it a utility?

    [/ QUOTE ]Hold on a moment... let me look at my business card again. Oh, that's right... It does say "Senior Web Developer" on it. Where in the world did I indicate that I believed it was a static HTML page? I'm refering to the list of programs indicated by EA's Terms of Service, and a utility in that context is NOT a website. Additionally, regardless of the code running behind the website, that does not in and of itself make it a utility. In fact, if anything, the website is a productivity application that uses (gasp) a database to help sort and identify specific pieces of information. Databases are not called utility software.

    Where did I indicate that the location of the program indicated anything at all?

    <blockquote><hr>

    By your logic, I guess you wouldn't consider online virus scanners utilities then?

    [/ QUOTE ]No, that would be by your logic. In fact, I do believe that I indicated that anti-virus software is a utility.

    But hey, welcome to the world of trying to call me out and being woefully wrong.
     
  42. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including <font color=red>without limitation</font color=red> advertising, promotional materials, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or make any commercial use of our Service.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This rule is so incredibly freaking borked. I can probably dig in Stratics forums and come up with developers that posted links and advertisements for certain pay sites that sell UO items. That would fall under this rule yet they do jack about it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not so "borked" when you get around to realizing that you CAN'T "dig around" in the Ultima Online archives .... and find the same thing ...[​IMG]
    The TOS and ROC are about THE GAME and playing IN THE GAME ... not about the "rule of law" for the entire internet ... there's the game ...
    and theres the rest of the internet.

    "Here" we are not IN&gt; the game &lt; ... "Here" is a different part of the internet ... "Here" the TOS/ROC are different ... [​IMG]

    and there ... is where the other poster becomes "wrong":
    Lord_Chaos Neither of those rules applied to this case. [​IMG]
    BOTH those rules and all the rest of the TOS/ROC .... DO apply to the case of "A player IN Ultima Online" doing anything ... [​IMG]

    Of course ... the OP KNEW that ... re-read the topic and first Line of text

    Rules not in the TOS should give warnings first, not suspensions .
    Unfortunatly a player who has recently returned to the game got suspended for giving out the address of one of those popular vendor searching websites. He did not know they were illegal and a (griefing) player paged on him.
    [​IMG]

    Now that the thread has progressed a bit ... what would you say the OP was "asking" for ... ???

    Put simply: more slack? or, less slack? for infringememt of the "rules"

    [​IMG]
     
  43. deadite

    deadite Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend It's My Birthday

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    I'm not going to argue semantics with you.

    You say:
    <blockquote><hr>

    In fact, if anything, the website is a productivity application that uses...

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Ahem:
    <blockquote><hr>

    "23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. "

    [/ QUOTE ]
    So again, how is this not illegal? Even if you want to go around the block about the differences between a "utility" and an "application" you are still in the wrong and EA is well within their rights to enforce this.
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    RTLFC

    I do agree with the warning, especially since this is a teen rated game and alot of kids dont know what all this means.

    Returning vet or not.
    What i would like to see is that the rules are updated when new ones come out and Items turn legal/illigal. And that bannable items are listed somewhere and the list is easy to find.

    I know Rules are important and are suppose to make the game better for all of us, i just dont like that when you buy a copy of the UO game and you are new to it you are forced to look through a huge amount of online information to make sure you arent breaking any rules.

    It should be easier
     
  45. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    I'm not going to argue semantics with you.

    You say:
    <blockquote><hr>

    In fact, if anything, the website is a productivity application that uses...

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Ahem:
    <blockquote><hr>

    "23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. "

    [/ QUOTE ]
    So again, how is this not illegal? Even if you want to go around the block about the differences between a "utility" and an "application" you are still in the wrong and EA is well within their rights to enforce this.

    [/ QUOTE ]Oh dear god. You start with saying you're not going to argue semantics, and then you choose to argue them.

    Visiting UO Stratics, by the wide birth of your definition, is, indeed, a bannable offense then. They have skill calculators, they have information about the game, they have a ton of stuff available here that can be considered an "application." I guess they better start the mass bannings.

    Now, let's try some better highlighting here:
    <blockquote><hr>

    "23. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service."

    [/ QUOTE ]The website is not being used WITH the service. It is being used as an external reference ABOUT the service. How the people constructing the website go about gathering their information is between UO and EA, and if that's illegal, then EA should go about shutting them down. However, banning someone for visiting a website that EA has posted NO clear information regarding, much less ANY specific information defining it as illegal, is above and beyond EA's PROPER use of their own rules.

    Sure, EA can do what they want. That doesn't make them correct in doing so.

    EDIT : I just realized you're too dense to understand the idea of using something WITH the service, so let me clarify: WITH = used in tandem with. IE: UO Assist, UO AutoMap, and UO The Illegal Cheat Program We Won't Mention by Name. Of those three, only ONE is illegal because it does not have EA's permission. Not sure about UOAM these days since its author no longer maintains it.

    But believe me, there are THOUSANDS of websites (okay... hundreds... UO doesn't have the popularity these days) out there that provide information about UO. It doesn't make them illegal. And EA can go ahead and ban me for visiting whatever website they want. I'll thank them for removing my need to pay them.
     
  46. deadite

    deadite Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend It's My Birthday

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Visiting UO Stratics, by the wide birth of your definition, is, indeed, a bannable offense then. They have skill calculators, they have information about the game, they have a ton of stuff available here that can be considered an "application." I guess they better start the mass bannings.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Um, no, any applications/utilities/tools here are legal because Stratics has permission from EA...

    <blockquote><hr>

    However, banning someone for visiting a website that EA has posted NO clear information regarding, much less ANY specific information defining it as illegal, is above and beyond EA's PROPER use of their own rules.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    They didn't ban them for using the website, they banned them for advertising it (which is CLEARLY against TOS). The fact that the website pulls (or is pushed) data from a utility, application, tool (whatever you want to call it), doesn't help its case because they do NOT have permission from EA to use such utilities, applications, tools, etc.

    The semantics remark, as you know, was about the utility vs. application spiel you had gone off on.

    Any other names or insults you want to hurl at me? I assure you that they don't hurt my feelings in the least. Nice try, though. [​IMG]
     
  47. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Um, no, any applications/utilities/tools here are legal because Stratics has permission from EA...

    [/ QUOTE ]Really? Where's their permission for say the skill calculators for blacksmithing, tinkering, et cetera? I don't think they've got any. Not, mind you, that I believe they need any either, but if you're going to say that a database of information requires EA's permission to access, then we're all sort of screwed.
    <blockquote><hr>

    hey didn't ban them for using the website, they banned them for advertising it (which is CLEARLY against TOS). The fact that the website pulls (or is pushed) data from a utility, application, tool (whatever you want to call it), doesn't help its case because they do NOT have permission from EA to use such utilities, applications, tools, etc.

    [/ QUOTE ]Wrong, ding, thanks for playing. If you ask me a question in game, say, "What skill does it take to tame a nightmare?" And I respond, "I'm not sure, but go visit uo.stratics.com, and they've got a list there..." I am not "advertising" Stratics. I'm telling you about a resource. There is no "fine line" between telling someone where to go and advertisement. They are VERY different actions.

    And again, I see nothing on UO's site, no list of anything, not even ONE implication that me accessing a website that lists things that are for sale on a vendor is in any way illegal. People here say it's been deemed illegal. Fact remains EA mentions it ZERO times on their website.

    <blockquote><hr>

    The semantics remark, as you know, was about the utility vs. application spiel you had gone off on.

    Any other names or insults you want to hurl at me? I assure you that they don't hurt my feelings in the least. Nice try, though. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]*laugh* You took me calling you "dense" as an insult? Sorry... your own baseless responses make it a fact, not an insult. My definition of a utility vs. an application still relies upon industry standard while yours relies on your own suppositions and twisted definitions applied more liberally than a child applies grape jelly to his peanut butter sandwich. At the end of the day, EA suspended someone for something they do NOT list as being illegal on their site anywhere.

    And they really have to delineate better. If the site in question was hosting The Program That Shall Not Be Named, THAT would be a clear violation. Again, if the issue EA has with these sites that list vendor stocks is illegal because of the way the information makes it into the database, then they REALLY need to crack down on the websites, not on the users.

    I mean, if you want to hit that level of silliness, then sites that list items for sale at an in-game auction could be accused of using a macro to update the list.

    And in this case, if EA would get off its lazy hind end and put in the LONG REQUESTED in-game feature of being able to search vendors (even if it's by house sign at a location, which they WERE working on at one point), people wouldn't be looking for better ways to find the information that they want.

    It's a nice way for EA to point the fingers at its playerbase for their own shortcomings, but unless I'm missing something outside of the possible macro-use that updates these websites (because I guarantee you, it's not a website logging in and pretending to play UO, directly updating itself), there's about as much harm to the community as... err... that's right, there isn't any.
     
  48. deadite

    deadite Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend It's My Birthday

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    <blockquote><hr>

    And again, I see nothing on UO's site, no list of anything, not even ONE implication that me accessing a website that lists things that are for sale on a vendor is in any way illegal. People here say it's been deemed illegal. Fact remains EA mentions it ZERO times on their website.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Again, you are implying that he was suspended for accessing the website... that's not what I got out of reading the OP.

    And YES, there is indeed a FINE LINE between giving someone information and flat out advertising. It's called VIRAL ADVERTISING or VIRAL MARKETING.

    Referring someone to Stratics isn't a problem because they are an official UO Fansite. A partner. I don't see why you keep bringing Stratics into this. You can metagame here, but this is an EA-approved site. And if Stratics ever put up some tool/utility/application that was pushing the boundaries of the TOS, you can bet your bottom dollar EA would ask them to remove it and Stratics would, indeed, remove it. For all we know, EA has already asked that website and others like it to cease and desist. Not all things are made public.

    Who knows about this guy. Maybe it was innocent like you keep insisting. Maybe not. Maybe he "casually" informed a few dozen people before he was suspended. Maybe not. Maybe he just happened to get caught doing it once and since the site is OBVIOUSLY a touchy subject, EA decided to take action. Maybe not.

    Your conjecture, semantics and big juicy metaphors have made for a pretty entertaining read. I appreciate your passion, but in your little crusade, you are refusing to see the other side of the coin.

    I think I've made my case a few times now, so that's all the effort I'm going to put into this thread.
     
  49. <blockquote><hr>



    IN RL: For weeks a guy is making right hand turns on red in NYC. He finally gets stopped and is given a citation for making illegal right hand turns on red. His argument is that he didn't know it was illegal to turn right on red in NYC. He still pays the citation and now he knows the law.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    turning right on red is a neccesity in michigan, NY needs to change there law obviously [​IMG]
     
  50. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Well, what about the people on this board that have those type of web sites in their signature here on staratics? It is worse, because they only advertise the rip off vendors in Luna..........Now, make one that shows ALL the Player Vendors, then it would be argued that it should be allowed.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Actually one of them does do vendor houses all over, not just Luna. So you are saying that such a site should be allowed, even though it runs on scripting and makes money selling gold and items?

    [/ QUOTE ]


    your missing the point ..
    it needs to do ALL vendors, not just selective one's.

    the problem i have with the current one's are they cater to luna vendors mainly and they are ALL overpriced.


    ya'll are almost accusing EA of policing what sites we can visit.