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Runics need a fix.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Speedy Orkit, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    When a valorite runic hammer can take months and months to get...and 99/100 times you can imbue a better item than you would get off burning multiple hammers, there is a problem.

    Allow us to pick the properties from runics or something. Or at least SOME of the properties, for example:

    Gold hammer has 4 properties + DI which is a given. Based on your 120 smith, 100 arms lore you get to pick... 2 of the mods, so you pick lightning and HLD. You end up with...

    40 Lightning
    38 HLD
    Snow Ele slayer
    25SSI
    40DI

    Sure it isn't great, but it's better than:
    HSL
    -23 Mage weapon
    FC1
    Undead Slayer
    40DI

    Imbuing has become the end game.. and to me that is sad. Sure you have to farm the ingredients, but that is abundantly easy to do. Does anyone else think runic tools got boned with the implementation of imbuing?

    I agree imbuing was needed to help level the field, and give everyone a chance at nice gear.... but I feel work should reflect reward, and a lot more work goes into getting valorite runics and barbed kits than burning an oak kit for balanced property and then farming for 45 minutes to make a nice composite.
     
  2. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    They're fine the way they are. We don't need it made even easier to get super powerful items.
     
  3. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Seems to me that the rate of the increase of rarity should correlate directly to the rate of the runic's ability.

    Currently it seems Rarity increases exponentially while the increase of ability is linear.
    End result is that the best runics' rarities far supersede their usefulness. (exception being barbed kits)

    ... mathematically this makes no utilitarian sense. This results in Valorite Runic's true value being as bragging rights and decoration, much more akin to high-level deco stealables.
     
  4. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Apparently you have not burned a valorite hammer lately. I'm guessing you're an imbuer who likes to rule the market.
     
  5. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    *dislike button*
     
  6. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As a matter of fact I have, and I don't rule much of anything... :)

    I just don't think we need even more powerful items in the game. I think we have more than enough the way things are. I understand wanting the high end runics to be more useful than they are, I just don't see any way to do that without making the templates and suits you are seeing in the game right now even more ridiculous.

    You can make items with a val hammer that rock the socks off imbued items. It is just incredibly rare. I think the balance there is fine.

    And don't take this as a bash against imbuing, or "the state of the game". I think the game is doing just fine, and I love imbuing, but I think we are getting close to a place where putting together the perfect suit will be too easy, and I think it should be a challenge.
     
  7. ImaNoobieToo

    ImaNoobieToo Adventurer
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    Runic hammers and sewing kits are going the way of vanq weapons => UO just doesn't have a place for them anymore except as a way to create items that have the self repair property IMO.

    Barbed runics are insanely cheap now with a few million purchased from a broker you could have dozens. Some say DUPE I say ummm ya what you just now found out? =/
     
  8. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    The only problem I do have, is when something like imbuing is implemented, it's done so to the detriment of other areas of the game.

    For what it's worth, I think when they make such a big change, they should also make the decision to remove the areas of the game they make obsolete, or actually provide a beneficial use for them to compensate. What's the point of having a smith or tailor, if the best they can aim to be, is the supporting role for an artificer? People working BODS in an attempt to get runics, now superseded by imbuing, seems entirely pointless altogether really.

    Just my tuppence ;)
     
  9. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    They will have to either the hammers much more useful by making even more powerful equipment that could only be gain like that or make imbuing as hard as getting verite-valorite hammer. And if they think Going the other way by making bods easier is the way to go they would be 1000x times wrong which will end up making the bod system useless. Just adding that tid bit there just incase they get a insane idea like that.

    They have only those 2 ways to go. Either increase the power of the high end runic hammers to be 2x or more the power of the highest imbuing item. Or make imbuing as tough as getting a verite and valorite hammer not like it is now.
     
  10. eekamouse

    eekamouse Guest

    Just up the uses of the high end hammers and kits...

    Once you do get a Val, you only get 15 uses... Feh!
     
  11. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    I thought letting you chose the properties then rolling the intensities as normal, and not allowing them to be imbued would be nice.

    You'd get to pick your Properties like you do with imbuing, but there would still be a luck factor involved with the intensities but you would still be able to make 7-8 mod weapons as the perk.
     
  12. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Any time anyone says, "..not allowing them to be imbued...", I will be against that.

    My impression was the arties imbuing was not a bug from the beginning and not sure why the general new "arty imbue is a bug" change.

    Opposed to that specifically.

    -Lorax
     
  13. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    My example requires the "can not be imbued" or everyone would make their complete set of slayers with 1 DC hammer which wouldn't help anything.
     
  14. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Yes, Dull copper hammers are now useful. Don't make them useless. Opposed.

    -Lorax
     
  15. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    Right because runic tool worth being completely backwards atm due to Imbuing, which has nothing to do with Runic hammers, makes total sense...
     
  16. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    I don't understand what you are saying. A DC hammer, or an oak fletching kit or whatever can give a base starting point for any armor or weapon that saves up to 5-10 relics.

    The DC hammer is worth more than 5 relic and probably closer to 15 relics. Crafters now have capabilities that shouldn't be nerfed.

    The hammers are not valued to a high level on vendors because crafters obtain them ourselves by crafting and bods.

    I feel the only reason you would be contrary is if you are a luna vendor that wants to mark up the price to make gold off crafters. Opposed.

    -Lorax
     
  17. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    So the whole runic system is now for saving a couple relics when you Imbue?

    And I'm not really talking about low end runics, I'm talking about high end runics like bronze + that can't be imbued anyway.
     
  18. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    It's worth 15 relics? The dc hammer which is the easiest of all rewards is worth as much as the hardest resource of imbuing? Thank UO gods this ain't true or else I would trow my hands up and give up. Though It sure seems like there is less and less a place for us trammelites though and your kind of close in a way.. Dc hammers go for 7-10k in luna average 9k or so. Relic fragment is worth around 32-33k each. So the difference from the easiest to aquire resource and the most valuable highest resource that makes every other crafting sytem in UO mongbat bait is a 23k difference. Average reward for killing a trog or any such creature in massive amunts 2k per. with average of 40 per 10minutes= 80k
    460k per hour.
    Average amount of gold out there more than 50mil on average. Still alot more than 480k. So you see where the system is messed up at?
    Excluding siege economy. Average over there should be 5mil but because of shear low volume of players most of them there are already very established. Prices for all items around the same?. So for some reason production products are worth as much as in a siege economy? Yep the system is definetly messed up.
    On a side note I hope they have a DEV there that know about UO economy. Cause it sure seems like those that knew got fired. I wish they said something about it. Sure seems like we becoming like test center you know.
     
  19. eekamouse

    eekamouse Guest

    This is exactly the problem. I personally like how the Imbuing system has made low end runics at least useful. However, they've done it at the "expense" of higher end runics, which I don't think is right.
     
  20. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Real crafters save all their runics and Luna vampires sell them. The last time I needed a balanced bow I burned an oak fletching kit and got two = 10 relics and essence. I needed 30% SSI on a metal weapon and I got three = 15 relics and essence.

    Real crafters don't care about the price you can sell it for in Luna because they use it and make weapons and suits for their buddies.

    Value is in Value to the holder of the item. I don't understand your complaint either. If I got a valorite hammer I would lock it down only because over 12 years I have only seen two and both in other people's house. It would only be a trophy to me. I never sell any runics I get because their value is higher to me in use than in gold.

    The only thing the devs could do to improve high end hammers is to give more uses. The function they serve is entirely properly defined and has been in the game for years. Increase the entire high end to 25, but don't nerf crafters.

    -Lorax
     
  21. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    I agree with the OP, runics are not worth the hassle anymore, and imbueing is the best way by far, im sure the devs can figure out a way for runics and the other craft classes to get back some of their former glory. I hope....o_O
     
  22. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Weird I don't think that is true. I've being crafting a long time/. Most of my buddies are crafters. Everyone has there own suits. After you got your suit after your buddies got your own suit then what? What to do hmm.. I can toss hammers around nah. Juggle them? Awe wait till my buddies that might not have already there own crafter ask me for a suit or I switch my templates. But then Im back to juggling hammers standing tall. Yep I and others spent years and years on thsi just to juglle hammers. Fun times.
    Never mind our suit venders or our crafter guikd homes to merchandise our hard work. Never mind the vender malls and the houses Never mind the services to get hired for. Never mind any of that. We just want to make a suit for us and our budiies that took us years of bod collecting and then juggle our hammers. Wait thats what imbuing is for!!!
    Why have venders at all lets do away with them lets do away with gold lets put in no drop no trade on everything. There now we have a perfect pvp life. Ooops us non pvper's will have to go to another game we pretty much finished this one.
     
  23. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    I know you just got a valorite hammer, but it really is worth a lot in capability. If you make any of the ML recipe non-artifact weapons a runic made weapon will be 200% better than anything imbued. I have made a ton of items on the test shard and what can be created with runics is amazing, but probability is low that each hit will be exactly what you want. You may make something that a pvp'er would want though or someone with slightly different suite than yours.

    You'll make things that are spell channeling when you wanted SSI, but that is the probability method. You will need to give them away to your friends or sell them, but I bet everything you get would be good for someone.

    I used a few heartwood saw's making my sampire armor and I got some amazing items that couldn't have occured playing under the imbuers rules. Like I got resistances in the high 20's multiple times on one piece plus DI 10% and stamina/mana.

    -Lorax
     
  24. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    If the idea of embuing was to "even the playing field" between the haves and the have nots, then making runics too powerful would be stepping back in the wrong direction, especially, as the OP points out, if val hammers are rare items (please don't derail this thread talking about duping).

    Perhaps a small tweak might be in order, but anything too much, and we are back where we started from, and that woulkd be either nerfing runics, or upping hte power of embuing, both bad ideas.
     
  25. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    I don't know why you're flaming me. I just disagreed with making runic made items not imbueable.

    Flame on and have fun!

    -Lorax
     
  26. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Because of this "Real crafters save all their runics and Luna vampires sell them."
    Sure I have plenty of hammers barely even sell the valorite ones. But I consider myself a real crafter even though I have venders in luna,yew,by multiple dugeon entrances,my own homes, guild houses and a couple of gates. Though I like to craft I like the though when someone is using something I made. But I like to get a return for my hard work. Why would anybody use my goods if they can make there own with no trouble. I already supplied myself and friends that needed but then what?. I want to sell my suits I want to sell my excess. At this moment every hammer is better to sell than a suit made by them. Though the high end hammers are almost worthless. Don't consider myself a vampire though.
     
  27. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    The only thing I've really got from your posts so far is to change nothing because DC hammers save imbuers money on relics. Which is fine and all, I do the same thing, but at the same time it doesn't help high end runics.

    And like you said, ya you can get crazy items from high end runics still, but the sheer crap shoot involved doesn't compare to just skipping it and going with full Imbuing, or using 30 DC hammers until you get that one relic mod at 100% then putting exactly what you want, at 100%, on the other 4 mods.

    So going back to giving HIGH END runics a bit of love, the idea of the OP is still decent, but maybe needs to work based on the lvl of the runic. Example: DC - Bronze would remain as is and unchanged. Then starting at Golden, you would get to pick 1 property. Agapite hammer would allow 2 choices and so on up to Valorite.

    Or how about this, completely put this idea aside, what are you thoughts on high end runics? You feel they are fine as is? or Do you feel they could use a bit of love, and if so, what would that love be?
     
  28. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Sorry good fellow, I can see why you would be sensitive to that given your reporting of the amount of gold you have and why others would be sensitive to that. I thought you were flaming me and in support about disagreeing with the additional nerf on imbuing being requested by Invalid. I guess my vampire comment draws in attention to economics rather than function of the items. I am poor because I gather and horde all my stuff including items from the early years of UO.

    Even though you are trying to make a bag of gold, the truth is the mechanics of runics are fine. You and others haven't recognized all the capabilities of the tools to enhance a players suit and weapons. This thread should forget about selling items and relative worth for selling. The fact is if you make certain things with them they create better items than can be imbued.

    -Lorax
     
  29. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    My comment to you was specific and not for the reason you say. Don't nerf imbuing.

    -Lorax
     
  30. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    Maybe I'm uncertain the reason then.

    And if you look at the part you snipped out, the idea in there has no limit to imbuing. I'm honestly not trying to flame you or anything, but this is something I've been thinking of lately and the OP pretty much posted something I had thought of so I commented.

    Do you have any ideas of your own or do you feel high end runics are fine?
     
  31. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    I was going to stay out of this thread because others had already suggested things that I could have on a wish list like directing which properties to add, but the imbuing nerf got me into it.

    I have saved my 2 gold, 3 agapite, and verite hammers because I haven't decided what to make for over four years. I was considering ornate axes and guardian axes and such, but haven't commited.

    I created a new Sampire to try and get arty and replica drops so figured out a great use for my three heartwood saws and burned them and the results were amazing, but for about one suit maybe make a 2nd. I didn't care about the gold price when I used them, but went to the test center and verified I could make exactly what I wanted.

    A wish for the low end wooden runics would be to add 100% like the hammers, but that really isn't necessary since we can imbue.

    A wish for the metal materials had better bonus's like wood types. That would make the runics have an additional perceived greatness compared to imbuing like the saws. If some metals gave DCI or something else like SSI on armor that would be cool.

    I think the actual methods the hammers use to be adjusted right, but more uses is reasonable.

    -Lorax
     
  32. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
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    Personally, I think that runics are fine, and that the fallacy is in comparing runics with imbuing to begin with - while they may be complimentary, to a degree, they are mutually exclusive.

    You can only imbue so much. 450 or 500 total points. The only items you have total control over, start to finish, are jewels - everything else, you are stuck with what already exists.

    Given the right tool, the right luck, and the right material, you can create, with the swing of a hammer, or the turn of the needle, or the swipe of a saw, items that rival, or even surpass, artifacts. If people want some modicum of control over what magic is passed from the tool to the item, then tie it to another skill - say, magery... if you expect to be able to control an aspect of magic, you should have an understanding of magic.

    And that's from someone that's burned more sewing kits and runic hammers than many have seen, ever. Yeah, it's annoying - incredibly annoying. But no more so than everyone asking for yet another easy button.
     
  33. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Ok this is longer than I wanted it but oh well it's friday and Im stuck at home.

    Never reported the amount of gold I have. Only when I came back a few years ago I only had 1 mil in the bank. But the knowlledge is more important than anything but thats another thread. Just saying behind every pvm,crafter,all those that don't engage in true rp and pvp it's the merchant. They are merchants they keep the best and sell the rest. You of course are much richer than you say. If you horde since the earlie days that means you havbe non spawnable,seers,pets and other items. All will still fetch a rich sum. You are rich in property. I am also rich in property. Gold itself is just a method used to trade things.

    back to the topic at hand. The players all the players are reaching there caps easily and without help from any others these days. Once they reach this cap there is no more constant need for any crafting proccess that true crafters play at 60% of the time in the game. Slowly but surely less need is needed for anything else. Eventually that would be it. We are not flowing in new players to keep us active. We are drenched in vets who need a thing to do. It used to be that we formed our own world with always constant hunting for the better item or constant building our wealth for the more rare items or constant crafting to get a better item. Key word in that is constant which kept us occupied all these years.
    Now we are moving to making the most difficult things to aquire and do as easy to if we started a new character last week. Once we done everything aquired everything what's left? We don't have 100ks of players to play with we don't have 100's of new players joining every day in our shards to keep us busy. We are almost to the point we are relying on the next publish or next expansion to keep our interest like WOW and other games. We no longer have it in our own hands. I remember a time that the Dev where silent for years but we all were still having the time of our lives. There were still challenges,still goals.
    PVP will be the last to be effected by this type of change but eventually they to will feel it. We still have some goals and some challenges left to do. But compared to year ago these challenges and goals are so much easier to achieve.

    They need our subscription money and they do not have the resources to continue to keep us occupied every week. Eventualy they will give and we will be left with everything finish. Hopefully they will find something self sufficient that will keep us entertained for years to come or We will eventualy end UO.
     
  34. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I think the runic system is fine as is, though I do agree more uses across the board would be appropriate, to mellow out the curve of "nothing good per swing".

    Perhaps 40 uses for a top-end runic, 100 on the lowest end. I'm kinda torn though.

    However, since the lower end ones (I'm talking smithing/tailoring) are somewhat easy to get, it might be better to just bump up the top 4 runics by 5 or 10 and leave the lower ones (<= bronze) as is.

    Overall I want them to increase and improve the bod system to include all crafters. It would make training much better and give the devs outlets to add more content.

    As it is, if I ever get a high end runic, I'll probably do a few hits to get some good pieces, sell a few hits perhaps, and then keep the runic with 1 charge for display. But I'm not likely to ever get one, so what does it matter.
     
  35. maroite

    maroite Guest

    So essentially you have to be an extremely established BoD farmer in order to be the best of crafters, and the only reason to farm BoD's now is to better the imbuing system?

    Yeah, that makes sense... not to mention that you're saying people should do tailoring/blacksmithing BoD's in order to better their imbuing. How does that make sense? ... Why should tailoring, bowcrafting, and smithing become support skills for imbuing instead of having their own superior items which are just as easy and efficient to make?

    Its amusing that you accuse people of being greedy also, when in fact you don't want this to change because you have a monopoly on the market, and if BoD's or the power of runics changed, it could hurt your imbuing monopoly.

    Yeah, keep hording your precious useless gold. :lol:rolleyes:
     
  36. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Imbuing is a great and annoying answer to the flood of hacked and scripted runics. The runic tools at whatever level is balanced and meld well in crafting. Yadda Yadda Yadda RELICS Blah Blah Blah. Every Imbuer without a bot scripted load of ingots and BODs knows the greatest item needed is POF. I never abused the system to rack up 10s of thousands of relics. My relic supply grows without the 20 shakes of durability to start Imbuing.

    They want to keep ahead of the gold grubbers. They just need to have a code that banns an account as soon as a character has more the 5 PoF in backpack/vendor/packy. Seen plp paying up to 500k per jar of PoF. It is the first hurdle and what they really need to be watching.
     
  37. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    I'm established in UO with characters of almost all the skills on multiple accounts and don't have a problem with the system right now. I have every crafter. Yes the blacksmiths, tailors and carpenters now play a support role to imbuing. That is how the developers intended it. You forget the developers designed this game and also didn't change blacksmithy and tailoring because they want it this way, afraid of change, minimize design expenses, and keep things from taking multiple years to introduce.

    I don't have a vendor and haven't since Trammel first came out and I had my vendor house by the Vesper Bucs den gate. I cancelled my account and let the vendor house fall, but that was maybe 7 years ago or something (have no clue). This means I don't have a monopoly on anything.

    As I said I was going to stay out of this thread because I wanted to hear other people's ideas. Anything suggested so far would only benefit my smith and tailor and don't have a problem. The only problem I would have is when people ask for nerfs. My experience is if people ask enough for nerfs then the developers may not play the game and understand how that affects the current system. I wanted to be vocal to not add a nerf.

    In general, a blacksmith is a person that works metal and has no knowledge of magic and applying magic properties to armor or weapons. This is why they use a hammer and they can't control the forces within the hammer, but accept the outcome of their use.

    Imbuers can control the forces of magical properties and can supply these into the armor, but have no idea how to actually work the metal. They require the expertise of blacksmiths, tailors, tinkers, carpenters to actually make something worth applying their magical concentrations of form.

    This support role is how the developers released SA and each expert supports the other.

    -Lorax