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SA anti-tamer?

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by Wolfways, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    Having come back to UO recently my wife and i have spent most of our time training up skills to have playable characters.
    The only ones that are playable really atm are our tamers and mages, although both have very crap gear.

    So, yesturday we decided to have our first look in the stygian abyss and we took our tamers through the tomb of kings quests and entered SA.
    The first thing we run into was lava elementals and fire demons. As usual we send in the pets (cu sidhes) and follow up to vet.
    A couple of target-switching demons later we are ghosts and the demons rip our cu sidhes apart.
    Unfortunately my pets ghost wanders off further into the mobs and the only way to get it back is to run into the middle of the mobs and call it. A few more deaths later we're both ready to have another go. We send in the pets again against two demons that have followed us away from the elemental spawn...and not being able to vet, and neither of us being mages, we watch the demons kill our pets again. A usual the pets ignore us when we try to call them back (both 360tamers)...

    By now we're both sick of seeing our pets die and decide to have a look around SA with our mages instead.
    Hours later... No deaths, tons of kills, lots of loot. (Those ratmen spawn way too fast! But nothing a mage can't handle.)

    Eventually i just logoff because i'm annoyed that my tamer (my favourite character) cannot do something that a mage can do with ease. I hate mages. The only reason i have one is because i used to use him to mark runes for runebooks...And now he's my most powerful character! :(

    So....no idea why i'm writing this really. Just ranting i guess as i'm sick of all the idiot "tamers are overpowered" posts.
    Is there any point in Vet if we can't get near our pets because of target-switchers, and lots of fast respawning mobs?
     
  2. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    It's not that pets aren't viable in the Abyss, it is just more difficult than you might be used to. Like with other templates, your tamers should lead monsters away to fight one at a time. Do that and you should have no issues.
     
  3. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    One of the things I love about SA is that you can't really just take one pet and kill everything.

    Take the fire demon spawns, for example (one at each entrance to the Abyss).

    If you try them with a cu sidhe, you will likely get ripped to shreds. If you use a greater dragon, you'll survive, but you won't do the spawns very quickly. On the other hand, if you take two bake kitsune or a well played bake kitsune/rune beetle combination, you will rip the fire demons to wee little bits.

    The greater dragon shines against Medusa, but the Slasher of Veils will eat your dragon for a snack, but the bake kitsune (again) actually do pretty decently against them if you have two healers (their anti-pet special will only hit the bake for about 100 damage and the bake's resists are great against the Shasher's normal attacks). (disclaimer: it's still easier to take a mage or archer against Slasher)

    The Cu Sidhe do well against the undead spawns, the slime spawns and the forgotten servant/fairy dragon spawns, yet really really shine against Navery Nighteyes.

    No pet is suitible for the Cavern of Discarded, as a good swordsman with a soul seeker will clear the spawn about 4 times as quickly as even the best tamer.

    So picking the right weapon for the job is pretty important in the new content... and I love that.
     
  4. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    Well, I like the abyss for my tamer. I'll take my Pinky Hiryu with dicord and it is a nice challenge.....

    Now the new tameables are pretty bad IMO, Iron Beetles and Skrees (both pretty useless so far) are 4 slots? Raptors are cool but are dwarfed by most older pets.

    I am not saying we need more greater dragon power pets... but some new ones should have at least been a bit better.
     
  5. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    So...
    A mage can run through mobs he doesn't want to fight and can choose spells to suit the situation.
    A warrior can run through mobs he doesn't want to fight and can change weapons to suit the situation.
    A tamer has to think about what he wants to fight before going anywhere (so no exploring) and, unless only using a mount, has to fight his way through all mobs to get where he wants to be as the pet will attack just about everything, and then the tamer cannot just change pets to suit the situation.

    Yeah, sounds fair... :cursing:
     
  6. Mir07

    Mir07 Guest

    I miss the days of my tammer 5 years ago on SP was thinking about comming back as a tammer , sounds like if i wana explore all the new stuff just go full mage eh? toss in some stealth for SP i guess.
     
  7. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Uh Yup and if you got the Promotional Vellum Pet claim it. It will be basicaly a non ridable 2 Slot Nightmare. If you can sneak in Spellweaving you may have a good time :)
     
  8. Mir07

    Mir07 Guest

    Dont understand this Promotional Vellum pet how do you get it? , do you need to be a tamer to use it ?
     
  9. Drazasamus

    Drazasamus Guest

    nope... its a pet trapped in a crystal... like the squirrel or dog... insta bond, and its about as strong as a nightmare
     
  10. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I have np issues with my pets they do great my main are cu and greater and some times my beatle mare combo just have to bring right tame for the job ! as for the vallum i have not claimed mine yet trying to decide if i want it with my archer or my gargoyle (myst,eval imbue ,med,magery etc)!
     
  11. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Just my 2cp's.

    The Vallum(sp?) is wasted on a tamer.

    For any template that can either keep it alive or kill so quickly that the Vallum will survive is a good choice to get it.

    As far as my Animal Lore of it goes, it reads identical to a Nightmare, including the pita to raise Magery and for the exact same reason.

    It can heal and I have seen it cast paralyze quite often, if that helps you :) actually it cast the full range of Magery Spells.

    I put mine on my Mage+Necromancer+SpellWeaver. And of all the characters on that account, I am convinced I did the right thing and am actually enjoying it.
     
  12. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Just to add to the discussion...

    I am starting to feel Vet is useless. The only time I have vetted is when my GD decided to run into 3 other GD's and say something bad about one of their mothers. . . :fight:

    Vetting in the abyss is hazardous to your health. Lava Elems, Fire De mons, Skeletal Liches, Fire Ants, and probably many other mobs will switch off your pet and attack you if you try to med. REALLY annoying.

    This pretty much makes vet only useful if you want the extra stable slots.

    The new expansion, for the most part is not tamer friendly. You can't vet (120 wasted skill points) you can't summon your pet into the abyss, you can kill almost everything faster on a different char with a slayer weapon.

    Its because Tamers are over powered... Cause... my samurai with a vollum pet can't solo everything my tamer can... /sarcasm...
     
  13. Cal

    Cal Guest

    wow

    sounds like tamers got a massive nerf since the days I played
    :(
     
  14. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I think I will go with my archer my gargoyle uses a lot of summons !so vallum would not be good for her

    my tamer well that's obviously not a good choice

    my bard maybe be OK here but i tend to also use alot of summons

    my lj/miner thought about this just for protection but again I have summons

    my crafter not needed here at all since he never leaves the crafting area

    my bushido warrior (still working on this one) could be use full here!

    the only problem with my archer is I will be using chiv to heal I could drop resist and put vet on !
     
  15. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    No nerf.

    Just a bunch of people complaining that something's a little difficult. I vet just fine in the abyss, and with a hiryu, never mind a GD.
     
  16. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    What are the other 340-360 points on your template? You don't mention using any other skills at all, and you say you can't vet, so you're hoping for 240 points of your template to solo the abyss?
     
  17. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    The need to Heal is relevant to the amount of damage it takes. I kind of thought a higher DPS template would finish off the MOB before any serious damage was done to the V. Sending in or positioning the V between you and the MOB lets the V take Aggro. Now the Archer, in this context is free to blast away and shouldn't be being harassed by anything so ... well I think, the Chiv Heal will augment its own healing long enough to live through the encounter.

    With an Archer, I would think its main function is the Meat Shield Aggro getter with the added bonus of some additional DPS, while the Archer just stands there doing DPS.
     
  18. For the vollum you can use magery or close wounds on it if needed. I agree the fact all the MOB's in the Abyss target switch is a pain. Anyone healing seems to become the priority, wife used close wounds on my pet and was immediately targeted. Abyss is not tamer friendly and takes alot of planning for a tamer to do anything. But, like anything else there should be a solution, just not sure what exactly yet.
     
  19. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    lol, there's a difference between "a little difficult" and impossible, and if you vet fine in the abyss then you're either not fighting a variety of creatures or you're a liar.

    Alot of the new (I left after 3D was scrapped so anything after that is new to me) mobs have area damage and/or target switch when you vet/heal. Having all 70's resists doesn't seem to mean anything, or at least i still take damage equal to what i used to in crappy gear. Those fire demons for example will kill my tamer in a couple of hits/spells and since every spellcasting mob seems to love casting para it's hard to get away in time.

    My other skills are magery, music, prov, and disco.
    So, fighting one fire demon means nothing to prov on (other than my pet which doesn't stop it switching targets), my disco isn't high enough yet to work on them, and not having eval/med means my mana runs out fast if i try to heal from a distance...not that that is possible anyway because as soon as you cast a heal the demon targets you instead of the pet. It para's you and kills you...or me anyway.

    I don't expect to solo the abyss (I was with my wife anyway), but actually being able to fight my way into the place would be nice. The fire demons guard the only entrance i knew about at the time.

    I should have went with my mage tbh. With his 300 points in magery, eval, and med i haven't found anything he can't solo yet...and another 200 points in necro and SS means everything is a joke.
    Funny how an EV is alot more useful to a mage than a pet is to a tamer...
     
  20. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Tactics people, Tactics. (And I don't mean the skill).


    Just because you can't send in your pet and watch everything in its path fall to the ground spouting blood does not mean that SA is anti-tamer. My Cu Sidhe and I have been pretty much everywhere in the abyss. She is my favorite (but don't tell the others).

    Always keep the number of mobs on your pet to a manageable level. In some cases (say for example GD in the cavern of the discarded), the number your pet can handle will be much larger than say a Cu Sidhe in the fire spawn.

    Lure, Heal, Vet, that spellweaving spell that heals over time, invis, explosive pots, etc.

    I know that i had to change tactics when I first went into the abyss (a lesson learned the hard way btw), but it is possible, and even enjoyable to have the extra challenge.
     
  21. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Impossible? Nay, just more difficult. As I stated above, my Cu Sidhe and i can do just fine in the Abyss. I do not vet very much, but I have, many times without problems, mainly because i do not let my Cu Sidhe fight 4 fire daemons at once (Fire Daemons being one of the problem examples given).

    I have also set up my template with alternate sources of healing. Sure, it would be nice to have peace on my tamer, but as it is now, she can heal her pet with spellweaving, magic, or vet, and between her skills and suit, it takes me a good bit of work for her mana to drop to critical levels, and I mean casting non-stop flame strikes.

    taming
    animal lore
    vet
    magic
    spellweaving
    evaluate intel
    focus


    I can't wait to get her taming up and drop the taming jewels so that i can get some specialized equipment on her that i already have but can't currently fit, and complete her suit (everything on her suit is pretty sweet except for the resists).
     
  22. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    Create a character on Siege Perilous and do the quest to get into the Abyss. I'll solo the fire daemon mini-spawn for you with my hiryu, while you watch. Or any other mini-spawn.

    You're doing it wrong.

    ICQ me - 5285549

    I'll show you how to do it.

    Also, you might wanna get a hiryu with high wrestling instead of a cu. The cu's low fire resist might hurt it against a bunch of fire spawn.
     
  23. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    My Mage love's EV's (except when fighting dragons who seem to dispel without batting an eye), but when targeted by a fire ant, I can't switch the EV's target to that particular ant like I can my pet. Just this past weekend, my pet saved my butt half a dozen times just by switching targets and getting in one good chomp. :)
     
  24. Ibram Vale

    Ibram Vale Guest

    How odd to see a tamer cry off his profession in favor of magery....

    Aside from that small part (which amuses me greatly, have no doubt), you might notice that tamers who whine don't get much sympathy. There are good tamers and poor tamers, just as there are good mages, warriors, etc, and poor ones. Someone who is good at their profession will take along the tools to finish the job. My apologies that your Swiss Army Cu cannot complete the task at hand.

    Nor should any template have complete dominance over the entire game. There are places a warrior simply shouldn't go, that a mage shouldn't travel... and there should be places a tamer shouldn't wander into. Perhaps we've finally found a place where tamers cannot simply wander in and dominate. Target changing monsters are far overdue. Pet-killers for the new super-pets are a good thing. We can only hope and pray there will soon come a pet-free dungeon. Dare we dream?
     
  25. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    And the opposite of Tamers Dominating everything and everyone one is ....... Yes Tamers are dominated by everything and everyone.

    When the Chicken Mobs of UO One hit a Tamer AND the Greater Dragon will you be one of those that .... "What a shame they nerf'd ... bla and made UO so totally safe that you youngins have no idea what hard is"?
     
  26. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    Could you rephrase that Enigma?

    I have no clue what you meant.
     
  27. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Just for laughs, you may agree or not, that the assertion that one has no clue what some one else meant, can be either sincere, honest etc, OR it can be meant as antagonistic, insulting, demeaning, etc. :) On this and most anonymous boards, it mostly means the latter.

    Just think of a Sine Wave, no big deal, I may in fact be far better off with you not understanding anything I say.

    There are those that Think Tamers are a fun, viable template to play.

    There are those that Think Tamers are having way to much fun, and need to be made more miserable.

    As a Hypothetical scenario, What would you think, that if you were to say what your doing on SP, with a Hiryu, in the Abyss had some issues and I were to reply that you need to get with the program and become a better tamer by using my pet and my tactics?

    Are we being objective or are we being condescending / intolerant of what others find ... fun. There is of course an alternative that I did not enumerate.

    There is an axiom for all MMORPG's. It is a given that any template/class in any game, that feels it is left out, getting the short stick, cant play the game, will NEVER EVER advocate ways to improve their play style. They will ALWAYS advocate to bring every other play style down to their level of misery.

    A definition, Balance, It means the catch phrase that is to be used to NERF some play style to be less than or almost equal to ones own play style but certainly never equal to or greater than.
     
  28. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    I'm just about to head to bed, so this'll be quick, and sorry if I missed any points while skimming. I'll re-read tomorrow.

    I probably did come off a little condescending, but I also invited him to come with me. His tactics are not working. I'd think between his tactics and the entire current balance of UO, he'd have more success trying to change his tactics.

    I didn't say he had to change his pet, just that a different pet would probably be a little easier.
    But he doesn't find it fun. I was trying to help him find it fun again. My methods may be socially unpleasing, but my goal is noble.

    Edit: And I meant
    in the sincere meaning.
     
  29. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I did not get the feeling/understanding that any help was being asked for.

    I got the feeling that it was just a generalized complaint that one normally wants to make, when one finds out that one is going to need to change how one does things OR accept that one can not do some things that one would expect to be able to.

    My earlier reply was about an individual that touted balance, where every one could be effective. Ending with a wish for zones, places etc that intentionally, purposefully, deliberately excluded templates. It just struck me as a tad bit .... well more like the left hand signing one thing and the right hand signing another thing.

    Me I am OK with the Old Tank Mage, everyone is the same kind of balance.

    I am OK with the Rock>Scissor>Paper>Rock form of balance.

    We just don't seem to ever want it to be one or the other. We seemingly want to eat our cake and have it also OR more simply we some how think that both can be had at the same time. Good Luck with that magic trick.
     
  30. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    You're right, he didn't ask for help. It sounded like he was giving up. As abrasive and condescending as I come across (and I admit and accept that's how I often come across), I'm a helpful sort of fellow at heart.

    When somebody's feeling defeated, and I have a solution to their problem, I'll share it. If the way I deliver my helpfulness isn't conducive to actually helping, well, at least I tried, and he's no worse off than he was before.
     
  31. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    I forgot about this thread...

    Anyway, i don't expect my pet to run about killing everything in sight, or my cu sidhe to be able to fight everything. I used that situation and pet because at the time that's what had happened to make me write on the forum.
    But lately i often find that the first time i try to fight something "new" it is more difficult with my tamer than my mage (I rarely play my other characters so they don't even have good gear yet) because of area spells and target switching. I keep feeling that tamers aren't supposed to be able to heal their pets anymore.

    But i see there are people saying they vet just fine. How do you vet when fighting area casters/target switchers? I try to get close to my pet and i die. If i die then my pet will likely die too.

    @LordDrago. You say you do fine with your cu sidhe because you don't fight four fire demons at the same time. I don't know if they have been nerfed or anything since the SA release, but i was talking about two cu sidhes fighting two fire demons. Both pets died fast. Actually we did manage to eventually kill one of the demons and finished off the other with both pets just surviving on magery heals....but we often had to run away and invis each other to avoid the demon killing us.
    We don't have the best cu sidhes but i'm pretty sure they aren't too bad either.

    @Wulf2k. Thanks for the invite but tbh i hardly play UO anymore and only play because my wife does (stops her nagging if i help her do stuff :p ) so i'll decline your offer.

    But no, i wasn't asking for help in the OP...nor do i give up.
    I'm just sick of people complaining that tamers are overpowered when i have always found that magery, eval, and med are the most powerful combination in UO.
    And while giving mobs more abilities makes for a tougher, more enjoyable game for most "classes" it just makes tamers weaker. Pets are melee fighters. Warriors can heal themselves while fighting in melee...if they couldn't they would be pointless as they'd die very fast.
     
  32. Very strange to hear a tamer complain about other professions being overpowered. Fact is, it's still a very powerful skill, but the days of just saying "all kill" and collecting loot are over. I have a fully developed disco tamer, along with fully developed bard/mage, fully developed ABC archer, fully developed samipre and nearly fully developed Necro Mage. The disco tamer is still the best choice for many situations, but it's no longer the dominant choice for all situations. Personally, I'm happy about that (if you want my opinion, ABC archer is probably king of the moment).

    As others have mentioned, how you build your template matters. 120 taming/lore/vet is rarely the best choice unless your objective is to max out your stable slots. 105-115 is sufficient depending on your skill and playstyle, and additional points can be gained from your armor suit, etc. Those points can be spent elsewhere and you'll have a more powerful template overall. However, if your objective is instead to say "hey, look at me, I'm a 360 tamer", then accept the consequences of maxing out those skills and stop whining about it.

    Also as others have mentioned, tactics matter. It's no longer a matter of sending in your Cu or GD then finding a nice spot to stand and vet. Sometimes that works. Other times you need to move. Watching the spawn you direct them into is always helpful.

    Combine the two ideas - proper template construction & good tactics - and you can move to the next step of killing things effectively. Saw a combination necro/tamer go wild in Cavern of discarded with his Cu tanking and him spamming wither. Seen provo tamers get excellent results. I have a disco tamer and it's definitely the best in certain situations over all other templates.

    But, if your idea of taming consists of 3 skills and one tactic (standing next to your dragon and vetting), then yes, they did make things harder for you. I've solo'd everything in the Abyss (run an active imbuing business so I need the parts), and tamers can do well basically everywhere. Just gotta figure out which of your skills & and tactics apply in each situation. A GD can easily take down 2-3 discorded fire demons, or pretty much anything else down there (not including peerless of course). If you don't go the disco route, a fully trained mage/tamer can certainly heal fast enough for a GD to deal with 2-3 fire demons, pretty much anything else down there. Benefits of a provo tamer are obvious with more than one foe. If you don't like that then an archer tamer can certainly do enough damage to take down 2-3 fire demons. Have a friend with a stealth tamer that accomplishes amazing things but honestly I don't know the tactics that go along with that.

    Bottom line, I feel like they addressed one of the biggest ongoing complaints about tamers - that it takes no skill to just say "all kill". Taming is still very very powerful - probably still the most powerful PVM skill in the game (with bard or archer skills competing depending on the situation) but now you have to think about the battle rather than just diving in and doing the exact same thing against all foes. To me, that's a plus.
     
  33. maroite

    maroite Guest

    It takes as much skill for me to push 4 buttons as it does for me to push 1 and guess what, other templates are merely more button pushes.

    Bush archer, Consecrate, EoO, DF, Spam Lightning Strike till dead, rinse repeat.

    How much more skill is needed to do that than to say all kill and heal a pet?

    Joking aside, not much. ;) Which is why I don't see why people complain about "all kill."

    Then you can look at a samurai. Same thing, only spam whirlwind.

    Mages, cast EV and spam some AoE spell or invis and let your EV do all the work.

    Staying away from the mobs? Tamers have to do this as well, because our pets don't have taunts.

    Fixed. ;)
     
  34. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    Actually the character in question has been a 360 tamer for a long time. In fact i think she was amongst the first legendary tamers on Europa, and definately the first in the Europa Rangers Council.
    But that was back when legendary taming was an accomplishment.
    So that's why i won't drop her taming skills.

    But i've changed her template to include music, disco (which still needs trained), and prov...and i'm using skill jewelry...
     
  35. Salya Sin

    Salya Sin Guest

    There were so many things in this post that I wanted to address... but I'm not one to jump into a post and start an argument... usually anyway. And for the record... I have played so many different templates... and I never complain about any of them... they all have their uses and most often liking or disliking one is personal...

    That said!

    Are you nuts? What actual skill does ANY template in this game really take?

    For my swords/ljacker.... I double click the mobs bar... run up while the computer hacks away... macro bandage-self as needed... lots of skill there. OH and there are all those lovely new macros for targeting... that's really making the dexer a difficult skill. For the record... that's 120's and 115's across the board here done in less than a year of reg. play.

    For my mage... Ohhh... spellcasting EV's and invis and g-heal and ebolt... wow... you're right... I'm so skillful I even GM'd inscription in a week to up my spell damage. Thats 115's and 120's too... done in about a 2 weeks of real hammering. I'm so skillful!

    My majestic mule... the god of skillful... I gm'd tinker in 5 days, carpentry in 5 and tailor to gm in 6... all I had to do was buy the resources. WOW... talk about skill... I just use the handy little menu to make max and I am queen of Napa.

    Hell... I've hit 70 begging in 3 days... and will most likely GM it before the 15th Nov.

    A tamer on the other hand... you are so right... No skill to say all Kill... forget the fact that I am a 6 year vet and my tamer has been active for all those 6 years and is only 120 with mods. HOURS AND HOURS of work... and I'm still not done. Lore... vet... tame... still going... still building... and all those pets, it takes forever to get a decent one or one of specific color... can't buy a rare or colored or high stat anything in UO... but you are right... tamers just hitting all kill... because nothing else goes into taming.

    NOT to mention the fact that you are now splitting your attention. With every other template... you are watching YOUR bar... YOUR aggros... the toon does what YOUR mouse tells it... you don't get on one day and have to kickstart your sword or spellbook because you let it hack or cast too long between feedings. AND if your pet dies... FYI... it loses skill pts... do you do that on ANY character when you die? So all that hard work has to be REDONE when you hit a rather nasty situation.

    When I switched to actively playing my tamer... IE got high enough to be able to really play her and not just click tame and follow for hours on end... it was difficult to swap that mentality. I'd either forget to watch my own bar... so busy commanding the pet or watching it's bar and die... or visa versa. There is a trick to it.. and GOD FORBID your pet refuse a command... and you have to then think quickly on how to keep it and yourself alive. No skill to say all kill... you should be forced to play only tamers for 3 months... solo.
     
  36. Yeah, I can definitely appreciate that it's really difficult to get to 120 taming, and that it seems to be an integral part of your character and perhaps role play. I'm all for that, I think it's cool. Believe me, I understand how time consuming and boring (if not difficult) it is to get to that level of taming. But I also see that you realize, from your message here, that you understand that going 360 taming is not necessarily (in fact, it's just not period) the way to hunt effectively. I think we're in agreement about my point that if you choose to have a 360 tamer (and you've got great reasons), then you're maximizing your effectiveness for anything other than stable slots.
     
  37. I can see that you're missing the point entirely. First, I play a lot as a tamer, don't need to do so for 3 months straight to understand how it compares to other templates. I can also see, from your description of how you play your swords/LJ, that you don't completely grasp how warriors are being played these days. If what you do is run up to a MOB, double click and try to heal yourself, you're severely limited in the type of beasts that you can handle. A truly powerful PVM warrior these days has to have some combination of bushido, necromancy, chivalry, parry and weapons skills.

    Try this hypothetical on for size. Can the swords/LJ you described stand in front of a Greater Dragon, toe to toe, and kill it? I'll answer for you, the answer is no. No matter what combination of equipment and tactics you use, the answer is no. However, I have a friend who's been training a tamer for about 3 weeks. Vet and lore are around 100, and with jewelry he can handle a tamed greater dragon. He can, without much trouble or danger, kill greater dragons on his own. That's the difference between the warrior you describe, and a no-skill tamer. Now, a sampire with necromancy, chivalry, bushido & parry, a 100m armor suit, 30m weapon and proper tactics can kill a GD as effectively as a 3 week old tamer with a free Greater Dragon that someone wants to get rid of, but therein lies the real difference.

    Or let me give another example. I've built ultra-high end suits for each of my 5 combat characters (disco/tamer, bard/mage, necro/mage, sampire, abc archer), and the only one where I can fit a big slug of luck onto is the tamer. All of the other ones have requirements in the armor suits (LMC, mana regen, resists, stamina, etc.) in order for them to be effective. Tamer? Not so much so I can throw 1800 luck into her suit. If I did that with my sampire or ABC archer, they would die. Fast. What this is is a reflection of margin of error available to each type of character. Tamers have huge margins of difficulty and hence are easier to play. Sampire for example, if you're standing in front of a beast that hits for 70 points per shot, one wrong button push and you're a gonner. You start confidence or evasion a moment too early or late, you miss a lightning strike, or god forbid you make a mistake building your suit or selecting your weapon and you run out of mana, and you're dead. Tamer, make a mistake, usually no big deal.

    You seem to be hung up on the amount of time and effort it takes to gain points in different skills. Sure, it takes loads of time to get to 120 taming, but what's the point? 120 taming doesn't make you more effective in combat situations. And before you call my knowledge about hunting solo as a tamer in question again, I've solo'd just about everything in the game that anybody has ever talked about on these message boards. I solo'd the harbinger 5 times in the past week as a tamer (20 times as a bard, but that's a different story). I understand what it takes to be a tamer, and as I mentioned in a prior post, it's probably still the most powerful PVM skill in the game. But, I have a stable of top-notch templates to choose from, pretty much all of them, and it's refreshing that 'tamer' isn't always the dominant choice for all situations.
     
  38. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Luke,

    I appreciate were your coming from and has been pointed out the "Lets do the basic thing" is how a number of templates are played. Not saying it is great wonderful etc. It is just how they are played and Tamers have NO monopoly on that, my guess is it is rather evenly distributed.

    As I take the jest of your point of view is that the player needs to be more involved in the playing of the encounter. This is something I value, hold to be the key to being able to eek out the most entertainment etc.

    BUT :)

    While it may not have been your intent to demean, deminish a Tamer encounter of send in the pet and vet. It is the effectively what your doing.

    Let us say, that I spend the first 4 months that the Greater Dragons are in game, learning how to tame them, what they can do, what are their limits and how best to use them to achieve my goal, which is to have the most entertainment value by pushing the upper limits on the Mob's that I can solo defeat. Note this does NOT mean Own Dominate etc, it means I can encounter them and win ... mostly ... well some of the time.

    So far this is falling exactly into the hated "All Kill" and Vet model so many people despise.

    BUT that model is by no means a single play style any more so than it is to say a warrior clicks on the attack and goes to the mob and heals what ever. OR said another way, they are both over simplifications of what the play style CAN BE.

    Now back to the story,

    So I spend the next 4 months adjusting the Combination's of Stats, Resists and skills to give me the optimum Greater Dragons that match my Tamers Skills of Vet, Stealth, Greater Heals etc. Such that I can be as effective as I BELIEVE I can be to achieve my goal.

    Now then I spend a year of hitting all Felucca and Trammel Greater Dragon Spots, twice daily, to get the best two Greater Dragons I can get, 2 on each account (2 accounts). Now truly after a year of this the 4 GD's are ... in my opinion, without peer's and excel at what I want them to do. Now I begin the process of finding that Upper Limit Mob, that I can take down, with MY involvement at 100% in the encounter.

    To say that I am just doing an "All Kill" and vet/heal is a gross oversimplification.

    To suggest that MY 100% involvement in the encounter is NOT equal to other templates 100% involvement in the encounter is NOT going to gain any agreement from me, just because you say it isn't.

    From my point of view, it is certainly no less than other templates and potentially more so than other templates. As I take the time to completely, research the encounter, stage the encounter, making everything be to my requirements to give me the best chance I can have at wining the encounter. That alone can take considerable amounts of time and effort. And I will often times die quite a number of times learning everything that needs to be done to achieve this optimal setting.

    Now comes the Great Nerf of Greater Dragons, that was patched in with the SA patch and ... well all that effort is just reduced to .... well things I have already achieved previously.

    And in the end run, the question is what was the justification for the nerf in PvM. Why was this required.

    None of this is being specifically argumentative with you, as I said, I believe your saying / advocating people should be evolved and active in the encounter. I absolutely do agree, that, in my opinion, certainly does make the encounter so much richer, tangible, exciting etc.

    I am pointing out that we may be in disagreement as to the "All Kill" Vet/Heal is a slam dunk NOT being involved in the encounter.
     
  39. Salya Sin

    Salya Sin Guest

    Luke...

    If you notice... I did imply that my templates were maxed... which means I have far more than just swords and ljack. Parry... yes... that template has that too... and yes... I can go toe to toe with a G Dragon... so can my mage... and so can my tamer... who has peace/music. It's easier on my mage... My mule.. alas... would be fried and served up with a side of giant beetle.

    My point was that anyone assuming that "all kill" is nothing more than a text on a screen and requires no skill is ridiculous! And the time you put into earning the ability to say all kill is harder than any other in this game... Somehow you having/playing a tamer and still making that statement makes me wonder what you do with your tamer...

    I didn't miss the "point" of your comment... perhaps I oversimplified my answer... and the time it takes to run that template to 120's is an important statement as it earns you the right to take the big, bad pets out and actually control them... 120 is just a number... but boy it does make taming Cu's a bit easier and I control my Dread Mare better than the guy that kept it low on the taming... I'd just like to do so without the use of mods... which I can do on all my other characters... easily.

    The illustrious Sampire has far more of an edge on mobs and is the new "uber" template... Anyone who has done the Tokuno spawn knows that a GD will die taking you with it... if not properly handled and monitored... meaning... SKILL as a tamer, experience as a player... I've watched many a Sampire roll in and just slaughter. And how much skill does it take to use Necro and just wither the hell out of everything.

    AND have you tried to take the new yellow crystal spawn on a tamer? My god man... if that doesn't take skill to keep you and your poor pet alive.. WOW...

    I'm by no means trying to downplay other templates... each to his own and this game is about what you get out of it... what you choose to do and how you choose to play... but the anti-tamer crap is just getting old. And the point you apparently missed... from someone who decided an old-style dexer was better than a solo-peerless hack and slasher... was that a Tamer takes no less skill than any other in this game... perhaps the sarcasm of my template discriptions missed you entirely... and it's sad that this game has become so much about skill pts and numbers and who is overpowered and whine/complain/I hate this or that... I miss the days when bosses couldn't be solo'd...

    OH and for the record... I get far more loot on my mage... but enjoy the "skill" it takes to play my tamer more... :danceb:
     
  40. Wonton fooey

    Wonton fooey Guest

    Most of the new monsters popping out of production now are biased towards tamers. Mages, Archers, and Melee chars can solo most of the crap in SA while pets get hit for triple the Dmg. Its rediculous. Just because some PvP morons complain about Greater Dragons in PvP the developers slam tamers. Nerfing Gdrags and making monsters that kill pets in a matter of seconds.
     
  41. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    I had no idea that the Slasher of Veils was "most of the new monsters."

    My pets do just fine everywhere else.
     
  42. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

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    Pobrecito...
     
  43. edda

    edda Guest

    Logging out and back in didn't work?

    I have archery on my tamer.. and yes I get frustrated at times, but its usually a pretty good template. Sometimes I wish I had stealth though :wall:
     
  44. When you die, if you log out straight away, your pet gets auto stabled.

    You can re log to bring it back to you.

    The new pet commands that were implemented some time ago make it very easy to call your pet back. Unless you leave it on 'guard' all the time. Try adding 'All Stop' to your 'All Follow Me' macro and it will ensure it isn't in 'guard' mode when you try to call it.

    Not your Tamer, you, you couldn't do it because you didn't know what you were doing. Tamers work fine.

    There are ways to deal with area damage so you can still Vet. Theres also no reason you couldn't have got on your Cu and taken it off to let it heal up. (& before someone says it, no you shouldn't 'have' to, but if you go out on a half assed character then you do what you can) I think your post completely detracted from your cause, anyone can go out poorly setup and die, it doesn't make them a weak template.
     
  45. Wonton fooey

    Wonton fooey Guest

    Slasher of veils, Stygian Dragon, numberous other monsters wondering around, and the new Giant Turkeys wich are impossible for a single tamer to take on. but all other classes can solo.
     
  46. carma234

    carma234 Guest

    My personal opinion on this was that tamer skill sets in general sacrificed are ability to pvp in order to dominate pve.

    Take any of the archer, dexxer, mage, whatever templates you described throw them into a pvp situation and see how well they do in comparison to a tamer.

    On the other hand there are tamers in pvp right now but they are not regular tamers they have skills and gear focused around pvp and so they sacrifice in pve in order to do there thing in pvp.

    For example my discord tamer would never set foot in a pvp environment without many many bodies between me and the reds, but i would willingly pick a fight with nearly any mob in the game given 5 minutes to prepare.
     
  47. Wonton fooey

    Wonton fooey Guest

    Taming is one of the hardest skills in the game to work up. You cant just sit in front of luna beating on a golem for a few hours and be GM at it. You have to work for it. The fact that you have to work for your skill gains should mean a better pay out in the end. They have made it so easy to gain all other skills first with the 99% poison Golem and now you have a 100% poison resist spider. There is no risk in gaining your skills. Hardly any time is needed to GM a new char. Its a lot harder to gain when your forced to tame a dragon just to get .1 every four dragons you tame if youre lucky.
     
  48. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    #1: My Tamer is not even close to being trained up, however, thanks to jewelry, she is quite playable.

    #2: Normally, my Tamer is my favorite character to play

    With those two points out of the way, I will give some leeway to the OP as they have only recently come back to UO, but seriously folks, I am getting a bit tired of the whining about the "nerf" to tamers. Gee, a couple of creatures in the game eat up my pets. Big whoop.

    I will let you in on a secret: you are allowed several different characters, and not all of them have to be tamers. I have a sword pally, and archer pally, a thief, my tamer, a mage, and a couple of crafters.

    Yeah, the Turkeys whacked my Tamer pretty good. Hello Archer.

    I bet your tamer made out pretty well against the dark fathers (at least I hope so, because I did, and as anyone who plays with me can attest to, I suck). So our tamers might not be able to solo every monster in the game. Deal with it and get on with playing.

    By the way, you can take any argument for or against any fighting template in UO, change out the template name and a few other words, and the same argument will apply to any fighting template.
     
  49. Wonton fooey

    Wonton fooey Guest

    Its getting old that the 10-20 people around the Yew gate ***** about things so much they get nerfed. If one template seems to have the upper hand the PvPers ***** about it until it gets changed. All I ever used my tamer for was PvM but its getting more and more difficult to do so. A lot of new monsters have auras on them or simply change target on whim. Makes it extremely hard to vet. I have many other chars too. Ive never had my dragon hit something for 200+ points but my archer and fencer can roll the Dmg out all day long. I dont mind a nerf in PvP play but they are slamming tamers in PvM too. As the player I should be able to play the character I want anywhere in the game. I shouldnt be forced to play a certain template just because someone else doesnt like the one I do.
     
  50. carma234

    carma234 Guest

    Having thought about this further since my last post, i feel that the game pve balance wise isn't really that bad, sure we are limited in certain things we can kill but so are warriors, mages, archers, etc etc.

    In the end it is up to the player change your template to suit the situation, Like mine it suits my play style but i also recognize there are certain things i can't do with it so i don't. With that same reasoning when it comes to all things in this game, either change your template so that you can kill the things you want or don't kill them.

    True dexxers and such can solo many of the powerful enemies in the game but do you think they could have done that with there original base skills? I don't think so. The players who kill these things changed the way they played so that they could kill the things that they wanted, and they ended up better for it. If you not willing to do the same then you have no right to complain.

    Just my thoughts based on my playstyle and that of others i have met and hunted with in game and further consideration upon my last post.