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SA Beta/Imbuing: Are the weights suppose to be in place? Bad News.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Bombastic Fail, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=282


    From what I understood; since the "other plan" was scrapped; the "weight" intensity on items should of been scrapped too right? Because if it hasn't been removed; Imbuing isn't great at all.

    A (NPC store bought) bow can only have the following..

    50% Lower Defense - 130% (Because of a 1.3 Weight Ratio)
    50% Velocity - 130% (Because of a 1.3 Weight Ratio)
    50% Lightning - 140% (Because of a 1.4 Weight Ratio)
    25% Damage Increase - 50% (Because of 1.0 Weight Ratio)

    Total: 450%.

    And THAT IS IT.

    Thats right. No Balanced. No SSI. Nothing else.

    This is a MAXED OUT Modded Item under the weight system. So again; with the weights the way they are currently, it makes Imbuing still rather useless; and not even Sub-Par compared to runics.

    :bored: Thoughts & Comments?? :bored:
     
  2. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    im confused on what the maxes are.. someone needs to make a weapon calculator in Xcel.... hint hint..

    say SSI, its a 1.1 so 100% would be 110 points, is that 60ssi?
    HLD is 1.3 so 100% would be 130 points? thats 50?
    HML is 1 so 50 would be 100 points?
    HSL is 1 also so 50 is 100 points?

    so a crossbow that is gm made could be made with
    40 ssi, 50 hml, 50 hsl, 50 hld, 40 di pretty easy? how many points would i have left?
    i think imbuing is going to ROCK for my archer.

    i noticed lower ammo cost in that list.. can that be put on bows directly???
    what is the cap on that?

    i cant wait till SA comes out
     
  3. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    I tried crafting bows today and this is the best I could imbue. I attempted to add more mods or make the existing ones higher and I received a message that I can't do that because it would render the item "unstable". I thought we could imbue higher values onto crafted items...

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Noooo LoL!!

    Go here.

    http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=282


    Whatever the caps are.

    SSI = 30
    Damage Inc = 50
    Hit Spell = 50
    Hit Lower Attack/Def = 50


    So you take the cap.. Hit Lower Defense For Example..

    [Hit Lower Defense 1.3]

    50 Hit Lower Defense = 100%;
    But since it is "WEIGHTED" as 1.3 it is actually 130%.

    Meaning you have used 130% of the allowed 450% which equals 320% left.
     
  5. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    So much for saving those Oak's to make exceptional one mod balanced bows to imbue.

    also, it it possible to imbue mods that are craft only? such as velocity & balanced?

    also, again ;x can you imbue reptile slayer & dragon slaying on one weapon and pwn superdragons? :eek:
     
  6. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    i think i figured out how to put together an xcel sheet with ratios and points. i just need all the caps to the properties.. like SSI and DI and stuff.
     
  7. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    ive seen 60 ssi on stuff, isnt that the cap?
     
  8. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Yes to Velocity & Balanced; but only on Bows (Velocity being a 1.3 weight mod; Balanced Being a 1.0) and yes you can put 2 hit spells on them. (Like they can be crafted)

    And no to the 2x slayers. One slayer per wepaon, they over write each other.
     
  9. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    No; the "CAPS" for imbuing are considered the highest things you can get on items VIA runic crafting.

    Like 50 damage inc (not counting special ML recipes and arms lore), 30 SSI, 50 Lower Attack/Defense, 50 Hit Spell, 15 XXX Resists (25 I believe on bows, and by resist I mean fire, cold, etc.). Things like those.
     
  10. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    is there a website that has every property that can be added by imbuing and what its cap is and if it can be only added to armour or weapons or both?

    im curious as to some of the properties.. like lower ammo cost.
    and some are hit lower defense those are weapon based but also lower defense armour based? whats the cap on the armour ones?? do they stack?
    if you put 50 hld on your weapon, and 25 hld on your armour do you have 75 hld?

    they need to rewrite this page
    http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=282

    to include in the table, w for weapon property, a for armour property then X/XX for each peice, total stacked up.

    this would be helpfull..
     
  11. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    i found what im looking for, but there are a few things i dont understand.

    what is this..
    "creature resists"

    and is this..
    "Damage Convert"

    and is this
    "Refreshment" STAM REGEN?

    and this?
    "Regeneration" HP REGEN?

    and this
    "Splintering Blade" never heard of it before...
     
  12. EDA_GL

    EDA_GL Journeyman
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    Didn't they give a special bump to the 'uber powerful' alter thing for imbuing?

    You had a better chance at either putting stuff on, or unraveling it?

    Please don't flame me too much, I'm not even going to play with this new crap till it comes out.
     
  13. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
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    You have missed the part:

    Intensity caps ....
    - 450% on a store bought item
    - 500% on an exceptional crafted item
     
  14. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    ok, check my math.. this should make things a tad easier..
    at least it will for me.
    just put the desired number in the # tab and it should!! calculate the % and give you the point totals. lol.


    remove the txt part..

    i left out the ones i dont know.
    im also not sure but HSL and HML was said to be capped at 100%.

    feel free to make this better, i suck at xcel.
     
  15. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    You can, when they're exceptional. That's not, it gets the same allowance as store bought
     
  16. Bombastic Fail

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    BUT!!

    With Exceptional weapons you get an automatic 35%-40% damage increase; HENCE cutting into your 500% caps, making it either 430% (if 35% Damage Inc, NO Arms Lore) or 420% (40 Damage Inc, GM Arms Lore).

    Hence making npc items more viable for Imbuing.


    BUT! Regardless; I feel the "weights" should be lifted because if you apply the "weights" to existing runic items, some would have as high as 650%-700% totals, when imbuing gets a measly 450%-500%??

    Example: Bow (Already Enhanced When Crafted with Ash) with Auto 40 Damage Inc; 40 SSI, 40+ Hit Lower Def, 40+ Hit Spell/Velocity, Balanced..

    Or a Weapon: 40 Damage Inc, 30 SSI, 40+ Hit Spell, 40+ Lower Def, HCI/DCI 12+ or Hit Lower Attack 40+.

    Not worth the money to train & work it up Imbuing in my opinion when you look at it in that way;
    && Spending the $$ on runics is obvisiously still the better way to go..
    (And COINCIDENTLY, Letting scripters of BODs/Heartwood win).
     
  17. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Wow more crying even with the current imbuing setting?
    Let's see

    40DI (80%)
    40 Fireball (112%)
    40 Velocity (104%)
    Balanced (100%)
    30SSI (100%)

    496 Intensity, means you can bump 40DI to 42DI

    Ash enhances it to 40SSI if you got balls.

    There you go BALANCE & LIGHTING & VELOCITY & DAMAGE INCREASE & SWING SPEED.

    Now, go on test center, use your heartwood kit with 100000 charges, and make one like the one I imbued as above, and see how many charges have you burnt, then cry with a straight face if you think imbuing is still worthless.

    You are trying to dig the caps, there's good reasons why certain mods are weighted. And if you are smart enough, you can imbue a bow almost as godly as something that you might never get with 2000 heartwood runic kits.

    Play it smart dude, and THINK how you can use the current tool and extract the best stuff you could under the restriction. If you get the bow shown aboe rightnow on ATL, you can sell it for 100+ million easy. And it will cost me about 2 to 5 mill depending on retry rate to make it.

    Look at my bow above, and that's the secret to get an unber bow with pure imbuing on GM exp item. And if people all imbue the way I did, you might as well throw your heartwood kits out of the window. It will take you at least couple hundred(if not thousands) of heartwood kit charges to make one(1) runic crafted bow indentical to WarUltima's cookie cutter imbued bow.

    Hope my cookie cutter bow template would help out some of those confused people out there thinking that imbuing is still underpowered. You are welcome to copy the built and play around with it. For example, you can have HLD in place of velocity if you dont want, or Hit chance. If you go with hit chance/HLD no velocity route, you can bump up the 40DI even more.

    Here I will also list the indentical bow for reference that "could" be made with heartwood kits, assuming you have unlimited supply of those kits.

    A CAPPED OUT HEARTWOOD RUNIC BOW:
    40 DI
    50 Hit Fireball
    50 Hit Velocity
    Balanced
    30SSI (make with ash you get 40SSI).

    Look at this bow that would cost you 2 trillion gold to make, and look at my cookie cutter bow that anyone can just imbue. Hope you can *think* and understand how powerful imbuing already is.
     
  18. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Please remember you can't make with special materials and then imbue. (not aimed at anyone inparticular, I've read several posts forgetting that criteria)
    For anyone who's interested I've added the imbuing weights (as they are currently) to the magic effects table: http://uo.stratics.com/php-bin/show_content.php?content=30739
    I didn't include the 'splintering blade' entry, since it's not yet in game and I'm not sure what it will be on.
     
  19. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    SSI is 1.1 Weight by the way; hence making your SSI 110%.

    BUT!!

    Note though; A heartwood only gives 4 mods.

    You failed to make a comparsion to a Valorite Runic weapon. Which as you said; can be like this..

    Let's use the Leafblade Of Ease; For Example..

    MAX With Perfect Mods From Valorite Runic Hammer..

    40 Damage - Comes Free (80% Weight In Imbuing)
    UBWS - Comes Free (150% Weight In Imbuing)

    30SSI (110% Weight In Imbuing)
    50 Lighting (140% Weight In Imbuing)
    50 Lower Defense (130% Weight In Imbuing)
    50 Lower Attack (110% Weight With Imbuing)
    15 Hit Chance Increase (130% Weight With Imbuing)

    Grand Totaling: 850% Total Weight With Imbuing


    Now; As you said; it could take TONS of runics to do so; sure. But, when comparing the 450% / 500% caps of Imbuing to runics; it really shows you how the weights make Imbuing very much less desirable && not worth as much.

    Now; I am not saying you script skills or w/e; this isnt my intention at all.

    So with that said; how long do you it is going to take you to get GM Imbuing; get a 120 Scroll, LEGEND that && spending all the money/time/resources to get that done, THEN adding up how much it will cost to make the "bow" you posted as far as resources & money goes?

    Just pointing that
     
  20. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I guess if you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, imbuing is useless. However it was my understanding that imbuing was intended to allow good items to be adjusted to be better items, not to create uber items from basic tat. The results are going to be limited by your starting point.
     
  21. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    I think we are forgetting one thing. Runics give random properties, you can burn a whole Val hammer and get nothing useful. Where as with Imbuing you choose the mods....I think it is balanced, because you can get better stuff with high end runics BUT it is up to chance, with Imbuing you can make stuff not as good (still incredibly good tho), but you choose the properties.
     
  22. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Best british quote eva!!!!!
     
  23. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Yes ssi is 110 that means I would have to drop a few points in Damage Increase and still get my cookie cutter. And a bow of that value can sell for at least 100mill EASY.

    And you failed to mention it will take thousands of val hammer and heartwood kit to get the item exactly you want.

    So you are looking as 10 billion cost to make a runic at exactly your need compare to a few million in ingredients to imbue something 90% as good. You get the idea?
     
  24. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Note that WarUltima's example Heartwood runic bow is exceptional (that's where the 5th property/40% DI came from).
     
  25. Saris

    Saris Guest

    OK imbuing is not gonna make me craft weapons. Rings and crap for my tamer mage yes but for a mele char the whole "its gonna break someday" renders most items short term.
    edit "ok well certain weps, consdier a -20 mage with SC, HLA, DCI 15 with the rest in who cares, would be uber for a few of my chars, that dont even swing them much, thus making thme last longer"


    I repair my ornate 3 times a day if I play alot, why would I want an axe or a bow that will last a few months.


    You can not create wep the same as a valorite hammer produces, getting the perfect wep with a valorite hammer is not easy, ive burned 5 total on axes kept 3 axes. None are perfect.

    I feel its a good ballance, runics can be better in most cases, you cant make runic rings though.

    Seen crazy rings and braclets come from imbuing, but I dont see why you want to get a 5 property all at 100% un weighted, that would make the best of the best runic crap obsolete.

    Its not going to replace runic items, its gonna to suplement them.
     
  26.  
  27. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    This is the point that everyone has been trying to get across.

    I copied the weight table onto the magic effects table this morning. Actually I was surprised at how few were greater than 1
    http://uo.stratics.com/php-bin/show_content.php?content=30739
     
  28. Fink

    Fink Guest

    This is not a comment against you, aaron, but I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a game that requires you to do math homework.
     
  29. Well, this is kinda what all MMO's have turned into. AOS turned UO into a numbers game. You lose a lot of the awe and wonder when it comes down to the numbers, but this seems to be what the power gamers want and have won.
     
  30. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    There are 30 POSSIBLE weapon properties.
    And you want the EXACT 4 plus GMLore bonus 40DI to even come close to a cookie cutter bow I have demostrated.

    I can pull out some calculus and give you the exact numbers but since people on Uhall usually dont want to talk about something that's true yet against their self caring benefits. I will just mak it simple, the chance to roll the 4 exact mods is 1 in "many many" thousands. And take the chance which is already 1 in thousands, and they will sometimes made non-exceptional, making the chance of getting JUST THE MODS + 40DI Slimmer.

    Now that's take the slim little chance of getting those mods and roll the intensity which goes anywhere from 50 to 100. This means a heartwood kit might roll you a 26 hit fireball + 28 velocity and crappy ssi. This just turned your super slim chance ultra uber slim. You will be spending hundreds of million in kits just so you can have more entries to hit the lottery. The kit would have to roll the exact 4 mods out of 30, then roll at least 80% intensity for 3 of those mods, AND you have to make the roll for exceptional.

    Now with imbuing you can make something that's ALMOST as good and it will ALWAYS BE THAT GOOD NO MATTER HOW MANY OF THEM YOU PRODUCE. It's a 100% chance to hit and cost you some ingredients that will be WELL UNDER hundreds of millions.

    Val hammer is something else, it's at least 20 times more rare than any heartwood kits. Even with higher capped intensity level you would STILL HAVE TO HIT THE JACKPOT ON MODS ROLLING. The chance of getting anything exactly you want is still super slim.

    If what you are asking is to make imbuing a UNLIMITED CHARGE VAL HAMMER that lets you pick all your mods and can make those mods all at MAX UNWEIGHTED INTENSITY, you are out of your mind.

    Imbuing is so amazingly powerful already you cant be serious.

    Also what if I need a ring with EXACTLY 1/3casting, +15 magery, +15 DCI, and +20 LRC? I have mainly two options. 1. Imbue it in and it will be on my finger in a few minutes, 2. Farm monsters until my grandson becomes a grandpa and chances are I will get something like 1/2 +12 magery 11 dci and 17 lrc.

    By saying runics can have a 1 in 1000000000 chance making something better than what you get from imbuing therefore imbuing is underpowered is very very ignorant.

    I have to mention this again. Imbuing underpower QQing reminds me of the words a wise guy once told me.

    Humans are greedy.
    Give them a fish they want a whale. Give them a whale and they want two. :coco:
     
  31. I think you mean Algebra.
     
  32. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Having 500% on an exceptional is all well and good, but really you're losing out because exceptional weapons get damage increase already on them. What if I don't want damage increase on my weapon? Yes, I'm given the option to imbue it down to 1%, but I still can't add another property on in its place, thus negating the percentage bonus from exceptional weapons. If we were given the option to remove properties completely from exceptional items, this would be a great thing (and encourage more crafters to make things instead of go out and buy normal weapons as a starting point).
     
  33. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    While you may call Calculus algebra, the calculation done to calculate the exact chance to get 4 specific value (mods) from 30 different values is part of calculus. Factor in the chance for the sub values for each of those mods (intensity raging from 50 to 100). The the exceptional chance. The only way to find out the exact chance is use a few calculus tachniques or use algebra calculations and repeat it thousands of times and add them together...

    I think you have little misunderstanding about calculus. But yes you can call it algebra if you want. It's just faster and easier to do with calculus since human cant do algebra at multi-GHz frequency like a computer processor. :thumbsup:
     
  34. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    Hate to burst your bubble, but most everything requires math.
     
  35. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    There was a discussion on this issue on closed beta forum. A few testers suggested a way to "turn off" exceptional damage increase bonus while a few suggested giving it as a free mod (thus even more powerful imbuing).

    The cookie cutter built on archery weapons is done with the current design where 40DI indeed takes a mod and intensity. But if the 40DI is not counted against total intensity, it will make imbuing 5mods + DI which can easily defeat heartwood runics.

    I am OK with it either way. Depending on how DEVs wants to make it, and their intentions weather to kill heartwood runics or not. Personally I think the 40DI is ok since most dexers would perfer it especially 40DI means 160% intensity if they want to get it from jewleries. 100% intensity Damage Increase = 50DI on weapons / 25DI on jewleries. Removing DI would be more flavoring towards mages which is what I am mainly. :thumbsup:

    Cant wait to imbue my SC, MW-20, Hit Fireball, 25DCI or 30ssi mage weapon. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I'd have to agree. A successful game like World of Warcraft uses intensive math calculations on their mods and stats that they refer to "ratings" which is ever changing depending on your character's level and your opponent's level.

    Intensity weights (IW) are as simple as straight multiplication.
    Total intensity(TI) is nothing but addition.
    IW=X times intensity multiplier.

    TI=(IWa)+(IWb)+(IWc)+(IWd)+(IWe) and cannot exceed 500.
     
  37. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest


    I don't think it would be fair to "ignore" the exceptional 40DI bonus. I think the option to remove a mod is better and would give more flexibility, while at the same time retaining fairness. This wouldn't kill heartwoods, quite the opposite actually. It would allow crafters to burn heartwood kits with regular wood, get a bow close to what they want, then remove and imbue and enhance as they saw fit. The same goes for lower end runics (I know, I've been testing it and wishing I could remove mods lol).

    Hate to burst your bubble though, but that SC, MW-20, Hit Fireball, 25DCI or 30ssi mage wep will be impossible under the current system (I know I've been trying all permutations all morning to try and get it).
     
  38. TheGrayGhost

    TheGrayGhost Guest

    It's been said before but it seems to be worth reminding people what the Devs have said. Imbuing is not supposed to replace crafting, crafting with runics is supposed to be viable still. Imbuing is supposed to be a means to customize armor and weapons. You have more potential with a Runic but you have more control with imbuing. Hope to get an ubber weapon with the runic system or get one where you pick out the individual mods.

    You say "Runics can make more powerful weapons" I say Great! Because they are supposed to. The randomness of the mods make it hard to get some ubber weapon that fits your play style or your needs.

    You say "Imbuing doesn't have the potential of Runics" I say Great! Because it's supposed to be more for customizing weapons and armor instead of replacing runic crafters all together. Both are useful currently with the way things are. Runics have more potential in what they can make but it's random, Imbuing is less potent than runics but you get to customize the item to your specifications. Making both viable.


    You must Choose! More Power (Runics) or More Control (Imbuing).

    This is of course only if you aren't speaking about us Tinkerers :(.
     
  39. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    For example, here's somethings I crafted then imbued:

    [​IMG]

    The exceptional twinkling scimitar I made with a dull copper hammer. It came out with the exceptional and arms lore di bonus. I dropped down the di to have a better chance to get the 15dci (or so I told myself). It would have been nice to be able to remove that di (with a cost of course) and instead add mana leech or hit lightning.

    [​IMG]

    Here's another mage wep but with the opposite problem, it came out with hit fireball. That pesky di strikes again.

    [​IMG]

    Ugh, fcr? Are you serious.. wouldn't it be nice to be able to remove that and substitute a stat bonus?

    I'm not saying that removing mods necessarily has to be a function of imbuing alone. Perhaps a quest to receive an item that assists in the removal of one mod from an item, or maybe even a crafted item (say with the new ingredients from the peerless or whatever (hello medusa's blood!)).

    This removing option will in no way make "uber" weapons or make runics obsolete (and don't forget the difficulty in adding a 5th mod onto your weapon). It will simply level the playing field and allow the majority of players to customize their weapons, armor and jewels to their liking.
     
  40. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
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    What I still dont know (and always forgetting to test myself :D ) is how the exceptional bonus on armours is treated.
    - 6+5 resist% randomly distributed on runic armour
    - 15+5 resist% randomly distributed on non-runic exceptional armour
    With its random distribution it its probably impossible/unfair to count each affected resist into the 5 possible propertys. (Which would be compareable to di on weapons.)
     
  41. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    im thinking there wont be a whole lot of worth while on imbuing armor.
    you have to make the armor with runic kits, you have to imbue it, then risk enhancing it..
    seems alot risky and expensive to me?

    unless i am missing something?

    jewelery you just add properties? do you need the appropriate skill to imbue?
    to add to weapons does your imbuer need to be a smith? tinker for jewelery?
     
  42. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Just bumping this post up, hoping to get DEV input on the removal of properties idea. I think it would be really awesome to be able to remove one property from an item, whether it be part of imbuing (and thus cost resources, just like the lowering of intensity) or an item that is either crafted and/or retrieved from a quest or a drop from a new boss. Again, medusa's blood is an option... maybe used to create a "scouring potion" that can be used on an item by someone with GM or higher imbuing to remove one property from an item (think like staining but removing instead).

    This doesn't necessarily have to be released with SA (obviously time is running short), it could be a patch later on.