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Samurai Plate and Mage Armor question (inspired by 5 on Friday)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This item was in the Five on Friday today:

    This makes me ask a question....What was the reasoning behind Samurai Plate having mage armor as a free property? It could have been a back door way to save non-meddable armor if you'd had this great, Valorite runic hammer-made armor that wasn't meddable. Someone would have assembled a suit of this stuff on a dexer (a true, "heavy" dexer in non-meddable armor), gone into the field, done well with it, and others would have caught on.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Perhaps so people would craft full sets of samurai armor to go with the Ancient Samurai Helm and the Rune Beetle Carapace, both of which have the Mage Armor mod on them??
     
  3. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    And let me also add quickly, it would have been an incentive to create high-end, non-Samurai plate armor, something there's really hardly any of on the market.

    At least until you create a PvM-exclusive damage absorption property for having an entire suit of non-meddable armor.

    ;)

    -Galen's player
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, but I'm not saying it shouldn't have had the mage armor property, just that it shouldn't have been automatic.

    Also, the Tokuno map appeared long before the Treasures of Tokuno event which gave us the RBC. The ASH, however, did come in with SE so that could have been the motive, I reckon.

    Still, kind of a weak motive, really.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    As I understand it, it was more of a nod to the samurai armour itself.
    It shouldn't have been metal, since it was all laminates and things. A heavy, yet flexible armour.
    This was reflected in the ability to meditate and stealth in exceptionally crafted armour.

    Should probably have been added to carpentry, though...
     
  6. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Whoever designed it may have just thought that adding the mage armor property would preempt complaints from folks saying they wanted to dress their mages as samurais but it was too difficult to get all the pieces to do it. I know I made a set in dull copper for my mage to use while working on wrestling. I was still very new to UO and of course didn't have any runic tools, so I thought it was pretty darn cool I could make something with dull copper's high durability and get the mage armor property on them. Trying to finish a couple of suits for her to use in case all the training wore out the first set kept me motivated to keep working on blacksmithing so all those platemail pieces would come out as exceptional.
     
  7. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Virtually no one knew about the Mage Armor property being given to Samurai Platemail Armor. It wasn't until they changed runic hammers that it suddenly came to widespread attention.

    With a Valorite Runic Hammer you can craft a 5 property piece of armor with maximum intensities. This would not be a problem if Valorite Runic Hammers were as rare as they are supposed to be.

    I wonder what the plan is going to be to deal with all this to make all the new Stygain Abyss stuff useful. Because at the moment you can get perfect Leggings, Tunic, Sleeves and Gorget for relatively little cost.
     
  8. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Please dont complain about this heh, I love this feature, it allows you to burn bronze hammers for some decent stuff and it looks totally awesome.

    This is on siege of course, but seriously, its awesome.
     
  9. Magneto2272

    Magneto2272 Guest

    i guess im still wondering why almost every new armor and weapon is created for mages? how is it that a mage is allowed to wear PLATE ARMOR in the first place? here is yet ANOTHER example of why Ultima Online is much closer to 'Mages+Archers' Online...

    seriously. has anyone actually played a non-archer melee character lately? THEY ARE UTTERLY USELESS FOR ANYTHING ELSE BUT PVM.

    add to insult that trapped boxes are singly abused to replace the *ONE* actually useful function of the Resisting Spells skill... plus the 'balanced' [more like 'unbalanced'] mod on already overpowered long range bows and *NOT* on one-tile melee weapons?

    really? wtf is going on with this game? nerf potions over this stuff??? this is SO ass-backwards.

    attention develpoment team: if you want to truly balance this game, STOP TILTING EVERYTHNG YOU CREATE IN BOTH FUNCTION AND FORM TO MAGES AND ARCHERS AND RESOLVE THESE *GLARING* DISADVANTAGES TO EVERYONE ELSE. THAT IS ALL

    dont make me come over there...
     
  10. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Who cares?

    You know the main differences between leather armor and samurai armor? Well, they look different, weigh different, and sam armor only gets Mage Armor some of the time.

    In terms of defense? 15 base resist per piece total. In fact, just about every armor piece in the game has a base 15 resist ('cept hats which are 24). Leather, plate, ring, hide... It's all the same.

    Some parts have 16, granted, but again... who cares?
     
  11. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Well... You started on topic...
    Thing is, mages aren't the only folk to use medable armour...
     
  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I believe you're right that few knew about Mage Armor on Samurai Plate. I surely didn't. I found it out only as part of an argument on the boards about whether one should use a Valorite Runic hammer for weapons, or armor.

    As to getting perfect armor pieces at relatively little cost? I guess that word "relatively" comes in handy here. The cheapest I've ever personally seen a Valorite Runic hammer for sale on LS is 20 million. I have no idea if that price screams "dupe" to those in the know or not. But to me, it was a lot of money. I guess it's low relative to 100 million. And that doesn't even account for maybe having to buy more than one of them and fail a bunch of times at doing stuff.

    Bottom line is....I still foresee a major role for Imbuing.

    -Galen's player
     
  13. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    Same reason why archery was given velocity & balanced. Same reason why there is "elf only" armor and no "human only" armor.

    They're trying to move product at the expense of a balanced game. You can't use the samurai armor if you don't have the expansion.
     
  14. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Um excuse me trammies but...

    Why is it that meddable armor is just assumed to be "a mage thing" you dont have to be mage to appreciate lots of mana.

    Infact every template there is loves lots of mana except for tamers, so if anyone should be complaining its the tamers.

    The samurai armor is usable to a high degree for all temps, on siege it gives a use for low end hammers, even lower than bronze makes good armor for newer people. And seriously it looks awesome.

    If anything you shouldnt be saying " well if they nerf this, blacksmiths might have a chance to make armor that is considered good" what you should be saying to yourself is " wow with this, blacksmiths can make some armor that people will actually use, instead of tailoring be king of armor and blacksmithing having no place for making armor."

    Also of course, this is all biased because I play a samurai mage ( a Wujin if you will) and I love it for roleplay
     
  15. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I am of the opinion that the Mage Armor property should be removed from the game entirely.
     
  16. Magneto2272

    Magneto2272 Guest

    AMEN
     
  17. Magneto2272

    Magneto2272 Guest

    and herein lies the problem, which in my honest opinion is a glaring oversight by developers of long ago: every melee function a character does in relation to melee combat [special moves, etc] should cost STAMINA and not mana...

    and this conflagration is only a snapshot of a larger issue: that mages can literally utilize and perform every single function a melee character can, and so much more. all things are tied into a mage only frame of reference, which has been carried over for many years. the current state of this mage/archer dominate game is what we arrive at because of this. undo some of this CRAP, and ultima begins to look much more like ultima again...

    as is, there is literally no incentive to play a one-tile melee template whatsoever across the board.
     
  18. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    The idea is that mages should not be able to use heavy armor, no? But not only mage templates use meditation, so you are affecting more than mages by this. Mage armour does not actually affect magery, but meditation. True mage armour would either prevent casting or fall off when a spell is cast, like non spell channelling weapons and shields.
    It makes more sense that mages should need dex/stam for casting speed, and wearing heavy armour should slow that speed.
    Mages already need only two stats, and it makes sense that their casting would be affected by dexterity.
    Many other templates use a little magery as a utility rather than a pvp or pvm skill, and would be able to continue with slower casting speeds.
    If you want to take pvp mages out of plate armour, without affecting many other playstyles, then the course is to affect what makes pvp magery effective, not to remove the mage armour property.
     
  19. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    All non med armor should have this property, or they should have a reason for it to exist otherwise. As it is now, there is no point in it.
     
  20. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    And excuse you too, Fellie!!

    Did someone say this? I sure didn't. Galen is a warrior and his suit is 100% meddable. That's by conscious design, not coincidence.

    See above.

    .

    See above.

    Tempted to say "discussion over" at this point. Siege and its Asian sister shard have particular circumstances.

    Hmm.

    Based on what I could decipher of these 2 paragraphs, I think my response is that I wasn't saying the Mage Armor property shouldn't be available on Samurai Armor, just wondering what the reasoning was for making it an automatic property.

    Please tell me you can understand that relatively easy distinction.

    There's been concerns on this board for a long time about the comparative lack of good non-meddable armor. There's no good reason to have a non-meddable piece of armor, save for the Jackal's Collar, unless you're doing it strictly for RP, or you happen by coincidence to find a piece of non-meddable armor that's so awesome it's worth the mana regen penalty.

    And I was floating the notion that if Mage Armor weren't a free property, then there would be reason to use non-meddable armor more often, because Valorite Runics could be used to produce non-meddable armor that'd be good enough to warrant the MR penalty.

    And I wasn't even really arguing for this, just asking why the design decision was made the way it was given the, rather obvious, advantage of making the other decision.

    See above. I don't see anyone arguing that property shouldn't be available, I'm just wondering what the reason was for it being a "free property." Like JC the Builder, I don't think that was popularly known until recently.

    -Galen's player
     
  21. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Metal armour gives 15 basic resists per peice just like leather armour. The are only a couple that give 16 resist per piece.

    My warrior used to run in leather armour because with the mage-armour property, my med is actually faster, even if I don't have med.

    Viewed in this light, there's no incentive to use metal armour. Barbed kits are also easier to get, plus they sell for much less.

    The mage property puts at least 1 type of metal armour on par with leather. Making my lower end hammers actually useful and I am able to wear something other than leather on my warrior.

    In fact, I think the rest of the armor should have their basic resists increased to 16. Leather and samurai plate that allows med should remain at 15 resists each. Also, I would love to see a more diverse range of med-able metal armour like elven chainmail and elven plate.

    Edit: Expanding on the elven chainmail idea - all non med armour made by elven smiths all get the mage armour property but only 15 resists, while all non med armour made by humans all get 16 resists, no mage armour property. Should add another dimension for playing human and elves.
     
  22. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Galen, I knew about it back in 2005, about six months after I started playing. I stumbled on it by accident because I was trying to find stuff for my blacksmith to make to get some decent smithing gains. I refuse to believe that people who had GM or better blacksmiths when the Samurai Empire edition came out completely missed this when they tried making all the new craftables. Those folks probably tucked the knowledge away and didn't take advantage of it because the most widely available runic hammers at that time were pretty much worthless. And if you have never had a decent blacksmith and tried making one of everything just to see what it looks like, chances are you didn't know about this.

    I can't remember who it was that used to complain bitterly about the look of the samurai armor pieces. It was someone who knew exactly what it should have looked like and was trying to hold the developers' and artists' feet to the fire and get them to fix the errors and inconsistencies. I wish I could remember now who it was. I'm sure he was fully aware of the mage armor property on the samurai platemail pieces.

    I guess my question for you is why is it so important to know why someone decided this armor should all have the mage armor property if it was exceptionally crafted? Are you trying to figure out if was actually not a conscious decision and implemented erroneously? Until valorite hammers became so common, probably the only people who cared were poor crafters and role players who didn't mind having their mages carry reagents, and folks who play on Siege and Mugen.
     
  23. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Hm youd have to be partially blind to not understand what I was talking about there, you seem to not only have missed half of what I was talking about but also missed several previous posts complaining about how the game is geared towards mages.

    here id do it in crayon but stratics doest allow me to

    thread=mage armor
    mage armor= blah blah this game is geared toward mages
    me=mage armor only means meditation has nothing to do with magery, plenty of warriors run meditation, youd know that if you stepped out of trammel

    To your first post, no maybe you didnt say that but several overs did.

    To your third point, you don't realise that while siege may have its own circumstances, regardless of that, when prodo people complain we get stuck with the changes.

    And yes im saying it should be a free property, its the only way to make decent armor from blacksmithy, if it wast a free property, most the time the piece would be useless and even when you did make it with mage armor, the peice would be less powerful.

    You want nonmeddable armor to be realistic and stronger? then argue to have nonmeddable armor improved but don't try to persuade people against our sammy armor.

    This paragraph shows your complete lack of understanding:

    And I was floating the notion that if Mage Armor weren't a free property, then there would be reason to use non-meddable armor more often, because Valorite Runics could be used to produce non-meddable armor that'd be good enough to warrant the MR penalty.

    Mr penalty? you realise your suit is either all medable or its not right? theres no Mr penalty unless you mean complete negation of 120 skills points

    and it wouldnt make people go " hey this non medable piece is really great, lets use it" it will instead go like this " wow this piece is really great too bad it doest have mage armor, because I have 120 med so this piece is completely useless to myself and pretty much everyone else, TRASH!"

    Urg you uohall people scare me, there be like a basic game mechanics test to post here.

    Ok im too involved in this thread, im outty.
     
  24. Due to the fact there is no benefit to wear any armor but "mage" armor.

    Back in the day (either preAOS or preUOR), armor types actually did make a difference. Whether you were wearing heavy or light armor would depend on how much damage was occured to you. Another cool thing about those days was that the anatomy of characters in general were divided into catagories (head,torso,legs,arms etc) and depending on which "area" was hit would also influence how much damage you recieved.

    Since UOR and AOS, that system was completely removed making UO strictly item based where as everyone who wanted to compete required highend armor (and todays standard is highend mage armor).

    That shouldn't be the case. I either suggest that all armor has equal chances to be crafted mage armor w/o it costing a property slot OR divide armor into classes and make it beneficial to those classes.
     
  25. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    100 million and more is what this armor used to cost before they changed runic hammer properties. Those prices have now dropped to about 5-10 million gold. A really good piece might go for 20 million.

    You could either buy the perfect suit of armor or a Keep on a more crowded shard.
     
  26. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Good, because I don't have enough time to decipher you.

    From what I could gather....Nah, I can't gather much, other than that you think I'm dumb and yet you don't know how to use an apostrophe. You seem to have something against periods too.

    Anyone can make a typo, but when your apparent intent is to show that you're smarter than someone else it's best to not make so many.

    -Galen's player
     
  27. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I am simply extremely curious.

    I have an ongoing fascination with how and why decisions are made. Also, knowing why something was done can give insight into their overall visions for some or other aspect of the game.

    That's it, really.

    For example, did they want to have a chance to have good metal armor pieces out there, that wouldn't interfere with natural mana regeneration?

    (As an explanation of that, my understanding is that everyone has a natural mana regeneration rate that is applied before skills or items are taken into account, and that non-meddable armor interferes with that more than meddable armor does, which is why meddable armor is favored even when a character has Focus instead of Medication.)

    Did they think that Mage-Samurai would be a neat template, and didn't want to interfere with it?

    Was it for this reason, as Kiminality suggested:

    I'm honestly bewildered, and a little disturbed, by the strenuous response to a 100% innocuous question.

    I shouldn't be surprised though...I don't know why I would be. But I am.

    :(

    -Galen's player
     
  28. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Not exactly. Non-medable armor only affects your Meditation. It's not by a "certain amount per piece", wearing one single piece of non-medable armor removes all the benefits of the skill.

    All human characters have an inferred minimum of 20 points in every skill, so unless you're an elf with no med, wearing just a single bit of non-medable stuff will hinder your regen rate somewhat.

    Characters do have a "natural regen rate" aside from med/focus/items, but that's not affected by armor.

    Now, given this and the fact that all armor has the same base resistance level, in the crafting world pretty much the only stuff made is standard leather armor (granted barbed leather offers one less resistance point then valourite, but given the rarity difference between the two... no one cares).

    Yes, I know there are a ton of val hammer crafted sam suits floating around the place, but rumour has it those hammers were "less then difficult" to obtain.

    There is just no point in wasting time earning val hammers to make metal armor which might be mage armor when you could be earning barbed kits to make leather armor which will be. Note that "might" is very much the word of the day. If a legendary smith wants to make a platemail do (plate sam tunic), he only has a 21% chance of doing it exceptionally (and he even has a chance of failing completely). With a maxed out talisman, that's still only a 51% chance.

    A legendary tailor, on the other hand, can churn out exceptional leather tunics all day long with no chance of failure, even if he doesn't have a talisman.

    Given this, the market is flooded with medable stuff. It's pointless making non-medable gear when it's actually easier to make it medable. Therefore, the only form of metal armor worth using runic tools on is Samurai, 'cause chances are if you're not selling Mage Armor people will just buy off someone who is.

    Personally I'd just forget about it and use my hammers on weapons.

    As to why the devs set Sam armor up this way? When I first found out about it I thought the same as Kiminality ("real samurai armor was light like that"), but Chad's note rings a bell ("if you need the expansion to make the only naturally-medable form of metal armor, people will buy it").

    If, on the other hand, if you're asking in all seriousness for us to read the dev's minds... Don't. :p
     
  29. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    There is just no point in wasting time earning val hammers to make metal armor which might be mage armor when you could be earning barbed kits to make leather armor which will be. Note that "might" is very much the word of the day. If a legendary smith wants to make a platemail do (plate sam tunic), he only has a 21% chance of doing it exceptionally (and he even has a chance of failing completely). With a maxed out talisman, that's still only a 51% chance.

    You forgot to hold your +60ASH while using the duped val hammer. And to be current with the day make sure your crafters name is not on the armor or weapon. Then use a junk account with a rented Luna vendor to sell 7+ hammers worth of armor.

    The other big question is if the mage property will be counted when unraveled. It is considered at 100% mod if on plate/chain/ring. Don't feel like going through the 300+ post for that thread.
     
  30. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Actually, I was kind of hoping one of them would respond. Or a player had read something that I didn't read, or didn't remember.

    Oh well.

    -Galen's player
     
  31. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Have another poll!
     
  32. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I've never done a Stratics poll in my life to my recollection....And besides, I really don't think you can do a poll on what we think the devs had in mind?

    -Galen's player
     
  33. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I agree.

    I think that LRC should be removed also.

    I wish that you had to 'mix' spells like you did for the PC game.

    Leather should not protect as well as metal armor against physical... but should be better against energy.

    I miss 'dexer' armor.....

    *sigh*
     
  34. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Well, it really depends. Shugenja (which if you have a Samuari expansion, how could you not have Shugenja) are of the same caste and are considered Samuari.

    Depending on what you read/who you believe, they also wore armor while they preformed their 'magic'. Others had a Yojimbo to protect them.

    *shrug*

    Just a thought.