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SCNP mage weps...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sir Morder, Apr 18, 2009.

  1. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    Should they be nerfed? Why give a mage the opportunity to utilize and extra 120 skill points (achieved by mage wearing crystaline ring)? This is NOT a cry thread so if your gonna cry please don't post. This is meant do discuss why a template should be able to reach 840 skill points when other templates are limited to 720.
    Discuss...
     
  2. Uthar Pendragon

    Uthar Pendragon Seasoned Veteran
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    To truely argue this fairly you would have to include all UBW weapons. Because that is what they do. They allow fighters to bypass the skill requirement for that particular weapon (without the penalty of losing any skill). It is availible for all chars so I see no reason for it to change.
     
  3. Sir Morder

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    I disagree. UBWS still requires the warrior to have 120 skill points in a fighting skill. You cannot arm a UBWS wep and have zero fighting skill and be effective, in fact, you won't be able to hit anything period.
     
  4. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Ahh but your able to use the benifits say a fencer,macer would have IE:Weap special combos, that you wouldnt being your a swordsman.

    *edit side note*
    As for sc no-fc mages weaps i think they are fine to get a very good one is a matter of luck or alot of GP, the crys ring is 15m min alone plus you need to add an orny and inquis, some use AOF, Foldedsteels, alot of gold goes into balanceing that -20 out with templates just for that same DCI warriors get that we had before tactics was required for specials nerfing our tank mages. In fact they need to allow us to make em with imbuing or make artifacts.
     
  5. Uthar Pendragon

    Uthar Pendragon Seasoned Veteran
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    You find it acceptable for a fighter to reach the 840 skill points but not a mage.
    A mage is required to have the crystaline ring to reach that same 840 skill points. Without tactics how often does that mage hit? even with hci/dci, one slot is given up to the ring that does not have these mods.

    Bottom line, do it to one.... do it to all, or just leave it alone.
     
  6. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    This is true, but the UBWS weps still require 120 skill points dedicated to a fighting skill, whereas the SCNP mage wep allows a mage to drop 120 points in wrestling and still recieve the defensive abilities as a warrior would with 120 skill points in any fighting skill. For example: basic mage template, 120 magery 120 eval 120 resist 120 med 120 wrest 100 inscribe 20 focus. 720 skill points total. Now arm a scnp mage wep -20. Drop 120 wres cause it's no longer needed for defensive ability. Arm crystaline ring (+20 magery) and your back to 120 magery and now have 120 extra skill points due to zero wrestling skill. I fail to see where any warrior can arm a wep and be able to utilize 120 EXTRA SKILL points in the template. If im missing something please explain....
     
  7. Quite simply there are no good reasons to remove them. It would make two things happen, less working Mage templates and less people playing Mages. Neither of those are things I'd support, least of all when the shards I play already have Dexxer majoritys.

    It's not like Mage weapons are some accidental exploit thats been stumbled upon, like bonding Bake Kitsunes on a Necro by stoning Taming around.

    Ignoring loot/crafted Mage weapons its still available on Artifacts, if you removed all but them, all it would achive is that Mages could no longer use 1 handed Mage weapons and the use of pots. Which combined with the other two reasons just looks like a biased nerf to Mages in PvP.
     
  8. Sir Morder

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    Tactics has nothing to do with the ability to hit anything.
     
  9. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Look at first line of my first reply UBWS.
     
  10. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    still waiting for someone to show me a warrior template that can drop a skill to zero skill points and be effective...
     
  11. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    So your saying a warrior should have ubws archery weps? Or is it ok to just limit the warrior to warrior weps because having 120 skill points dedicated to a skill only lets me use certain weps?
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    [​IMG]

    No anatomy, Heal, resist(trapped boxes and items nixes that skill) if your thinking true dexer template.
     
  13. Sir Morder

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    Oh and scnp mage weps are NOT intended to be used as a warrior would use a wep. I'd dare any mage to tell me they have killed a warrior in a pvp situation with a scnp mage wep. These weps are only being used as a way for a mage to gain an op advantage in the field. Why else is anyone looking for the uber scnp -20 mage weps with +15 dci +50 hla +50 hit lightning/fireball weapons? Please explain...
     
  14. Sir Morder

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    Im not sure what your trying to expose here? I still see 120 skill points in fencing.
     
  15. Sir Morder

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    anat and heal wouldnt be needed you already have 3 ways to heal plus on the run healing. How many more ways do you need to heal?
     
  16. Sir Morder

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    And just for advice, 110 tactics is a waste of 20 skill points.
     
  17. To get 120 melee defense with a Mage weapon you need 120 skill points used.
    To get 120 melee defense with a non Mage weapon you need 120 skill points used.

    Both get hit/defend/hit spell. Neither get damage or specials at this point.

    However the Mage is at a disadvantage because they need items to retain it, a usually high priced weapon plus a Crystalline bare minimum.
    The Mage is also at a disadvantage because Dexxers are hitting at 1.25s. Mages are not intended to, and no stamina is used in swinging or healing.

    If you want to then add Tactics into the argument in a balanced way (applying it to both). The Dexxer needs Tactics only for damage and the use of specials, however the Mage to achieve the same would need Tactics and at least 90 in the weapon skill to be able to use the specials meaning that they are worse off for points to achieve the same effect.
     
  18. WildWobble

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    Eh only an issue for pvp since faction arties allow ya to pass the negative easily. As for use best thats not an issue it offers no real benifit to a warrior at the cost of a mod on the weapons it uses and grants very very limited specials i can only find talon strike that a swordsman does not allready have on one form of weapon or other.

    Mage weapon on bows is a problem when warriors do not get use best on them well they did once apon a time but not now.
     
  19. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    120 bush
    120 mage
    100 tactics
    120 parry
    100 resist spells
    99 necro
    65 chiv

    weapon neg 20 ornate axw with mana leech ssi stamina leech sc with neg hci

    This can solo a dark father no prob and alot of other pvm things bit intense on gear but the extra ev's and other spells are fun to roll with.
     
  20. T'Challa

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    You have 4 different "casting" skills in there. I would consider that more of a spellcaster template than a warrior template. It could go either way, I suppose.

    The template intrigues me, this may be my next build on SP.
     
  21. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    I have +skill items on this dexer.

    You still dont get the point That I dont need resist,Anatomy,Heal Skills required for a true Dexer template.

    since i play mostly mages, SC mage weaps are for necromages on pacific for the most part, Most scribe mages use wres for spell books, Useing a mage weap is no where near useing the true weap skill there is no way besides the dci that you can compare it, cant hit with it or use specials you would need a tactics mage for that then all you would need is a sc no-fc. Nerf those too i guess?

    Hey maybe its time to nerf the dexer how bout he has to be in range and click every swing.
     
  22. Sir Morder

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    See my previous post daring to see if any mage has intentionally used a scnp mage wep to kill a dexxor with.
     
  23. Sir Morder

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    Of course this is effective LOL. It's soley based on getting the benefits of using a scnp -20 mage wep. Thank you for proving my point though.
     
  24. Sir Morder

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    Apparentyly i've played a dexxor much much longer than you have. How about when dexxors had to actually stop next to their target in order to swing? This fix tooks a couple of years to fix. The benefits of dci ARE what i described. This discussion is about why should a mage template get the benefits of having an extra 120 skill points available when no other template does.
     
  25. Sir Morder

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    I will argue my own arguement here abit. A dexxor (fencer for instance) can get the benefits of skill points at the cost of dropping his true skill points. Equipping with dread's revenge +20 fence, dread pirate hat +10 fence, and using +15 ring and bracelot gives a fencer +60 extra skill points to use. But what fencer in his right mind is gonna drop fencing to 60 and rely on gettin uber ring and bracelot (maybe not a problem on prodo shards due to insurance)? Anyways thats 4 items to get +60 skill points whereas a mage uses 1. Not to mention a mage doesn't have to drop his REAL skill to get the benefits of extra skill points.
     
  26. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    This almost seems like you were rocked by a mage on siege?
     
  27. I have seen it and its still wrong. In any balanced comparrison the Mage is at a disadvantage. The reason you can't see this is because your comparrisons have not been balanced.
     
  28. Because dexxers get so much stuff that no other template does. Like swinging weapons without any stamina cost, being able to attack while moving, not being interuptable, having built in defense in their weapon skill. Maybe if Mages had some of this stuff they wouldn't need mage weapons.

    Or maybe you should just take your own advice.

    "This is NOT a cry thread so if your gonna cry please don't post."
     
  29. The_Dude_

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    Stop your crying. Were you here whining like a champ when they came out with the staff of the magi or the swords of prosperity? Those are scnp -0 mage weapons. Or is it only because now mages can chug and have more dci.

    Let me guess your a dexer who got owned cause your couldnt hit the mage. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

    DISARM THEM and go about your business dont come here crying.
     
  30. WarUltima

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    WoW... just wow. It's still sad to hear dexers (currently having the upper hand vs mage 1v1) complaining about mages...

    I wonder why didnt he complain about staff of magi when they released it hmm 7 years ago.

    Most likely he's shocked in awe that he just got face planted by a mage 1v1. And he can usually kill those little mages in 3 hits... then hes wondering why that mage killed him... *sees mage holding mage weapon* Oh yes must be!!! that damn mage weapon and the added skill owned me... otherwise there's no reason such a skilled dexer like me who offscreens very quickly and never die to mages to get killed by one because I got cocky!!11.

    There's really no good reason to remove it. Yes by investing points in MAGERY mages can get the defensive benefit. But it doesnt have any other benefit like UBWS.

    And lets look at it this way. Mage Weapon + Ring gives up to 120 skill point in defense. However UBWS gives up to 240... and still allows you to do specials that's the benefit of UBWS and there's no UBWS -29 is there? Or we can split tactics skill up into different categories. Swords Tactics, Fencing Tactics, Mace Fighting Tactics and Archery Tactics. When you have Sword and Sword Tactics skill you are ok. But if you use UBWS kryss while only having Sword and Sword Tactics skill you get to use the kryss for defensive purpose but Sword Tactics wont work for fencing weapon thus no added dmg and specials for you.

    Mage Weapon uses non-weapon skill as weapon skill at a penalty. Skill points gained do not count toward weapon special requirement (Up to 120 free skill points)

    UBWS uses weapon skill to transfer into another weapon skill at no penalty and points gained counts TOWARD weapon special requirement.

    Each has their own advantage. End of Discussion.

    Oh btw if you are still getting face planted by another non-taming mage 1v1... I dont know what to tell you...(well other than lern2play??) at least my dexer dont die to any mage 1v1 because I know when to offscreen... and that's like godmode for any dexer vs mages. They have mage weapons that gives them skill points while I have free godmode...... hmm I wouldnt complain at all.
     
  31. MalagAste

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    Good grief!.... First off... quit being a whiner and complainer about skill points... you want to whine I'll get you something to whine about...

    Archery...... NO UBWS, NO SPNP weapons AT ALL!.... Get over yourself. Learn to PvP..... change your template..... stop crying about everyone elses.... try another tactic... EVERY template has a weakness... it's just a matter of finding it.... every template has a bonus of some sort..... NO things are not perfectly balanced..... and they won't ever be either... For whatever you build your character to be there is someone who can get around your defense.... Or has a better connection.... Or has a greater Offense...

    Maybe you just need to learn to build a better suit.....

    Tamer skills 120 peacing, music, taming, lore, vet, GM magery.... 60 med....

    points 760....

    Archer.... 120 archery and stealth, 110 healing and tactics, GM hiding and anat, 70 chivy and 40 tracking.....

    Points 780....

    Do I die..... sure from time to time..... but am I in here crying about how I think this or that has to be nerfed???? Heck no.
     
  32. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Take two equally skilled mage players. Give them a 720 skill cap. Give one the best SCNP weapon in game and the other the spellbook in game. Then tell them to build a template around those two items. One will build a template with no wrestling (most likely) and one will build a template with wrestling (maybe).

    Now, have them face off with each other. Who is going to win most of the time? The one with 120 extra points to put into his template or the one that had to spend 120 points on wrestling for defense?

    I don't see this as a mage vs dexer vs archer discussion but more of a 'does it make it too much of a requirement to have a SCNP mage weapon?' issue.

    I am not saying either way, but looking at it using the above example, what are the thoughts?
     
  33. Sir Morder

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    Anyone posting here crying should have read my thread starter. I guess i've hit on a sore spot with some mages. Whats the matter, gettin all butt sore when someone points out an obvious op template. I still haven't seen anyone post a template that would use warrior skills that would go over the 720 skill point cap. And as far as gettin face planted by a mage 1v1, i don't think so. Sure an obvious way to defeat someone using a scnp mage wep is to disarm them, that is if they stick around and not notice that they've been disarmed. BTW, i've been on siege for the past 11 years, where have you been? And i play a scribe mage and a necro mage this is why i'm posting here, because i know first hand how op this template is. Thanks.
     
  34. Bruce Dickinson

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    The mage with the SCNP mage-weapon would have an advantage in mana regeneration (assuming the wrestle mage went the wrestle necro mage route). So assuming they were both equal at playing necro mages, the one with the mage weapon would have a higher chance of winning.

    However, the wrestle necro mage would be the overall more versatile character. He would have access to 50 EP, and would consider disarm a slight annoyance, instead of a fear. So would do much better against dexxers (which most people seem to play).

    Basically, a necro mage with a mage weapon would have a slight advantage over a wrestle necro mage, while the wrestle necro mage would have a much better chance against dexxers. Making the mage weapons balanced IMO.
     
  35. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    How bout you try playin those templates without your precious insurance? Yes or no? If you don't answer, i'll take that as a no ;-)
     
  36. EDA_GL

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    On a semi-related topic...
    Anyone else notice it seems harder to hit mages that are using a weapon (true weapon skill OR -mage weapon) compared to wrestle mages? Could there be some benefit to actually having A weapon to having a book armed?
     
  37. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Mine dosnt use a book i keep that hand open to chug.
     
  38. Sir Morder

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    Books are 1-handed fyi
     
  39. Then a fighter should not be able to use a spell damage weapon... They can cast a different spells at GM eval levels over and over and over... No meditate skill needed, no mana needed. Never mind unique area effect spell damage.

    It all works out in the end, and yes this is a cry thread if you arent being objective...
     
  40. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Good insight. Personally, I am a die hard rp template builder. Meaning, my mages never carry shields or weapons. They carry spellbooks. That's just a personal rp choice and not a critical statement on anyone that does those things.
     
  41. MalagAste

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    Insurance.... isn't the problem..... And if I did play those templates without insurance which I can do ..... my tamer is then 115 all and still does just fine.... my archer can do just fine as well... Just rework the suit... with or without the items doesn't matter.... and the complaint wasn't about insurance.... cause without insurance I'm betting the mage wouldn't be carrying a stick like that and CERTAINLY wouldn't have a crystaline ring.... that's for dang sure. I can play my templates fine.... Gm armor or not....


    And another thing...... If some fool mage has 120 skills extra from carrying a stupid staff then as a dexer your first mission is To..... *gasp* Disarm!.... there goes his skill...... Now knock him to the ground..... good grief.... Another FYI for you..... an archer doesn't have the luxury of being able to disarm either....
     
  42. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Wow thanks for clearing that up for me, I would rather have a spell book besides my sc no -fc 14dci 13hci val shield.
     
  43. Sir Morder

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    I hoping you have at least basic knowledge of this game (this aint pac-man ya know). In your second paragraph you mentioned a dexxor disarming a mage, i've previously stated this in this thread, and i agree with you. Then you mentioned knocking him to the ground with an archer. Are you stating now that a dexxor would need 240 skill points to compete with the extra 120 free skill points a mage gets? Cause im unaware of an archery wep that disarms if your talking about just usin an archer. And if your talking about lets say, using fencing with a lance, that means the dexxor has to be on foot. Ya, i see alot of dexxors running around on foot these days. Thanks for pointing out though that a dexxor would need 240 skill points dedicated to do just what you said versus a mage that uses one wep and automatically gets 100 extra skill points (if not using crystaline ring).
     
  44. Sir Morder

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    I have to question why anyone would run parry on a mage in the first place, seeing as parry is dex based. I sure would rather have my dci 9 sdi 30 fc2 lmc 5 spellbook in my hand than any shield. Oh and im sure your running parry cause why else would anyone have a scnp dci shield right? Unless ofcourse your just interested in the dci, which again proves my point about using an item that gives free dci.
     
  45. Larry

    Larry Guest

    Wow...

    Mages have be nerfed non-stopped for years. This thread is ridiculous. Removing mage weapons would make necro-mages pointless.

    If you do that everyone will play a dexer, which seems to be what the devs want as they continue to make playing anything but an archer or tamer pointless.
     
  46. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    Did I say i run parry? i use a quiver of inf just for the 5dci and to hold arrows for my buds to boot. I use my orney just for the 20 lrc and fc/fcr, I use totem of the void just for the 10lmc, whats your point?
     
  47. Maximus Neximus

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    My guess is an archer got beat by a mage...

    [​IMG]
     
  48. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Yep, bad BAD dexers who needs to learn 2 play.
     
  49. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    hmmm if there gonna remove mage weapons becouse "they give a free 120 skill points" then they need to remove +skill items i mean its possible not that ive seen one to get one jewel with 75 skills on it. O and lmc and mr becouse my 50 med chars that wear 40 lmc and 14 mr can out cast my 120 med 3 mr 40 lmc chars. Lets not forget the free human skills how many bonus is that and ubws and dci/hci.

    As far as mage weapon mage vs wrestling mage sure you can say that the mage weapon mage gets 120 skill points from his mage weapon but the wrestle mage can get 45 skill points from his book and still if he wants get the 20 magery from the crystline ring so only 55 skill points diffrent in exchange for being able to disarm / para punch and not lose all defence to disarm
    if scnp weapons are so OP then y is it i hardly every play the char that carries my scnp -20 mage weapon that has 21 dci and 14 fire resist on it with a template of 120 magery eval resist ss 105 necro 80 poison and rest med, instead prefering to play my 120 bush 120 parry 120 swords 106 mage 120 eval 100 tatics 54 med char. The second char can do WAY better burst damage and has greatly increased survivablity do to confedence parry and evaid. In damage over time without items that instantly remove what the first char could do he would win the DOT fight but Between apples and cure pots that dont happen burst damage is what counts.
     
  50. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Note that UBWS will allow you to use the weapon specials, if the real weapon skill you actually possess and Tactics are both high enough for that level special.

    Mage Weapon DOES NOT.

    I personally run a PvM hybrid mage template that has 80 Chivalry and GM tactics.

    Note that only an idiot runs tactics (if their template uses it) at a total under GM, for the simple fact that there is an additional DI bonus for GM (real points or not), so that the "ideal" amount of tactics is 90 real +10 from somewhere else, for a true weapon-skill user. Someone running a template like mine wouldn't be limited to the "real" component, as ALL it does is DI, and would probably be better served havign anatomy instead of tactics (lower DI, but helps the EI/Anatomy defensive bonus for mages when not using a weapon).

    I am PvM only, and only use the weapons for defense and for supplementing damage (monsters that dispel can quickly cause you to do a full mana dump, maintaining your summons). I found I do much better using a SCMW bow, even with a -1 FC, with my summons, than casting summons and then mana dumping spells onto big targets (like champ bosses, peerless, etc.) In fact, I was INCAPABLE of getting looting rights, even wearing an SDI suit, of getting peerless looting rights with my mage until I added the bow (And its support skills). With the Bow, I can cast summons more often, heal/cure party members and their pets, and STILL keep up a good DPS rate (better, actually) without having mana issues - all while getting looting rights that would not come when I tried playing a more pure mage template. For that matter, if the bow has Hit Mana Leech, it effectively doubles my mana regen (don't laugh; even getting back 2-3 mana a hit adds up when your suit is 40% LMC)