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Scroll Binders - Incorrect Info

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Theo_GL, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    This page seems out of date.

    I believe it takes twelve 110 scrolls to make a 115 now.

    It should also be noted that you cannot remove the scrolls once bound - correct? So if you are 5/12 on your way and you want to remove one/all - it is not possible.

    It would be nice if you could axe it or something and remove if you needed.

    I'd like to use these to store all my lower level scrolls but if someone wants to use a 110 mage or something - I could remove it from the binder or destroy the binder and rebind the remaining ones.
     
  2. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    That would be a nice option and a good way to store scrolls instead of taking up storage space (kind of like BOD books).
     
  3. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Fist off, no way they doubled the requirments, that suxs. Using them to store PSs is a nice idea.
     
  4. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Yes, this is how I thought it was going to function until I got a chance to play with them after SA went live.

    Useful - but not as useful as they could be.
     
  5. guum

    guum Guest

    Wow, yeah, that would be pretty strange. The requirements were already very nearly prohibitive.
     
  6. Sakkarah_

    Sakkarah_ VIP
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    They have not been designed as storage but rather as a way to give purpose to the lesser scrolls that people normally trash. So right now it works more like a BOD. So any scroll you bind to it is gone for good. That said, if you have 2 different binders that were binding the same type of scrolls, you could merge them into one.

    For instance, say you have a binder with 105 magery 6/8 and another binder with 105 magery 4/8, you could combine them to obtain 1 x 110 magery powerscroll and 1 x 105 magery 2/8 binder.

    If the 2nd binder had been 2/8 instead of 4/8, then combining the 2 binders would have simply given you a 110 magery PS.

    Based on the feedback during close beta, the number of Powerscrolls and Stats scrolls has indeed been modified.

    8 x 105 powerscroll = 1 x 110 powerscroll
    12 x 110 powerscroll = 1 x 115 powerscroll
    10 x 115 powerscroll = 1 x 120 powerscroll

    6 x +5 stats scroll = 1 x +10 stats
    8 x +10 stats scroll = 1 x +15 stats
    8 x +15 stats scroll = 1 x +20 stats
    5 x +20 stats scroll = 1 x +25 stats

    The cap for binding SoTs has been reduced. If you bind SoTs to exactly a value of 2.0, it will automatically turn the binder into a 2.0 SoT. If however you bind it to a value of 2.1 or more, the binder will then go from a X/2.0 to a X/5.0 SoT. If you try to bind SoTs beyond the value of 5.0, any excess points will be lost.
     
  7. Shamus Turlough

    Shamus Turlough Lore Master
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    Well, that should clear that up.

    Thanks Regine!
     
  8. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    48 - 110 PS and you got a 120 PS
    If the doubled everthing
    192 - 110 PS and you got a 120 PS

    48 of the same was hard enough, now 192.
    Not worth doing now
     
  9. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    So it is going to take 120 110 PS to make a 120 PS. 48 was bad enough, now you need 120 of them. Whos brain child was this.
    5 x +20 stats scroll = 1 x +25 stats, your joking right.

    LOL 960 x 105 powerscroll = 1 x 120 powerscroll, was 192 105s, incread 5X
     
  10. guum

    guum Guest

    This is a really good change. Not so sure on the powerscrolls -- I thought the requirements were on the high side already. We'll see, I guess.
     
  11. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Agree with the SoT change being good.

    With all the skills out there that have PSs getting 48 110s of the same skill was going to take a long time, but could be done over time. Now you need 120 110s of the same skill to get a 120. I think someone really needs to run the numbers on this again.

    Why even bother giving people something to look forward to and then take it away? This is, I can not for the life of me think of one work for this.
     
  12. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Wow, that is so disappointing. I was really looking forward to scroll binders and felt the original numbers were realistic. Obtaining 48 x 110 scrolls would still take a long time. The new numbers are also unsatisfactory from an economic standpoint. Not only would it take a long time to build a 120 scroll from 110s, but if I was to purchase 110 scrolls it would now cost me more then just buying 1 x 120 on the open UO market with gold.

    Very disappointing! Please re-look this and revert to the original plan for upgrades to the next PS level (4 x 105; 6 x 110; 8 x 115).

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  13. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    I don't really see the problem here. You are omitting the fact that you get a 115 PS for every twelve 110s so it's not like you have to find one hundred twenty 110s to do anything. Also they are cheap enough for anything less than 120s that you would probably buy a couple 115s, use some 110s and 105s that you already have etc...

    The change I'd like to see is putting ANY 110 instead of a "Matching" one and then when you get your 115 you select what you want as your 115... would give more use for "trash" PS.
     
  14. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    I was really looking forward to the changes to crafting. Now I am glad UO Game Codes and EA Store didn't take my Debit Card, but they will let me use it to pay for the auto renewal on my accounts, LOL. What are you going to nefr next? Why did you even let us in closed bata for that 1 wk? You wanted to sell us something, just to take it away. What is next? TY for saving me $150.
     
  15. guum

    guum Guest

    Yeah...the complaint is mostly just that 105s are *still* worthless. The numbers are just way too high to be realistically useful.
     
  16. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    ok so you get a 115 from 12 110s now you are over looking the fact that you need to do this 10 times to get a 120.
     
  17. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Yes, at this rate it is still not worth collecting 105s.

    With 120 x 110s to make 1 x 120, the economic math is off. I took a quick look around Luna. The average price for a 110 Swordsmanship scroll is 30K (of course it varies by shard). That means it will cost 3.6M to make the scroll.

    Though that may be an equivalent price in the current UO market, think about the time factor. You would have saved up for months to buy those scrolls. Why bother. You might as well just save gold and purchased the 120 scroll outright.

    What I foresee as an inadvertent side effect is that there is going to be fewer 110s on the market. New players will be increasingly out of luck to obtain starter 110 scrolls. This will be a significant problem for people trying to start characters on smaller shards (such as Origin, Lake Austin, Legends, Sonoma, Napa Valley, etc).

    Scroll Binders are not seeming like an advantage of SA anymore, but just a toilsome long-term project for those with lots of extra house storage. I was hoping this would help bring 120s more in reach of the casual gamer -- not any more.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  18. Chrissay_

    Chrissay_ Guest

    The guide has been updated with the correct information :)
     
  19. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    You need to update images too!
     
  20. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    That's nice. They came out and told us about imbuing and that there would be changes to it . I looked at those changes and they were not that bad.

    Nowhere did they say anything about this before SA went live. This is not a minor adjustment, this is a major nerf.
     
  21. Godiva_DF

    Godiva_DF Guest

    I was quite excited about it in the one week in beta I got. The numbers you needed were perfect to be an incentive. Now I won't bother, it is just too much. You would not store 9 115 scrolls nobody can ever use again just on the offchance you might get the 1 you need to accomplish the 120.

    Also prices before SA did not warrant these numbers, at least not on my shard.
     
  22. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    I agree that the number of scrolls to combine is a bit crazy.

    How often do 115 scrolls drop compared to 110's at champ spawns? About 8 to 1? That should be the ratio then. Just as rare as the drop rates. 120 compared to 115? Same ratio.

    I doubt scrolls are 12 to 1 from 110 to 115.

    That would have made sense - not just picking a number out of the air like what it appears was done.

    Also Chrissy - when people said 6 to 1 was too low - you don't just go and double it. It become exponential from tier to tier.

    Changing it from 6 to 1 to 8 to 1 from 110 to 115 would have been a decent increase on the path to 120's.

    Just like every other system (bods, community collections, zoo points etc). Great idea. Failed implementation.
     
  23. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    So the only feedback you took was from the bata testers. What happened to pet dyes then, they were for it.

    Did you ask the bata testers if they did the champ spawn for these PSs on thier norm shard? Bata testers, OMG no way we can not have this it will cut into our profits to much, we have to make this not worth doing.

    A GOOD IDEA GONE VERY VERY BAD.
     
  24. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Might we recommend a new ratio to be implemented that is a compromise between the pre-SA numbers and the system as released:

    6 x 105 = 1 x 110
    8 x 110 = 1 x 115
    10 x 115 = 1 x 120

    This makes it so it is still worth it to collect 105s (which otherwise have nearly zero value), and adjusts the required scroll ratios to more closely align with champ spawn drops. Also, I think there should be a little bonus in doing the work to collect the scrolls. Building the 120 from scroll binder should cost you about 33% less than just buying the scroll outright. I think that is a good cost-to-benefit ratio for doing the work to collect the lesser power scrolls. That will take time.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  25. Solipsist123

    Solipsist123 Guest

    Why do you base that on the feedback during closed beta? How can beta-testers give informed feedback on this issue? Wouldn't it make much more sense to do a quick survey of average vendor prices and then calculate the best numbers? The aim should be to make it a little cheaper to buy up all necessary minor scrolls compared to buying a 120 scroll (so players can make their own "time vs. money" decision). This should be a design decision driven by economic reasoning IMO.

    My personal research, which is admittedly limited to scrolls for certain skills on Europa, showed that this would have worked out nicely with the "old" numbers (I checked resist spells, wrestling, taming, magery).

    I guess that this would have had a positive impact on the market, giving players a chance to actually move some minor scrolls on their vendor on a regular basis, leading to a better flow of money in the game.

    With those new numbers, I don't see how it is going to stimulate the market at all. Who is the "target audience" for this feature now?

    If I may make one humble recommendation to the designers: You have a lot of good ideas and you produce fine content. But you should sometimes have a more watchful eye on the market dynamics in the game. Sometimes design decisions should be reviewed from an economics perspective. If you would do that more often, UO wouldn't for instance suffer from hyperinflation.


    Just my two cents...
     
  26. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    There are 29 skills listed on this page http://uo.stratics.com/php-bin/show_content.php?content=28543 and out of those 29 skills even with the old numbers it was going to take awhile to get 48 110s of the same skill.
    How many 110s does 1 champ drop?
    How many of those are the same?
    How many champs would you have to do to get 48 of the same PS?

    Gee I might have looked forward to 6-12 months to buy enough 110s to do a 120. Now you might get lucky and see it in what 2 years, if that.
     
  27. Vaen Swiftar

    Vaen Swiftar Guest

    It is in my honest opinion that we, as a player base, have NO IDEA WHAT WE WANT. During beta, there were cries that the scrollbinding process wasn't hard enough on the players and that the market would be flooded with high end scrolls. The devs listened to the playerbase and fixed the values. And due to their hard work, dedication to UO, and the implementation of a new feature that is meant to make high end items more readily available to their playerbase, they get yelled at.

    Bravo, guys. Honestly, suck it up and either roll with the punches, or write your thoughts down in an actual professional manner, and propose another system. I'm sure some of you may already be doing this, and props to you for doing so.

    They didn't have to implement this system, but they did it. For us.

    Seriously guys. Stop being ungrateful waffles and bastards. You sound like spoiled kids.
     
  28. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    I still think it would be an improvement, even with these higher levels of each lower needed, if we could turn in any PS... There are so many skills it just makes sense to let you collect for what you need. IMHO.
     
  29. Vaen Swiftar

    Vaen Swiftar Guest

    Horrible idea. Flatline all the prices while you are at it.

    This is a new system meant to do something with all the lesser scrolls. It is not meant to distribute free 120's.
     
  30. DHMagicMan_1

    DHMagicMan_1 Guest

    Obviously it wouldn't give out free 120s... no one wants 105s or 110s anyway, no matter the skill. If they modified it then the expensive 105s and 110s would come down in price and the cheap/garbage ones would GAIN value. The point is if you had to collect ten 110s they could be of anything, and you wouldn't have to look for ten SPECIFIC 110s out of thousands.
     
  31. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    I just went through 5 threads on scroll binders and for every 1 post against there were 10 for. Please show me where all these anti scroll binder posts are. What in the closed bata forum, that you were part of. The Devs listened to a small group and it was the bata testers that were asked about the numbers. You just want to keep the L33T, L33T. Champ spawners control this and it will cut into thier prorit. OMG resonable prices for all UO players.

    And you sound like a person that want to keep all the L33T stuff to yourself. Forget about doing what is right for the rest of the player base.
     
  32. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    It's just suppose to be something for scrolls you don't really use. Eventually you'll get a 20 out of it. I don't understand why you're crying so much. Do you all think you should do one spawn and get a guranteed 20 out of it?

    Or for you people crying about the numbers, are you trammies who don't get to spawn when ever you want? So you're trying to get the number reduced so if you do sneak a spawn off you'll get rewarded faster?
     
  33. guum

    guum Guest

    New rule: anyone who uses the word "trammy" without ironic intention in a post loses speaking priveleges. Seriously, it's like using an epithet -- it just makes the speaker sound prejudiced and weakens their claim.
     
  34. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    First of all it's BETA, not BATA, which you've messed up going on 35 times now. Second if you don't like how champ spawns are, wake up at server up and spawn without getting killed or learn to fight, it's your choice. Stop crying because you can't get a 20 as fast as you'd like, you seem like the type who probably can't do a spawn whenever you want. : (
    Risk vs Reward Frodo, deal with it.
     
  35. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    New rule you sound like an idiot and no one cares.
     
  36. guum

    guum Guest

    Good lord, are you in middle school?
     
  37. Vaen Swiftar

    Vaen Swiftar Guest

    I roleplay. I don't go to champs. Nice try though.
     
  38. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    Wow, This was such a great idea, and now its completely worthless. So disapointing to see such a great concept go down the pipes. I have been saving every 110 scroll over the past few months, and I have over 500 I have been looking forward to using with the binders. Not it would be less work to simply toss them all in the recycle bin and just go out and buy a 120 like we used to.

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Change this back to the way it was!!!!


    Good job on the SoT Binders, thats a positive change. Its at least a step in the right direction. However, what these really need is an option where you single click on the scroll and choose to turn it back into an SOT with whatever the current Binder value is. We need to be able to make a SOT with a value of 7.4 if thats what we have. SoTs are so valuable that its not worth combining them and sacrificing points to get it to a whole number value.
     
  39. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I was telling my guildmaster the other day that the part of SA I was most looking forward to was not the new dungeon, the gargoyle race, or the new skills; I was looking forward to Scroll Binders.

    I do do champs in Fel, but I've never been fortunate enough to get, for instance, a 120 Magery to drop. I was very excited that I would be able to create one using the 115s and 110s I had. I added cooking to my scribe, and, with the help of my guildmates, I've been collecting bark fragments in anticipation of Scroll Binders.

    So to see the numbers required to upgrade each scroll from especially 110 to 115 (which doubled) change so drastically from the Beta (and the documented UO playguide) is disheartening. That's why I am lamenting this unexpected change. IMO, the new ratios are too drastically different from the ones previously announced. That is why I recommended the following ratios (previously listed too):

    6 x 105 = 1 x 110
    8 x 110 = 1 x 115
    10 x 115 = 1 x 120

    I see people have feelings on both sides of the issue, thus I think a compromise is the best solution.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  40. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Well..... I can see now that this won't be of much use to me.

    So goes my dream of having a 120 magery scroll sometime in my game life.
     
  41. Ender76

    Ender76 Journeyman
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    why not just use the point ratios that have already been established in the most recent round of spring cleaning?

    105 ps = 100 pts
    110 ps = 500 pts
    115 ps = 1000 pts
    120 ps = 3500 pts
     
  42. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Along with all the other players, minus the guilds that control the spawns.
     
  43. Rainfo X

    Rainfo X Guest

    I agree that it's way too difficult to make a 120 ps at those turn-around ratios. 10 115s for a 120 itself seems like a bit too many scrolls for the extra 5 points. And the fact that you need a twelve 110s for a single 115, makes attempting conversion starting with 110s and working up to a 120 seem rather ridiculous. I mean who farms PSes all day every day anyways? I was in closed beta but I must have missed the thread, I say bring it back to the way it was or make it somewhat less scrolls required, it's not like it will actually devalue 120s in general, really, just give another way to attain them, it seems . I like the idea of scroll binders a lot I might add.
     
  44. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    Sounds like the Devs dropped some acid and played spin the bottle for decisions.

    While nerfing a system with promise, they cave in again to a few select people.

    Dyes for pets are shelved.

    Scroll binders are crap now.

    Greater Dragons are 5 slot Drakes.

    The thing is, that if these changes would of happened during Beta, they most likely would of sold less copies of SA.
     
  45. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
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    SOTS combined to 2.0 LOL what is the freaking point.............. what a waste of a good idea
    originally was set to 10.0- great Idea
    then was moved to 5.0- ok idea
    now 2.0- not smart
     
  46. Samaira

    Samaira Lore Master
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    This. If someone needs 3.2 in a skill to Legendary, that's going to involve some messing around that this idea could easily be tweaked to avoid. 1 binder at 2.0 plus a total of 1.2 in "loose" SOTs :rant2:
     
  47. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I hope the Devs are noticing this thread with 47 replies in half a day. Unlike the changes to Pet Dyes, the community-at-large was not engaged before the changes to Scroll Binders. The result is a system that is disappointing to many of us that looked forward to the originally proposed concept and had visions of finally being able to complete some of our character templates stuck at 115.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  48. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    Thank Goodness I have already bought and applied all of powerscrolls I will ever need. (cept for one 120 mysticism). This seems like too much of a pain in the posterior to even contemplate using.

    Personally, I have never liked the way we have to obtain the scrolls either. A few people with uber fast connections and hacks programs get them and the average player stands no chance in fel. So the poulace pays outlandish gold to the hackers to get the scrolls they need, making the hackers even richer.

    Don't say it aint like that, because on Atlantic, for the most part it is. Ive chars that are scrolled up with really good armor and weps that last all of 2 seconds in a fel dungeon. Sorry. I don't cheat there fore I dont stand a chance.

    Yes, I still take chances and hunt in fel. I go there alot. I even have housing there. Dont think im afraid to hunt in fel. I just hate the way some people, a few can get over on the rest of us by using cheating. Just like in IDOCs and placing houses.

    I was even a knight of justice from killing reds that attacked me while hunting solo. Now, you dont stand a chance unless you too are scripting with a certain program or speed hacking. I refuse to stoop to their level.

    So I have shelled out many many millions in gold for the scrolls. I have the uber accounts and resources to do so. Trying to fix this broken system is in my opinion a little too little a little too late. Fix the hacks and stop the cheats and then you have equality.
     
  49. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Can't say I really feel for or against this system. I will probably just sell the scrolls I have rather than try to fill up binders as I'm not doing enough champing to roll the same skill that many times. I think these work well for champ guilds who are going to have the quantity of the same skill and level, but on a casual basis it's much simpler for me to simply buy the end scroll. Which is cool, I don't mind doing that at all. But if this system was aimed at the casual champ hunter I think some tweaking might be necessary so it appeals over buying the 120 outright :)

    I think for skills where nobody wants the lower end scrolls, it'll be easier to pick up cheap scrolls and bind them up to a 120 one, but in all honesty I'm going to stick to buying and hunting for the powerscrolls I need rather than turning into a scroll collector.

    I'd like to see them a bit more like BOD books. For example say each had to contain just 1 skill but you could use it to store all your 5, 10, 15 scrolls. And like BOD books we could have part filled LBODs (in this case binders) and loose scrolls all in the same container. Then we could casually potter away at filling binders without filling houses with powerscrolls ;)

    Wenchy
     
  50. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    If it takes THIS to get a 110 scroll...........
    It takes THAT to get a 120 PS...............
    Then THAT is how many of THIS that it should take.