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Serious question about TOS

Discussion in 'UHall' started by altarego, Sep 30, 2009.

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  1. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Okay, so I've been recently back to UO (in an active way). I love the sandbox approach to UO and wanted to dig back into it. I've played since the original beta, but my current active account is 7yo.

    Tonight I was banned from the game for 24hr. Why? Because I tired of listening to bard and alchemy macros in the Luna Bank when I was trying to hire someone to identify my unknown seeds. Yes, I was actually trying to promote communication and commercialism between players on the Napa Valley shard.

    When I couldn't get attention (and I admit I was trying to *get* attention), I brought out my mage hooked up with some MR armor and invis'ed the hell out of the bank - indiscriminately.

    At no point in time did I cause harm. At no point did I interrupt gameflow or player experience. At no point did I violate any TOS rules whatsoever, because the only person who asked me to stop was a GM, when he put me in jail.

    Then, I was asked no questions. I was provided no opportunity to explain myself. I was no given a warning. I was given a canned response and simply banned for 24 hours.

    The game mechanics allow for blessing, protecting, and invis'ing of players in town. If this is unacceptable to most players, why is it an option? I freely explained my actions and explained to players who were "annoyed" that my actions had no material effect on their status or their game flow. Still I was reported.

    How is this even considered a viable option for dealing with any situation. Why is invis'ing someone an actual offense? If it is, why did the GM not warn me before taking retaliatory action? This is not the sandbox experience I remembered and appreciated.

    What next, can I be reported for not wearing the right colors? Can I be reported for not having a fashionable house? Can I be reported for low balling my items on my vendor?

    I was told to expect an E-mail from EA corp. with details, but it's been an hour and I've still received nothing. Is there some sort of quality control process? I don't mean to be an ass for no reason, but the principle of the matter bothers me. What sort of recourse do I have?
     
  2. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    *Shrug*

    Just a wild ... guess, it falls under the heading of "Unwanted Attention".

    I suspect that we see once again that people think they are free to do to others what ever they want to do, no matter how their actions affect others.

    You would think that at some point, the *cough* seasoned veteran would get a clue, that just because they say their actions do not affect others, that doesn't make it true. That in fact, it might be far wiser and more prudent to leave people alone that ask to be left alone. :pint:
     
  3. H2O

    H2O Guest

    This is about par for GM's to ban someone over something like this instead of banning people who run scripts 24/7 while afk.
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Invissing people is often used as a means of griefing.

    Showing up at an RPed political event, for example, and invissing people making speeches. Some guy used to look for me at the West Brit Bank, when I would try to sell goods there, and he'd keep invissing me, constantly. It made it impossible to sell anything, because someone would go to party me, or drop gold on me, and suddenly I wouldn't be there.

    You admit you were just trying to get attention. If no one wants to pay attention to you, why try to force them? That's rather childish. And I don't think that "sandbox" has now been defined to mean "license to act childish."

    Anyone of any experience at the game knows that attempting to ask someone to stop that kind of activity is likely to be pointless.

    Having said that, I'm surprised someone got a GM to respond. I've given up paging on those scripted bots that advertise commercial and virus sites. And I never even tried to page on that dude who used to follow me around and invis me constantly. It would, I felt, have been pointless in the extreme.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Or banning people for this over using speed hacks.

    Also, people beating on their annoying horses at the luna bank is unwanted attention to me, and harassment. Can you report people who do this? ;p
     
  6. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    The intent was to annoy people into giving you attention ... obviously you were on unstable ground right away.

    (but Luna bank is not a place you should go if you want meaningful interaction ... not that I have a good suggestion of where you should go)
     
  7. Dragonchilde

    Dragonchilde Guest

    I guess that whole "you have to move from the area before you can page for physical harassment" doesn't fly anymore. I don't hink they're following their own procedure as written.
     
  8. altarego

    altarego Guest

    I should clarify that my initial intention was to get attention, but not to myself necessarily. Instead, I was trying to identify the unattended and incessant bank macroers. The fact that I couldn't even have a decent conversation in the one place most likely to present a player with the skills to identify seeds was just incidental. As a matter of fact, I made it clear to the folks I was invis'ing that I would not longer invis them if they talked or moved or whatever.

    That was the part that irritated me. At no point in this whole process did I harrass a player that actually asked me to stop invis'ing *them*. They (and I assume the GM) just saw me invis'ing the people who were unattended.

    Again, while my initial actions were a bit snarky, the resolution to those actions clearly violated my right to run around and invis whoever I want. It wasn't even harmful or interruptive to gameplay.

    Look, if I'm in the wrong, I'll take responsibility for my actions. But I simply cannot believe that I wasn't even given the option to explain myself to the GM. Nor do I see where any of my actions were in violation of any TOS rule.

    Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.
     
  9. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    What you were doing WAS griefing. Personally, I think there should have just been a verbal warning. It wasn't that serious.
     
  10. altarego

    altarego Guest

    So, if folks set up a script to macro magery or chiv or necro and they flood/spam a communal meeting place, I can report them for griefing?
     
  11. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    No if folks invis you constantly,curse at you,Affect your actions in a specificaly negative way,follow you etc.. thats griefing.

    if am spamming I am the master over and over again thats not grifing if Im spamming altarego is "insert unwanted comment here" over and over thats griefing.
     
  12. Dragonchilde

    Dragonchilde Guest

    By the very definition of the process, the procedure wasn't followed properly. If you want to report someone for physical harassment, then you have to first ask them to stop, then move out of the area, and THEN you can report them if they continue to harass you. That's clearly not what happened here. The GM screwed up.
     
  13. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    What you need is a UO version of Johnnie Cochran(RIP). LOL J/K

    Seriously I think GMs SHOULD actually TALK to the person before banning them.

    But, hey this is UO you are guilty till you prove your innocent. Oh, but wait! I'm sorry you're not ALLOWED to prove anything so you're just guilty.

    Guess it's a good thing EA don't run the courts system, Hmm?!?!?
     
  14. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Thank you for your responses. In the end, it's probably not going to change anything but it feels good to bounce ideas off my peers. I think I would be less annoyed by this if I wasn't clearing out my seeds because I was transferring between homes and I have a limited time left to do so - so 24hrs is a kick in the tummy.
     
  15. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
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    Is plain ol BS to me, toss you in jail & let the Scripter continue to macro music or peace in the bank. Man ya gotta love the mentality of some GM's I have to say, its bad. 2 to one I can tell ya who it was scripting if you knew who was around. There are 5 to 6 that regularly script skills there. And the GM's do s^!t about it too, it's sad
     
  16. jaraxlebaenrae

    jaraxlebaenrae Journeyman
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    I sometimes think that alot of the script miners I see are actually gms ALTs..because some people no matter what you do they never get banned...like the guy who is constantly casting recall for an hour after you kill him...
     
  17. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    This is how I understand it. The GM did wrong by suspending you. There was a post not too long ago about this. If I was any good at searching, I would find it for you.
     
  18. So let me see if I understand this right..... you were invising people who apparently werent there because they wouldnt answer you when you talked to them, but yet one of them paged on you instead of saying stop first and you got a 24 hr ban???
    Sometimes I wish I could reach through the screen and wring a GMs neck for lack of customer service. I see people constantly afk macroing or afk scripting, people running around with inappropriate guild names and guild tags, etc ... I use to page on people like that but gave up mainly because we know the GMs wont do anything, so why bother?
    When I was dealing with a certain group of people a few months ago who constantly harrassed me over irl things and even followed me from shard to shard just to harrass me, guildies and myself paged and would always get canned responses and the harrassment would just continue unless I logged out. Where were the GMs then? Probably banning someone for invising ppl in the bank *shakes head* :cursing:
    Freakin ridiculus if you ask me.. I would be calling EA, but then again that would probably do you no good either, as their customer service is just as useless :(
    Sorry you got a 24hr ban though, I do agree it should've been a warning.
     
  19. I could understand if it was a single person, but does anyone actually expect every single person that was invis'd to leave the bank because of one person being annoying? I'm pretty sure this was what the GM was thinking when he did what he did. Not saying I quite agree with the way it was handled, but can see why "standard procedure" wasn't followed.
     
  20. lucksi

    lucksi Guest

    That sounds like they asked you to stop but you didnĀ“t.
     
  21. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I totally disagree, the GM did the right thing.

    Assume that the OP is like others that come here and the Truth is the last thing, if ever that will be said.

    Assume the OP was babbling, harassing etc everyone and they put him on ignore. You know the inconvenient fact that shows in the ToS and Game Mechanic that the Player has the right to NOT RESPOND TO ANOTHER PLAYER.

    Now then many if not all of these players send in a Report of the OP, the GM sees the behavior, KNOWS THEY HAVE HIM ON IGNORE AND YOU WANT TO TELL ME THE GM SCREWED UP?

    What I guess you want the GM to Suspend the players and tell them to NEVER EVER UPON PAIN OF PERMA BAN PUT A PLAYER ON IGNORE. That in fact they must always reply to that player or receive a PERMA BAN. That in fact that is a requirement of being in the Luna Bank, that you MUST REPLY TO EVERYONE THAT QUESTIONS YOU.

    Or is short, the 2nd grade Teachers of the world should reward Johnny for Pulling All The Girls Hair, every single time.

    No Sir, the GM did the right thing and UO becomes a much better place if more did as the GM did. :thumbsup:
     
  22. This is something I never quite understood... when I was having the problems I had, I was told by email that I HAD to tell them to stop, put them on ignore, leave the area and then page. Even though this is what I was told by someone from the UO Staff, the ppl still didnt get banned.
    Now you are saying that you dont have to tell them anything before paging on them.
    How does that work? How would it be different for one person than the next person?
     
  23. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    How does one tell some on to stop if they are on ignore?

    What you are describing is a GUIDELINE (vs hard core rule you do this or get fired) on how to resolve one on one harassment. If you look at the actions, then they are clearly defining a Stalker. And that GUIDELINE is acceptable for such behavior.

    Now then you have a GROUP of people at a common meeting place and the OP begins griefing/imposing HIS WILL UPON THE GROUP.

    You really want to give me the power to impose such a rule on every EM Ran Event? To prevent the EM from being able to take action because they must first ask everyone to put me on ignore and leave the area then report me? You seriously want that to be the RULE? :pint:
     
  24. From what I have seen happen at events on Origin in the past, the EMs have little control anyways. =/ They even got Mesanna involved once and the problems continued .. This is just my personal exp. but I think at events the EMs should have the ability to stick someone who is disruptive in jail.
    But as for this problem... if the people were actually at the computer and not just afk banksitting, and this guy was just griefing them that bad, they could've said stop, you're harrassing me, then ignored him and left the immediate area and paged... He should've been given the opportunity to atleast know he was being disruptive to these people and stop his actions on his own.
     
  25. Chrissay_

    Chrissay_ Guest

  26. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Good so now I can change my Bank Macro to say, EVERY ONE AT THE BANK YOU MUST SAY HELLO TO ME OR I WILL GRIEF YOU AND REPORT YOU AS A AFK MACROER. I AM AFTER ALL JUST GUARDING YOU.

    After a while I can be guaranteed they have me on ignore and YOUR RULE GETS THEM BANED for NOT COMPLYING TO MY DEMAND.

    How far down this hole of the sublimely ridiculous do you want to go? :pint:
     
  27. Honestly, if you are just sitting there, how hard is it to type stop, you're harrassing me? Am I saying you should have to? No, but its not that hard to do. It takes a whole 10 seconds maybe. I'm just saying it could've been avoided altogether if maybe someone would've said, please stop, you're harrassing me. =/ I know you dont see it that way and thats ok, I dont expect you to agree with me. You are obviously looking to argue and I'm not really here to argue, I just voiced my opinion, sorry if my opinion was wrong in your eyes.
     
  28. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Very interesting indeed, one voices ones opinion then proceeds to argue their opinion and decides it is time to exit by saying I only voiced my opinion nothing more and I am sorry it was wrong in your eyes.

    That is certainly one way.

    A far more honest and direct way, is to say we have differing opinions, we have stated them so now it is time to move on.

    One could say that one way shows respect for differing opinions.

    The other way is just a simple Day Care Psycho Babble Game, much like the OP played, presumably in game and most certainly here on the forum looking for attention, in any form.
     
  29. I will agree with you on that, I could've said it differently.
    I was simply stating it how I saw it, even questioned the difference between the situations. You stated your opinion, I just didnt agree, so argued or debated the issue. The reason I left it as I did was because even though that was my opinion, I was being "yelled" at for it being my opinion.
    I am able to look at it from both sides though and having stated my opinion and seeing your point of view as well, yes, it is time to leave it alone and agree to disagree on some of it. :)
     
  30. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    Since when did you determine it was YOUR right to FORCE people to talk, move etc.? Many folks go to the bank to hang while they do something else....I'll go there if I'm fighting then need a restroom break or beer run. What you did was griefing, plain and simple. You could have spammed what you needed like everyone else does and it would have been fine. Conversely, turn off the music so you don't need to hear the bards. Next time thing twice before acting like a petulant two year old.:thumbdown:
     
  31. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    To the OP: Do this. Just send a polite email expressing what you were thinking at the time and clarify that you weren't trying to grief people and that you are sorry your actions caused problems etc. When a GM takes an action it really isn't finalized, there is a review process set in place for the players to submit their side of the story for others to hear and review. Bans and warnings have been overturned before.

    It didn't used to be against the rules to invis other players, my memory may be faulty but I think that rule has been in place a couple years now. You might want to review the ToS and get up to date with the rules.
     
  32. altarego

    altarego Guest

    This an interesting take on the issue. I could turn it around and say:

    Since when did you determine it was YOUR right to force me to turn off my music, take the effort to ignore people spamming, and make other efforts to interact with players, etc.? Many folks go to the bank to hang while they roleplay or are actively involved with the game...I'll actually go to my private house if I'm fighting, then need a restroom break or beer run. What you did was interrupt my gameplay experience, plain and simple. You could have asked me to stop what I was doing like everyone else does and it would have been fine. Conversely, don't spam macros (with text) for hours on end in public spaces so that players have the opportunity to interact in a positive manner. Next time, think twice before criticizing my "disruptive behavior" by assuming that you're *entitled* to your own style of "disruptive behavior.:thumbup:
     
  33. H2O

    H2O Guest

    GM reviews is a joke. You will always get a email reply back that is just as canned as the messages you get from the in game GM's.
     
  34. Chadlo

    Chadlo Guest

    A nugget of info and then a comment:

    1) Appeal it. It won't get your suspension gone but it will remove the mark. The proper protocol is for someone to ask you to stop by name, you were banned inappropriately. A lot of people don't know you can have the mark removed, and you should do the appeal immediately. It's 100% win.

    2) That's trammies for you :) People consider this... When you page on people and they get banned for something silly like this it might not seem like a big deal, but if it's the 3rd time, they are perma banned.

    There are already NOT ENOUGH PLAYERS on any shard except Atlantic. Do you really want to help EA thin the ranks, make the game not make money and ruin it for everyone cuz there is no one to play with? Consider leaving the area before you page.
     
  35. Chadlo

    Chadlo Guest

    Well then you should be banned too. It is against the terms of service to be connected to the game AFK for any reason (including bathroom).

    So please tell us how you violate the game rules and then **** on this guy, pot calling the kettle black.
     
  36. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    Wrong. It is not agains the TOS to be connected and inactive, it IS agains the TOS to be afk and doing something in game.
     
  37. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    The difference is I didn't "force" you to do anything. I didn't get tired of you looking for a plant identifier so I didn't randomly invis you. You took it upon yourself to start invising people you "felt" were afk or non responsive. Nowhere is it required for people respond to you, but you feel as if it is. Bottom line, if you want music in the background, then deal with the bards. People "spamming" items for sale is a normal activity, and they certainly are not afk if they are looking to buy/sell. Bottom line, if someone is afk at Luna (and not macroing), how is that disruptive? Answer: It's not. Which is why you're spending 24 hours on the Stratics forums complaining rather than playing.
     
  38. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Again, I'm going to assume you misunderstood my response instead of intentionally ignoring its content. This topic was originally a bit of a rant, but it got me thinking about some of the more ingrained default responses to generic actions in UO.

    I was only *initially* looking for someone to identify my seeds. After that, I was more interested in accosting (yes, actively, not passively!) players that were flooding my journal, screen space, and sound space with their actions. Is the act of barding or casting a necro spell on yourself fundamentally different than casting such a spell on another, when both are perfectly legal within the game mechanics? I mean, it seems that invis'ing someone else is only arbitrarily illegal...because someone, somewhere said so.

    I didn't take it upon my self to start invis'ing anyone based on what I 'felt'. I simply and indiscriminately started invis'ing everyone. If anyone had moved or asked me to stop, I would have. Instead, I had people run up and accuse me of being a scripter (because I was spamming invis like mad, yo). Then, a few minutes later I had a GM teleport me to prison where I was told that I was interfering with player gameplay experience - and subsequently banned.

    Interfering how? I could see it might be disruptive if there was a legitimate transaction occurring and the target player kept being made invisible. I could also see this being an issue if a guild war was being staged in town and the player was being invis'd after being targeted, ruining line-of-sight.

    Of course, no one is required to respond to me. But they aren't required to report me either. Nor am I required to have to put someone in party mode in order to complete a conversation because the public communication and sound space are being flooded by macroers.

    If I want music in the background, I do expect it to be interrupted by monster growls, footsteps, statue gurgles, and the occasional bard, or "I wanna suck some iceee....". However, it doesn't mean that those practices should prevent me, in a guard-protected environment, from doing things that should be expected in a communal center, like Luna. People were *not* spamming messages to buy or sell items or services.

    How many bard skills or necro spells actually have a use any city - to the point of obviating other options? Why do they trump invis'ing? It all seems rather arbitrary to me. Regardless, I would have been more than happy to explain my frustration to an unfortunately overworked GM. I'm not blaming them, they were just doing their job. I'm blaming the system that makes their (and my) life so insipidly difficult.

    Oh, and I'm spending 24 hours on Stratics because I've been banned, duh. Do people not understand the concept of a tautology?
     
  39. Chadlo

    Chadlo Guest

    http://www.uo.com/agreement.html

    http://www.uo.com/conduct.html

    I stand corrected. It's been awhile since I read these two things, and now I am very happy you said that (which made me look).

    To all the Magaledan or whatever her name is who is an admin here, please read the UO ToS and RoC. IT DOES NOT STATE ANYWHERE THAT YOU CAN NOT RUN A THIRD PARTY APPLICATION, NOR DOES IT SAY YOU CAN'T DO IT UNATTENDED. IN FACT IN MAKES NO MENTION OF ANY OF THOSE ACTIVITIES.
     
  40. You didn't look hard enough.

    See this link.
     
  41. altarego

    altarego Guest

    Something that was a mild inconvenience is now an imminent threat. I finally received my EA ~1hr after being banned yesterday. The e-mail arrived at 7:30pm local time; it is now 7:50pm local time of the next dayand I am still unable to log in. Currently I'm now 24hrs past receiving the banning notice and 25+ hours after being notified by the GM. This puts my prior house inventory in a bit of jeopardy.

    Can someone tell me if the 24hr ban period is hard and fast or is it server-based, i.e. do I have to wait for the next server up? Thank you for your comments and suggestions.
     
  42. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Dude... There is nothing Stratics can do to help you here. Your beef is with EA. Take it there.
     
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