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Seven Potential Voter Solutions To Combat Ballot Box Stuffing In City Elections

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Nails Warstein, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    Many complain about the election system, and I can sympathize. Some have come up with solutions, but few are viable. I proposed these ideas many elections ago which I believe could easily remedy the problem. Yes these steps can be interpreted as draconian. Any or all could be used. Some would be easier to implement than others. I placed them in order of difficulty for the developers and players to do.

    1) Voting accounts must be active more than 30 days before being allowed to vote like receiving gifts.

    2) Require all voters to pay 2 million gold for the Viscount title
    Require all candidates to pay 50 million gold for the Duke title.

    3) Require all voters to be Adored, require all candidates to be Venerated

    4) Reset every players's declared citizenship, then:
    A) Require all voters to complete 10 trader quests in order to become that city's citizen.
    B) Require all candidates to complete 50 trader quests in order to be nominated for that city.

    5) Create a player quest specific to each city for players to learn the history of that city and its most famous residents in order to become a citizen.
    Should take an average time of 30 minutes to complete.

    Ideas presented by other players I had previously believed not possible due to coding nightmare. Would be nice if a developer could chime in on what is possible and what is not possible. Thank you!

    6) One vote per account only, no more than one total.

    7) Tie voting to one vote per house placed on a shard, and can only vote on the shard the house is placed on.

    I think my ideas in addition to these ones which basically already exist will make a difference.
    -Continue 1 vote per account per shard
    -Can't be young, or on a free trial account.
    -Replace Governors who miss 2 consecutive meetings without alerting the Event Moderator of their absence in advance.

    Yes players will complain about the expense of time, gold and resources to vote, but if you really are invested in the process, and want to prevent so called corruption, it must be harder to vote. I wish it were that way in real life.
     
    #1 Nails Warstein, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
    Mithryl Elves, Modoc, obeeee and 5 others like this.
  2. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Very good ideas. Like you said, can't have it both ways.

    Right now the system is easily accessible to everyone, but also very flawed. Putting in an hour worth of effort, plus gold / items would definitely calm down x-shard voting, and while not solving the problem of voting on large amounts of multiple accounts at least a very substantial amount of game-time would have to be invested.

    Im not sure about the gold req, maybe a craftable donation like 1000 shields 1000 swords could be used intead of 2mil if someone didnt have much UO gold, 25000 swords 25000 shields used instead of 50mil. Something to convert the gold value into gameplay / time value, but also something that isnt common in bulk (definitely something Not stackable)
     
  3. Ox_AO

    Ox_AO Adventurer

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    Make them take a test see if they can read
     
  4. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    1, 2 and 5 are good ideas. 1 and 2 should always apply and 5 should only have to be done the first time you declare citizenship for a certain city. Not sure how I feel about 3 and 4. Being Respected is suffice to be able to vote. Doing all those quests is too time consuming, and in the posters own words, come off as draconian. I'd rather see a city specific quest expanded (maybe more than half an hour, offered only a few times a week so that you have to run it with other citizens... something along those lines).

    In my humble opinion, there's also about 1-2 governorships too many. I'm not sure if every city realistically deserves it's own governor, although I won't mention specific cities here. Just a thought.
     
  5. Exploit_SX

    Exploit_SX Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
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    We need some of those idea's for sure after the whole election situation in Britain on Atlantic this past couple of days, where Longtooth just ran up the vote's for Solus by getting everyone he knew from other shards to vote for him.
     
    #5 Exploit_SX, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  6. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    I would agree with all of that @Nails Warstein

    Only thing i would add is this:

    1. All city buffs be only allowed in Trammel/malas/ish/ter mur.

    2. Or allow reds to be governor/citizens of bucs den in felucca To properly balance PvP out.
     
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  7. Aedon Durreah

    Aedon Durreah Village of Aegis
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    For most of the towns something more on the level of Mayor or alderman would be better. Sort of odd in the first place having Governors under a King. How about some Dukes and Viscounts?
     
  8. Ox_AO

    Ox_AO Adventurer

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    You guys are all nuts to bring in democracy / republic into a game that is monarchy based

    It isn't even logical

    I see three pics on this thread showing in games times could be family crescents. Nails looks like he is trying to show himself as a Baron. Yet, you ignore the theme of the game and use a system of modern times? Why?
     
    #8 Ox_AO, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
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  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Sounds to me like some of you want the Governorship to be for the rich and those who have 100 hours a week to put into playing UO.
     
  10. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    QFT...la
     
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  11. Joshua Ravenloft

    Joshua Ravenloft Journeyman
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    True that... The system is fine as is IMHO, and doesn't need changing. If Nails doesn't like some of the features then no one is forcing him to run for leadership....
     
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  12. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i dont think the current system really effects Nails, he is just trying to make it better / more fair for those with complaints. As it is now, there are a list of people who (probably including myself, and i also would support a change to they system) who can basically just take any city with a few hours of icqs / gating in players. Its all about who you know and winning currently has absolutely nothing to do with the actual game, or the shard the election is taking place.
     
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  13. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    Absolute NO on requiring candidates to have to pay 50 million for the duke title (or do some ridiculous gather grind if they can't pay it) to run. NO NO NO NO NO. 50M may be nothing for some posters in this thread, but it is a lot of money to many players. No monetary requirement should ever be in place for running for governorship, ever. Or for voting.

    The amount of money you have affecting your candidacy is something we need to get AWAY from. The system you have described, Nails, will still systematically benefit the superrich. No thank you. The current system is flawed as hell and super corrupt, but that is because it already effectively does what you are suggesting, just not quite as expensively. Making it cost more to buy an election isn't the answer.

    Voting should either be a TOTAL of five votes per account, spendable on any shard (so you would probably spend them on your home shard or shards), or one vote per account period. This cross shard vote buying is nonsense. No player should be able to take any governor seat they want on any shard because they mostly play on a different one. That is completely farcical and antithetical to the spirit of the system. You have more power on a shard you don't play than on one you do. Absurd. Cross shard voting needs to end. If you don't play on or care about a shard, then you shouldn't have a say in its leadership.

    Or each account should have to set a 'home' shard and only be able to vote there. Yeah, people with more accounts will still have more power, but that will always be the case regardless.

    And yeah, governors who can't be bothered to show up or at least notify the King (the EM) that they can't make it need to be booted.

    The quest idea is kinda neat. I'd like there to be more city-specific history, and that seems like a great way to do it. 50 trade quests is too much though. Not everyone can be in UO that much, and that is just a grind.

    Totally agree with no trial or young accounts being able to vote. (I thought they had fixed that already though.)

    In fact, I say take out the ability to 'buy' city loyalty with ingots/boards/whatever entirely. With the quest system, it is no longer necessary, and it makes it way too easy to buy elections with swarms of newbies and lots of money for ingots.

    I think the trade buff needs to be rethought too. I think that in any city with an active trade deal, each citizen should be able to choose his/her own buff. I've said it since day one--the current system makes people loyal to the trade guilds, not to the cities. Also the buff seems to be a major sticking point between rp and pvp types--let's ease that tension by either changing the trade deal or decoupling it from the governor system entirely. It's never been anything but a nuisance for rp governors, a huge gold sink for poorer governors, and a bone of contention for pvp governors.
     
  14. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    Check these locked Catskill threads for recent examples
    http://community.stratics.com/threads/governor-list.328543/
    http://community.stratics.com/threads/continuing-the-discussion-on-competition.328617/

    I did say any or all to these. The Traders Quest is easy, takes 5 - 10 minutes to do 1 quest. I just threw out numbers like 10 + 50, but these aren't arbitrary. Plus the Scrolls of Transcendence/Guild Sign rewards you get from doing this quest will easily bankroll buying any titles you want. Once you have done these quests, paid your dues (like taxes) its done, its done, you are a citizen. Now no one who hasn't invested a little time, gold, and elbow grease can vote to stuff the ballot box. Only those who do care about this system will bother with it.

    Here is a video of me doing the Trader's Quest starting around the 17 minute mark
    http://www.twitch.tv/stratics/c/5692652


    Hate to burst your bubble, but the Ultima series brought Lord British from our modern age into this extra-dimensional place called Sosaria, which is why Mesanna has no issues creating clawed bath tubs, coffee makers, and the like. The game is not based in our past, so elements of our modern age do mix with the magic and medieval feel of UO.
    I haven't had any issues winning under the current system, I will continue to win the way it is whether I want to or not, no problem. Regardless what anyone might think, I am offering solutions for those who are not like me. Players will disagree with me based on false assumptions about me. Most people who know me, don't make
    judgments on me. They know that I am humble simple player who does his best to help anyone in this game for free, I volunteer thousands of hours of my free time towards helping players I don't even know, total strangers, despite dealing with real traumatic life problems.
    I do agree with this sentiment. I would rather wealth not be a factor in determining who can vote and run for governor. I sincerely do hate any aspect regarding it. However the monetary numbers I gave as examples were not arbitrary. In real life candidates have to raise money for advertising, volunteers and supplies to run for office, why should UO be that much different?

    I take pity on players who don't have the time to earn gold/ingots to participate in the system the way it currently is. However those who really feel that the Governor system is an important feature of UO, so much that they run for office, and sit in office for 6 months in a stretch, should see value in investing their hard earned gold to get there.

    I know players who start playing UO and on their first day, they sell whatever gifts they have in their backpacks, then buy something cheap off a vendor, and spam resell it for more in general chat bank sitting in Luna. These same players in a matter of days or few short weeks eventually have rare billion gold outfits to show off while bank sitting.

    Granted we aren't all hustlers, movers, shakers, brokers, event goers, crafters, or whatever it might take to make bank in UO, but if you don't horde what you have, vendor it, spam in general chat to sell it, you can get ahead. I think a one time investment towards something you care so much about, this governor system will be worth it, and create a lot less drama we are currently experience.

    My ideas aren't the end all be all, relax, let it sink in, and come up with better viable solutions to stop the voter ballot box stuffing, and I will support you.
     
    #14 Nails Warstein, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  15. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    The bulk of your solutions requires throwing more money at it. That offers nothing to those not like you. It actually reinforces the ability of those like you (players with loads of gold) to more easily throw the system, should they so choose.

    So you hate it, but that's the way it should be?

    You can campaign in UO just fine without it being a massive gold sink. The attempt to make the governor system a gold sink (via the trade buff) was decried from the get-go, as well it should have been. The appropriate place for a gold sink is on high end trade, not RP governorship.

    I did, in this thread and elsewhere. I've posted many times about the governor system. I've emailed Mesanna. I'm apparently not important (or rich?) enough to be heard.

    If the devs REALLY wanted good feedback about the governor system, they'd form a focus group out of some of the people who have been multiple-term governors and who have strong histories of working to make their governorships interesting and engaging. The shard EMs could probably easily rattle off a few names of who has worked to make the system a success on their shard. Engage those people.
     
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  16. Spock's Beard

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    Wait I thought voting was locked to the shard your house is on. It's not?

    lol
     
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  17. Darius Bloodbain

    Darius Bloodbain Adventurer
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    You know, Ive probably worked as hard as anyone on my home shard being Governor. Worked hard in deeds like keeping trade deals on my city stone going out of my own pocket to do it when three quarters of the citys had no trade deals offered. Ive even went as far as placing a city governors vendor in Luna, giving all the funds off said vendor to be distributed equally between the city stones. This was not 1k here and there, this was millions. I did all this, and only won this term by a very wee narrow margin. While some governors who maybe if any had placed a trade deal on their stones once or twice in 6 months ran virtually un-opposed. Go figure. It should not be a popularity contest. It should be someone who is willing to keep the trade deals going on the stones, and report citizens concerns to the king, and do things for the good of their city and their shard as a whole, like helping out a new or returning player. Or rezzing someone or their pet when they call for help in gen chat, or helping someone looking for crafting supplies, if they can help at all.
    I for one do not agree that it should take loads of gold or endless time farming stuff to cast a vote. I do believe the account should be at least active for more than 30 days to have voting rights.
    Theres no fool proof system to keep things totally fair no matter what you do.
    As for me, I will try to do the best job I can, same as last term. Will I run again?
    depends on how I feel after this one.
     
  18. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

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    my only good idea is ; u must have a house on the shard to vote
     
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  19. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    I like the concept of having to do trade deals in order to vote,
     
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  20. Ma Nerva

    Ma Nerva Visitor

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    how bout one vote per acct per shard that will stop the cross shard vote trading
     
  21. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    really aint gonna have to do all that to vote...jesus...
     
  22. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    think we need to fix better issues than this first....
     
  23. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    THIS.
     
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  24. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    1 VOTE PER ACCOUNT, 1 VOTE ON ONE SHARD. NO X SHARD VOTING
     
  25. Angel of Sonoma

    Angel of Sonoma Certifiable
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    For anyone that lives in the vicinity of Washington DC (which includes Northern VA where the Broadsword/EA offices are located) the area is saturated by politics. It was only a matter of time when the r/l political ambience infiltrated UO.
     
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  26. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    BOOOO
    DIS WAS POSSED TO BE A REPUBLIC, NOT A DEMOCARCY (USA)
     
  27. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Per the fiction, Britannia is an elective monarchy, not a hereditary monarchy.
     
  28. TandaBSK

    TandaBSK Seasoned Veteran
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    The Governor's system is a bit wonky, and it has it's issues, most I would wager who are Governors are Venerated already. I DON'T want a fancy title on my Governor she is a citizen and that's it because the scenario for Minoc Great Lakes has gone from being a city of Nobility to one without when the last character left the game, court order etc to grant the citizen's the right to govern themselves.

    Many of us also do the trade quests rather faithfully, for those who have been around since the beginning, the ability to continue to get gold for trade deals without having to hock everything you own to raise the money is worth the time! 2 mil a week may not seem like a lot to some but it is costly when factored over 3 or 6 months, and over the last 18 months that adds up.

    I do think that 30 day timers for account age would be good.
     
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  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I agree with @Dot_Warner THIS X10! They know who does what.
     
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  30. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    DIS BEES WHY PITMUCK BEES A SOVERIGN STATE. LIKES NATIVE AMERS HABE NO GUBNORS, NOS BLACKTHORN GUY. ONLY GOBLINS
     
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  31. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    I say voting be restricted by counties... draw up lines on the maps and declare owners of those houses be citizens of the "closest" town..... get really RP with it... :)
     
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  32. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    Updated with ideas presented by other players, ideas I had previously believed not possible due to coding nightmare. It would be nice if a developer could chime in on what is possible and what is not possible, so we can stop debating on what is not possible. Thank you!
     
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  33. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    KILL ALL KINGS LACKYS
    OZOG FER KING !!
     
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  34. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I live in Newcastle Township for the most part... I would vote in our own Governor but we can't have one.
     
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  35. Ox_AO

    Ox_AO Adventurer

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    Clearly that isn't true at all. Lord Britain wasn't elected.
     
  36. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    There was no lord Britain.... There was a Lord British.
     
  37. TandaBSK

    TandaBSK Seasoned Veteran
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    There was a suggestion made by a Governor on Great Lakes today that perhaps the 30 day age timer and a shut down of being able to buy loyalty with ingots, boards etc be put in place during voting week? So Trade Quests would still work but no last minute creation of city loyalty just to vote. Wouldn't prevent pre-meditated work but it would make a dent.
     
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  38. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Lord British, originally from Earth, was given his crown by the people of Akalabeth after routing Mondain from the land. His half of the kingdom would become known as the Lands of Lord British, then later as Britannia (after Mondain's death at the hands of the Stranger).

    Long after British left Britannia (essentially he abdicated), Casca was elected King Pro-tempore by what remained of the Ruling Council.

    After Casca's well-deserved death, Dawn was made Queen by "common consent," i.e. elected.

    Blackthorn's coronation is a bit more nebulous. However, one could infer from Dupre's words during the coronation that Blackthorn was at the very least appointed to the throne via a groundswell of support amongst the nobility and common citizens alike.
     
  39. THP

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    sorry guys/gals u will have to live with this......every other aspect in UO as been exploited in some way or form sooo this as too....this is UO....people like to cheat and break rules....simples
     
  40. Ox_AO

    Ox_AO Adventurer

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    Lord British won it most likely by some kind of council of nobles. How ever it was done it wasn't done by popular vote.
     
    #40 Ox_AO, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  41. mghtyshark

    mghtyshark Adventurer

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    The name of this thread is " Seven Potential Voter solutions ...................." What if we change the name of the thread to "One Potential Voter Solution......" The systems should be taken away. We got a new King, but I never seen him around, and in my opinion, he should be the one ruling Sosaria as this is a monarchy driven "Society". I do not remember that corruption and democracy was part of a Monarchy. What have the Govs. done so far anyway that has help the community I ask?
     
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  42. Pandora_CoD

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    ABSOLUTELY, 100% ... voting should only be allowed to characters that OWN HOUSES ON THOSE SHARDS. Period. No different than real life when you own a house in one State, which is where you hold residency, you cannot fly to another state and vote there. Simply not allowed. Bribery and all that does happen, but only within the confines of the state you're voting for. The crooks aren't out buying votes in other states!

    And honestly at a much larger scale than just elections, the poor service level and lack of response of the Game Masters when called upon leaves people exposed to various degrees of bully tactics and harassment and Broadsword... or rather EA... needs to answer for that through LEGAL channels in my honest opinion. Now a days, people getting bullied and harassed leads to VERY VERY real concequences. We cannot allow anyone to feel that way! I would feel utterly destroyed to hear someone might take their life over things that happen in UO. And folks may think that's silly, but that ABSOLUTELY happens. I've seen it in other games. It is Broadsword's responsibility to ensure their service protects those people.
     
  43. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    OZOG FER KING NO NEED FER ELECTIONS DIN
     
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  44. TandaBSK

    TandaBSK Seasoned Veteran
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    I don't know about Governor's on other shards, on Great Lakes we've hosted tournaments, done rp events focused on EM/game fiction, we've done an auction, Yule Journey, Ostara events, All Hallows eve events. Some gift gold, some gift nothing, some are hunts to raise funds for city stones. The hope is to try to get people to interact.

    If the King appoints Governors, how does that fit with the EM's cardinal rule that they cannot show favoritism???

    Ownership of a house would make voting shard specific sort of. I have many friends who have houses on more than one shard, and then what of the play who may want to vote but doesn't own a house any where?
     
  45. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
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    OZG FER KING
    FAVORITIZEM YOOS BETS
    MEEES LIKE PRESSIES
     
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  46. Spock's Beard

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    People who have more than one account get to vote once per account, which is a huge improvement over being able to vote on every single shard per account.

    People who can't be arsed to farm 30k and plunk down a 7x7 don't get to vote.

    I don't see the problem.
     
  47. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    exactly, i dont see how a person's RL budget for UO should guarantee a win for for the elections. Voting with 20 - 50 accounts per person is just unfair, which requiring a house to vote wouldnt solve, as some of those people have all those houses on one shard. This is what the current system balances out.

    The system really just cant be fair as long as people can have more than 1 account. Thats why i wrote up my system that favors gameplay over votes.
     
  48. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    Sadly all that will happen with any of these suggested changes is the price of votes will just go up, and then really only the super rich can win the hardcore elections.
     
  49. Modoc

    Modoc Journeyman

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    I Know I've heard this idea in other thread, Seems Simple enough, 1 Acct 1 Vote. pretty straight forward even. Would put an Instant stop to XShard Voting
    Sure would like to hear a Devs point of view on this.
     
  50. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    Just like RL :D