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Should EA make vendor search engine?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Splup, Apr 25, 2009.

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Should EA make vendor search engine?

  1. Yes

    150 vote(s)
    80.6%
  2. No

    31 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. I don't care

    5 vote(s)
    2.7%
  1. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Heya,

    Most of us know the search engines which search items from Luna vendors. Then problem is that this gives the Luna vendors Huge advantage compared to other vendors. Atleast I can't be arsed to be going through tons and tons of vendors and items when I can just use search engine which shows exactly where I find the item I'm looking for.

    EA has the vendor item info on servers all the time, so making a search engine should be possible. I honestly think EA should make engine which covers all vendors, since the Luna search engines are there to stay. That would be the only way for EA to balance the situation.
     
  2. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Yes yes yes a thousand times yes, for crying out loud if people can achieve this without being members of the dev team i see no reason why it cannot be implemented, one of the things that appeals to me about most other mmorpgs is thier vendor/auction systems.

    shame the rest doesn't measure up to uo even now imo!
     
  3. Nex Anima

    Nex Anima Guest

    Honestly no, while it would be helpful i can't even count the times i was looking for one item and stumbled across another i hadn't thought of. that in itself promotes the economy. If going as far as making a vendor search engine, might as well make an auction house like in Final fantasy online. because all that will happen is it will drive people to sell either A.) higher and drive up the prices as macroers will have an even easier way to sell their ill gotten goods, or B.) make people drop their prices extremely low to compete with each other. Now if they had a better setup making it easier to properly label all your wares then that would be far more helpful.:thumbsup:
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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  5. Grumm

    Grumm Guest

    Yes for me please.

    Half the vendors I come across have the "shop not yet named" tag on them. The rest are labeled uber, leet and awesome in some form or another. Very few shop names resemble what they are selling. You can't leave out all the vendors that are empty that you have to double click to see they have nothing for sale.

    I was trying to find a specific item last night. I spent over an hour searching the mislabeled vendors with no luck. I have limited time to play as it is and failing to find what I needed means I have to use most my play time tonight trying to find it.

    A vendor search sytsem would let people enjoy the game more and spend less time double clicking vendors just to see empty packs. Prices would become more in line with each vendor, whether that be for better or for worse. Seeing how the economy is already ruined, I fail to see how it could get any worse.

    Some people love to window shop and that is fine, but some players are just looking for a specific item. Trying to find that specific item can prove to be real frustrating under the current system.

    A vendor search system would still let people browse wares either the traditional way we have now, or by using the vendor search system. Players that just want a specific item could use a vendor search system and be back to playing in minutes.

    Allowing players to better label their vendors wont help much with speeding up the search process. You would still have to go from vendor to vendor and seach their wares in hopes they have what you want. Just because a vendor is labeled for the item you want, it doesn't mean they currently have it for sale.
     
  6. BadManiac

    BadManiac Guest

    StarWars Galaxies has the best vendor search system ever made in any mmo ever. UO could do with something similar. And you'd still find oddball items to buy since you still have to go TO the vendor to buy the item, the search only tells you which vendor has it and where it is.
     
  7. ...just to reiterate my vote:

    NO!

    It would be yet another device to further diminish any immersiveness that manages to remain. :)
     
  8. christy1221

    christy1221 Slightly Crazed
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    I would use it :thumbsup:
     
  9. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    absolutly I have yet to hear a good argument against it !
     
  10. Mirage

    Mirage Guest

    You could still shop that way if you want. Just don't use the search engine....no?

    Mir
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The only one I can think of is Dor's: It would potentially be another loss of immersion. It's very hard to think of a plausible RP explanation for such a database. Sure I could think of one. Try this: The realm keeps careful track of vendors for tax purposes, and decided to make the information public to help commerce. But it feels like a major reach, doesn't it.

    And the counter-argument to that: The existence of at least 2 "illegal" and unofficial databases that are widely known and widely used, and overwhelmingly showcase Luna vendors, already kills any immersion to the shopping part of this game.

    Any loss of immersion for an official database is more than compensated for by the positive effects.

    Does someone know of another good argument against this?

    And does someone know database programming well enough to be able to speculate intelligently about how hard this would be for them to set up, and why they haven't done it already?

    -Galen's player
     
  12. Nok

    Nok Lore Master
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    Ditto. It would be an equal trade off.

    If Supreem reads this, I can imagine him turning "a whiter shade of pale". ;) There is just no way the current game databases and server code could possibly support this idea. The CPU cycles and resources needed to pull & drive the data would slow the game to a crawl.

    To pull off this idea, the databases would need to be converted, and server code rewritten. It would be a HUGE project.
     
  13. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I disagree with that statement :)

    Just go to any well-informed NPC and ask if they have heard of item X in their travels - word spreads quickly from one merchant to another of the strange and exotic items sort in distant corners of the land.

    I'd argue that it's better for immersion to believe that there is a constant flow of news and gossip on the street corners and market squares than to have the career merchants of cities be completely devoid of any knowledge of what wares have been seen in the markets.

    ( thinking of such a database as gossip amongst city merchants would also provide a RP justification for an imperfect database created from a one-a-day snapshot of what was available on vendors at sever-up )
     
  14. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    I guess everyone is using their shady contacts in Britannia's black market or thieves guilds right now. ;)
     
  15. HillBilly

    HillBilly Guest

    If its possible, then yes, this should be done.
     
  16. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Shopping vendors isn't immersive at all. Its tacky and boring and really makes no sense from an rp standpoint.

    "Hey, Tom the Vendor, I am looking for a Soul Seeker sword. Do you have one for sale?"

    "No idea. But feel free to dig through my 500 bags, pouches and chests to see if you find one."

    "Thanks, Tom."

    two hours later....

    "Well, Tom. You have no Soul Seekers so I will ask your neighbor here. Bob, I am looking for a Soul Seeker sword. Do you have one for sale?"

    rinse and repeat.

    Meanwhile, I could have been spending that time actually being immersed in the RP game that I play.
     
  17. Divster

    Divster Guest



    If that was really the case the ones that are available now that cover luna and tokuno areas wouldn't be feasible, the devs have far more resources than the people who made them. Sure it would be incorporating a far greater area but if this idea was endorsed it would not be that hard
     
  18. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    I say yes because TWO are already in operation and they don't reach out past Luna. Except for one that does Zento city now as well. Not only are these search engines already damaging the community they close other shops outside of these towns. I took down and entire crafters hall because it made no gold. Why come to my vendors and shift through them if you can just type

    "Savage Kin paint"

    In one of the search engines and find a better price then mine and know exactly where it is at. The fact that these already exist in Ultima Online should be reason enough for the team to do it. So really its helping the other people now. Not just big Luna vendor sellers that jack up the prices because they are the only ones on the search engine.
     
  19. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Linking the rest of the game into a central vendor database would be a good thing as it would set up a new dynamic that would allow people not only to undercut the monopoly of Luna vendors, but do so in such a way that people can actually LOCATE The item without running for hours through the lands.

    For all of its faults as a game, one of the best aspects of WoW was the centralization of the auction house. You could find what you were looking for as well as play the market on various items as a sub-game. It didn't "ruin" sales outside of the auction house as the /Trade channel was constantly busy as well.

    Might make for a good use of Public Bulletin Boards at banks if they had this functionality. It would bring people to different banks based on the one that they like best asthetically instead of simply piling into Luna because of how it is set up.
     
  20. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    However, since there are people that are insanely wealthy thanks to Luna (or cheating), and many of them are complete a**holes who only care about money, it's most likely that if EA put something like that into the game those people would simply buy everything possible on the shards cheaper than their own prices and the end result would be the same.. you'd have to go to specific people to get anything, especially since there are plenty of scripters who could monitor the list 24 hours a day (could set up a complex script to buy any of a specific item thats cheaper than your price the moment it showed up on the list, im sure). And they wouldn't even have to sell the items, either! Having unlimited access to buy them means they can drain the market dry of those resources and charg whatever they damn well please for their own goods... you really want to see iron ingots at 1k gp per? A global vendor search would literally allow one or two people on every shard to monopolize the entirety of the game's economy. You can't even say i'm just being paranoid, i'm sure you've all seen what I mean in some form or another and know damn well there are people on every shard who would do it the moment it was put in. The only reason they don't right now even with the searchers there are is that there ARE all those alternative vendors on the shards outside of those cities.. currently its entirely possible to offer things much cheaper without worry.

    What they need to do is work to shut down the search sites actively.. leaving them open only leads to complaining like this topic. It's a wonderful idea in theory, but in practice it would most likely kill the game, which i'm sure is why the devs have never done anything like it.
     
  21. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    That may be true crysta but atleast someone would be buying my stuff :)
    as it is When I place items on my vendors I always go way under luna price shoot I sell pofs for 30k to 40k and because of the search methods for luna/tokuno I rarly sell them but when someone stops by and sees them thay snatch them all usually !
    basicly people are lazy and if you can shop for a item for 4 hours and not find it or look through one of the sites and hav it in 5 min for more gold most people are gonna do that I know I am guilty of it at times!
     
  22. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Actually, it would have an opposite effect. Vendors outside the two search sites range don't do very well these days. The reason is, as people have said, its just much easier for someone to type in what they want and find it than to run around several facets trying to find it.

    As for someone buying up all the supplies, so what? If I am a vendor selling 'X Item' on my vendor for 2 mil and some other vendor buys it then turns around and sells it for 10mil, I don't care. I made the 2 mil I wanted. Then, nothing will stop me from getting another 'X Item' and selling it again for 2 mil. A greedy vendor can have 200000 vendors full of overpriced items but if no one buys from them, they won't last.

    It would actually benefit the community as a whole for those greedy vendors to even try to monopolize. If I searched UO's vendor database and found 'X Item' on a vendor for 2 mil then when I got there it was gone but all of a sudden it showed up on Greedy Vendor for 10mil, I would talk to the 2mil vendor and arrange a private purchase. More immersion. Then the 2 mil vendor would have made 4 mil from selling two 'X Items' while greedy vendor would be out 2 mil and have an item no one will buy from them.

    As it is now, vendor play is limited mostly to those in and around Luna or Zento. The best vendor houses on my shards closed all because of these search sites. If UO cared at all about the community, they would take steps to ensure that people that have supported the game for years and provide a nice service to players would want to stick around.

    The devs are going to be hard pressed to 'get rid of' the existing search sites. Instead of wasting time trying to fix something that will just pop up in a new form as soon as its fixed, they should put things in that makes those 3rd party type things not necessary.
     
  23. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    For all of its faults as a game, one of the best aspects of WoW was the centralization of the auction house. You could find what you were looking for as well as play the market on various items as a sub-game. It didn't "ruin" sales outside of the auction house as the /Trade channel was constantly busy as well.

    That was one of the few things I enjoyed about WOW much better system other than that the game got stale fast and here I am back to uo fulltime
     
  24. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    You aren't adding it up properly.. it would be easy to script buying absoloutely anything the moment it appears on a vendor on a shard (even if devs coded hundreds of things into the client to prevent it). And of course, people selling would get rich as well.. but with one or two people buying EVERYTHING the INSTANT it shows up on a shard, there WOULD NOT be any alternatives for buyers (at least within the vendor system.. would prolly lead to people only buying things in person and the vendor system becoming completely worthless, with everyone begging for the search to go away). This leaves the sellers with lots of gold they can only use to buy from the controlling people, and everyone else struggling to maybe buy one item a month from a vendor, IF they can earn multiple millions fast enough. It all goes to the people on top, too, in one way or another.

    WoW has the staff to be able to regulate the system properly and prevent the kinds of things i'm explaining, before anyone tries to make a comparison.. UO doesn't.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    heehee

    Could be that.

    Could also be more-or-less legal though. Sometimes private sector groups collect economic data that the government doesn't collect, in order to sell it to other private sector groups. This data's reliability is often subject to question, though.

    -Galen's player
     
  26. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    So people buying things in person would be less immersive? I don't agree but you are entitled to your opinion. I seriously doubt that all these make believe people you mentioned are going to waste their gold buying up things that no one will end up buying from them. But ok.

    I know for a fact that there is currently two search sites in place now. And, even though there are two search sites in place now, people are still able to run vendors without the entire 'vendor' system being taken over by these mystery people of yours. So, if that search expanded outside of Luna it would completely wreck the entire vendor setup? I seriously doubt that.

    A quick check of either of these sites will show a large variety of most items with an even larger variety in pricing. Sure, its not perfect because its limited to just Luna. But, its also not this 'game killing' thing that you are trying to make it out to be.
     
  27. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Good thing about seeing it as black market or thieves' guild contacts though is it goes well with how those databases can't be given out here or in-game, and also those databases focus overwhelmingly on Luna and, let's face it, Luna is a shady kind of place. Their Mayor sells elf ears, and eats pixie legs. The City of Paladins fell from grace a very long time ago. Long before the Britannians arrived to colonize Malas, I suspect.

    -Galen's player
     
  28. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Not to hijack but Luna was the very worst thing the devs ever did to this game outside of AoS. In my opinion.
     
  29. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    I'll reply to the rest later when it's not too damn hot for me to concentrate.. but for that.. Luna was PART of AoS... so just say "AoS was the worst thing the devs ever did to this game". :p
     
  30. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    By far, AoS was the very worst thing for sure. heh. I don't mind Umbra though. I actually dig that place. Wish it was used more. The housing aspect of Luna made it crap, to me. If they took housing away from it it wouldn't be nearly so bad. AoS in general would still bite though. :thumbsup:
     
  31. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Many of you are posting as if you think that Luna would not be a popular vending area without the two vendor seach sites. That is not true. You get rid of those sites and Luna will be just as popular as ever and that has to do with the extreme close proximity for a bank, a moongate, npc shops, stable, inn and of course the player run shops. The use of those sites adds an edge and makes searching alot easier, but even if we didn't have those sites, people would still favor Luna simply because of its fame and layout. It's all sort of linear and somewhat in grid format (as opposed to staggered and seperated housing).

    I do think a search engine will benefit all those scattered outskirt vendors out there, but I donlt really think to a high degree. Part of the bonus of those outskirt shops is the low prices that you get from going to them. With the search engine, we would probably see some price fluctuation at those places... probably would go up. It would also cost EA money and (for those of you who understand how the Luna Search engines work) it would be a tedius task to even make such a thing. Then it would have to be updated to be work anything, and we are talking 4 facets where houses can be placed, thats a lot of land to over.

    So to answer, would it be nice? yes!
    Think it will ever happen? No
     
  32. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    I don't mind Umbra though. I actually dig that place.

    Same here, especially after seeing it in KR... at night... without Nightsight. VERY cool atmosphere created that way.
     
  33. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Those famous vendor search engines works based on using scripts with a stealthing characters walking around and double clicking vendors and log the items, prices and descriptions and create a database. This is why only vendors covered in the route would be covered.

    If the vendor is more than a few screens past luna and zento wall then most likely the vendor won't be tracked.

    With current coding its impossible for an actual vendor search engine to be possible unless there's a code change and I would think it will also require a lot of resource (system load) for it to work.

    So I don't know it would be lovely to have this function enabled to players so you don't see all those wandering vendors in the middle of no where that no one ever visits.
     
  34. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    I voted no.

    The biggest reason being: UO has enough of a lag issue without introducing another computer intensive feature to the game. And UO is not in a position to upgrade equipment just for this functionality.

    In order to search, you are talking about wading through thousands(millions??) of items that might be available PER server. And then doing that over and over hundreds of times an hour as people search for items. That is not a resource free search.

    There is one non-UO approved search available. Last time I used it, it was only updated once every 4 hours. While it does promote a non-UO approved program, it has minimal impact upon UO servers.
     
  35. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    did not know that I will have to check it out with one of my non elfs there are time I wish I could turn night site off with my elf this is one of em :-/
     
  36. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Definitely. Its very nice. And not just because every house I own is done with Shadow Tiles. Honest.
     
  37. Rocklin

    Rocklin Guest

    Yes because I love to look through tons of vendor debris for hours trying to find what I want. I find it immersive to stand at a house for hours trying to find an item that may not be there...
     
  38. Vantobia

    Vantobia Guest

    In favor !
     
  39. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    So you "honestly" believe that players should resort to the third party search engines that are profited off of by someone who doesn't even run the game? Sounds a bit fishy aye?
     
  40. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I suspected something like that.

    Oh well. *sighs*

    -Galen's player
     
  41. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Last I heard there was a new and improved client called Kingdom Reborn that has many new features. So your position on that issue is void. Secondly, what exactly do these third party websites do that OSI could not do and implement into the game. Oh yeah, I forgot, they have these huge complex programs that were engineered by highly skilled and well paid programmers right? I just see this idea as an awesome way to get a lot more people to play Kingdom Reborn. So there you have it, all you nay sayers who have been corrupted by the vile influences of this land. :coco:
     
  42. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    The vendor system is in shambles not because of search engine sites, but because of issues in the game. Before Age of Shadows there were 5 types of armor and 5 types of weapons. You picked out what you needed quickly and easily.

    Today there is an infinite combination. The vendor system should have been overhauled when AOS was introduced so that players would not have to sit there and click identical looking items to find what they needed.

    But all the calls for some central auction/listing system means that vendor owners have to compete with the entire shard in terms of pricing. That may be good for buyers but it will kill people who want to just toss stuff on a vendor for a price they think is fair. Your item will just never sell and you are throwing gold away.

    I don't have any good solutions for this issue but I know that a shard wide search engine would just crush the final good aspects of UO's vendor system. If there is a search tool implemented it should at the vendor or all vendors in a house, nothing more.
     
  43. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    A database that effectively centralized what is put up on vendors would be a server-side project mainly as that is where all the information is situated. Although KR would lend better technology to the interface with this database, that small portion of the UI and client would be NOTHING compared to the work needed to be done server-side.

    And this from a proponent of a centralized vending system AND the KR client.

    Secondly, as to your earlier reply, just because someone is against the idea does not mean that they are supportive of or connected with the external programs that do this in any way, so let's not even try the "you have position X so you must be one of the people breaking the rules" argument either directly or indirectly as it gets the topic NOWHERE.

    Obviously, as evidenced in other MMOGs, such a system IS possible in one form or another, whether or not it is either feasible, or done within a reasonable timeframe is another argument altogether.
     
  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    JC, I agree with the first part, they should have NEVER made the AOS system as big in terms of item intensity numbers as they did. They should have stayed with the original 5 tiered system and added in the new mods and balanced accordingly (they did not which was the biggest failure of AOS).

    But I disagree with the second part of your post, sure it will change the Market, but trade markets have a unique way that they tend to adapt to such changes. Of course this means some people will no longer be able to compete, however others will find themselves with a new opportunity they didn't have before.

    I think the market, even in UO, is a bit more robust than you give credit.
     
  45. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    lol... last I heard all the information for UO is stored on the server. Guess what? Client has NOTHING to do with server side lag. Adding in complex searches will kill it. Guess your opinion is void due to lack of understanding of client/server interaction:coco:

    I thought people who worked on that unmentionable program were not paid? Were you talking about some other "highly skilled" programmers? History has shown those haven't been a part of UO's team in a while:p

    So I'd say what those third party websites do that OSI couldn't do is make something that works reasonable well and fix issues quickly/regularly.

    ROFL... if the search was only a client side issue, you'd be right. However, all the work is done server side which already has speed issues. So nope, some of us nay savers are actually corrupted by *GASP* knowing what is going on:coco:
     
  46. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    hmm after reading all the posts the one that made sense to me the most was Nok's that I can understand I think the problem is with the 3rd pary programs AND the the advantage the luna /tokuno vendors get from said programs... The answer I dont have but for a certain group to benifit from a 3rd party program is just as bad as scriptors only its not there fault but the people who created the situation that let it happen! is it there fault no not really its just people taking advantage of a bad situation !! I think the answer is get rid of vendors totaly and go to a auction house type system by dropping all vendors how much lag would that fix and would it be enough to to make auction type system feasable? I think so but am no expert ! some will say noway to big a change and they would be wrong look at the weapon revamp hellofa change there we adapted ! I am sure the luna/tokano people would hate it but you know what I hated it when my vanq weopons where worth crap to! they still did it it can be done there is a answer to this! someone just needs to say do it look at the poll stats 80% for it is a huge number!
     
  47. Hanna

    Hanna Guest

    It's isn't the search engine that gives them an advantage it's the fact the built the house within the city walls, with the entire city infastrucure behind them and a nice easy layout for people to shop. They ruined the player vendor system with Luna and then they added Tokuno and tried to do it some more, however luna already had a huge foothold so tokuno never really took off like luna. Both cities should be distroyed and the gates removed from the areas.

    If everything were in a search engine it would take away much from the game. Why dont't you just add a button to the game that says "click here the whole game will be played for you".

    The illegal search engine serves one group of vendors in luna, basicly owned by the same individual/possibly he formed another group again now. But it is basicly the same person behind it all. And uo will never ban him again so what does it matter.

    In my opinion, if you choose to use the illegal search site, you are no better than the site and you don't care about cheating.
     
  48. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

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    Who wants to login several times a day and track prices of their wares? Constantly updating to remain competitive, lowering your price gold piece by gold piece to get that top spot in the search results? Keeping spreadsheets on price fluctuations and calculations?

    That is not a game I think many would like to play. Only a couple people per shard would be up for it. Every other vendor owner would go out of business. Lets just take recall scrolls. That is still a rather popular item you craft. One person can corner the entire market on them. You try and sell for 40 gold, they sell for 39. You are only 1 gold piece more, but the other person is going to get all the business. You stop selling. They jack up their price to 40 gold or higher.

    The market will of course adapt, but it will make things a lot less fun.
     
  49. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I don't particularly like the idea, but I know there are too many "anti-shoppers" out there that just can't stand spending more than five minutes looking for something.

    Meanwhile they'll spend hours and hours and DAYS killing the same spawn over and over in the hopes they'll get an artifact at random.

    Huh. Ok. Whatever.

    I would support text searches with prices and coordinates listed, but you MUST go to the vendor to buy it. None of this "world auction" crap most games like to do these days.

    Though honestly, I prefer sifting through vendors now and then looking for bargains, like it's a thrift store. I've found some items for ridiculous prices -- sometimes just because I examined a few more vendors in a little house in the middle of no where. I'd rather those little gems stay hard to find -- it makes shopping more fun.

    But some people can't stand walking into a store and staying two minutes. I've never understood such people -- their ancestors must have just stood at the edge of the forest and waved their hands demanding that the deer come out and plop onto their spears.

    :coco:
     
  50. Nex Anima

    Nex Anima Guest

    Yea because I disagree with a search engine, I am part of the vast stealth conspiracy the plagues the uo lands...also I'm chopping down 2/3 of the rain forests....muhahaha!

    whos the ones allowing this to happen? Not the people running the third party engines, not EA but the players by using it. Its just like buying items with RL cash, its there because theres a market for it...so should EA just start selling gold as well?

    your right I could do that but my point wasn't about me. how many sales on vendors are due to an impulse buy?

    lets stop making the game easier and start making it playable (bugs, cheating and exploits are dying to be fixed...);)