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Should tamers be able to command pets while stealthing?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by TheScoundrelRico, Nov 25, 2014.

  1. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Just curious what the group thinks on this topic.

    Should tamers be able to remain hidden while commanding their pets? On Siege, I see a lot of pets wandering through the wilderness and dungeons while their owners remain hidden.

    Personally, I think if you are going to be a stealth tamer, you should only be able to have your pets follow for a short period of time, then you have to reveal to re-command the pet to follow again.

    Just something that popped into mind and I thought I'd bring it up here...

    Thoughts?...la
     
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  2. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Sage
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    Didn't it used to be this way? I could swear I used to have pack horses go wild on me because I'd go afk hidden for too long and they would become "aggravated" or what ever.
     
  3. Dag Nabbit

    Dag Nabbit Seasoned Veteran

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    I think that the pet should have to see it's owner. If mining and lumberjacking auto-reveals me, then commanding a pet should do the same.
     
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  4. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    If you are willing to put the time and effort to train all those skills on one character, then you should be able to use them in concert.
     
  5. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I give the command to my pet when I hide... should then ALL Stealthers have to reveal every short while? Why penalize stealth even more. It's already one of the biggest wastes of skills in the game since more often than not crybabies have taken more and more away from it.

    Can't really use it in Blackthorns, EVEN with 120 stealthing REAL you get revealed by the silliest of things... EVEN with 120 REAL stealthing and GM hiding any run of the mill human can track you with JOAT. LAME IMO.

    What is the matter Rico? You realize you already know where the tamer is. Just use some lame means of revealing them... Since most everything can do it. Hell you could probably reveal them with JOAT. Of course it'll be a slim chance but I'm sure it's possible since you can track a 120/100 stealther with JOAT.
     
  6. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Actually, as usual it's not a question that relates to me or the thief play style.

    I've noticed quite a few red tamers on Siege since I've returned. I'm more concerned about any new players we may attract.

    Then again, look what I did...I gave you a platform to complain about detect/revealing/tracking. Come to Siege where passive detect isn't in place...la
     
  7. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I do play on Siege on occasion.
     
  8. Rolo

    Rolo Visitor

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    For as much power as tamers have they are too easy to play. "all guard me" is a say and forget command. In pvp say "all guard me" and watch 500+ HP creatures go mto town while the tamer goes to town with specials and spells that stack damage with tamers pets. I think making tamers have to actually command thier pets more as well as a cool down to logging out to "save" pets from dieing would be a good thing. Having to have some vet(at least 60 to 80) would be a nice requirement to help in pvp with too many offensive skills to go along with taming. With as powerful as some pets are, adding a character with mutiple offensive skills is just overpowering. A dreadmare slaying mod would also be nice. Anyone with an honest opinion on pvp knows that high end pets with too many ways of putting out damage with the character makes for bad pvp unless your the one playing the tamer. Altho speedhacking is an entirely different issue, if you add that into the equation, the fact that has never been addressed makes those tamers even worse. The way tamers are in pvp right now, it makes a lot of it just flat out ridiculous and turn even more people off of pvp.
     
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  9. HoneythornGump

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    Another call to nerf a template?:next:
     
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  10. Lorddog

    Lorddog Crazed Zealot
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    to clarify you have to show to give the command to follow you, but can stealth after that. then when your pet goes blue (when fighting) and you are hidden or stealth - you again have to show to turn your pet back to (green?).
    but the poster is talking about after the command is given and the pet is somehow following a hidden char. how is that possible? it shouldn't be.

    I agree with the poster that if you are hidden then your pet SHOULD stop following you (because he/she cant see you).

    maybe same thing for when your a ghost.

    many times on siege I had my pet attacking mobs and I was hidden a PK came and tried to find me. my dragon finished killing that and started following me - leading the PK directly to me. most times they got me but a few times I was able to issue all kill on PK and hide again quickly to get away. :)
     
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  11. Lorddog

    Lorddog Crazed Zealot
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    consequences of a change would make it much harder for me to lead my dragon into mobs (while stealthing). I would then have to have my dragon target edge mob and inv myself quickly. but I am still more in favor of this change.
     
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  12. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Not completely a nerf...well, ok...it's a nerf...but it makes sense...la
     
  13. Hinotori

    Hinotori Seasoned Veteran
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    I should be able to train my pets to hide and stealth along with me. That old nightmare should be a legendary stealther with how long it's watched me do it.

    As for commands, well speaking makes you visible. But I know they have the pets on follow and then issue "all kill" then hide and stealth with the targeting arrow up. If that goes away I don't really care. It doesn't make a big difference to me since I don't pvp. In pvm I'm smart enough to stand under my pet so it is targeted first not me. I always step under the pet before issuing a command.
     
  14. Zeke

    Zeke Lore Keeper
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    I tie bacon strips to my suit so he always knows where to find me...
     
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  15. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Do you get revealed when using the context menu to issue a command?...la
     
  16. Hinotori

    Hinotori Seasoned Veteran
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    And I guess you can't even do the "all kill" and hide anymore. Shows how much I use it.
     
  17. Zeke

    Zeke Lore Keeper
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    Yes you do.
     
  18. Hinotori

    Hinotori Seasoned Veteran
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    Context menu command does reveal you
     
  19. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Then I suppose I am not as upset as I was when I first posted this. For some reason I was under the impression a stealthed player could use the context menu without revealing ones self...la
     
  20. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    Well, you can control your pet when dead, to an extent by just logging it out when it gets low on health.
     
  21. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    Im curious - should you be revealed when you say 'all kill', or hello there???

    Its most obvious that any stelther would prefer to stay hidden when they talk to a person next to them... So why reveal them while they are stelthing commanding the pets....

    Oh, did I say 'commanding'??? That means you have to say something - right???

    When you play hide and seek, dont the seeker find the hider if he says something - or am I just misunderstood???
     
  22. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    You are misunderstood. Think Marco Polo...la
     
  23. Fridgster

    Fridgster Lore Master
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    Personally i think all thieves should reveal when they try to steal :)
     
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  24. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Your wish has come true, then again, there aren't many more ways thieves can get nerfed...la
     
  25. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Anyone can outrun a dragon and his keeper... What are you crying about... If he's that good of a mage he's not got hiding and stealth either.. He does invis.

    You can't have all that cake.

    And Secondly.... Carry with you a dragon slayer weapon... Dragon goes down pretty quick and if he's got no vet then he'll either be wasting all his time casting Greater Heals on his pet or he'll be log out more than in to save his pet. And you still win.

    Tamers are NOT a big deal. Pets move slow. Sure the Dragon sometimes does a breath attack .... but it's not that often and generally you can RUN AWAY. Joust the dragon if need be. But they aren't that bad.
     
  26. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    For goodness sake, here we go again with another attempted nerf at a stealth tamer.

    If you are a ninja/warrior with stealth you can stealth around all you like, unseen, with your WEAPON, not to be revealed until you attack. If you are a mage stealther, again, you can stealth around with your WEAPON in hand (ie your spellbooks) not to be seen until you cast a spell. How is it ANY FLIPPING DIFFERENT for a tamer to stealth around with their WEAPON (ie their pet). Difference is you can actually SEE FLIPPING TAMER location as their pet gives them away and getting from a - b still requires them to reveal to command the pet whenever it takes off after a mongbat or distracted by any of the million other things that pets get distracted with. They reveal when they re command their pet, they reveal if they say 'all kill' but you know what you already KNOW they are there so it is hardly like they are gonna 'surprize' you. As for the 'realism' of the pet not seeing you so can't follow you, how about you just understand that it doesn't need to 'see' you because it can flipping SMELL you and it is following it's masters body odor.

    Talk about a bunch of flipping cry babies. So sick and tired of ONE person putting up a 'nerf' and then everyone just jumping on the bandwagon til it gets nerfed. There is NO logical reason to change something that has been in the game for decades. And you know what, for that tamer to actually be able to 'do' that they have invested probably 200 to 220 points into hide and stealth on an already specialized template. Given that to be an really effective tamer you probably have another 300-360 points or more invested in Tame/Vet/Lore, that only leaves you between 140-200 points to put into magery, med, ei or whatever else you need.

    My tamer has extra points put to magery and lockpicking/carto/mining depending on what role she is in at the time, that of pure tamer or thunter.

    Shove it with the nerf stick for pete's sake. I agree that a RECTIFICATION was in order to stop people farming unattended with stealth chars, however, as always the way it was done was a total NERF and totally easy fix overkill. Rather than consider the problem and put in a fix that was appropriate, now every single flipping two bit creature can now 'reveal' you in blackthorns, making the points invested into the stealth skill hopeless, but not only that also affecting players with invisibility. Try casting that in there and making it stay on, that is also nearly impossible.

    The rectification SHOULD have been if a char went into hide and didn't MOVE or command a pet for TEN minutes then they should auto reveal. Same as if a char stood on the one tile for more than 10 minutes be auto 'moved'. But no, they got out the whack stick and basically made it nearly impossible for any char to either hide, hide/stealth and even invis with any level of certainty.

    Bad design again.

    As for this topic, get over it. I hope the dev's for once don't listen to the hysteria bought up on this forum on skills that have been around since inception.
     
    #26 MissEcho, Nov 25, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
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  27. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Lol, please feel free to unbunch your panties at any time...la


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  28. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Another constructive comment from Rico the :troll:
     
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  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, they should probably stop following you after a while when you are hidden. On the other hand I have always thought some pets should have stealth, like panthers or wolves or whatever. But that would probably be over powered with pack instinct.
     
  30. Hinotori

    Hinotori Seasoned Veteran
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    Oh YES! This is definitely what I need. My ostards to stealth with me. Yesssss
     
  31. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Not too terribly long ago many pets DID stealth WITH you... I remember that because I spent a lot of time as a stealther. And even my horse would stealth with me when I was stealthing about. But that went away LONG time ago.

    Honestly there are too many crybabies around here wanting to nerf everything because they can't get a template to destroy everyone... I'm sorry but every template has it's advantages and disadvantages... bonuses and drawbacks..... get over it.

    Want me to unbunch my panties then put your silly nerf bat away and learn to play the game without crying everytime someone has a template that overpowers you.

    Why not do away with thieves? I'm tired of having folk snoop me or my pack... and don't want to have to worry about silly thieves who can grab and run from stealth... Don't know they are there until they take your item... I think they should not be able to stealth either then... it's overpowered I can't see them coming at me so therefore it needs to be nerfed!

    Learn to deal.
     
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  32. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    My tamer uses hand signals.....okay?
     
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  33. obeeee

    obeeee Journeyman
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    Command your pet, you are revealed. It can ONLY follow you while stealth moving. I've been doing it for 9 years and NEVER in pvp, just pvm.
    Very acceptable template.
    I remember while I could talk while hidden and not reveal. I doubt you do.
    Hiding has been 'frowned' upon by the devs for ever, but never removed from the game.
    There are other things much worse to pay attention to. For instance, leaving your pet in a dungeon while hidden to get drops.
    But stealthing and your pet following you?
    :facepalm:
     
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  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well, I'm speaking as a frequent stealth tamer, so... No dealing required. :p
     
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  35. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, it probably would not be fun to get ambushed by a dude and 5 frenzies. That would kill a whole lot of people most likely.
     
  36. Advisor Bacchus

    Advisor Bacchus Visitor

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    You are kidding me right?
    Working up a legendary tamer is no big deal and even if it was it for sure should have no bearing on the effectiveness of the character lol.
    Pretty sure this is 2014
    *shakes head*
     
  37. Advisor Bacchus

    Advisor Bacchus Visitor

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    Biggest waste of skills in the game yet a huge majority of prodo shard players have it on a template and 99.8% of Siege does.
    Hrmmmm....
     
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  38. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Stealth Tamers are particularly a problem on Siege, since over there noone runs around with uber suits to take a tamed Greater Dragon head on. We're talking about basic suits that just cap the Resists, LRC, and LMC. Not the 200+ Mill suits on Atlantic that allow players to say "Come at me bro" to a trained Greater Dragon. If a trained Greater Dragon pounces on someone on Siege, odds are the person is going to get torn limb from limb.

    Lol. Taming still takes the longest of any skill in the game to gain. Just ask Poo, who's maxxed every skill in the game on several shards.
     
  39. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Speaking as a stealth tamer myself I was telling Rico to put on his big boy britches and get over it.
     
  40. Advisor Bacchus

    Advisor Bacchus Visitor

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    ?
    Advanced char token, taming mark of travesty, and 30 easily obtained skills on jewels and you have a very, very powerful tamer in minutes. All items easily obtained by a vet in 2 weeks of farming btw. That's not even bringing into play sots.
    But assuming you are old school and choose not to use normal game mechanics and items to play your tamer (kinda weird as they were put in place by the devs lol) then I guess it does take a bit of time. No longer then making a poisoner or disco but whatever :)
    So why is it that anyone thinks tamers should be able to hide and command pets again?
     
  41. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    You know what... The OP did not create this thread and outright say that anything should be nerfed. He asked the community for it's opinion on the matter. He did not present a huge one sided case for one particular outcome or another, instead he asked for feedback on the matter. What comes as a response to the guy who plays a template which was nerfed harder than any template in UO history? A bunch of derogatory comments, veiled insults and borderline personal attacks. He did not rudely come out and claim anything to be wrong or right. He provided info based on what he has seen and experienced, and has asked for insight. Some of you took this as an opportunity to to call him a crybaby, to tell him to "get over himself" and to present for all intents and purposes a federal case in support of your opinions with outright insults directed to the man. I have seen a lot of what some people would consider to be "crying" in this thread, but I did not see any of it come from the original poster.

    Just as I have done several times, some of you need to take a step back and read this thread from the beginning and see if you don't shake your head at the outright immaturity and hostility expressed here. Then ask yourself if it's justified.


    In regards to this topic, in my experience regarding stealth tamers; I have always followed the dragon, waited until they stopped and then let a area effect spell or conflag potion do the rest, which by the way, still works to the benefit of the tamer due to the guard command. You basically have a two vs. one scenario right there where even if you are lucky enough to get an attack off, you have a dragon right there on top of you hitting you for large amounts of damage. For a game which in the past has tried to make a habit of simulating scenarios as they would occur in real life, it makes perfect sense that a giant dragon walking somewhere would attract attention to the area and thus would more likely "reveal" in not only the location, but also make visible the person it was following. There is merit to the idea behind the posted topic.

    Now someone may say; "What business does he have trying to reveal my tamer in the first place? He deserves to have the disadvantage." To that my answer would be, "but what about the tamer camping outside a guardzone waiting for a passerby so they can get a quick and easy two vs. one insta drop kill on someone running by half-lifed or redlined and the ability to insta-protect by quickly disappearing into thin air at the first sign of danger with little to no risk? Or to be able to flee and hide and then make the nearly finished off dragon disappear into thin air by simply logging out?"

    Valid discussion here folks. It won't be taken off topic and there is certainly not going to be anymore veiled trolls on any parties. Post your opinions. Support them with facts, and do so in a respectable manner. If you cannot do this, then feel free to not post anything at all.

    Rule A.

    http://community.stratics.com/pages/rules/

    Play nice folks.
     
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  42. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Tamers aren't able to "command" a pet while stealthing, no more than a mage tamer can "command" while invisible. The follow command stays active, but only if your pet is out of aggro mode and thus you can't kill anything or anyone in that state. It just lets you run through an area with the same degree of personal safety that ANY stealther gets. Including thieves... In fact when the tamer has a pet following them, at least it's obvious where the tamer is, unlike other stealthers. If you nerf the tamer in that situation, making them reveal by re-issuing a follow command, then you need to nerf every other stealther so they reveal themselves too. After all, the pesky tamer could leave their pets at the stables and stealth through the dungeon alone and then summon or re-log to bring the pets to their destination. And gosh, nobody would be able to stop them. And given the log out trick is still live and very well used, you'll find that many stealth tamers will be unaccompanied until they get from A to B anyway. So good luck with calling nerf on stealth tamers.

    Incidentally there is a way for a stealth tamer to actually "command" a pet's movement while they are stealthing without revealing themselves, in fact it also works on other spawn too if it's tameable. It's called herding. I'm guessing we'll soon have a thread of "nerf herding" now I've pointed that out :D

    As for the scourge of AFK hidden tamers in dungeons, well surely the best way to tackle that is take away any benefits they're getting from doing it. No drops. Make those monsters reveal. If a pet isn't vetted or commanded in x amount of time and the player is hidden, make it stop fighting and stop taking damage. You don't nerf a whole group of players indiscriminately, you surely target it towards the players who are causing the problems.

    I don't see any benefit in the pet itself revealing a tamer because the tamer is just going to stand right back from the pet out of range of that reveal. Which makes it harder for another player to find and reveal them. And it's going to affect not just stealthers but anyone who casts invis or quickly hides by their pet. In other words the stealth nerf would affect any tamer template in some pretty nasty ways. Spawn itself will try revealing you, to add pets to that can make it impossible to vet during a respawn of a monster group, or survive say if someone lures on you. If it's a greater dragon specific thing, I'd just laugh because I hate the things. But you'll need a mountain of padlocks and tissues for everyone else, Zuck, because that won't go down at all well! :D

    Wenchy
     
  43. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Well said Wenchy and your right... don't nerf all to combat a few. That's stupid and yes you would tick off a whole lot of tamers.

    I want to know when they are going to nerf the autobots and the multiboxes.... those bother me FAR more than the stealth tamers.

    But then I don't bother much with PvP anymore... since I gave up trying to get into the rocket science of uber suit and template building. I just want to play UO.
     
  44. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Actually no, you and a fews other took my simple question as a direct assault on your profession. You took it as a direct question to the developers to nerf tamers.

    Neither are true.

    Oh and as far as my big boy britches, sorry I prefer to run around commando :) ...la
     
  45. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I have to admit I've always thought it was far too safe, and far to easy. I mean with taming AND hiding you really should never die unless you are being careless. It's very effective no doubt, I broke it out for doom recently in an attempt to avoid pks, which I did.

    I started player a warrior more because it's simply less of a snore. I don't expect they will change it unless they upgrade pets, simply because it's been this way forever, but it really pets should only follow you when you are visible, unless they somehow have stealth or tracking or something.
     
  46. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well also, I think something should be done about that too. I know I for one abuse it heavily. Especially when pks show up and try to kill my pets like they did in doom. Never managed to do so because I just stealthed a screen or two over, logged for 30 seconds so the dragon basically just dissapeared then logged back on and completed my escape. It IS pretty unfair.

    I don't know what exactly could be done about it, other than forcing you to go get your pet from the stable. But of course like many poorly though out features it is now something people rely on and removing it would cause an indignant uproar. What are people doing to do, use summoning balls?!?! I'd rather be dead! :p
     
  47. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Yep, if anything needs fixing I think the tactical log out is top of my list for taming. Even if they just made it so logging out sent pets to the stables it would help some of the problems.

    I do also agree that taming is a lot safer with stealth, though I often find my other stealthers are actually safer still because they don't have a pet behind them. The tamer's pet(s) at least attract the surrounding spawn to group up, follow and attack. In a passive follow the pet takes damage, without retaliating to kill any of the spawn. Which isn't as sustainable for long in the more hazardous areas. But if you're just stealthing solo, the spawn only plays tag-along when it's bugged.

    Wenchy
     
  48. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    The main reason I use hide/stealth is to avoid getting jumped when im not paying attention to my dragon killing stuff heh. So ill claim my pet, leave at the stable, run/gate to wherever im going, stealth to the area I want, log out/in dragon is summoned and attacked, once it has drawn aggro I unhide tell it to kill/rehide. It's almost never
    "all following me" for the exact reason you mention. I only have it follow me if I am going around in the same area, and then tell it to stop. If a pk shows up my odds of escape are like 99%, even if I'm not hidden I have a very good chance cause if he gets my scent, I can just sick the draggie on him, then stealth away whem he's forced to run off screen for a few seconds. I never die to monsters on my tamer unless im being an idiot heh.
     
  49. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No!
    Never!
    Unless my sampy can hide and command his leafblade by itself to run around a nice spawn spot and kill things for valuable loot.
    I invested just as much time and effort into making my sampy template and crafting or finding my perfect weapons and armor. You never hear much said about tamers gear but it really is not a factor like it is with other templates. If you dont believe me check out and compare suits that you see on tamers at the bank or at spawns.
    When was the last time you saw someone on the trade boards advertising very expensive tamer suits for sale? Yet you see sampy luck suts going in the billions.
    And I am also paying for or having to obtain resources like bandages and arrows to run some of my pvm templates.
    And anyone who thinks that the time spent training taming skills is a factor in how powerful the template should be is a completely biased nincompoop imo
    *shakes head*
     
  50. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Really? My tactic is to sick my dragon on the idiots coming to kill me and make my escape... If he dies.... he dies. I see nothing bad about that... If he takes one of them out with him... that's better. Generally I don't log in and out as a crutch. I tell him to go eat those foolish enough to challenge me... I quickly make my escape. I don't like to fight... that is why I command something that does. I don't log him out to keep him from dying... If he sacrifices his life for me that's wonderful of him... I'll give him a treat later for it. As a general rule though most folk aren't much interested in fighting him. He doesn't give them anything when he dies. He won't give them a murder count, he carries no loot and he honestly doesn't give much sport so generally I sick him on my would be attackers and before they can finish dealing with him they generally try to find me but by then it's often far too late as I'm long gone.

    If they attempt to follow me I generally am a fair runner and a super hider... and I know my way around the lands very well so I know where the safest locations are to disappear. Get away gate myself to safety and log in and out then to return my beloved to me or I pull him back with a pet ball from safety. Whether he be dead or alive matters not... won't take long to train him back up to his pre-death state. And if he ever falls below my standards then well.... there are more dragons in the den from which he came... I'll just get another.

    But to be 100% honest having hiding, taming and stealthing leaves you with little else to actually be of any threat with. Now a tamer, her/her pet AND a friend... that would be FAR worse. But a mage/tamer without hiding and stealthing would actually be more of a threat. I still don't know what you all are complaining about.

    Honestly I could kill me pretty quickly if I could catch me.
     
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