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Discussion in 'UHall' started by Prince Caspian, Jan 6, 2009.
Inquiring minds want to know....
This is silly.
You dont see Reds complaining about not being able to go to Swoops, Dreadhorn and Bedlam and all the other awesome things in Tram, Illshenar, Luna and Malas.
Seriously, I dont get how blues can complain about anything.
I play mainly a blue character and its awesome being able to go anywhere.
Reds get one place to go...Fel..
Seriously...this is just a stupid age old argument. Fel needs something...the Harry is it.
I agree i mainly play a blue (occasionaly he goes red) and i hate when he does not beinig able to hook up with the rest of the guild.
Ive never done a harrower but i wouldnt want to take that away from fel!
When it was first introduced in Fel, yes it should have been there only. But now it's nothing more than a money making business by Feluccas Elite and anyone that says it's not is smoking a Sosarian Crack Pipe.
Yes i can agree with you on that...but
If people REALLY wanted to do harrys then all you would need to do is take 5-6 big guilds (blues) and maybe inlist the help of a PVP guild, on our shard the majority dont care about scrolls, they want to fight!!
But rather than do that people just moan...as i said i have never done one as we honestly couldnt pull it of but we dont moan about it, we adapt evolve and improve to the stage where we can!
Well, it's true, the Harrower Quest is one of the few things that only Fel can provide at this point.
I have never completed it because every single time there is an army of reds waiting for us, and even with a group of 20+, it's impossible to complete because it turns into a massive PvP schmozz before we can even face the Harrower. Never fails. I don't know if it's like this on other shards.
But then, its not a huge loss because I can buy the power scrolls, so it's not like the rewards of the quest are denied anyone. But I would like to complete it once without having to deal with the pirahana tank at the end...
To this, I must say:
When I last tried the Harrower Quest, I counted. We had twenty four (24) PAS members.
At the final dungeon, there were (I counted as a ghost) FORTY red names. Mind you most of these guys were the PvP top guns on Sonoma, too.
That is not possible to take on with your average sized guild.
Although mind you, PAS does have some sworn PvP foes, so that may inflate the numbers a bit there.
I see your point and unfortunatly they will always try to double number (if not treble) thats just the way it is...my point was maybe your guild cant take it but what about your guild and another 3 guilds of your size?
Its supply and demand people and business.
I dont complain that Best Buy makes money selling dvd's and they dont complain that my bank makes money on CD's and loans.
You (Trammies) make money by farming swoops...and alot of you got flithy rich doing it. You make millions upon millions farming Crimson Cinctures and Hair Dyes...which are bought by guess who?
Reds in fel who like to have ridiculous outfits and ridiculous hair colors.
Pretty much anyone in Fel has a CC...you made a crapload of money off them.
They do Harry's and they sell the +25's that they do get at the small price of 4 mil.
Quit whining about our business...because whens the last time you heard a red whine about your ability to farm Dreadhorn and Swoop?
Or to Farm Bedlam for the Grizzle armor which sells for 2-5 mil per piece?
Prolly can't drum up that much interest in it any more.
Also, heh, to be fair, we DO post when we are gonna try the Champ Spawn on the PAS website.
My own opinions aside, I posted this poll to see what it was like on the other shards....
Um, I never do either. Way to generalize.
You mean like you generalized that the only people doing Harry's are Reds?
20vs40 in the right dungeon a harry would be a snap.
Im not gonna bash anyone for not wanting to attempt pvp it can be agrivating, but if they take away the champ spawns and harry spawns from being fel only they might as well give another faction reprieval. Because at that point fel would be red only/ maybe a blue thats pvp oriented but thats it.
Nonesense. Its PvPs main event! Its not about making money.
Making money can be done much easier by big fel guilds by controling and chaining despise.
Harrower, in my experience, always turns into a massive war and its alot of fun.
Its all about PvP combat.
For that reason I voted: HELL NO.
I obviously voted Hell No.
The last Harry we did...LNR, COW and another big guild all crashed...
So basically...you had 29-31 HOT facing off in the bottom floor of Fire against 19 COW and 17 LNR...it was a huge battle and it was fun.
People complaining need to realize that those of us who do these were just as bad at them as they were at one time.
The point is to keep coming back...(blue guilds like LLTS) atleast try them from time to time.
Trust me...the more you try...the better you will get.
My very first attempt was in the Tram guild COS. We got absolutely steamrolled....and I stood there as the reds came rushing in (at the time it was LNR) and my blood was pumping and I was amazed at how fast I went down.
Fast forward...I joined LLS (Legion of Lost souls)...and I learned a little bit more about Fel and Spawns...
Fast forward more and I was sitting in the guild that originally handed me my ass in a hat. LNR...I was able to learn alot about PvP...and alot about spawns.
Now, I am in HOT and its different because we are a huge guild with various skill levels...but our leaders do a fantastic job setting up the battle.
These spawns are about strategy and planning.
You need to discuss your plan before hand and you need to have a chokepoint setup...you need to have a designated rez area and you have to have someone scouting entrances to make sure you know if someone is crashing...so you can be prepared.
The main thing: Be Prepared. (LION KING!)
First, it is neither a quest nor an event but a partially controllable resource.
Any further detriment to pvp would result in forcing pvpers to spend even more time doing the boring grind nonsense.
As long as scrolls wouldn't drop from the harrower in Tram ruleset... I don't think it'd be that bad. Replicas/Decor... those can be had just about anywhere and with 2 spawns in Tram ruleset being random... they have just as good a shot at getting those items there as in Fel.
Just no Powerscrolls in Tram...
Nope Harry should be Fel only, no risk, no fun!
All what "blues" "Trammies" have to do is searching a PvP Alliance and i think this is what the community need, not splitting up instead of playing together!
UO is a game of PvP just as well as it is a PvM Game.
Um, when did I say THAT? Actually, most of the folks doing the Harry were blues, with a few red allies sprinkled into the mix. But virtually everyone waiting for us was a moniker in scarlet.
Limlight, you apparently choose to play red. That's fine... and understandably you come to the defense of what I will agree is one of the last remaining reasons to come to Felucca. Your playstyle is your choice.
However, what does irk me a bit is the way you have been couching this whole thing as "your business." I don't think the developers ever designed an aspect of this game to be denied to other players on behalf of another class of players. You can make a blue any old time you want to "camp swoop" and all the other things we Trammies do to swim in the dough (heh, I have 12mil in the bank. I never have been rich in the game because -- and this may shock the living hell out of you -- making money is not an objective for me in this game.)
But your own words you are claiming this aspect of the game as yours (well PKs at large) for your profit. I find that pretty hypocritical given your unwavering belief that trammies are greedy.
Im going to disagree with you simply because youre making trammies sound like whining greedy, i want it all and i want it know, handed to me on a silver platter, with my butt cheeks wiped by my hand maiden only with the finest egyptian cotton babies!!!
Or im gna STROP!!!
(btw im a trammie!!in the biggest guild on GL)
Hey UO users only come in two varieties:
Antisocial foulmouthed sadistic punks who log on just to ruin your day and laugh in a manner most vile and inflate their weak self-esteem by trouncing 100000 big-eyed trammies for breakfast
Wimpy little mommas boys who can't deal with any kind of a challenge and want to have every conceivable aspect of the game delivered to them with the corners sanded down and the crusts cut off.
If this message board has driven ANY message into our heads over the years, is that Ultima Online players ONLY come in these two varieties. There is absolutely no shade of grey. And you can tell by the shard they play on!
I'm divided on this issue.
The case for putting the Harrower in a Trammel rules facet
Harrower is a PvM thing, Trammel players are all about the PvM. There are Harrower-only artifacts now, and it's not fair that Felucca has control over them. Fel already has power scrolls and, for the Harrower, stat scrolls, so no matter what there's going to be a significant Fel-only reward.
The case for leaving the Harrower in Fel only
There isn't a whole lot that is Fel-only in this game. There are already multiple champs, by contrast, that are Trammel rules-only, as well as other PvM challenges, such as the Doom Gauntlet and Paragons. Harrower spawns are lots of fun for Fellies because of the massive PvP that accompanies the PvM. There are also already multiple rewards that are Trammel rules-only and there's no way to get in Felucca.
Which side is right?
The really interesting question is, how many people are only going to read the first part of the post, not read the second, and immediately post that I'm a stupid Trammie, not realizing that I made their case as well? That was basically the reaction to the original post. He got slammed by the Fellies simply for raising the issue; it's far from clear that he's picked his side, however, and the poll was pretty fairly phrased.
So what would that put me under i wonder??
I suppose io would have to go in the first as i dont whine about what i cant do...i just get out there and try to do it!!
But then...i dont run around and try to ruin any1s day...if anything i try to help people (in my guild or not) we work as a common unit alot to achieve a common goal (finish despise say), admitadly when the drama starts its usualy our guild and every1 for them selves lol
Then what happens to the bedlam and labyrinth champ which also gives there own unique items...should they be moved to fel??
You said 40 RED NAMES..and didnt say jack crap about blues. Go read your own post.
You also dont read posts obviously as I said I am a blue.
Of course +25 stat scrolls are a business...
What do you think DOOM is?
Which leads me to another point.
Our Harry is your DOOM..we get +25 scrolls...you get like 30 Arties..
Seriously...wtf are you whining about?
Sit back and start counting all the benefits Tram/Illshenar/Tokuno people get....then think about the benefits reds get...
Who is getting the short end of the stick here?
You say I can make money any old time by making a blue and camping swoop.
Cant you make a Red and join a Fel guild?
Yes...yes you can...you choose not too.
Whether you dont have the patience to learn how different Fel is...or the patience to learn to PvP...either way...all the trammies choose not too. Thats there choice.
Where did I say Trammies are greedy for selling items?
I say they are greedy because regardless of how many ways they have to make money...they want more.
Reds get Fel and thats it...and you dont hear them pancakes every day about not being able to go everywhere...but you certainly hear trammies pancakes about Powerscrolls and Harry's. Its pathetic.
Seriously, again I say...sit down and with an unbias mind (like I did back when I still a trammie in COS) and write down the benefits of each facet and then "attempt" to come back here and make a case for Harry's being in Tram and that Trammies are getting screwed over.
I think you will find (if you are unbias) that Reds have the shorter end of the stick.
*laughing really hard*
Read the rest of my post before responding.
Here's a sample:
Thanks a lot for proving my point so quickly!!!
You can do a couple of things if you want to "complete" one:
Pick a non primetime hour to do one. You know... not 6-10pm
Ask one of the main PvP to "host" one. Some of the main PvP guilds do that on occasion.
Bribe one of the main PvP guilds to "host" one. Greed is a factor on why PvP guilds don't allow these to happen. Broker some money to them and "make" it happen.
I guess the scene on Sonoma has changed in the last 4-5 months. When I was there last, my guild could run(or take over) a harrower with 20 people no problems.
How was that slamming you for being a trammy???
I was simply asking that if you are going to move a champ into tram because it has a unique drop...then why shouldnt you move the champs from tram with unique drops into fel??
Dont jump the gun and assume that everyone posts on your apparant level
I was thinking the same thing. You asked a simple question regarding Tram only drops...and he responds with that.
I am convinced arguing with him is like arguing with:
*chuckles* Criticizing me for jumping the gun.....Funny.
Like I said, read the rest of the post. In the paragraph immediately after the one you quoted, I made the case for keeping the Harrower as Fel-only. In that argument, I dealt with the fact that there's already many champs that are Trammel rules-only. I dealt with it where it was appropriate: In making the case for keeping things how they are.
Calm down. lol
Thanks, though, I'm going to be laughing at this one for hours. Well, ok, more like a minute.
Read the whole post.
I made both arguments.
Damn, you guys are really making a nice little comedy team here.
Once again you miss the point. He saw both of your arguments...but he was pointing out a flaw in your first argument. He doesnt have to adress your second idea as he already agrees with it.
He was pointing out the flaw in the first though.
Geez....its like arguing with third graders.
I don't need to read my own post. I know what I said. There was only red names. So? Reporting that one instance. Your point?
If I may, let me offer another possible reason. A reason that posters like yourself never ever seen to grasp, after thousands and thousands of times on this particular merry go round.
Why does Joe Trammel not make a PK character, as you say?
Maybe it's NOT because he doesn't have the patience.
Maybe it's NOT because he doesn't have the aptitude.
MAYBE THAT PLAY STYLE IS NOT FUN TO THE PLAYER IN QUESTION.
Wow, amazing, huh? What world of fiction have we encountered when a person doesnt play PvP and there is a reason OTHER than he sucks at it?
I read your post jesus!!!
I understand you make both arguments...so why criticise someone for putting there opinions across???
i get confused most pvpers say we just want to fight so why do they need the harry ??
they say we want to fight other skilled fighters so why do the need noobie blue trammys to kill??
they should take away all the guard zones and spawns from fel and let all the folks who want to kill each other do it with out and interferance from the outside world
Its not that they need harry, its more like despise...
If you pop it its guaranteed (well 90%say) there will be a fight...kinda like Brit bank used to be for trading...you wanted something you went to brit.
could care less, but no powerscrolls
The Fel and Trammel Punch and Judy Show.
Been going on strong for years now, just another tired chapter with the same arguments.
The scrolls are like a symbol of who won the fight. Whoever can hold off an army push and kill the champ at the same time. Its part of the game. The powerscrolls are the cheese of the cat and mouse game.
On Baja Harrowers are few and far between as of right now... why? It's not due to lack of interest... it's due to being raided by cheaters/scripters/speeders. Nobody wants to die/lose something to that. That's not PvP.
Harrower is important to fel because most people need a reason to fight anymore. PvP isn't what it once was. I'm friends with a lot of people in an enemy guild... we can sit all day and shoot the bull... but when it's a spawn or a gank in Yew or whatever, that's when we fight. There needs to be a reason.
because the harry is the prize that the red guilds fight for, it brings large group vs. group pvp.
Check please. Lim, I can appreciate your passion for your facet, but you are not telling me anything I haven't heard in the last seven years. As is the case with most of these debates, you won't concede an inch, just heaping more angry accusations on the fire instead of considering what I say. If you think this means I give up and you win, by all means. I really don't care. But I'm weary of this and not going to have this argument on this board for the 10,000,000th time.
Anyhoo, it looks like the vox populi does feel the Harrower needs to stay Fel only, by a considerable margin. Again, I was curious what the thinking was out there, it was not my intention to start this ancient impasse again.
yes it should.
WTf are you talking about?
I made plenty of a case.
I explained your benefits and Fel's.
I asked you calmly sit down and write down with pen and paper each facets benefits.
What inch was I supposed to concede?
You dont make any sense. You are calling valid rebuttals ...angry accusations and arguments.
What did you expect? Cream puffs and sugar?
Whenever you find a post made by a Fel person pancakes about wanting things Trammies get....let me know.
Because of Faction arties, there isnt anything that PvPers need that can be exclusively farmed in Tram.
Useful Doom arties? You can get an uber Faction versions for a faction of the cost.
Crimson? You can get an uber +5 dex Faction one for a faction of the cost or you can get it from Shimmer or Meli or Paroxy in Fel.
Neon hair dyes? You can get it from Meli in Fel.
Crystalline Ring? You can get an uber 3 fcr Faction one for 1/10th of the cost or you can get it from Shimmer or Meli or Paroxy in Fel.
PvMers are getting the scraps now. I vote for a Tram only shard.
While I still don't agree with your views about Fel and Tram, I look back and realize that I've grouped your arguments with the many of the other pro-Fel people I've sparred with, and you've certainly have been more gracious than most. I tend to do that at times, which is why I try to stay out of these arguments. We'll leave it at agree to disagree, eh?
And looks like its neck and neck again. Is someone stuffing the ballot? The anti-Tram-Harrower folks were ahead by like 75% not too long again.
All I have to say is Hell NO!
I used to be a Tram Blue on all of my guys. I then decided to try these spawns out and found an entirely new world of UO. Years later I only have one blue guy and the rest reds. All it takes is learning a little PVP and you can do them.
I for one have been having a lot of fun in UO the last little while with the new items. Collecting as well as defending.
Dying is part of the game.
Let me be able to kill you in Tram dungeons and then we will talk.
Got to give a little to get a little...
As a quick note, out of 68 voters as of 4:35EST, only ONE person is middle of the road on this issue.
in all my yrs of killing and maiming dont know if i seen something posted like this. what the hell is the "harrower quest" ? the harrower is a spawned monster.