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Simple, Logical A.I. Change to Make PvM More Interesting

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Nothing complex, just that when an aggressive mob reveals a character in some way, they should immediately aggro on that character. It simply makes sense. It makes no sense whatsoever that you can invis to hide from an aggressive mob, have them reveal you, and they are no longer aggro'd on you.
     
  2. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    That's been exactly my experiences w/ Slasher
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well then they should extend that behaviour to all intelligent mobs.
     
  4. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I dunno, I tend to find a lot of mobs reveal me....in fact any that can cast the reveal spell, or can "detect hidden" reveal me almost immediately after I cast invis, sure you can cast it a few dozen times before they stop.

    I think the problem you are thinking of is that they do not aggro quick enough, and this might not be a coding problem but a processing issue and might not be fixable. But I would not know given my status as not working for them. :p
     
  5. EvilPixieWorks

    EvilPixieWorks Lore Keeper
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    I think monsters cheat enough... the newer they are, the worse it gets. Just like how the masima will go past pest and far more powerful chrs to attack and murder the weakest in sight.

    What we need is "monster fear factor". I've been saying this for years. Mostly, this is for the weakest and saddest monsters that bug you around your house and other houses you may visit. They should be smart enough to smell we are extremly powerful and want to run away vs. attack us. :drool:
     
  6. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    It's not just POWER they should be able to smell.. Some players' homes I've been in, look like ****.. I assume IRL they would smell it too, not even Orcs would go anywhere near them.

    :dunce:
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    This is another issue, but absolutely yes. Wild, weak animals should run from you. Intelligent mobs should have the power of threat assessment and if they are social, they should go get help if they assess that you are stronger than they are, and if they are not social, they should avoid you.

    And mobs like deer for example should have their movement rates increased so that if they are trying to get away from you, they should actually be hard to catch. Mobs like rabbits should move faster, and should move very erratically, and should have burrows they can hide in that you might have to dig out, or use a ferret to go in and get them.

    Currently the a.i. in UO has to, with a few exceptions, be the dumbest in the entire genre. It needs updating in the worst possible way.
     
  8. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Many mobs (and opposite what happens to players),once their HP drop below a certain %, gain paragon speed or greater, some almost like a revenant; case in point 'fire' ants, and rat renowns.
    Those fire bunnies and one from the thorns have the Very Fast speed. Let's add it to Packys first.

    course, since Devs have a dungeon revamp on their radar, and given their track records, we may not have to worry about this.(all now get: para speed, auto reveal, mystic spells, and a 5% loot increase)

    On another note, I heard a mob fizzle the other day (no one else was around), almost fell out of my chair.
     
  9. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

     
  10. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Something tells me this stems from a situation where a monster revealed someone and rather than attacking the person it revealed it attacked you. You can correct me if I'm wrong of course, Llewen. But I'm a bit torn on whether or not I agree with this. Monsters are a form of strategy in dungeon PvP and sometimes field PvP. A strategy I often see is someone will pre-cast invis, lead someone into a group of monsters and then hide themselves leaving the monsters to attack their pursuer(s). This tactic would be taken away (at least with magic casting mobs) were your idea to be implemented. This would give players one less option to defeat ganks or win a battle where it's a PvM character versus a PvP character. I think you'll understand what I'm getting at with that.
     
  11. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    The tactic should remain assuming the monster does not target you with any kind of reveal. This means you would break aggro with all monsters save for the one that reveals you (unless you are the unluckiest of all players and everything on screen tries to reveal you). But intelligent AI should be able to assess a larger force compared to a weaker one (there are tags for "these people are partied" and "these people are guilded" and so forth, so why can't the AI tap that?
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Allow me to correct you. This isn't based on one incident, but on many years of playing UO and thinking how silly it is that that big bad dragon that is several times smarter than my character who is a genius will reveal me, or someone else, or a pet, or whatever, and then wander around for a while with a stupid look on his face before he realizes, "Whoa! Dude! It worked! I can see my lunch again!"

    I don't see this as much of an issue. Old tactics no longer work, and new ones are discovered with each major publish. That's just the nature of MMO's and pvp in MMO's. It's a sword that would cut both ways. It would be just as challenging for the pvp'rs as it would for the pvm'rs, and actually moreso because there aren't many red pvm'rs and pvm'rs have a distinct advantage in working around heavy spawn due to the fact that they have access to the virtues, and reds do not.
     
  13. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    "red" is not equivalent of "PvP" Vlaude's specific example was that of a ganking, which can be blues on reds, reds on blues, oranges on oranges, reds on reds, blues on blues, and any combination I might missed. But other than that I agree with you that the change might not really affect the PvP "escape" if the AI was actually intelligent.
     
  14. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Don't get me wrong, I was already on the brink of agreeing with you. However, basing things off your playstyle and the majority of your threads relating to PvP I couldn't help but think you might have a PvP agenda in requesting a change like this. However, rather than making that obvious you mask it as a PvM issue to try to get more people to agree with it. Forgive my cynicism Llewen maybe I'm assuming too much but I'll say I agree with the idea to the point that it mostly affects PvM, and is a PvM issue. Does that do any good? I don't think even if you had the majority of this board agreeing with you that this change would be made. Good luck.
     
  15. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    "red" is not equivalent of "PvP" Vlaude's specific example was that of a ganking, which can be blues on reds, reds on blues, oranges on oranges, reds on reds, blues on blues, and any combination I might missed. But other than that I agree with you that the change might not really affect the PvP "escape" if the AI was actually intelligent.[/QUOTE]

    I just have to point out that that is in fact the same kind of argument that many make against removing all the guard zones in Fel. But that is COMPLETELY off topic, I just couldn't help myself.

    Having said that, you are of course correct. The only reason I mention reds because if a character is red, it's pretty safe to assume that that character has been involved in some form of pvp, and is red is most often the colour associated with pvp, or at least that has been the case in UO's past. However, there are all kinds of pvp. Hell, two merchants with shops in Luna competing with each other is a form of pvp.

    Touche, cynicism acknowledged and understood... :)
     
  16. mmmmmmm .... no

    The devs need FIRST demonstrate an ability to program essentially >static< objects BEFORE tackling /beginning on AI.
    boats would be an excellent 2nd tier.

    House placement would be the first tier to MASTER
    Old-Legacy >> abandoned housing cleared
    Old-legacy >> "cannot place here" in apparently "legit" FLAT unobstructed terrain ... Cleared

    Third tier >intro< to AI management should be on the non-aggro mobiles ... NPC's
    drop down menu's ARE NOT AI ... *ahem*
    Guards >should not "tolerate" LOITERING in public areas< (sleeping in public IS NOT "civilized", it's decadent and lazy) and there is a better place for that ...
    NOR should they tolerate "violent practice" within their patrol areas (maintain the semblance of Civilized Peace)
    NOR should they tolerate "ghosts" loitering about the public areas ... an exorcize /should be available/ to end those "haints"
    *here but ain't here* (AI healers should seek "the lost" out and help them to a higher plane ... the world is for the physical)

    Once a high degree of competence is demonstrated with the non-aggro types
    Perfecting the Fel class NPC's would be where to "prove concepts" before attending "creatures" mode of thought and action ...

    Just saying ...
    Need a solid system/base BEFORE trying to tweak individual actions into AI
    and RNG scripts ARE NOT AI ... they aren't even to the level of "expert systems"

    *shrugs*
    Probably will need to SPLIT the aggro mobs into Fel/Tram classes
    "some" are having a problem figuring out existing rezzing conditionals ...
    gotta think/allow for a noobs learning experience ...

    AND an overall "Gestalt/Zeitgeist" will be necessary ... of course. :danceb:
     
  17. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Question for Llewen: Which character should the monster aggro to if its use of Reveal spell or Detect Hidden reveals multiple player characters?
     
  18. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    thought you left?
     
  19. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Should be no need to think about this since mobs should get progressively smarter/harder. Obviously a zombie should not have the same intelligent as a skeleton and neither should be able to intelligent react to their environment the way a Lich Lord should. I kept my example with in the same context of monster "type".
     
  20. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    The character it was aggro'd on prior to casting the spell or using the skill.
     
  21. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I thought I left too. I have temporarily righted it seems, lured in by this Balance Pass.. Curiosity will end me, it is certain. Then again.. This place is full of turns one can take.. ;P
     
  22. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Re:

    wont stop the speedhackers that made you leave, nor will it stop any other type of cheating. So save yourself some frustraion and dont look back :pancakes:
     
  23. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    perhaps a kill register with a clicker the more of some critter you kill you recieve a title like when doing champ spawns except it would be something like mongbat butcher and when you approach mongbats after you have killed several 1000 they run away except at a spawn. do the same with every critter except the ones with dragon ai and champs paragons and peerless. I welcome the day ophidians or lizardmen decide that guy is just to powerfull for us to attack though also give in a pack rule to the fear if theres x of said critter they get brave and will atack one they fear.
     
  24. humph! wasn't talking about scaling the AI across the different types ... and would challenge you on "smarter" re: zombie/skeleton there is less of a skeleton to be smart WITH
    ie. all bones one step from dust ... shrugs

    My point is that THE DEVS haven't displayed certain critical skills to ME ...

    and it would, in MY estimation and scaling ... at this time ... be too steep a challenge to tackle mob AI ...

    I would add as an example of the reason for my low faith:
    LOOT tables and spawners ...

    meh!
     
  25. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Have they adjusted these lately that I do not know about it? If not then your example is not definitive.
     
  26. :thumbup:
     
  27. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Look at a lich. It starts casting at range then when it closes on you it casts as well as melles you dealing significantly more damage. Without an FPS model they really cant upgrade the AI! They cant cycle HPs They cant move away or use terain and they cant run to call in help. The best they can do which has been done to an extent is heal properly. And most post ML mobs do that!

    I cant see a big effect from an AI tweak at all!


    That said a while back I remember some team or another adding an orc AI upgrade. Where orc mages were supposed to heal their buddy's! That doesn't seem to happen much if at all and I know it was at one time put in the game!

    Now, I have come back from a few games where the mob AI was heralded as the best in the industry and for the most part its really nothing more then a few cheap tricks or special moves where a mob can do things it just shouldn't. Like heal to full or regn at a absurd rate(paragon!) save for one or two games that incorporated FPS into the MMORPG genera. Im talking actual kiting, healing(at the proper times), calling friends, using terain and, cycling group hit points. And from all that, I still prefer.. well lets not call it easier but less aggravating mob AI.

    If at the end of the day the way you end up playing is exploiting bugs or getting mobs stuck or pinning them wtvr... Is that more fun then what you have now?

    Of course in the short term its just grand. If your the 1st player or group to learn the newest exploit or pinning method sure.. but over time it becomes not some new way to get one up over on your compatriots but the only way your willing to play and that sours play styles and community.
     
  28. Lorddog

    Lorddog Crazed Zealot
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    a GOOD tweek would be that monsters agro against a random person (or pet) and not just the nearest one. a few bosses do this. but standing on the other side of a pet would then become more dangerous.
     
  29. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I think the reaction of the spawn should depend on its' intelligence level and what is available as a choice, to the mob. If one of its' choices is to flee, then it might decide to flee depending on its' hitpoints. If the hiding causes the spawn to become angry, then it might attack the weakest character.

    If it had the ability to reason or had personality or used a type of techinque, then it might base its' decision on any one of those things. You would have to ask yourself, Would it hide itself? It may also run to a larger grouping. Hiding could trigger a number of reactions, not just a simple reveal and attack.

    I think giving the intelligence to spawn to react in a certain way could be added simply by creating an overlay system, where you keep everything like it is and then just add in triggers that unlock or cause an affect. So, you could place entire groups of spawns into categories that would react the same to low life.

    Or characteristics could be added causing unlocks. An example would be, If somebody used double strike, then that might unlock an ability that is granted to the spawn. Perhaps a cloud of gas and as several unlocks are opened the potential power of the spawn becomes much greater.

    So, as a spawn starts out in its basic form it might have 3 personality traits. This would not be apparent unless you got close or attacked. So, you would start by placing them all into those categories. For example: A passive monster, you might have to attack twice before it attacks back.

    An inverted, might flee or run and an exverted might attack you on sight.

    So, after you figure out the impression, you then place the spawns into those 3 categories.

    Then you could add things like smart, dumb and brain-less that would work off the personality.

    Then it would be weak, strong and strongest. So, you could base the unlock of the moves or abilities that are given to each creature. So, maybe 10 abilities that cover all creatures. So, even though it sounds complicated, it's not.

    And then just have X amount of actions equal x amount of reactions and use the dice to roll depending on personality, strength and intelligence.

    So, you should get a smart weak inverted rabbit running away from a strong x verted brainless spawn.
     
  30. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Heh have we all forgoten what Rend does to fresh the resed?
     
  31. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Simple fix. Log In slot (zero). At log in you assume the very next spawned creature. Limited to wander 10 screens from spawn point and no recall or gate. Your paperdoll exist but your stats & skills are that of the creature. Have a toggle for human/elf/gargoyle so you can wear and use any the loot your spawned with. Can loot and kill to loot any spawn in your area.

    Can not be tamed or allured.

    Can not drop anything in your pack. Things in backpack can only be worn and items undressed go straight to pack like vendor undress.

    Once you hit an hour after spawning, the next player (non-red) that recalls or gates will appear in your location. After the first hour and still alive every 15 minutes the next recall/gater drops in for a visit.

    Other real controlled spawn show in color like a guiled/ally. Real Spawn also have their own exclusive chat channel. For war stories.

    There would be some random low chance that a real spawn creature would spawn in some infested paragon uber form. They have a unique token with one month free UO Game Code. After 6 hours the token is the real spawn players if they're still alive. The 15 min. recall drawing players to the Real Spawn should make theese rare uber chance creatures a shard event when it happens.

    This real spawn happening would make it also a cool effect to have thieving, hide and stealth skills on creatures
     
  32. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I like the idea alot Warpig but I don't think it will replace the need for some type of change to the regular spawns because there will be times when you don't have people controlling them.

    When I read the post about your idea, I think I've seen it before when you posted in another thread. I thought it was interesting then, too. It sounds like a completely different game sometimes, like I could imagine the log in screen, clicking on it to pick spawn form and then being able to pick from a list of different creatures you may have built up.

    Like, imagine an arena but now add your idea to that, where you would pick, say, a lizzard man and then he would drop into the arena and you would face off with a regular player.

    So, imagine if you beat a couple of humans. You could get unlocks and add them to the lizzard character, like a ball and chain on the tail and a swirling move where you spin, building the lizzard character up.

    Or imagine it being Fel based only, where you could pick, even human types that have a preset condition, armour, weapons and skills but again, have unlocks, making them more powerful and interesting but you could still build up any type of spawn.

    I like the idea alot but I think you still need to improve the spawns we have. Like, when spawns used to walk into a wall and keep walking or before spawns would heal each other and the hard coded, type of spawn. I think we still need more. A way to give them individuality because I think even, knowing there is a human sometimes might cause you to lose interest because I think we also enjoy PvM as a video game, kind of you versus the computer.
     
  33. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Just thought I'd say, I like the way this thread has gone. Some great discussion and ideas here. :)
     
  34. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @Winker : You seed the Lemons Of Life in my Mind-Gardens, Sour Seer..! It seems I will just have to take it for a little while, to be with old friends and such. Until TSW.