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Simplifying item properties...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Uvtha, Apr 21, 2015.

  1. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I honestly don't have a big issue with item properties as they are, other than from an aesthetic viewpoint, but I know a lot of people seem to, so I wondered, what would be the pros and cons of simplifying items?

    They sort of DID simplify items with the new loot using more property plateaus (5%-10%-15% etc) and I thought why not just go whole hog there and move back to a classic UO style presentation?

    So instead of 1-50% damage increase you had Ruin-Vanquishing again, each step being +10% damage increase. Each property would have 1-5 named stages depending on current range of intensity, leaving only resists represented by numbers.

    From there change the way item gumps look to give a clear "first glance" impression, not only using colors to give an easy an estimation of property strength (damage increase for example Ruin could be dull red, while Vanquishing Bright red with a black border) but also separate out properties from basic item info like base damage, weight, whatever, so you can easily see what is a magic property and what isn't (Pinco already covered this for the EC) Also implement the colored resist system from Pinco's into the CC, and have appropriate color glow if one of the properties is a resist bump.
    Add colors to the names of items for type (minor magic-legendary artifact) to increase the ease, with unique artifacts having their own hues depending on the item.

    Of course I would also add an entry into the "codex of wisdom" (remember that thing?!) that explains the numbers behind each property.

    I can see one big con being less flexibility when crafting. The other obviously being the work and testing required to make it happen. Pros being simplicity for the non min/maxers, making it easier to judge items at a glance, and more immersive item representation ("Arcane Alacrity" beats "Faster casting 1" in my eyes).

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Right now colored rng items deal part elem damage associated with this color, red = fire, green = poison, purple = energy etc.
    Names can confuse new players etc, also with numbers you don't have to look up the guides to know the DI. Right now you hover over an item and know all the properties. Usually you sort out "unravel junk" from "worthy arties" by certain property values, like splinter, sdi and the lack of stuff like brittle or antique or nonreparable.
     
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  3. The Craftsman

    The Craftsman Lore Master
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    UO: AoS (age of spreadsheets)
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    By definition this would not ease any complexity, merely would make it difficult, or impossible, to adapt and customize, which is more likely to be alienating.

    I think it's safe to say that, at this point, most players have adapted.

    -Galen's player
     
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  5. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I don't think it would make it impossible, it would just be different, but fair enough.
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    That's how it used to be, and no one had any issues. The codex of wisdom is in game (? on the toolbar), though I doubt any one knows it.
     
  7. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    The codex is okay but hard to navigate properly to get the required information fast.
    Simplifying would indeed make things simplier, but complexity is not always bad. If I look at the loot now, I can see all the numbers and thus know how much is it of use to certain templates or goals I know, how much does it fit them, where can I use them and are they rare or not.
     
  8. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Like I said, I don't have an issue with them. I would prefer something more thematic, but it's not important.

    And yes the codex is a mess. It's needed a major major upgrade for like 10+ years.
     
  9. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    If you see Tanivar around tell him I've brought him five packs of unravel junk and there will be more.
     
  10. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Except Ruin-Vanquishing weren't actually 5-10-15% etc, it was +1-+9 base damage an additional +2 if the item was exceptional (these items were converted to +5% di/level of the old property system), the percentage bonus came from your strength, tactics, anatomy, & lumber-jacking (if applicable).

    As far as simplifying item properties, I think there should just be an in-game menu under options, that would have a detailed description of each item property. similar to how weapon specials appear in the book on your paper-doll, or better yet, add a tool-tip when you highlight a stat/property on your status-bar.

    If there are going to be more properties added in the future, it would be nice if something were done to make the information more easily accessible in-game.
     
  11. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    With how insane the armor is now..I see no issue with revamping crafting with gems and bumping the imbue weights up. (~1000 maybe)
    (Adds Brittle)
    Enchanting!
    Splinter Gems- 5%,10%,15%,20%,25% no 30% to still keep them valuable
    (Can only be done with a 120 smith)
    (You must use each gem no skipping) "how scrolls should of been"
    Example: to get it to 15% you need to enchant 5% then 10% and finally 15%..and do it for every property!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Personally I miss a much simpler time when we didn't have to fuss and worry about all this object stuff and could focus more on what mattered like community...

    I miss crafters in towns who repaired your items and it wasn't like you were risking multi-million dollar outfits back then..... anyone could get you a new valorite heavy archer set... I also miss when putting a suit together was easy and I didn't have to fire up my brain and pull out a spreadsheet to put something together I could just get on a crafter and whip out a new suit....

    Granted I do like item insurance... and the new styles of armor are rather nice it's nice not to see everyone wearing the same exact suits for the same builds... etc... and it's kinda nice to have skills put into suits and all .... but I think all this item hunger has somewhat ruined the game... IMO.

    Gone is much of the community banding together to take down foes in a dungeon.... gone are the simpler times.... and now is the time of greed and soloistic gameplay.

    Sometimes.... I wish we could get some of that back.

    Legendary Crafting +GM Arms Lore + Reforging + Imbuing + Enhancing and Refining all is too much... IMO.

    I'd be happy if we could lose Reforging and Refining and just use Crafting and Imbuing.... just raise the caps for Imbuing again and add more options and take most these ridiculous extra steps away as well as the 13,000 added pieces of crap you need to have on hand to craft anymore.
     
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  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    No, I know, I just mean there were 5 stages of the property "plus damage".
     
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  14. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well that lack of community was in large part due to insurance and other additions that made the world more safe, and thus requiring less cooperation. So I think that goose is well cooked.
     
  15. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I'm going to have to disagree with that. What really killed it I believe is the properties of items..... didn't take long before item properties outgrew the mobs. We had a great wonderful guild full of folk and going out on Muster on Saturday night was awesome... until it came to a point when there wasn't much to hunt to make it a "Challenge" anymore as one person could take on a Paragon Balron alone... then hunting as a party was dead... We tried champ spawns but at the time hacks and cheats were pretty rampant and it just didn't pay to even try when the shard we are on had a massive Zerg guild that used every hack and cheat known... we tried factions... again not much fun when some folk could move through any blockade with ease as if it weren't there.... they would have folk in your faction and kill you from the inside... without consequence and you couldn't really use much to protect yourself from them stealthing about as they were GREEN to you.. and most your counter measures to bring them out wouldn't work on them... became more of a frustration than a joy. But that's how Zergs work.

    At any rate itemization and they lowering of the spawn rate to such levels that one or two people can clear an entire dungeon in a matter of moments leaving nothing to do but stand about and be bored.

    And piling on HP onto a mob does NOT make it challenging it makes it a grind and boring. THAT is the reason there isn't any reason to be in a guild or group anymore. What would you do? It wasn't insurance. And it wasn't about being safe.... it's about the lack of a challenge and the lack of things to do that aren't either a boring grind or a mind numbing wait. I've been playing many other games and it's the challenge that I enjoy. In Diablo it's seeing if I can kill things on higher and higher levels... the mobs get harder and harder... not because they have more HP... though they do to a point.... but they do more specials and such. They move faster... cast more things... get more violent.... However Arcane Legends has an Elite mode... but that's just a bad grind since they upped the HP of the mobs and also their resists. So it's whack whack whack a billion and one times and then they made the bosses hit 10X harder..... which is pretty deadly. But you have to go as a group to do them and they up the rewards in both games as well the harder things you do... the better the reward.

    UO doesn't really do that. Many rewards are incredibly disproportionate to the level of difficulty. Take 99% of the sea creatures.... they aren't worth killing since they don't drop squat most of the time. And you can't count Corgul as a sea creature since he LIVES on an island. He be a land lubber. Sea Serpents, Kraken and other things in the water suck for loot and everyone knows it. IT takes a mob to take down Osridain.... (sp) ... but no one wants to do him because the loot sucks and the drop rate of the "good" stuff is so low it's pathetic. 2 people can do Despise. That's a shame. Exodus is a decent challenge for a group but gathering the keys is a grind no one wants to do ... and making them is too expensive.

    Champ spawns outside of Fel are no longer worth doing... and many folk have ZERO desire to go against the Zergs... it has become such an item hungry game that many folk make their character to suit what they do... they don't want to completely rework skills and suits to change to fighting other players AND mobs.. they want one or the other...... and it's the ITEMS that have made the problem. Not insurance.
     
  16. utilitron

    utilitron Adventurer

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    I don't think the properties themselves are the problem. The big issue for me is presentation. It is not intuitive. Especially in the CC.
    EC makes things a little better, but there are so many mods.
     
  17. LetheGL

    LetheGL Seasoned Veteran
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    Going from looking at a single numerical percentage to either remembering or looking up what the different combinations of a two word textual description do isn't simplifying.
     
  18. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    The main simplification would be stages rather than a range. Sort of how the new loot generator works. I only suggested names rather than names and numbers for thematic value, but im probably in the minority wanting that.
     
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  19. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Yes please. I don't know what's good anymore. And by good I mean elite and by elite I mean able to be sold on my vendor.
     
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  20. LetheGL

    LetheGL Seasoned Veteran
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    It's all good, I was just stating the obvious! :eyes: A set of defined intensity bumps would be easier to understand
    compared to a range of 1-100. Personally, I like being able to tailor a temp down to a tenth of a point.

    I'm confused. What is it that you are trying to say?
     
    #20 LetheGL, Apr 24, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, I don't mind it really, I was just kinda spitballing. Really my only issue with the itemization as is is 1) presentation and 2) its based around permanence, and I play on a full loot shard, so it can be a real annoyance to gear up sometimes.
     
  22. Angel of Sonoma

    Angel of Sonoma Certifiable
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    Amen.

    It was so easy to understand Ruin, Might, Force, Power, and Vanquishing (and Silver) for weapons. And Defense, Guarding, Hardening, Fortification, Invulnerability for armor. Then along came AoS. (Whoever coined the term Age of Spreadsheets was spot on.) After I finally grasped those changes it changed again. I'm finally able to figure out what is good regarding armor and jewelry. But I'm semi-clueless about the weapons (probably since my mains are not dexxers).

    Aye, but due to dwindling populations we have to adapt to solo gameplay as well.
     
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  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I really don't think it would be any easier to figure out what was good, if you can't figure it out now. All the properties would functionality be the same, the weight range would just be smaller and have a different name.
     
  24. Angel of Sonoma

    Angel of Sonoma Certifiable
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    i disagree. for a new player (or even a casual player) it's much easier to understand a simplified description which was used pre-AOS. all the frigging mods in today's descriptions are confusing as hell unless you are a seasoned vet.

    [​IMG] upload_2015-4-24_12-35-20.png
     
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  25. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well, the new item gives you MUCH more information, and all of the properties save splinter pretty much tell you exactly what they do, a day one player would understand their basic function immediately, if not in explicit detail, but then again, in 99% of cases you don't need explicit detail of the games mechanics. What does silver do? What does of Vanquishing mean?

    The only reason it was easy to know if an item pre AOS was valuable was because there were only 3 valued stats: Plus weapon damage, Slayers, and Plus AR. The rest was just window dressing. Now a days there are dozens of valuable stats, and on top of that none of them are universally valuable, just commonly.

    My idea wouldn't lessen how many properties there are, or how valuable they would be, it would only lessen the range of intensity, and the visual presentation. So if you don't know whats good now, you won't know whats good after my idea was put into place.
    @LetheGL was right when he said it was just a trade off of the explicit for the implicit. I was suggesting words rather than numbers simply because it appeals to my personal aesthetics, not because it's easier to understand. It's harder to understand if anything.

    For example "A splintering, Vampiric, Katana of Vigor, and Fireballs, and Mana preservation" is not easier to gauge than the modern info gump you presented, especially to a new player.

    The whole "age of spreadsheets" thing is really not accurate. The only time you need to min/max to a degree that a spreadsheet is useful is when you are soloing a boss. All other siuations you can really do whatever you want and be pretty effective even up to and including group boss fights, I really don't think it's even all that complicated. For example I am 100% sure that people who say things like that play the game without spread sheets (I certainly don't use them) and get along just fine.

    I do agree the current item info presentation is not good. It's good that that info is there but the basic blends in with the magic properties in a very avoidable manner. Pinco's EC has it right, separating the magic properties from the basic info. They should do that with the CC, if only by coloring the text of the properties.
     
  26. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    If I wanted Solo Gameplay I'd be playing a stupid console game or something like The Sim's Medieval..... I play an MMO-RPG because I want a MULTIPLAYER - Role-play experience.