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Skill increase bugs

Discussion in 'UHall' started by chad, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. chad

    chad Sage
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    So, I mean these bugs have been in the game for over a decade and I feel like most people don't know some of them or have just accepted it. However, seeing as there's actual patching happening again, maybe we can get these fixed.

    1. + Bushido skill - If you use jewelry to increase your bushido skill, your nerve strike damage is not increased with it. At 120 skill, the bonus damage from nerve strike should be 15-25. You can see in this screenshot where my real skill was 100 (using jewels to reach 120) that I hit for 11, which is well below the minimum.[​IMG]
    2. + Spirit speak skill - If you have real skill below 100, but use items to go over 100, you cannot see or understand ghosts.
    3. + Parry skill - Using + parry skill items does not increase your ability to successfully evade attacks.
    4. + Weapon skill - If you use items to go above 70/90 skill, you don't gain the ability to use special moves.
    5. + Tactics skill - Same issue as + weapon skill.
     
    #1 chad, Nov 15, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  2. Trevor Peterson

    Trevor Peterson Adventurer

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    Yeah, some small bugs just get overlooked. I would like to see bugs like these fixed too! Also add tactics to the 300combat skill point LMC bonus!
     
  3. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The easiest way to verify if #3 works like that is to make an elf, set bushido to 20.0 & use a shield with +30.0 or more parry on the armor suit/jewels, if the shield ever loses durability, then #3 would be incorrect..

    I know for sure all the others are the way you say they are, I'm sure the weapon skill special requirements & spirit speak thing is as intended.
     
  4. MordecaiUO

    MordecaiUO Visitor

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    Stupid bugs.
     
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  5. chad

    chad Sage
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    Erm, my mistake on the parry thing. It actually has to do with evade -- I edited my post appropriately.

    Intended or not, I believe they should be changed. It's archaic and obnoxious.
     
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  6. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Bump. great topic and needs addressing.

    @Kyronix any input from the dev's?
     
  7. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Changing that would unbalance so much in pvp builds. If they change this bring back special toggles..wild Wild West style again with hybrids..screw the whole parry Mage vs archer or deathstriker fights


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  8. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    Like a third world country building a water park in the middle of a drought.
     
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  9. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    No. 4 and 5 are not bugs. You have always been required to have REAL skill to be able to use special moves. There has to be some point in taking the time to gain real skill instead of using jewels.
     
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  10. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    There are so many things outdated in this game there needs to be changes made.
     
  11. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Real skill is needed for special moves and masteries. This is not a bug. So Weapon skills and Tactics appear to be working fine.

    Very interested in the parry "bug". I've not seen this myself particularly, but needs to be addressed ASAP if true.
     
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  12. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i think what gets people is that until pub 46 you didnt need any tactics skill at all to use the specials. and now you cant even use jewels to reach the min tactics level. So yes, you needed real skill, but that real skill used to be 0 for tactics.

    looking back, that publish was a huge blow to pvp. killed off many unique templates, it was the end of one of my pvp runs and i left the game for wow for a while.
     
    #12 Smoot, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
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  13. chad

    chad Sage
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    Your argument is that you want there to be a point in training skills? I hate to break it to you, but taking a weapon skill to 90 from 0 is about a 2 hour task -- which is the current minimum threshold for using a special. So, you're against a two hour task being taken to a one hour task? Let's not make arguments based on "how things have always been."

    In a substantial amount of PvP templates, 90 tactics is all a person would want. If that person needs +15 skill added to their suit to complete a template and they come across a bracelet that has perfect mods, but the skill increase is in tactics, then that bracelet becomes useless. They have to search for a similar bracelet, with skills placed elsewhere. Why should certain skills on jewelry be so heavily devalued?

    Regardless of whether or not we can agree on tactics/weapon skill changes, I hope we can bring attention to the bugs surrounding bushido and parry.
     
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  14. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Not gona say anything other than any kind of +skill items *definitely* don't work right.
     
  15. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    #2, #4, and #5 are working properly as conceived, intended, and originally implemented.

    I understand you do not approve of this but calling it a bug does not change the fact.

    The time taken to train skills is irrelevant, as is not being able to use the jewls you want. Many jewls that spawn are functionally useless.

    Lets not make arguments based on how we want things to be. Deal with it.
     
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  16. chad

    chad Sage
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    At what point did anyone declare the system intended? Is there any documentation of that? Even if it is intended, don't you think that nearly 13 years down the road, that the system might deserve reevaluation?
     
  17. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I think a lot needs to be reevaluated but i would almost say for the worse not better. Under no circumstances should someone who invested 60 points in stealth, 100 in hiding and 90 in ninja with +30 ninja +60 stealth do as much damage as someone with 120/120/100 real skill. There's no real consequences or reward for running hybrid vs pure templates..the devs have been very inconsistent when adding and revamping skills for a lot of years now. Possibly because their pvp focus groups were just stratics mods and career spawners.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    This is legit.

    Can you imagine the templates if they allowed specials from jewelry?

    This should never happen, ever.
     
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  19. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Yea, totally.

    And for those that take the time to hunt for insane loot just remember you got your nerf because of those that don't have it. Oh, he has the best weapon in game and it's OP compared to my basic imbued weapon...

    If someone has the best suit in game they should be able to use it as effectively as anyone else.

    This 120 pure skill garbage is like the old testament, a thing of the past.
     
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  20. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    UO is, and always has been, about making choices. You can have the power of extra skills, or you can have the power of a special move on your weapon.
    Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it. The masteries too ask you to make this choice, extra skills or special ability - not both.
     
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  21. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Sweet!

    Keep holding the game back from evolving into what it should be.
     
  22. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    No, I'm only repeating what the developers have said - repeatedly.
    Who decides what the game should evolve into being? You?

    Queen had a song to describe your attitude.



     
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  23. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    I laughed more than I should have at this.
     
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  24. Ossy

    Ossy Adventurer

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    Below is what I think the game should be.
     
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  25. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    No, you argued this to death in the focus group and you will also argue this to death going forward. Nice attempt at hiding behind the devs when you are CLEARLY against it.

    They allowed us to have a discussion in favor of, or against, and all you did was state the same dribble over and over just like you are doing now. Keep holding the game back, petra!

    [​IMG]
     
  26. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    My memory of that discussion does not coincide with yours.



     
  27. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Would you have PvPers decide how taming should work?

    Would you have rpers decide how champ spawns are spawned?

    Would you have PK decide the Luna bank deco?

    ..probably not?

    Good thing a PvP system like VvV was decided by all Trammies! Like every other "focus group" it's a group of the "favorites" except the favorites thinking is completely blue..and does nothing but hold everything back in the name of progress.


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  28. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    It's called being consistent.

    by the way, did you have permission to quote from that private board? You didn't have mine.
     
  29. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Lol


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  30. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    I don't need your consent in a public forum...
     
  31. chad

    chad Sage
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    What? It's not restricting any templates...at all. Like, not a single one. Skill increase can be found elsewhere, usually with very little problem. It makes very little sense that you need 90 real skill for weapons, but every other skill in the game is unaffected. ie; magery, eval, taming, resist, healing, etc.
    The reward is that they're not investing 840 property intensity into their suit.
    Your argument is that there would be a massive power shift by allowing special moves via skill increase. (Example: I have 60 real weapon skill and use items to reach 120) If a template requires +60 skill increase, it can be found literally anywhere else. In magery, eval, resist, healing, taming, lore. You speak of consistency, but the only thing inconsistent is that certain skills are devalued by broken game mechanics.
     
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  32. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    If this is the same private board I read, I distinctly remember reading a very clear sticky stating what would happen if anything posted there was repeated outside of those forums.

    More of the "I want it all" attitude. You screwed up Gus. Time to live with it.
     
  33. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Maybe they will exclude him from all the lucrative "focus" groups!! Oh noesses!!! Your bridge has been burned buddy!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  34. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    What?

    Yea, I sure do want this game to function as intended...Do you?

    Trying to keep a 20 year old game the same through out it's existence is definitely the right approach. Keep up the good work, Acid!
     
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  35. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Of course it's not restricting, that's the problem.

    Devaluing certain skill attributes against others is what we call balancing.
     
  36. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I am however for making armslore/forensic/itemid/tasteid/begging not count towards skill cap. Unless they plan on revamping the uselessness of them at least do this so people would actually use them, even if for RP purposes. I would find it amusing when fighting in a city to beg from an npc while I'm being casted on..would add amusement to my day


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  37. chad

    chad Sage
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    Can you explain what balance this brings? Can you explain how this would negatively impact anything? You keep saying things and provide no insight, which leads me to believe you don't really know.
     
  38. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Well to provide a bit more insight:

    A. I browse off and on through the day which doesn't always give a great deal time to give lengthy explanations.

    B. It's generally on my phone so it's even worse to type out an explanation that, as vets, I would expect to have some knowledge in it.

    I didn't think I really need to explain why allowing an 840 cap and jewelry without some balance would make everything overpowered, and almost impossible to predict which templates will need nerfed in order to stop them from being invincible, especially in PVP, making it an endless cycle we've already been fighting for years. (Generally when this occurs everyone tends to play the same template, so if you happen to have a bunch of invincible people in pvp this doesn't really create the need to want to go out and pvp).

    So while this may make PVM more convenient to do when playing solo, eventually people will get bored because they did not compensate the AI to adjust for these overpowered templates. Who wants to play something they can reach the end game of quickly? I used to GM for a game which catered to convenience, and they eventually ended up losing a great deal of players because others couldn't either compete (let alone new players) or they got bored. (Talk about a thankless job, I would never do it again).

    Most of these arguments are predictable, so I don't bother to make it an endless circle where I explain the same things over and over. (Next comment would be "you haven't explained anything or "I don't care about pvp")

    So while I could sit here and explain how adding more skills to each template such as a sampire would cause imbalance, I do expect those in favor of the idea to do their own homework to explain why we should be doing this outside of "convenience".

    As far as balance now we will use a mage and a dexer for example. The trade off here is that a mage can cast with delayed time (about 2 seconds for higher damage spells)with a 100% of it landing with a successful cast, where as a dexer can swing as fast as 1.25 seconds which chances to miss with a potentially higher damage rate.

    With more skills you can essentially combine the two, and if you recall back and think of those who were casting flamestrike and using a halberd were going around instantly killing people. Of course, this particular example isn't likely but with 840 skill and jewelry and equipment potential you could be running around with 1000 skill points.

    Who wants to fight a tank mage that jumps off a bane dragon and nails you with an explosion ai?
     
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  39. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    I think you either posted that in the wrong thread or misunderstood his statement about 840 property weight. He wasn't referring to 840 skill...

    He hasn't once asked to increase skill cap, that is another thread that is active. He is asking for existing bugs to be fixed and for skill bonus to be applied to tactics. His arguments are extremely valid. A mage can bump eval and still hit max casting potential. A warrior cannot bump tactics to the 90 threshold and acquire special moves...
     
  40. chad

    chad Sage
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    You appear to have misinterpreted what this thread is about, as the kind gentlemen above me has pointed out.
     
  41. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Theyre really in the same boat about balance, though I did carry over some of the same argument from the other thread it's true. I had just finished responding to the other thread prior to this.

    Can you imagine the amount of specials used on templates that should never have them?

    Smoke bombs on about every template, dismounting on any template, etc etc.

    You get the point so regardless of the skill cap, its practically the same argument.
     
  42. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    What?

    You realize that skill increase is already in the game, right? So, by adding it to achieve tactics/mele special moves what is that going to change exactly?

    Other skills are allowed the full benefit of consuming +skill points while the special moves threshold is not. If you are going to fit 30+ points in your template you can already fit them through other skills. All this would do is allow certain jewels that land with Tactics or Mele to become more useful...

    Right now there is a work around in order to achieve this, what would it honestly break if that work around was taken out of the game?
     
  43. chad

    chad Sage
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    ???

    wat?

    Are you sure you understand what this thread is about? None of what you're saying has any basis in reality. I'm going to try and explain this in a very basic manner because you seem to be struggling here.

    1. IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM, if you have 75 real skill in tactics and you use a piece of jewelry to raise your tactics skill to 90, it does not allow you to use the secondary special move. This DEVALUES the skill tactics on items.
    2. Of course, you can still achieve your same template without problem by having 90 real skill in tactics and using a jewel with something like +15 eval.
    3. In both scenarios you have 720 real skill +15 from items for a total of 735. The only difference in the scenarios, is that one does not allow you to use special moves because of a broken game mechanic.
     
  44. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Uh that didn't refute anything I know how the mechanics work.

    People aren't going to waste real skill when they can slap on 80 points of jewelry and items, generally using much lower real skill, Depending on which special you want primary or secondary.

    This opens up a good deal more of templates that won't be balanced, for example some of the templates that sacrifice magic resist, (evil omen death strike templates.

    If I have to explain how each template works and the trade of each then you really don't understand what you're asking for.

    I'm not big into the "here's my idea, now prove me wrong" without adding anything to support it.
     
  45. chad

    chad Sage
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    LOL.

    Do you not understand that skill can be found elsewhere? That ZERO new templates will be available? You're either trolling or just dumb, not sure which.
     
  46. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    Having a check for "real Skill" Vs Total Skill from items just seems silly at this point.

    Tamers can Control Greater Dragons With 75 Real Skill + 45 on Suit, but God forbid if I could do a secondary ability armor ignore with the same level.
    Mages Can Directly Increase their Skill and % Chance to Cast spells, and their block chance with a mage weapon, without having to worry about their base Skill.
    Stealthers can have 50 Base Stealth and go all the way to 120 without effecting their ability to stealth or lowering their deathstrike damage.
    Same concept with stealing.

    I wouldn't suggest doing away with tactics for weapon specials, but I see no reason for it to be Real Skill VS Skill increase when almost no other templates, other than bards, are hindered by skill increase.
     
  47. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Adding specials that weren't previously available because of real skill will change templates.

    I understand you haven't grasped much of what I've been saying, but the problem isn't on this end.

    I'm not sure what your argument is
    In favor if you're trying to tell me this doesn't change anything.
     
  48. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    You aren't going to get sensible answers/discussion from the majority of these people, as you've probably already noticed. I went to bat about this in a thread a while back too, which proceeded to be shat upon by people who didn't know better or understand mechanics.
     
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  49. chad

    chad Sage
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    TEMPLATE ONE:
    120 mage
    120 eval
    120 resist
    120 swords
    100 inscription
    75 tactics (+15 jewel) == 90 tactics
    65 med

    TEMPLATE TWO:
    120 mage
    105 eval (+15 jewel) == 120 eval
    120 resist
    120 swords
    100 inscription
    90 tactics
    65 med

    Do you understand the difference in these two templates? In the end, they reach the same number of skill points that are distributed in the same fashion. However, due to restrictions in real skill for tactics, template two is superior since you can perform secondary special moves. Allowing template one to work the same as template two is what I'm asking for. ZERO new templates would come to fruition.
     
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  50. chad

    chad Sage
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    It's like I'm in some kind of fked up twilight zone.