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So if I complain about a grossly overpowered part of the game, I'm jealous?

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Extra Value Meal, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. Where the hell does that come from and can this "argument" really be said with a straight face?

    So upon reading that the Sampire Flavor of the Month template is getting the "kick in the nuts" and eventually +skill jewelry is going bye bye, I was a very happy person. It's about damn time the Devs are cleaning up this place. Better late than never.

    The problem is, from what I've seen, that this overpowered stuff has been in the game for so long, people have a genuine problem that it's getting removed. It's overpowered, it's getting fixed, adapt or die.

    And now for the topic of Peerless bosses. Peerless bosses are considered by the VIPs of this game, ie. THE DEVS, that peerlesses are the high-end monsters of the game which provide the toughest challenges for anyone who would stand against them. But, we have people who can solo them and defend this indefensible position by claiming that players should not have to group for high-end content or that the skills and items (taming included) which give you the ability to solo these monsters are NOT overpowered.

    People, these are bosses who drop some of the best loot in the game. Why the Hell do you think they should be soloable? Also, to those who "don't want to be forced to group", you don't HAVE to group for 99% of the content in this damn game. Yet you moan and complain when you hear you should for the last 1%. Boo hoo :sad3:. UO is an MMO and that means there are some instances where you have to collaborate to get things done. Deal with it. And then I heard the most hilarious defense of this argument ever: Players who can't solo peerlesses but want it to be nerfed so you have to group to fight them, are jealous. Jealous?! I think the hilarity speaks for itself. Jealous because I can point out something so flawed in this game. Wake up.

    How can one deny that we're in a bind where every new artifact introduced HAS to be better than everything previously, or else the pixel hungry hordes won't farm it? Stuff is so grossly overpowered right now I simply cannot believe it. UO is the only MMO out there which "allows" its players to solo everything in this game, but nobody sees a problem with this? Oh that's right, you don't really care. As long as items are flooding into your backpack, you haven't a care in the world. But when something needs fixing that you religiously rely upon, even though it is OP, let the war begin. Well, welcome to MMOs, the constantly changing, constantly fixed genre of games.

    Deal with it.

    And yes, I'm totally expecting to be flamed for this, but you know what? I don't give a ****. Sometimes there are things people just need to hear.
     
  2. UltimaSword

    UltimaSword Guest

    I won't flame. I agree.
     
  3. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    Well said. I give this post two thumbs up. :thumbup:
     
  4. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Then let us all get flamed together cuz I agree 110%
     
  5. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    This post makes me laugh.

    Just because I can solo a monster that you can't you need to cry nerf? Get real and face the fact that there are many people who are better than you at the game. It doesn't matter what change they make I will always put a template together to solo whatever spawn they throw at me.

    The fact that UO doesn't force its players to group for PvM is the reason why many people still play this game.
     
  6. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Thats why they removed Brock from the game because once he spawned in an area without anything to provo on him, he was unbeatable and too many ppl cried.
     
  7. Why do you think they shouldn't be would be a better question.

    "My opinion" isn't a reason either. Neither is the fact that this is an MMO. The first holds no weight and the second only means that there are other people online in the game world when you are.

    It takes a group of 3-4 9 minutes or less to take down Mel, but can take a solo person 30 minutes. I don't see a problem with that.
     
  8. UltimaSword

    UltimaSword Guest

    Do you know what peerless means? They have no peers! The Sampire was an abuse of the game. I mean come on it is obvious. I really could care less if people solo or not but I don't want to hear crying when they change it to how it was supposed to be.
     
  9. I agree, you made a really good point. All this nonesense about nerfing this and that and crying about it, is getting really freaking old. UO is supposed to be about community so all the devs did was fix an EXPLOIT and yes it was an EXPLOIT. There's a difference between jeweling up and keeping the skill level up at all times and jewleing up casting a spell then changing everything. It's ridiculous that anybody got attached to that workaround or whatever you want to call it. They had to know one day it would get fixed. Peerless, Doom Gauntlet etc should never have been managable for one person.
     
  10. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    I'm asking this out of curiosity more than anything else.

    Why are you playing a MMORPG as though it was a console game? I'm positive there are single player games that are superior in game play to UO. And if it's so you can talk with others, there is AIM, Yahoo, ICQ, MSN, etc. to take care of that. I really see no draw in playing a game that should be group centric as a solo game. I really see none at all. I'd like to hear why.
     
  11. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    They didn't fix anything, they just made it more item dependant. Anyone who was running the old sampire build already has the equipment to make the necessary changes to continue to run the new sampire build.

    I eagerly look forward to your next cry session when we still solo the peerless.
     
  12. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Ok, here is why. I don't want to share the loot of a dreadhorn. I want to keep it and sell the items to improve my PvP suits and weapons.

    I PvP with groups, and PvM by myself.

    Hows that? And just because you say it should be a group centric I have to have the same opinion?
     
  13. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    2 people can team up and kill everything in this game.

    I wouldn't even call having to find 1 other person...forced grouping.
     
  14. I already explained why. They drop the best loot in the game and are the toughest monsters out there.

    Now I get it!
     
  15. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Finding these colaborators is in most cases is a real pain. Finding a group that dosent get its arse handed to them in the first two minutes is even harder.

    This argument is very real, uo trulely does not have the supporting player base to give your " this is a mmo argument much water". As even more players leave soloing is going to be paramount as the group players leave for greener pastures.

    Play with your self much?
     
  16. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Exactly.

    Not to mention anyone with 2 accounts and a vm can do the same.


    It's funny when you see 5 topics about some topic that's barely meaningful and the game hasn't had any decent content in over 3 years. What the next thing they are gonna nerf/change/improve we don't really care about that will occupy us for another month? :coco:
     
  17. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I see, because you can't do it nobody else should be able to?

    http://www.tissues.com/getsome
    (Copyright JoO 2008)
     
  18. Doom bosses, specifically the Dark Father, drops the best loot in the game, not Peerless. The only "good" thing you could name specifically that Peerless drop are the Crimson Cinctures. DF's drop Doom arties, plus the CC's, which puts them at the top of the list, and DF's being solo'd has been going on for years, and not by dexxers, yet I don't see anyone complaining about that.
     
  19. What about your guild? Or join one geared towards killing peerless bosses?
     
  20. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    By original design, this game was intended to be group centric. It's not my opinion. It simply is the way that it is.

    I still think the bosses should not be soloable. The unfortunate thing is that in order to make them non-soloable, they either have to improve the boss (through hit points and damage, or better AI if possible, though doubtful) which only irritates the players, or nerf the players, which only irritates the players.
     
  21. I am. I may not have mentioned Doom bosses, but they are certainly in the same suit.
     
  22. Locker

    Locker Guest

    It seems reasonable that a multiplayer game would have certain mobs or objectives that can only be completable by multiple players. Being able to complete these tasks or kill these mobs solo does seem to be a glaring balance problem.

    If you have the good fortune, skill or luck to be able to solo this content then that may be admirable but you shouldn't be shocked if changes are made to correct the balance problem.

    Peace,

    Locker
     
  23. Hahahaha!!!! I'm jealous! It has to be the only reason!!!
     
  24. LadyNico

    LadyNico Always Present
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    :ten: :ten: :ten: :ten: :ten:

    You know, if I wasn't already married, I'd propose.
     
  25. If you do it by legitimate means then fine knock yourself out. Dicimiie said it best, why waste your time on a MMO if you want to play solo? I understand it's the challenge of beating it, but the way all these Sampires are complaining it's too easy. So whats the point?
     
  26. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrrr, now me does be jealous!!
     
  27. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    THIS! This is the reason I prefer to do Peerless and Doom with no more that 3 people, and actually prefer 2. The more people you add, the less cooperation you have, and chaos ensues! One or two people can key up for Mel slick as getout ... get 5 people in there, and you end up with Hydra's and Coil and Tangle and everything else drug up to the entrance.

    The problem with groups is that everyone has their own idea of how something should be done, and none want to work WITH the others. Or, in some cases, like Mel and Dreadhorn, it is just so pathetically easy and boring with more than 2-3 people that it makes me want to cry. Heck, the loot on Dread is so bad it is hardly worth taking more than one character. A useless kryss? A Horn? A flute? A HEAD? Come on ...
     
  28. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Orny sell for 12.5 mil on LA which comes from DF's
    Crystaline ring sell for 18 mil on LA which comes from Shimmering Effusion.
    Both Drop CC's according to you but I yet to get one from a DF.
    Ornys that i have recieved from DF's ZERO
    CR's from Shim 4 and CC's from Shim 3
    Shim is alot easier than DF's and the spawn is easier to control at Shim.
    Oh and just to set the records straight I dont solo Shim, It a two tamer adventure.
     
  29. "So if I complain about a grossly overpowered part of the game, I'm jealous? "

    Why would anyone care what you complain about. Go ahead.

    The makers of the game cba to make clear whats intended and what isn't, probably because most of them don't know. Yet laughably a lot of players think they do, thats why pretty much all of the threads along these lines mean absoloutely nothing.
     
  30. Ok, so I forgot one item. One that isn't guaranteed to drop either. And another I forgot is the Mark of the Travesty, which is pretty damn rare too.

    Doom has guaranteed artifact drops, no Peerless does.
     
  31. I don't know dude. These complaints mean something to somebody as sampires are getting a fix along with many other long-overdue changes. Take it as you will.
     
  32. lol, but their not thats the hillarious thing, all these people who don't play them are making no end of posts about how it's fixed! how it was an exploit! None of which is true.

    Does it say somewhere that using items in that way was unintended? No, but does everyone think it is, yes. Have the devs said one way or the other, no.
    Now compare that with...
    Does it say somewhere that vamp form is supposed to have -25 fire penalty? Yes, but does anyone post about how you can negate it with items? No. So you could safely assume that the -25 fire being taken from your resists rather than your resist cap is a bug/unintended. But does anyone (specifically the people that are so fanatical about the other part) mention that they want that fixed? No.

    Does that not strike you as a little teensy bit skewed in the logic department, they want the non broken thing fixed while the broken thing is left as is. That is why all what they say means nothing, at least to me. They wouldn't know a fix if it slapped em in the face.

    Even if they 'fixed' vamp form the way the people that don't get whats broken want (so they couldn't solo everything) it'd still be ignoring the fact that you can do it all on the wraith version, and tamers, and probably half a dozen other templates.
     
  33. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    i rofld in my waffles I approve this usage.

    Not everyone is pro like Lynk and myself so I can understand and sympathize with your pain. Here is a break down of how things work illustrated with simple math and elementary concepts.

    Peerless = harder than normal monster I would say 10x harder than your typical high end monster.
    Lynk and I = Better than the average player. I would say 20x better than the average Uhall poster.
    ITS ALL SO SIMPLE!!!!!! :scholar::lick::loser::loser::loser:
     
  34. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    I sorry with out a sandbox filed with the potential of skill bonus items I AM leaving. I do AGREE that the main peerless and bosses shouldnt be soloable though and the removal od skill items will KILL this GAME. I would NOT be playing UO if it wasnt for the freely customizable templates and NON questing standpoint and OPEN MARKET form of wealth obtainment. If I wanted restrictions in game play I would play something that is much more UP TO DATE and aesthetically pleasing. It is the reason I STAY HERE. If WE RUIN skill items I will NEVER COME BACK.

    Soloed peerless naw get rid of that. Lets base the argument on what it realy is. Anything that anybody spends enough time at will seem easy. Just like balron are easy at one time they were unstoppable. Think about it at one time blood eles were "tough". But now its peerless and if they dont add new content above and beyond the power of peerless then everything IS soloable. Its not skill bonus items its the mechanical fundamentals of learning to blame! If you add A given enough time I will find -A and bring the equation to 0 again. Its a simple matter of time.

    Lets not blame intelligence for a lack of it itself!
     
  35. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    Congratulations... you are an elite UO player! You have won UO! You may now unistall the game, knowing that you are the best! Unfortunately, it didn't help your math skills much. Nor did your post have one shred of relevance to the topic.

    I'll bet you're really good at tic-tac-toe as well, huh?
     
  36. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Your post was a poor attempt at trolling. Had nothing to do with topic, just insulted a higher caliber UO player.
     
  37. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    Go out and try and solo various peerless bosses and then come back and tell me how easy it was....

    The nerf never should have happened and it won't effect solo'ing Peerless.What it does is appease the crybabies that seem to make up the vast majority of stratics posters. Had the crybabies on stratics not voiced their opinion claiming Vamp Form to be a bug/expliot would the Dev Team have made any changes...probably not.

    Right now the shard I play on is dead. Since returning 18 months ago I've never seen my shard this empty. When there aren't any more challenges many people up and leave and move onto other things.

    The constant nerfs and changes to appease the whiners are not good for the game and you can trace it back to the Precasting PvP days where people cried about how it was unfair and unbalanced and that archers/dexxers couldn't compete with mages. That nerf lead to a mass exodus and propped up many Freeshard that are still in existence today.

    You'd think the Dev Team would learn from history and it's a shame the Dev team constantly changes because there doesn't seem to be anyone that has the hindsight to see how people generally don't want change what we want is new content and more events.

    What Solo'ing Peerless is...a challenge. Trying to Solo Peerless is about the only thing left in the game that holds my interest.

    You don't hear about people solo'ing Lord Oaks or Rikktor so those of you that want the almighty monster that can't be solo'd have that in Champion Spawns leave the Peerless alone for those of us who want a challenge.

    Devs need to stop comming to stratics and listening to these crybabies. If all these nerfs and changes are a good thing why is my shard absolutelty DEAD!?

    Devs your appeasing the wrong people...
     
  38. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    If you 2 are the pros you claim to be, then you've definately already figured out another way to solo everything you did with you sampire.

    In which case why are you even here posting so passionately about this change which obviously wouldn't even slow down 2 pros such as yourselves?
     
  39. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    Not exactly true. My post had relevance insomuch as I basically said his post had no substance. The fact that I did it in an insulting manner makes it no less a valid statement. And your comment about his being a higher caliber UO player is subjective at best. He might be better at skill manipulation than me, but that hardly makes him a better UO player. I'm probably much better at player-to-player interaction and grouping.

    I suppose the tic-tac-toe comment was over the top. My point still stands.
     
  40. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    I play UO because of the variety. Tons to do and I can pick and choose from it all. I can hunt with my guild, or solo. And if Im willing to put in the work and effort, there is the possibility that I can Solo what other do with groups. Yes this is an MMO, but that doesn't mean I should have to do everything with other people. Sometimes I like to hunt by myself, and that should be allowed. If I want to hunt a Peerless by myself, and it takes me 3 times as long as it would doing it with 3 people... There is NO imbalance to that. Is it faster to do it in groups? Yep! Is it safer in groups? Oh ya! Should I be forced to hunt a peerless with a group? Hell No!!! If I want to invest the time, work, money, and practice to do it myself, and even after all that it still takes me 3 times as long, THEN THAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED! For all you people crying that MMO means you should have to play with others, go play WoW, you'll be back here in a month. UO gives me the opportunity to be a part of a community and to play with others... WHEN I WANT TO. The best part of UO, is that the sky is the limit. If I want to solo a peerless, its possible, Ill just have to invest. It may not even be worth it, but so help me, if I want the satisfaction of knowing that I accomplished the impossible, then who are you to tell me I shouldn't be able to? Sure they are called "Peerless", but guess what? My Dexer is LEGENDARY! No reason a Legendary character should not be able to kill a Peerless monster. In fact by definition, I think its more appropriate that they should be able to don't you? Of course it should be hard, so hard that the majority of people wont ever accomplish it. But it should be POSSIBLE. And that possibility is what makes UO great!

    America is the same way. You can do whatever you want to do if your willing to pay the price. If you wanna play a game that tells you what you can and cannot accomplish, there are a thousand out there. Lets let UO provide us with a world where anything is possible. Pretty sure that when it comes down to it, that was the true intent of this game.

    Sorry Dicimiie, I know you just asked an honest question, and I dont mean to rant at you for it. This is my answer, although the tone is more towards the OP and all the other whiners trying to tell me what I should and should not be able to accomplish based on their own lack of determination and effort.
     
  41. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Why should they make mobs un-soloable since the beginning you could solo the higher end stuff as well? Lich Lords, ogre lords, ancient wyrms etc...

    Pretty sad they chose to nerf/fix this before all of the other stuff that more directly effects the game.
     
  42. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    No need to apologize. I asked the question, expecting an answer. Your answer was not offensive in the least.

    I also understand your reasoning as to why you play UO instead of a console game... to a point. I don't agree with it, but I understand your side of it. I'll agree to disagree on it.
     
  43. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Oh for goodness sake! I want to know this: WHERE did Jeremy or the Dev's ever say that the reason for this fix was because you could use the template to solo anything? I do not believe they did! If you all just step back a minute and think about it, this fix makes sense because it is not something you can do with any other skill (take off the skill boosters and retain the effects). NO ONE said that the Vamp Samurai should not exist! Only that the ability to TAKE OFF THE GEAR AND KEEP THE BENEFITS should not. You can still have a Vamp Samurai, you just have to either keep the items on, or have the real skill (or a combination of the two!)

    Dev's HAVE said that templates are SUPPOSED to be crowded and there are SUPPOSED to be hard decisions, that that is a part of balance! The Vamp IS balanced IF they have to work in the same limitations as everyone else. It is why people DONT complain about Wraith form Samurai's. Because they have to have Spirit Speak to be effective (and now they will have to make sure they have sufficient skill ON AT ALL TIMES to cast the form).
     
  44. Xel Naga

    Xel Naga Guest

    In my opinion it all comes down to jealousy. It's the same reason why some people will simply key a nice expensive car they see in the parking lot for no apparent reason. Real reason behind it? They see a nice expensive car that someone worked very hard to save up and buy and don't think it's fair that they don't have one. Result? They key the car and try to make it uglier because damaging the situation and ruining it for the people who worked hard for their nice things makes themselves feel better for not working hard for anything themselves.

    The same thing applies with the nerfs in the game for the past 10 years. If they see that someone has perfected their skill template, spent hundreds of millions of gold and countless hours of time perfecting a suit of gear to supplement their build, and hours soloing what a group can do in 10 minutes they want it nerfed and make it look like the player can solo it in 5 minutes and get all the loot with no risk. Same exact thing as the real life analogy and keying the cars. The mentality of "If I can't have it, no one can" it's such a childish way to look at things but unfortunately, EA is the parents that spoil the whining child. Instead of telling players to get off their lazy butts and do something constructive to achieve success they dumb down the situation and environment in some way to accommodate the whines. As I've stated in another post http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=104193
    Unfortunately the new staff we have at UO has more than likely never actually played for the entire duration of the game and has no idea of what TRULY needs fixing or how to go about doing it. They simply refer to U.Hall suggestion threads and think that the handful of people voicing their opinions to nerf something means the entirety of UO feels that way. Only such a small portion of the game's playerbase posts on stratics, however they are the ones that dictate where the game goes.

    Nerf threads and 100 pages of crying about a template will get it nerfed within a few publishes. People crying that someone can "solo" a boss easily will get that boss buffed so people can't solo it. Side effect of that? It has 100x more HP and hits 10x harder, now the people who couldn't even do it in a group easily will stand absolutely no chance just so the player who stood out from the crowd and spent time perfecting soloing it can't reap the benefits of his labor.

    It's why I don't bother investing any time making good armor suits anymore. Everything I've made in regards to specific builds such as Vampiric Mages for regen and poison resist becomes useless because someone whines about a build since it poses a challenge for them either in PvP or PvM. Instead of finding a build to better defeat those said builds in their weakpoints they rather complain till it's nerfed and yet another build comes to take its place.

    This game has never left Beta and never will. The Devs have no idea where to take the game because the playerbase would rather continue whining and complaining about anything that gives them a challenge rather than adapting to the situations and letting the game actually become a solid game. Why would ANY new player want to play UO ? They have no idea what they are getting into, everything will change again in a couple of publishes, half the things they buy will end up to be dupes, and customer service is non-existent. The only thing to be grateful for now is the lack of customer service and GMs, at least this way there CAN'T be anymore corrupted GMs abusing their power because they have none to begin with.

    I finished having fun with this game when they canned the only fun thing left for me to do, and that was to attend Event Moderator storyline events on shards. Just because they'd rather waste their budget on other things like nerfing things people whine about enough instead of focusing solely on tracking down every duped item and delete it based on itemID and item creation dates. Or maybe making skills that actually have a purpose: Herding, Item Identification, Taste Identification, Begging.


    Still no logical argument to this so you had to start a new thread to flame it? You see a problem where players who aren't exploiting are soloing content with the same skills and equipment available to you and those too lazy to get it. The only problem I see with that situation is people don't want to put in the work it takes to get the benefits and in turn cry about it to be nerfed. On topics like having VE without the necessary skill I agree that change is one that should've been in place a long time ago. No one should be able to stay in a form without keeping that amount of skill to cast it. However being able to achieve a build whilst keeping all the equipment on and being able to solo content because of it is perfectly legit.

    If someone is able to find and buy a 2/6 Jewelry set with +90 total skills on them then more power to them for taking that time and spending all that money building it. Now you on the other hand would view that and say "oh my that's too overpowered no one should be allowed to have +90 skills on two pieces of equipment ! NERF IT !" What would happen then? 500 other lemmings like yourself would think to themselves, "hey that's not fair I want +90 skills to be given to me easily without any work or time invested but I can't so that person shouldn't be able to benefit from it either"

    Grow up and accept that life comes with many variances. You deal with it and adapt, not whine and cry until someone comes along and feeds you with a silver spoon.
     
  45. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest

    And that is exactly what is wrong with that. Self centered much. Welcome to what once was a community oriented game ruined by itemization.

    Just my opinion.
     
  46. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest

    That was complained about long ago and given up on eventually.
     
  47. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    Thanks for the respectful reply. Its nice to see someone who can disagree on a point and not try to tell me why my point of view is wrong. My logic may be flawed, Im not perfect, but my opinion is my own, and as such can be whatever I want it to be. Again, thanks for your maturity in understanding and acknowledging this.:thumbup1:
     
  48. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I agree with you, I play east coast shards, When I worked funky hours it wasn't uncommon for me to be online at 3-4 am. Most players I know weren't online or weren't willing to go do peerless and other activities at that hour. I've spent almost my entire UO time on the same shard with the exception of about 3 months and for me doing a X-fer to another shard isn't a choice I'm willing to make. Should I have been left out of activities on Chessy because of the hours I had available to play? Nope I don't think so.

    The Templates used to solo these are usually difficult to play and require a lot of work to get them balanced out just right for the individuals play style.

    So to answer the OP?

    Yes if someone can solo it and you can't, and you cry then your either jealous or acting like a lame 4 year old screaming for "fairness" without seeing how it effects the larger picture of things. Isolating some players because it's not your way isn't fair, it's childish and immature. Some people don't like groups, I don't like large one's over 2-3 people at anytime, so if you can't do Doom or a peerless alone or with that few why should you be trying to effect a change so everyone has to follow suit?
     
  49. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

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    Best loot out there is 100+ crappy items with 1-2 mods at 10% intensity? That seems to be a bigger problem than a few select people having the skill to solo peerlesses...
     
  50. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    Isn't it just the slightest bit possible that those of us that don't think certain things should be soloable are bringing it up because we see it as a design issue? I really couldn't care less whether or not my character can solo a boss. I have no desire to even try. Have you watched the video where a sammy took down a boss solo in nine minutes? That's insane. Whether it's possible or not doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that nine minutes to solo it is crazy and overpowered. In my mind, it's an obvious flaw. I wouldn't even see it as a problem if it was two people doing it. But one?