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Discussion in 'UO Catskills' started by Aedon Durreah, Aug 29, 2010.
The author of that light reading has too much time on his hands to try to complicate things.
And in the time it took him to revise that document I...
Crashed a guild meeting in Olympus, gave my feedback and left without incident (rare, I know).
Warmed up my dueling skills, realizing that Aneirin still can't kill Laurana without using "creative tactics" unless I'm really lucky.
Hung out at a bar for a while, drinking, singing and carousing to the best of my ability.
Took a nap.
AND Patrolled New Haven, finding none of the mythical members of this guard.
Sorry for missing the interaction...
I was helping, giving the Sonoma Community a "real" Public Harrower...
Can't be in two places at the same time... unless you are a jamie, uss Baat'leb or a Crazy K.
About the constitution ,that is for RBG only... it brings accountability to the Captains, something that failed alot on Catskills due to special friends being above the rules no matter how many times they broke ROE/ROC.
Lesson in this: Can't expect someone to be the pillar of a Community if they can't come true with a simple community event.
Wait Cat, this is for RBG the guild, then? Its sooo confusing to have a guild named after the overall theme.
I wont tell others what to do... so I invited RBG and the RBG highlighted guilds to discuss this RP RBG Constitution.
Corvak pointed some errors... it was fixed.
Pandora pointed the looting problem... it was fixed.
So it is under revision and on trial.
I can be sure some are accountable and willing to work together... but I can't tell the entire RP community to be responsible and sensitive.
That is "not my problem".
This was the event that gave birth to the idea of a Constitution.
(thank you UP for all these years of fun and interaction)
So this is just your guild's RoE's. Okay.
Yup, if others want to join in it is their call.
I'm responsible and accountable for the actions of those I represent... the constitution makes sure of that.
I would also like to thank GM Joey for taking the time to write this document... I owe you, brother.
Geesh Aneirin what a waste of time playing the game what are you thinking you could have been writing up convoluted documents and trying to pass it out for people to sign.
My thoughts... precisely.
Posting stuff without asking for permission, really rude.
Discussing stuff without having the full picture... really ignorant.
Giving tips without being constructive... I'm used to that.
Things are moving forward... and like the song by U2.
"with or without you..."
It's the internet. If you don't want people to see it, the internet is not the place to put it.
I could direct you to the old rping forums where this also happened... and the rules were simple.
You ask permission to post what other players wrote.
As a registered user on the forums where the manifesto was originally printed. And as a "pillar" Of the RP community. (strange way to spell pillow) I felt it served the full RP community to have the information printed where all could read it.
Open discussion should be just that sir, Open. Had this been a story line, I would have asked permission. But seeing that it was just the same old song and dance;
Boy meets RP
RP makes rules
Boy says HUH
Boy is "kicked out of the RP community."
I thought that we all should have a look, and make it fully open to discussion.
Aedon Durreah- "Pillar" And I approve this message.
Pitr, you have a lot of fine ideas. It is on selling them to the public at large that you lose folks.
I dont need to sell anything...
- you all made RBG.
- you all are now active defenders of the Crown, highlighting evil guilds is much easier...
I'm a great salesman.
And the original post on the rp forums was posted by me... in 2008.
A huge argument started and I was ignored.
If you didnt want a RP Constitution then, why would you want it now?
So the only reason to post something that was RBG IC... in here. Is to draw another argument.
You all can argue what you wish... this RP RBG Constitution is on trial and will be used by those that wish to be accountable, sensible Captains... the others lead as they see fit.
I never told any Captain what to do... I simply ask for feedback and add it to the whole.
Pitr, I shared that with him because he's a CAPTAIN OF THE RBG FOR YEW! As such, he has every right to review, share, and comment by any means he deems preferrable --- not everyone likes UOF.
You are implying that those that do not copy your "constitution" per baetum do not wish to be "accountable, sensible Captains" and that's wrong.
Pitr, you are not the "commander" of the RBG (theme), you cannot tell Captains they MUST highlight you. You cannot tell other regiments that someone you didn't like having as part of your regiment is not allowed to continue with another regiment. You cannot tell other regiments that they are not allowed to be OOC, ever.. nor that they are not allowed to interact with non-RP'ers. You cannot tell other regiments they are required to KOS, ress kill, and "dry loot" players deemed to be traitors by any other person but Commander Kanlocke.
ALL REGIMENTS TAKE ORDERS FROM JUST 1 PERSON --- Commander Kanlocke, who is charged in her post by the Queen.
I told you I did not agree with the looting thing, I didn't discuss the rest because that just stuck out like SORE THUMB. I had not reviewed the rest until recently. You said it was "fixed", it is not because there should NEVER be a situation in RP that calls for looting of any type --- wet or dry!
The purpose of the opposition is to create more opposition. The way that words get twisted is entertaining. This is why all of the actions on the RBG sight are heavily monitered (yes I too agree that it's silly) and then are presented here in a way that reflects negatively on the concept by way of assumptions and "snarky" comments.
I think you ALL have too much time on your hands.
Now lets see how much more time, effort and drama will continue to be added to the mix. Over the last several months I have seen why RP on Cats has been laughable for years. Too much animosity and personal grudges. Too many egos. Too little who actually want to build a community. It's sad to see that our shard can not even work towards a common goal. It would rather inflame the debate.
And this is how YOU ALL lose people.
In the past RP guilds have tried many options when it came to looting. A red bag for instance carried by all who wished to take part in allowed looting containing items that could be taken. Mostly bandages and small trinkets of some gold. This of course still depended largely on the aspect of trust within the community.
For some, a small amount of looting made sense to their RP. Thieves, pirates and undead sorts. The problems that cropped up at times outweighed the desire to make looting viable within RP.
Most of us hold an ROE hat we respect. Their are simple, basic guidelines we follow. What we have found out though is that the more rules you seek to spell out in RP, the more script like the RP becomes.
Keeping it simple and honest works best.
Respect for fellow RPers
No looting (unless arranged for with the guild in advance)
Death robes after a fall for 30 minutes
No bringing an alt back to a fight
Stay in character
Simple rules for what should be a simple project. Play your character. live your character. And respect for others who like you enjoy role playing in Sosaria.
Now this is very helpful and contributes to a resolution. Thanks.
That post was not in character as it used the phrase "RP" in it and other OOC terms in article 3 section 1.
So there Is absolutely no reason he should not have posted a link to something deemed "Public".
And the RP community does work together towards a certain goal they just aren't working towards what you want, which from all this RBG stuff I can only assume is another attempt at a giant shard wide blob alliance.
Good post Aedon. Some of us were interested in reading the proposed constitution to see if it was something we could work with in the future if it comes to it. If we're going to be rping beside each other then I like to know your rules, whether or not I am highlighted to you. *shrug*
Oriana, seriously did you even READ it? Let's see... I will mention all the parts I have issues with BESIDES the looting thing, which is obvious to many here.
This is within the first paragraph:
(Basically all of 3:3 I disagree with entirely)
And Zuckuss, I do not think you understand that without debate and opposition there would be no progress. What you see here, and ask Pitr he'll tell you, would not have happened without rustling up some dust. If people do not TALK about their issues, they hold it inside and then you have all these deep seeded grudges that no one is ever willing to work through. I do not believe in it. If I have a problem, I am going to say it... I am not just going to keep quiet about it and then talk behind people's back about how much I dislike someone's idea or personality. That's not a healthy way to live. And I thought you had learned that EONS ago when you had no idea what a hally-whack-combo was. *winks*
I never approach anything with animosity, sarcasm yes, but not animosity. I have not posted anything that I have not told Pitr himself OR would tell him. He knows that... we disagree a lot. And I do see why people dislike him so much, he comes on very strong... he means well, just executes poorly.
I dunno 'bout thems, but I'm just messin' with Pitr.
Though I do honestly think that's too many rules and regulations to cover a road that doesn't really need to be covered yet. But I tend to go about things backward. I look for people to interact with and only then do I wonder if we should have limited the encounters in any way... which is also a flawed way of going about things if I think about it (lucky for me, I never do).
Anyhow, I think I'll make a point.
We should get together sometime and not discuss rules, regulations, politics, religion, and um... anything else a pirate wouldn't care about.
Say... Next Saturday 'round about 8PM EST (aka Black Market)?
Black market eh? I should think there will be some evil under currents to the deals there.
What's a little parrot poo among friends?
Well, thanks to Aedon posting this everyone has posted their RoEs.
(NME also did but these days I dont see them anywhere, it must be Summer...)
Now, no one has an excuse for ignorance about the three different, yet very similar, ROEs...
We, RBG, will use the RoE provided to us by UP, long ago...
The RP RBG Constitution is still a draft but getting there... if you google the orcs and TcD you will learn that it binds over 3000 players. Making it a tested, strong and practical Constitution...
Anyhow our goal #5 is now complete.
The community RoEs are in out in the open and most of them are a copy, or really very similar, to the RoE used by the Blackrose Society and the Hand, long ago... so these RoEs are obvious to any of us, old warfaring rpers.
- who wants to run an Evil RP Guild?
- can/should we have an active Undead Guild again? (I'll add an undead to the ranks)
- should we have followers of Ix Tab and Relvinian?
- would you like to play on the evil side?
WARNING: Incoming Wall of Text!
I personally feel that document is way too wordy, and has a lot of redundancy. Instead of arguing about how it's not liked...it IS mentioned that it's a draft, and as such, lets be constructive and list off some changes.
I also feel that most of the procedures in this are irrelevant to the general public - as in, what would help more in terms of an ROE, is that we put something simple in point form, instead of having people read through this huge wall of text.
However, I don't see the problem with someone else posting it, even if it was done to incite discussion about something they disagree with. It was on a public forum.
While this document is only binding to [RBG] (the tag!) as their chosen rules of engagement, as a guild representing Queen Dawn, I want it to folow rules that lend themselves to encouraging interaction and RP.
No guild, even the RBG, can or should force it's will on another. Not even if they're both RBG regiments. The wording of the "RBG community" should be changed to reflect that it applies to the [RBG] guild tag. (I suggested this wording before, it's obvious now that I chose unwisely.)
I'll go through each section and list off some changes that might be good (There are a LOT of them now I have time to read it fully):
Section II: Kinda wordy way of saying how to ask for amendments to the whole thing. This is something that could just sit in a private forum for members to read.
Section III: These are forum rules. theyre all pretty much standard for any forum, UOForums or Stratics. Redundant.
Section I: Point form this thing, its an awkward block of text and easy to miss something. Regardless, this whole section can be replaced with the UP ROE, since we use it. And said ROE actually conflicts with some of the stuff in the document, and as such, takes precedence.
Section II: The above ROE explicitly states looting is not allowed. This part needs to go.
Section III: Also covered above.
Section IV: I honestly cant see this ever working, though I understand the reason for it, since not everyone uses this rule. I guess leave it in, but dont expect non-RBG to respect it, or know about it.
Section V: I don't believe this fits in the Trammel world. Non-RPers are not enemies, rather we should work them into the encounter, encourage them to RP.
Section I: That is a lot of guild rules. We use three, along with the above ROE.
- Respect others.
- Don't attack without consent.
- No foul language.
Section II: Kinda convoluted. Repeated rule-breaking means a kick. Killing and looting a guild member OOC without asking means an instant kick.
Section III: Same as above.
Section I: There is no inner-council forum, and war status can be found on uo.com.
Section II: Totally disagree with this section. Only regiments forming within [RBG] have to post. Other guilds can declare themselves a regiment and do it IC by sending a note to Captain Kanlocke (The EM). After all, they are the real leader of RBG.
Sorry for the text wall, thanks for reading, if you got this far!
I have a few points to make about your proposed rules that I believe needs to be spoken that noone here has voiced, and that is about your death rules. While the deathrobe is a must, some characters wear heavy armor, trick armor, locked armor, or other bizarre contraptions IC. Kodoz for instance has heavy locks on his gorget and helmet to prevent them from being removed easily, and being knocked unconscious in a fight does not make him somehow magically disrobe. This is one specific example, but I am sure that others have theirs as well.
The other point of contention that I have that is important is that your idea to only say 'OOoOOoOoo' is a bad one, and it actually heavily inhibits roleplay. It is far more preferable to play yourself as injured, whether seriously, moderately, or lightly, as many of those in the community enjoy roleplaying healers, and saying that you cannot speak nor roleplay while in 'downtime' sets a bad precedent. These 'extra' roleplays after battles also often help to assuage people who get upset if they were the first to fall on the battlefield or the like, because it doesn't mean they are completely taken out of the scenario. Provided that the rule of Respect is held to, I've never seen any problems with people roleplaying wounded.
Theyre for [RBG]. Other guilds and their RP are not affected. So [RBG] will wear deathrobes and not re-equip. PGoH would act as their own ROE states (it's posted by Thom in the RoE thread I think.)
I think a better term is that you can't talk during the rest of the fight, if it's still going on. Mostly to avoid rezkilling.
Getting rezzed is getting rezzed, and I think you should be able to talk past that point, as long as you aren't rejoining a fight after dying.
Yes, I am aware they are the proposed for [RBG]. I am saying it is a bad rule because it inhibits the players within [RBG] from roleplaying wounded, and having more opportunities to interact with RP'ers around them.
This was under discussion in RBG IC, at Ultima Online Forums...
it was dragged here...
"this is a bad rule", "that needs to go"... people, go fix your own guilds...
for those that missed the message the first time...
"Mind your own business"
Pitr, It's called constructive criticism. Please learn to take it as it is, instead of as some sort of crazed attack on you or your guild. It should always be the goal of the rules of a roleplaying guild to promote, enhance, and create roleplaying opportunities whereever it is possible. Playing wounded is one of those things where there is no harm done provided it is done sensibly, and gives an extremely large opportunity for compelling and interesting roleplaying.
It's called 'trying to help' not 'telling you what to do'. Please learn the difference. And if you have any constructive criticism as to things that PGoH does that should be changed, I will be extremely glad to hear your arguments and reasonings. If all you can do is say 'fix it' then you either do not care to help, do not actually see any problems, or are merely attacking for the sake of attacking.
"Your honor, I sez your honor. This y'har feathered varmint done poo'd on mah best suit."
It was moved here because what you propose effects the community at large, not just your little sandbox. You are very free with the words 'Mind your own business." These are the same words you used towards Kasaven when he was addressing matters of the Royal Guard which IS his business.
Nothing which is done that can have a direct action on the RP community at large should be seen as for your eyes only. There are some of us who have units of a Royal Guard that will have no part of the rules posted. RBGY will work only under the standard ROE used by the RP community for years. We will take direction in events from Queen Dawn, Captain Kanlocke, and our own Guard Captain. But we will also always keep in mind the rights and good of the rest of the community we are involved with.
Agreed. I have seen some fine RP out of those who have fallen in battle. They do not re-enter the fight, but the also are not suddenly seen as nonexistent on to the plot. They are wounded, not invisible.
Linking a RP RBG Constitution that was being changed by all of us... both Corvak and Pandora pointed some fixes.
It was posted as something to discuss by the rp community before all of the RBG members had a chance to read, discuss, improve and implement... truly disrespectful.
Interesting that someone proclaiming to be all about the "community" is telling the "community" to mind their own business.
Its on a public forum, Pitr and I passed the link to Aedon via ICQ because he's the Captain of the Yew regiment. He decided to post it here. Secondly, I immediately fixated on the "LOOTING" part and I told you, it needs to be absolutely "NO LOOTING" at all, to which you answered "I'll change it to expendables." That's not fixing it.
But my gripe with it all is why weren't we allowed to formulate it together as a community? There is a difference in saying, "Let's get together and work on it together!" vs. "I wrote this, please review it."
And as previously stated in detailed quotes... there are things in there that reference ALL GUILDS not just the "single guild". Pitr ASKED US to review it under the premise its for the "RBG RP community". I don't know how much clearer that could be.
Not at all disrespectful. It was more facilitating full disclosure and communication.
*nods to Flutter*
All that has been said on this has been said. We all know our common ROE, it is time to get back to the business of RP. See you folks in game.
Remember to support your local pirates.\
Aedon Durreah-Society's Pillow
I wouldn't have it any other way. However, there is a difference in talking, and tossing assumptions on a public forum. The latter is not a healthy way to live either. My ICQ has always been open and yet nobody has tried the talking route which you are suggesting. Seems most just go to the assumptions. It's okay though, it's typical UO player nature. Some feel they can't be heard if they arn't the first to put it on the boards.
Ohh and if you are implying that I am holding anything in, talking behind your back, that isn't me.
As far as the hally-whack combo thing, I think you have me confused with someone else.
PS- It's amazing what a PM or an ICQ message can accomplish.
Yet again, the mistress of word twisting is twisting words again.
Sorry, I had to play catch-up!
Feel free to return to the RP now.
I fail to see how that's twisting words. It's pretty clear to everyone.
Correct, you fail.
Zuckuss, I simply typed out what a few other people pointed out to me via other conversations. It's all quite amusing to us.
Ok, we're going in circles. I'm locking this before someone gets dizzy and barfs on the rug.