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Some thoughts about Trammel and PvP

Discussion in 'UHall' started by FrejaSP, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I have to admit, I never liked the split in Trammel and Felucca but I don't think it's to late to Merge it a little again without removing the choice to be safe in Trammel.
    Trammel need a kind of PvP system, where people can choose a level of risk.

    My idea is, that a few NPC guilds like the thieves guild can bring the fun back. I'm not sure about the names but something like this:
    Innocent Guild, Guardian Guild, Robber Clan and the thieves Guild, we already have.

    Some will choose not to join it and be 100 safe just like now. The ones who do not join one of the groups in the PvP system can't be attacked or attack them unless they already are in guild/wars with them.

    Innocent can only attack Robbers and only outside town. Thieves can steal stackable from Innocent outside town. Innocent can defend them self vs thieves flaget to them. Innocent can be attacked of Robbers outside town. If they die, only stackable can be looted of the robber who killed them. They should have 2 min after rez, where they can't be rez killed unless they re attack the robber, who killed them. In this 2 min, they can auto loot their non stackable items. After the 2 min, they can click body again to auto loot leftover stackable on their body. Innocent can't have murderer count from killing in Felucca, that will kick them from the Innocent guild.

    Guardians can attack Robbers, Thieves and other Guardians outside town, however killing other guardians will give them a murderer count if reported. They can attack Thieves flaget to them and Robbers inside town. They can't attack Innocent. If they die, only stackable can be looted of the robbers or guardians who killed them. They should have 2 min after rez, where they can't be rez killed unless they re attack the robber or guardian, who killed them. In this 2 min, they can auto loot their non stackable items. After the 2 min, they can click body again to auto loot leftover stackable on their body.
    Guardians can max have 4 murderer counts from killing in Felucca or killing other guardians. They are kicked from the Guardian guild if they get 5+ murderer counts.

    Thieves can steal stackable from Innocent outside town and from Guardians and Robbers inside town however Guardians can call guards on them inside town. Robbers can't do that but they can attack a thief flaget to them. Looting rules will be the same as for Guardians and Innocent except, that they can't steal again before after the 2 min if they was flaget to the killer. Else the rules for thieves guild are as now. Thieves are kicked from the Thieves guild if they get 5+ murderer counts.

    Robbers are red, they can attack Innocent, thieves and guardians outside town and Robbers everywhere. Robbers will get a murderer count if reported for killing innocent or guardians. Reds can join the Robber Guild and this way access Trammel.
    They are attackable everywhere and the looting rules do not count for them. Everything not insured can be looted if they die, however players not in any of this 4 NPC guilds can't attack or loot them in Trammel.

    I really would love to changes like this as I believe it would bring back alot players who don't mind PvP but hate loosing their suit or other valuable items.

    Keep in mind, I do not say remove Trammel, only thing I do, is to give a way, other than guild wars to join a PvP system. Your non PvP char will be safe as long he/she do not choose to join one of the NPC PvP Guilds. Sure there would be PvP'ers around you and they may have fun fighting each others but I can't see how that hurt you more than a guild war going on around you.

    With a system like this, the game may be fun again and players can start off safe and only look at the fights, then some will get taste for it and join the innocent group. Some will stay there forever, some will leave again, but some will wish for more and move up to guardian or robber group or maybe join the thieves guild.

    Trammel was made to protect the ones, who did not want any kind of PvP and the ones, who wanted to choose when to PvP. But even when you can PvP in guild wars in Trammel it do not allow players to make a personal choice when it comes to PvP. A system as this, should allow every player, guilded or not to choose his level of PvP.

    A lot players do not want to go to Felucca to PvP and they do not like to risk to be attacked in town in guildwars. This system would bring some of the early UO back without removing the right to choose to be safe and not be a target for PvP.

    As I said, it's just some thoughts, so stay polite in this thread, even when you may disagree with my ideas, thanks.

    And yes I know, it may not be as easy as it sound, special the looting think can give Devs some challenge.
     
  2. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    I think what you proposed is too complex. There wouldn't be enough people in each guild type to balance them well.

    I'd suggest something simpler. Let Blues travel both Trammel and Felucca without fear of being attacked, except in Felucca dungeons where anyone can be attacked by anyone. Reds would be free to travel both Trammel ad Felucca, but are subject to attack anywhere. Reds can retaliate once attacked, but cannot initiate the attack outside of Felucca dungeons. This would bring people back to the Felucca overland areas.

    Give a reward to Felucca dungeons, such as a rare chance at skill scrolls. Champs spawns in Felucca would continue as they are now, open to PvP and have scroll drops. There is a risk of being attacked in Felucca dungeons, but a chance for a rare skill scroll drop outside of champ spawns.

    I used to think that Trammel was great for blues, to give us a place for casual PvM. The problem was it just divided the populations and too much of it migrated to Trammel.
     
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  3. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Even though your saying that you could still be 100% safe, most people here will still say no...there should be an Open PVP flag that you have an option to turn on..and once it's on you have to wait 24 hours to turn it off..once it's on you can stolen from, attacked at any time with no safety..no guards no anything..and if your open pvp flagged you cannot be healed by any non pvp flagged character..to prevent abuse..if you are non pvp flagged you may not attack anybody period unless they are in your guild/alliance..stop all the blue gate hiding.. Oh and another thing..once you enter a champ spawn and have been there for a say 10+ minutes attacking straight you can't just run out into guard zones..ie: Bog,Lich...but then again nothing will happen, nothing will change. But odds are we will get a new fluffy horse of some sorts..


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  4. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I believe that would only work for the hardcore PvP'ers. The Robber Guild would work for them. What I try to make is some lesser levels of PvP for the ones new to PvP.
    You right, there need to be a time you have to wait to leave the guilds and 24 hours may be fine. And yes the healing rules we have from guildwars need to work here too. As I said, it may not be as easy to code as it sounds.
     
  5. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Interesting idea. I would make it 24 hours to join, and a full 168 hours to leave. The first discourages someone from joining at the drop of a hat to help his friends' gank squad, or to go after an easy opportunity. The latter means that someone can't join just to get a couple of kills, then have the character untouchable after a day.
     
  6. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I believe 24 hours to join is to much and 168 hours to leave is sure to much. The murderer counts will balance it so the guardians do not abuse it killing other guardians unless they have a good reason to do it. The Robbers will lose their access to Trammel if they have 5+ counts. The innocent can't really do much trouble other than attack the robbers. 24 hours should be enough for the robbers to get revenge.
    I do not see a problem in someone to join to help with a fight, they do still get counts for killing blue in the system.
     
  7. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    What's the point if I attack someone in Tram that's blue that's flagged Open PVP I still get a count..I don't think that would work, or be productive use of coding..unless I'm mistaken. Might as well bring back chaos/order and give incentives to join other than some semi decent armor you can go without


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  8. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    My proposal of very long times is, as I said, to prevent a person from suddenly joining up to help a gank, and then to prevent the person from waiting only one day before playing the character without retribution. I always liked the faction timer of one week: if you want to fight, the character joins for a week. What I didn't like about factions is that someone could hide outside Felucca.

    Murder counts can help, but I'm thinking just as much about blues ganking reds, then the next night returning to unattackable. Champ spawns, on any shard, show that a red isn't necessarily mean an indiscriminate killer of innocents, just that someone initiates attacks. I've taken plenty of counts (and never complained because I knew the price) to help red or gray friends.
     
  9. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    You see, not all want same level of PvP as you. If you could kill all who join the system without any justice, not many would join it. This way, the counts mainly make you red as in old days and make you a free target. The ones who do not want as much PvP as you will be more protected. I mainly move the good old red vs blue system to Trammel but with the diff, that you have to join it and your risk is less as you only can lose stackable unless you are red.

    It's not meant to work like faction or order/chaos, it more meant as a kind of RP PvP system, that will help build the community.

    Here they (the blue) can only hide in town and houses. The blue gankers (guardians) main target will be the reds (robbers) and I'm sure they can handle it, that's the price for being red and being able to attack the innocent guild

    The system do, that the reds are not limit to Felucca. Yes the blue gankers can leave the system, but that won't make them safe in Felucca at Champ spawns, it will just remove their options to PvP in Trammel and I don't think they really want that as they still can gank reds there without taking counts. There will always be Noto PK's. You could make it so if they choose to leave the Guardians guild, they will have to wait a week to rejoin. Or you could flag them to all reds for 20 min if they attack or loot reds.

    I believe most of the hardcore PvP'ers will end up in the robber guild. they can't really quit that guild. It will also make the reds band together vs the noto PK's, we will see between the Guardians and the Innocents. There will be some who will take the counts and go reds to help reds vs the Noto PK's.

    There are other ways to control the noto PK's, one could be to make them risk more items if they are the attacker than if they are attacked. The old Evil vs Hero system, we had long ago on Siege may have some useful code, but it did also have some imbalances.
     
  10. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Really this topic again? :bdh:
     
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  11. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Good idea Freja but Trammel players are not into PvP. At least most of them.

    Devs already have an answer for this with Guild Wars. This falls upon the community on each shard and willing participation it could happen. Be great for even RP purposes or the Governor system who wanted to raid another city ( With the Governor agreeing from the other city participating).
     
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  12. Gedgerez Tesherd

    Gedgerez Tesherd Journeyman

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    Great step in the right direction FrejaSP, but at this point in the game, this would be too complex to ask of our devs. They are pushing the Virtue & Vice release this year, so that will be their solution to stimulating active pvp in the game. I do however agree that every facet should be susceptible to non guild friendly fire combat as on Siege, but the people that 'need' protection would quickly feel vulnerable/inferior. I have wished for non guild friendly fire combat for all facets with the release of Trammel, and all other post release facets. It's safe to say it will never happen. Most modern mmo games do not split the community, such as on UO shards with a single combat zone (Felucca). Guards already exist, yet have little functionality in all but Felucca. When's the last time someone released a pet on you in Trammel? All they need to do is post sufficient, permanent npc guard positioning around Luna (all of Luna, stretch guard zone over housing inside the city walls) , & Britain. Guards can wack criminal activity instantly, there is no need to feel unsafe inside a city, unless you plan on bank sitting, which if that is the case, then it should come with it's own element of risk. I do not want to lose items so I bless them, insure them, bank them, stash them in my house, it is that simple. If that doesn't allure interest, then turn Luna City, Britain City, Tokuno City, Ter Mur City into the only neutral zone, one for each facet (not every zone in Tram, Ilshe, Malas, Tok, Ter facet should block non guild friendly fire combat, :wall:).
     
  13. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    The problem with guild wars are, not all in a guild want to PvP and a lot do not want to be attacked in town. Only problem with the good old Red vs Blue system was, all was forced to be a part of it. with my system, a player can choose to stay out of it or he can accept to be attacked of reds outside town. He can still be in a guild, the whole guild do not have to join or join same NPC PvP guild.

    You say, Trammel players are not into PvP, I'm not so sure about that but they are not into it all the time and on all their chars.

    I know very little about the Virtue & Vice, not sure it is what Trammel players want as it seem to be some large battles. A lot do enjoy small fights builded on some RP. Lets say Miner Joe join the Innocent Guild and get killed of a local Robber and lose his ingots and jewelry. He will then ask the Guardians in his guild or player town to try to find the Robber and kill him. That may start a small war between some local Robbers and the Guardians from the guild / player town. I promise most will have fun and a few will join the Guardians guild to help run the Robbers off.

    Never say never, there may be a lot ex UO players, who would join UO again if my system was present.

    When Trammel was made, they made 2 mistakes, it should had been PvP and non PvP shards and then instead of adding some roaming NPC PK, who would keep the players busy, they removed most overland spawn. They even removed the archers from the brigand spawn and later they removed all random spawn that would make life to hard for a multi crafter without fighting skills. Nothing is better to build community than having something to group up and fight for, that be a small PK band, attacking a player town, a gathering place or a dungeon or a NPC attack that need to be cleaned before people can move on with what they was doing.

    When I ask for this, it's because I hear people come back and speak about the old days. I do believe it is possible to bring some of it back, without forcing players to be a part of it. People can still hunt together, even when some join and other don't. The PK's can't be everywhere and I'm sure there will be guardians around, who want to keep them busy as a lot do not want to be red and attackable all the time. I don't see what should stop my system being there side by the Virtue & Vice system just like we both do have faction and Red vs Blue on all facets on Siege. Only diff is, to PvP in the good old red vs blue system in Trammel, you will need to join one of the NPC guilds to overrule the trammel code. The ones who do not join, will still be protected of the trammel code.
     
  14. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    The horse is not dead and I see you have a lot of energy, you could use for PvP instead of beating that poor horse :)
     
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Your signature, featuring a wolf chasing a lamb, is a good representation of the kind of game you actually would like to see. The text of basically every post I've ever read of yours conforms to the world view represented in your signature.

    However, experience has shown us that most players would rather not play in such an environment. What you have done is design an elaborate system, which to me appears to be difficult to code in and manage, in order to disguise your ideal system as something else. This system will please you and your friends and those of similar ilk, but experience shows that it will please few others.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Now I know, you and I will never agree :) I never did hide, that I loved UO before Trammel. I do not believe it was done the right way. I do however know and respect, not all enjoy the game the way I love it but we all love UO.
    I do believe we can play together with respect for others play style even when I do know, some will try to abuse it and ruin someone's fun. That's the hardest part with the coding to limit the grief.

    I do not hear complains about guild wars going on in Trammel so this won't be much different. I changes a non consent PvP system to a consent PvP system. It was the fact, that it was non content in old days, that gave problems. If you wanted to play UO, you was forced to accept the risk for dying to an other player.

    With this system, you can play just as you use too, you will be safe everywhere except Felucca. Yes you may see some fights going on, yes you may have a guild member or two who choose to make them self consent to PvP and they may be attacked when you are doing stuff together. I do not see a problem in this.

    I did not add carrots to the system to lure players to join it. I did think about a few, like more loot/fame when in the system or faster decay of murderer counts but I left them out.

    The part I expected to get most complains about was letting reds join it and this way, allow them to play on all facets without changing to a blue char.

    This system will make more players show their true color and use same chars on all facets. As it is now, you don't know if you are trading or hanging out with a blue, who also have a red in Felucca. Color is not all that matter in this game.

    I'm not in any ways disguising my ideas, I'm not trying to make someone a victim to PvP unless they made the choice them self. No matter if you believe it or not, there are a lot players who enjoy the risk, but never will be aggressive in PvP. They may not even fight back but just try to make it to their house or town.

    I choose to keep the murderer count as a part of it to be sure, the ones who want to PK will be red and the blue in the system will know what to expect from them. I also made the Innocent group, to make sure people could choose to trust the blue around them. The Guardians can't attack the Innocent, they are meant to protect them vs the Robbers. Only the Robbers can attack the Innocent but as many of them enjoy a good fight, they will rather go after Guardians.

    I know it's not perfect but it will merge the 2 worlds again without remove Trammel from the ones who want to keep it.

    I don't think it is that hard to code as we have most of the code already

    It may remove a lot of the hate we see in the game. On Siege we do not have the red vs blue hate but we do have a very strong community and a lot of respect between the players. We do have a few players we respect less but that do not have to do with their color but with their action and honor.
     
  17. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    The actual fix to what you are saying " The problem with guild wars are, not all in a guild want to PvP and a lot do not want to be attacked in town." is that any players interested in Guild wars for the sole purpose of Trammel PvP, is create a separate guild for players who want to participate in it. This saves headaches for your mates who do not want to PvP at all. So for the players who do participate in it should know you can be attacked anywhere at anytime by the warring guild.

    The problem with UO PvP (until they introduce Virtue vs Vice and what it all entails) it really has no purpose. Just scout spawns and wait for the sheep, Yew gate fighting, and a broken faction system that gave players an advantage to more powerful artifacts.

    Armor and artifacts should not be a better than what you can obtain in crafting and/or as loot in PvE just to be incentive to PvP.

    A Purpose to PvP.

    It should benefit all players which would encourage more participation in PvP even from the players who do not wish to PvP all the time.


    I am all about PvP. It's all I do in GW2 mostly. I play at least 80% of my time in WvW and sPvP. This benefits my server if we are winning and we get buffs for the PvE only side of our player base. UO PvP has flaws but the biggest is the immature trash talk. Most games have figured that out. Thanks to DaoC introducing a system that you can't talk to the enemy in the game. This again is a sever vs server game and UO code is not based on that.

    When it's a shard PvP as UO is, and you can only fight with the players on that shard only, add trash talk to it, with the luring of the sheep tactics that have been introduced in the past, ect ect all it does is cause mistrust, anger, and breaks down a community of that shard. People do have feelings and to be attacked while trying to obtain a scroll, surrounded by a mob, being raided by players who have superior armor from a broken system, the element of surprise on their side also, kill you in the game, take your spawn and scrolls,then trash talk "you suck" or "your mom-ma" because the odds was against you doesn't encourage players to PvP. It also doesn't encourage a healthy relationship between the PvE and PvP community on that shard.

    The sad thing is if anybody considers the above scenario PvP at a spawn is PvP, I feel for you. I have been on both sides of that scenario and it just isn't the form of PvP high I was looking for. It's just a lure no matter how you sugar coat it.

    I would wait and see what the Vice vs Virtue system is all about before asking for something in Trammel.
     
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  18. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I know trash talk can be a problem but I really dislike it in the games, where you can't speak with your enemy. If you can't speak with your enemy, it really hard to RP with them. My ideas here won't changes anything when it comes to the Felucca spawns as Fel will stay as it is.
    You can ignore players in the global chat. At the field, I would just close my ears or kill them and on Siege that kind seem to end up dry looted every time they die.
    I do hear trash talk on normal shards, that have nothing to do with PvP. I'm sure you can find trash talkers both in the PvP and the PvE community.
    With my idea, you would see PvE and PvP community get merged and guilds would have both PvP'er and non PvP'er. It's about time we get rid of that split. We do have a lot on Siege, who never ever try to PvP. They get fine along with the PvP'ers, even when the PvP'ers may be a little noisy sometimes :)
     
  19. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    The thing is what you in a somewhat way of asking for is already exist.

    Siege and Mugden (sp)

    You are kind of asking it to be like that on all shards. UO is more PvE based than PvP.

    As I said it's a nice idea but it will not float in today's UO imo.

    Sometimes what happens in fel should stay in fel .

    It's way to early to be asking about another system when VvV is being added.

    :)
     
  20. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Not at all, think you did not read my first post well.

    Nope, what I'm asking for is a consent version of what we have on Siege. I'm not removing the trammel rules, I'm only adding a system, where you can join PvP with others who also are consent to PvP. The one who do not join the NPC PvP guilds will not be effected, they will still be safe and can't be attacked.

    I believe it will float well and it won't changes Felucca, it will just add a lesser version in Trammel, where you can try out PvP without losing a lot or pay a lot insurance money to PvP. But to be a part of it, you have to join one of the NPC PvP guilds and you can only PvP with others in this guilds.

    We don't yet know what Virtue vs Vice is about but maybe it will go fine with this. Maybe Virtue vs Vice is only meant for Felucca and the hardcore PvP'er. As long I know nothing about what it will be, I can only guess and add what I believe will work.
    It sounds like a Virtue and an anti Virtue system. I look forward to hear more about it, but yet, I do not have much faith to Devs when it comes to PvP, I had seen so many mistakes made over the years. I had a lot fun on Atlantic back in 1997-98 and no, I was not a PK, not even aggressive in PvP but I learned to fight back or run :p
     
  21. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    It really bugs the hell out of me when posters claim I don't bloody read well.

    Sorry to disappoint but I do!

    UO already has 4 forms of PvP systems set up.

    1) Guild Wars ( Tram and Fel)

    2) Broken Faction system (Fel)

    3) Spawning (Fel)

    4) Anything goes anywhere in fel


    You are asking for another system to be placed in Tram but as I already stated Guild Wars can do the same thing.


    I know you disagree with me, and I you, which is fine.

    To be insultive in a discussion claiming one is not reading is an easy way out of a constructive discussion.

    Many know I am always for the PvP aspect of the game and I do not hide that fact. Just because I feel there is a suitable system in place atm until VvsV comes out and with it all entails in it should be looked at first before we go asking for more systems is all I am saying.
     
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  22. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    First sorry for saying you was not reading well. I take that back.

    You say "You are asking for another system to be placed in Tram but as I already stated Guild Wars can do the same thing."
    I do not agree in that.
    1. Guild wars force the whole guild to join the war or you need to split the guild in 2 guilds and that hurt the guild badly.
    2. In guild wars, you can be attacked in town, you can't that in my system
    3. Guild wars can work for small controlled wars, where you set rules for the RP but I don't feel it work to well

    The other PvP systems you speak about is only for Fel and most from Trammel don't want to go there.
    I was not saying, make this now, I just wanted to know, how the players would think about and special what the Trammel players do have to say as Fel don't need more PvP.
    The main reason I play Siege is, I want to play on all facets and I want PvP on all facets. I'm fine with non consent PvP but most UO players want consent PvP. They want to choose to PvP or not.
    I really don't think any of the PvP choices we have now works for most UO players. They need a way to test it out near their house and their favorite hunting spots.

    I understand you want to see what V vs V is about and I really hope it will work both for the hardcore PvP'er as well for the one new to PvP and the one who just want a little risk for PvP in their normal playstyle. To me it look like V vs V is a Fel only thing so I really believe we need my system in Trammel to bring the spirit of UO back.
    I don't like the way Fel works, I believe it would be better to move the Fel rules to a new server with all facets, a server you can transfer too and then give fel on normal servers Trammel rules with my NPC PvP Guilds added to all facets.
    I miss the community, that in old days was builded around player towns and with PvP as a part of it. I don't think it is impossible to bring it back in a way, so both the non PvP'ers, the lesser PvP'ers and the hardcore PvP'ers can enjoy the game.
     
    #22 FrejaSP, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  23. swroberts

    swroberts Journeyman
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    I don't know how to break it to you, but the reason 99% of the population fled Felucca, the minute they opened up Trammel, is because it was anything but "fun".
    Every time you left a guard zone...some a-hole killed you....while in town....50 naked a-holes tried to steal from you...the reason Fel is dead now is because PVP is not enjoyed by most of the playerbase. I, personally, have no interest in selecting a "Please let no one attack me option" in Tram....unless of course you are offering up the Champ Spawns for being Raid Free.....but alas....you are not. Boil this idea down and it is the same old "you want everything the way it is, plus you want Reds in Trammel" thread. There is no place in Tram for murderers....Felucca is your penance.
     
  24. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Griefers made UO go downhill pretty fast. Under the Noto system, it wasn't hard to get back to "blue" titles. Murder counts and perma-gray under Rep didn't make things much better. In 1998 a lot of us were already clamoring for some kind of PvP switch, because it simply wasn't "fun" to collect hides at the Jhelom farms, only to get killed by MaStEr KiLlAh and his five friends. With the dramatic increase in player population in 1999, it was better to make a mirror land mass where blues couldn't attack each other. Oh yes, it "split" the worlds. Reds could then "PvP" with each other to their heart's content, rather than attack miners.
     
  25. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    If you like Trammel as it is, it won't changes anything for you, you do not have to selecting a "Please let no one attack me option", you can't be attacked in Trammel or stolen from unless you select a "Please let me PvP with others who also want to PvP in Trammel" options.

    Yes I let red in Trammel but unless you want to play with them, they can hurt you. They did not do their crime in Trammel so why should they punished with no access to Trammel. They can only PvP with the ones who want to play with them.

    It won't changes anything for you other than you may see a few fights going on. If no one want it at all, the reds will only have them self to fight but I doubt that will be the case.

    No I did not offer raid free champ spawn, but if the PvP'ers are active on all the other facets, there will be less of them at the champ spawns.

    Lets say, they had added the PvP switch in 1998, I believe that had been a lot better. I remember a lot players at 1998 and I had a lot of fun surviving out there. I believe the split was a very bad solusion.
    I really believe dry looting was the worse problem together with losing your house key and rune. If we had got some kind of item insurance or limit to looting, that could have made the game playable.

    I respect some players do not want to get attacked of other players but they also have to respect, that some enjoy fighting other players and some do enjoy the risk for getting attacked when lumbering or mining. There need to be room for all both the ones who hate PvP and the ones who want it to be a part of their game.
     
  26. swroberts

    swroberts Journeyman
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    What are you talking about...mining and lumbering is a grind and a half....it has some therapeutic value...but its only a means to an end. The last thing I want in the world is the possibility of being killed and having everything taken. You need to come to grips with the fact that the major UO culture is the community....PVP, PVE, and Crafters are all sub-cultures, with PVP being the smallest of the three. That is completely proven by the land you play in....a whole land for PVP and thieves...and its dead. You cannot even lure the miners and lumberjacks over there for double the resources. The only way to increase your little culture is to increase the playerbase. And that will never happen with the clients we have....my children are living proof....1997 graphics will never drive subscriptions up...Broadsword needs to say tough **** people, we are working for the future....your clients are gone forever...use this new one. But that is entirely another topic, but would have a better chance of increasing the PVP community that dealing with a polarized playerbase. Anyway, there is no benefit to the average player anywhere in this proposal. You seem to think that everybody on the Tram side is a closet PVP'er who need to be saved by having the option. Trammel was an escape from the Murderers. Murderers will never be welcome in Trammel.
     
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  27. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Why would you be killed and having anything taken? There would be no reason for you to join the NPC PvP guilds just like I guess you would never be in a guild warring an other guild.
    This murderers and blue PvP'ers roaming Trammel would not be able to hurt you.
     
  28. callum_fitzhugh

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    Wow. Lots of words. PvP already seems well covered by Guild Wars and Felucca. Not sure there is much point in adding in a new level of PvP or that there is a need for it? =) I do get the idea though and it does have merits.
     
  29. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    When UO:R was launched Chaos/Order wars were still around. I recruited tons of Pvmers and new players who never ever pvped that knocked my door down to join because they thought it was exciting because of all the town fighting.
     
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  30. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes if they see some fights around, they may want to try it. There are a lot warnings and rumors about Felucca, some may be true but not all. Going to Felucca to try out PvP may end up bad and they do not want to try again.
    It will be much different, if they see someone PvP around them and see that not all PvP is a lot of trash talk and rez killing.

    I do know, there is a lot, who never will want to PvP but I'm sure, there will be a lot who will want try, they may even meet a red guy, who are willing to give them some training and advices.

    Getting attacked of a local red Robber, they somewhat know, is not as scary as getting attack in Felucca of a total stranger. With starting in the Innocent Guild, they will know, only reds can attack them.
     
  31. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    "Respect" goes in both directions, though. Logically, if a miner or lumberjacking was to respect what a PK likes to do, then the PK also needed to respect that a weak character does not want to fight. (Of course, it's different now, because if you're in Felucca, you know you can be attacked.) The problem was that most PKs did not give the same respect. There were lots of excuses. "We make the game more exciting." "The game isn't a challenge without us." "You can learn to fight back." But a miner does not want that kind of "exciting." A miner will not be able to fight against a dedicated mage or warrior.

    Some PKs wanted to kill the PKs who attacked only the weak. But how could they, when so many PKs would recall in, kill, and recall out? My miner was attacked once, so I recalled out, then went back a minute later (at the time there was no combat timeout) on a strong character. The PK was already gone, or hiding.

    The English saying is, "kill two birds with one stone." Is there a Danish equivalent? By 2000, the Dev team had taken so long to do anything about indiscriminate PKing, and we needed new lands anyway for housing.
     
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  32. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    It's amusing how you have people who sit here and say, oh yea trammel was the best addition and everyone fled fel to go to tram to stay safe..that may be true to some extent, but the reality is majority of the people that stayed in fel watched the population dwindle down and then moved to different games not to trammel..but keep thinking that this game stands a chance at survival once a game proves to have some longevity in pvp..hence why pre-aos pvp driven shards are flourishing more then the current UO..there's more active players on their one shard then on all 20 something OSI combined..but I bet it's due to their awesome guard zones and grind fest's..without pvpers buying your artifacts or buying farmed gold many people who play strictly tram for monetary gain will quit due to even more lack of interest...but without starting a tram vs fel thread for the umpteenth time..let's all just sit back and watch the game we play slowly die, and relax in our dragon claw tub's of awesomeness..


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  33. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes respect goes both ways and I meet that kind of miner PK's too, when I show up on my archer, they run like a little kid. I doubt they could kill anything other than a naked miner :)
    I also meet PK's who only attacked players in plate armor, as they know they had at least 60 str and was not all new. There sure was a lot PK's, but most was not jerks.
    Most of the PK's back in 1998 was not really dedicated mage or warriors, many of them was only around 80 in skills and if you know how to fight, heal and use potions, they was not really that powerful.

    Yes the Anti PK's had a hard job finding the PK's. It did help when we got IRC and could make chat rooms, where we could call for help. Some PK's did attack weak players to make the Anti PK's show up, so they could get a better fight.

    I believe some shards had bigger problems than Atlantic, where I played. I don't mind indiscriminate PK's if they have some class. The problem was the immature ones who only wanted to make you feel miserable. It's very hard to make rules to take care of the nasty one but not ruin it for the ones who try to RP and share some fun.
    Yes we have a saying like that, "slå to fluer med ét smæk" it's something like "Slay two flies with one clap"
     
  34. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    First, you can't compare a free service with something that requires a $10 a month subscription. How many would play these "pre-aos pvp driven shards" if they had to pay?

    Second, your claim is irrational when the fact is that, even in the "pre-aos pvp driven" days, a majority of UO players don't PvP and aren't interested. Tying this back to the first, the most fundamental complaint about PKs was that most players wanted to pay $10 a month to be blacksmiths and monster hunters, but for "mAsTaH nOoBsLaYeR" to kill their miner and gloat.

    Third, how many people on any given shard are PvPers, even just a little? It's a minority of the player base, except for Siege, whose popularity speaks for itself. Yet the game goes on, because the majority of players do just fine without all-out fighting.

    Garriot's original vision of UO was that players could police themselves, even not having a guard zone, and it was naïve thinking. You and other self-professed PKs wanted that kind of playstyle? That was all fine and legal, but blame only yourselves for not having easy victims today.
     
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  35. Lady_Rachel

    Lady_Rachel Lore Keeper
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    *sits in her claw tub*

    Ok I am not a PvP'er. Never have been. But I do travel to fel, mine, mark runes, and just explore. Rarely been attacked, and can usually hold my own, unless I go into a giggling fit during the fight.

    My thoughts on Reds in Trammel is the griefing that will/may become rampant. Out doing some PvE, minding your own business, along comes a group of reds and the griefing commences.

    So your options are, ignore the crowd and rants of ' Your mother wears army boots! ', tell them politely that you do not Pvp and they calmly go away...um..doubt it, or follow the ToS and remove yourself from the situation. Of course you have the option of fighting them, but chances are you will get your hat handed to you. What if they decide to camp outside your house? Your vendor shop? An EM event? The possibilities for griefing could be endless, and very discouraging.

    How many times do you think this will happen to someone who does not wish to PvP or put up with the griefing before they say forget it, this is not fun anymore, and go to a different game?
    What will happen then? Will they split it a third time? Or say no reds in Ilshenar, or Malas, and everyone will migrate there, or play there?

    I play for relaxation. I don't need the boys and girls, whose playstyle I respect but do not care to participate in, waving their body parts at me when I am out hunting leather, wandering about, killing Daemons, or just stocking my vendors, in Trammel. (Although I will admit I sometimes get a chuckle listening to them in General Chat trying to antagonize each other into fighting, they can be very creative. )

    You might get one or two folks to join in PvP by seeing Reds in Trammel, but I fear the majority would rather not.

    I just don't see opening up Trammel to Reds as a solution to the lack of PvP in fel. There has to be a better way.
     
  36. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Well, most anyone in 1998 was no more than 80 weapon skill anyway. The game was new enough, and expensive enough for what we could do, that a master mage was a powerful thing. The same thing happened when Siege was new. Also, a lot of PKs didn't bother getting very high skills because of stat loss. Once the Reputation system was introduced, ressing while red could easily mean going from 90 to 80. It never seemed consistent to me. I heard of one red who finally died, and he went from 90-something magery to neophyte.

    I never encountered any PKs, not one ever, who killed someone to "get a better a fight." Now, I started as a dungeon PK, but then I realized there was no honor or sport in it. I found it much more satisfying to kill the PKs who preyed on the weak, and there have been too many. They had no class, and Trammel meant that they disappeared to other games. UO became all the better for it.

    Now, not every PK was like that, but there were too many, and they never thought to restrain themselves. Too many had the mind of a child, creating newbies with 50 stealing and 50 snooping, then hanging around WBB to grab anything they could. Meanwhile they'd make throwaway reds to attack non-fighting players. There was no significant penalty. Being red was not enough of a penalty, and stat loss meant that most PKs would hunt only in packs (and attack the weakest victims). Recall in, attack, recall out if someone didn't die right away. In the end, the only effective solution was to create a separate land where players could have fun with non-PvP characters.
     
    #36 The Zog historian, Apr 16, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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  37. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    what percent of the uo official population actually pvp's? I'd say it has to be no more than 10%.

    the player base has spoken. they'd much rather hang out in tram and craft, RP, monster hunt, get married etc...

    At present there is nothing to entice a person who does not pvp into even trying it out. There has been no new Fel exclusive content in a dog's age. The scroll of commendation was a good opportunity to give fel something new and the dev's totally dropped the ball. The new ships with cannons gave the dev's an opportunity to put in a water based champ spawn on fel side which in my mind would have been epic, yet they gave you some B.S. go sail for 45 min, capture a pirate and sail back 45 min for a flaming cannon ball. Another opportunity wasted. Factions... hah. broken and a joke, that's awaiting a revamp that will most likely not even roll out this year. Thieves? no love other than some garbage dungeon stealables. I'd tell you your better off having RL stealing skill in that people are much more successful in getting other peoples account info and stealing /looting there accounts than anything you get in a spawn.

    I think Bonnie does a good job for UO however as to PVP and fel side content even Seige it looks as if it's no where on her radar.

    Long story short, new content and items obtainable only in Fel will give a shot to increase the PVP aspect of this game. Carrot and stick really.
     
  38. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I would not say, the majority of UO players don't PvP and aren't interested. We do have a lot players on Siege, who get fine along with the PvP'ers and the PK, even when they have no fighting skill or only fight monsters. Also the avg. age on Siege may be close to 40 years as we have a lot players at 50+, even several who are 70+ years.
    When I started playing, I was 44 years, I started on Atlantic. I did not know anything about PvP or PK's. I did start as a miner but after a while, I decided to get some fighting skills and I started lumbering instead and ended up as an archer. I learned fast, that being able to make my own gear made the PK's less a pain and I started to try to fight them back and many of them turned out to be cool guys, willing to help me with advices. To me they was a part of the game, even when there was a few nasty one I did not like.

    Back in 1998, most I know, at least tried to fight when attacked. As I most was out in the wilderness, I did not know as many of the ones standing inside town zone to scared to try to step outside. Fear is a hard thing to fight, it can make you freeze up, unable to play. Most time, it was not so scary outside town as they believed.

    Sadly this scum, who only think of their own fun, destroyed the game for the roleplaying PK and the PK's who tried to share some fun with their victims and let the ones who did not want to fight get away or RP them out of trouble.
    When I started to PK on Atlantic, I always tried to give them a choice. I had a macro, demanding their gold or gems or their life. Some did drop gold, some started to RP, some told me no, and tried to run, when I attacked and a few would try to fight back. Most times, I would let the runners make it to town, with my arrows in their back and red lined but alive. My victims respected my playstyle. They was in good mood, when they left me new rezzed and without their gold and gems.

    If there was a way to control the nasty PK's without ruin it for the ones who care about their victims, it would be great. The Anti PK's tried but it was hard to find the PK's as they moved fast to next spot. And sitting waiting for them to show up was boring.
     
  39. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Siege never had stat loss, Siege was born without star loss. Around half or the Siege players was red back in 1999, some from being in the Evil/Hero system on the evil side. That did not mean all was random PK, a lot on Siege was only fighting their enemies or they just wanted to to be free to attack who they wanted, as justice for bad actions. Stat loss was one of the worse thing they added to normal shards. It made a mega hate between red and blue. Before that, the reds did not hate blue but now they did as they blamed the blue for stat loss and for destroying their char. OSI made all PK's blue and they now tried out guild wars but they had hard finding enough enemies. I saw Anti PK's and ex PK's join same guilds and try to make guild wars work. It did not work and many of the PK's went red again together with a lot of the Anti PK's. To survive, they now had to be safe in numbers and could not afford to give their victims a fair fight as it would ruin their chars if they died.
    I saw so many players give up the game, both blue and red PvP'ers, it was a sad time

    What server did you play on? At least on Atlantic, the anti PK's was able to keep the first levels of the dungeons somewhat safe.

    The thief PK showed up after stat loss, they wanted players to attack them so they then could kill them. Devs fixed that but I miss when thieves was allowed to defense them self without getting a murderer count. As I said, stat loss did mega damage to the game.
     
  40. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Lets see what happens with Virtue vrs Vice. In the podcast they said its the only thing they will be working on producing this year in terms of content, so lets hope the work pays off.
     
  41. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    But how many people are on Siege compared to any other shard? People have voted with their feet. They don't want the kind of world where they can be attacked by another player.

    To every non-PvPer, an attacker was not someone the person wanted to talk to.

    Most non-PvPers I knew would build up enough magery so they wouldn't fail with a scroll. It was a dangerous run from WBB to the moongate. During evenings, and any weekend morning, it was a high probability of getting attacked as soon as you left the guard zone. My guild had a house in Yew, near the abbey, and that was a dangerous run.

    The problem is that there was no way to control them. There weren't enough penalties against the "griefer" playstyle, so in the end, people who didn't want to be victims, who never wanted to PvP, got their own safe land. It was a lot of fun to read PK's complaints at the time, here on Stratics, and also on Crossroads of Britannia. "The game will be less challenging!" Is that why they wanted the "challenge" of killing miners? "The game will be less fun!" Less fun because people wouldn't get PKd trying to fight a lich? "But we have a right to play how we want!" And the victims didn't have the right to play without being PKd?
     
  42. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    That may had been much higher if there was a system like the my idea. What do you consider PvP?
    1. The guy who never ever attack someone but like the risk for getting attacked and get a kick of making it to his house or town. (Do not work in Trammel)
    2. The one who spare with guild mates to learn to PvP
    3. The one who only attack grey and red. (Do not work in Trammel)
    4. The one who do guild wars, where the guilds set the rules and RP
    5. The one who would attack the guy calling him names. (Do not work in Trammel)
    6. The factions players. (Do not work in Trammel)
    7. The PK's. (Do not work in Trammel)
    8. The one who go to Felucca to do spawn or mining for double resources

    [/quote]the player base has spoken. they'd much rather hang out in tram and craft, RP, monster hunt, get married etc...[/quote]
    I was a PK when I was married in game, I did monster hunt on my red, I did RP on my red and I did hang out on my red.
    Trust me, some would join my system and I believe several of the peace loving trammel players would :)

    That's your opinion but you can't prove it

    You never know, I know Mesanna do have an evil side too and she had done a lot to help us on Siege. She show up in game and ask for our opinion before she changes something that could hurt the shard. I think it's first time since Runesable made the shard, that we don't feel as a step child.

    Yes the V&V system is Fel only and I doubt it will draw many Trammel players, I think it's mainly for the more hardcore PvP'ers but I may be wrong, I have a lot of faith in Mesanna and her team.
     
  43. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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  44. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, I know how things work on Siege. But on regular shards, stat loss had already been introduced in 1998, as part of the Reputation system. It was very necessary. Before that, the only penalty to dying red was having to get ressed at the Chaos shrine, which was no punishment at all for someone who would only PK weak characters. So first there was stat loss, then increasing murder counts to 40 hours long/8 hours short, plus the "ping-pong" counter (go red five times and stay red forever, because so many PKs would macro off counts), then finally Trammel. Yes, the penalty fell just as hard on "roleplaying PKs," but they weren't helping to restrain the griefer PKs. How else was the game supposed to survive, when griefer PKs destroyed people's fun of mining or hunting monsters?

    Blaming blues was the most illogical argument, you know. Nobody made a character red except for that player. If a player could not suffer the penalty of stat loss, then the player should not get murder counts in the first place.

    Sonoma has always been my home. I've tried others, including a couple before Siege, which I also tried. But I always came back to Sonoma. There were never a lot of true "anti PKs." Most of the antis had their own PK characters. They'd just show up on their blue characters if they saw a bunch of reds, and vice-versa. If antis showed up to drive away reds, if there were any weaker blues around, the antis would come back on their own reds to PK them.

    There was a bug for a long time: a thief could steal outside town, but stay blue. I found this one day, after Reputation was introduced, when thief stole something from me. That particular char wasn't very strong yet, but I killed him. Then his friend came out to kill me, and I wondered why I couldn't give a murder count. Then I realized, ARGH, somehow I was gray to everyone for attacking the thief.
     
  45. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Stat loss was never necessary and there was other penalties than having get ressed at the chaos shine. You could only use the bank in Buc Den or Yew from outside on the north side if you was careful not to get inside guard zone. You could not go to town if evil or dread lord and could not buy from npc's. I do believe the game survived fine and so did I. I know something was needed as all had right to enjoy the game.
     
  46. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    I think Stat loss was awesome in big team fights. it forced you to rethink your strategy and still be a useful team mate while you let it run the course. We had big fights on chessy before they neutered factions and it was some of the best fights I've had in game.

    I think its been proven about getting new participants in pvp. I fight on several shards now and you tend to see the same people over and over again.

    fact remains there's been ZERO new content that's exclusive to fel. imho this is a big reason why there's a staleness regarding new participation in what is probably the highest mental challenge in the game.

    Let me say that I do enjoy pvm as well however the AI of the mob cannot compare to that of another human (except for a few players in the PITS guild that have IQ's lower than ettins.) ... j/k
     
  47. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
    Professional Premium Stratics Veteran Supporter Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter PITMUCK

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    *HUGS DEM ALL* MEEES LUBS ALLA YOOS:heart: HANDS OUT ICE CREEM CONES
     
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  48. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    If stat loss wasn't necessary, then what was to be done? I don't think stat loss worked well, but the Devs at the time didn't want a PvP switch. The game needed some sort of punishment for reds, even if it was not much of a deterrent to being red in the first place. EverQuest flourished especially because it was PvP-consensual, and UO would have died soon if it stayed in its Felucca ruleset. The PvP-willing population was not enough to sustain game revenues. I would say that even at UO's peak, there were fewer willing PvPers (meaning they played to PvP, not just fighting back) than total UO players today.

    The lack of going into towns, or using regular banks, admittedly was not much of a deterrent, but it was part of the punishment that the Devs were willing to put in. The Buc's Den bank wasn't always around; that wasn't until later in 1999 or maybe 2000, I think. Players simply used their blue characters to hold and transfer things, and I understand UOE had a "bank anywhere" exploit. Banking at Yew was tricky, and I never dared to try it myself with my reds. Sonoma, for a short time in late 1998, had was a banker in the desert by the eastern crossroads. It was a player community with a GM-blessed arena for PvP tournaments. A GM may have put the banker there so players could save and retrieve items for the tournaments, but the banker wasn't made invulnerable and was killed within days. I did have a chance to use him, though, and I still had my bank box. There had been rumors that going red wiped all contents of that character's bank box.

    You see what you wrote: "all had right to enjoy the game." What about the person who wanted to mine or chop wood outside town? There were PKs who ranted on Stratics and Crossroads of Britannia, "You're imposing your playstyle on us!" But it's actually the PKs who were imposing their playstyle first. Whether it's 1% of PKs who preyed on the weak, or 99%, they were the ones who brought the final punishment on themselves: a total lack of unwilling victims. That's how the game survived. People didn't want to recall to their houses to find five reds ready to kill them for their key. They didn't want to hunt blood elementals to run into thieves or PKs.
     
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  49. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    I rarely go to fel, except to pvp or do spawn. i would love if i could "turn on" pvp in tram, to be attackable by blues. I can see tramel pvp being very successful if you could turn it off or on, and murder counts werent involved with any killings.
     
  50. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    the strong will always prey on the weak, although some will steer clear due to the lack of a challenge others will relish killing the player and giggle with more delight if he is way off the beaten path to get a fresh rez and be on his way.