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Something occurred to me regarding tamer griefing

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Revenant2, May 15, 2008.

  1. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    I was stuck on hold on the phone, and wandered over to Cove at the tail end of an NPC spawn to see what was up. I observed - wouldn't ya know it - someone being antisocial to a tamer who was in the process of taming one of the new horses. The one guy had a tame going, and this other guy walked right up and dropped a para right on the horse in the middle of the other guy's taming attempt (the original guy was not para taming), and began his own. The original guy had been the one to bola the horse and lead the vanguard off, he had been alone until that one screwball walked up.

    It occurred to me, perhaps attacking a creature that an active tame is being done to should result in karma loss or, both karma and fame loss.

    On the karma side, karma in-game seems tied to doing 'good' things and is lowered by doing bad. Killing kitty cats and doggies gets you negative karma; healing someone can raise it. Griefing some tamer by attacking an animal in an active tame attempt seems to fit into a karma-modifying behavior category. Glorious Lords wouldn't walk about engaging in this kind of behavior, would they? Glorious Brats more likely.

    There's different ways to do it, but I like the idea of having the penalty be higher the higher someone's karma/fame is. One thing that came to mind is recording the person's karma/fame at their first attack and holding that value for 2 hours, and the penalty being based on a percentage of that initial level. Each time the person interrupted someone's tame attempt, their karma/fame would drop by that pre-determined amount, so a Glorious Lord would drop down to No-Karma Nobody at about the same speed as someone at neutral karma/fame doing it. There's other ways in the math to achieve a similar effect. Being able to drop to impairingly-low levels of karma and fame as a result of the activity seems appropriate as opposed with having the loss slow down or stop at neutral.

    Some thought would need to be put into whether or not tamers could use this to grief non-tamers. But at it's core it seems to make sense.

    It's true that it doesn't 'punish' chars as hard who are using templates that naturally have low karma, but that's also where it fits in thematically. The double whammy of fame+karma loss may be helpful in this regard.
     
  2. Hunters Moon

    Hunters Moon Guest

    If it was only karma/fame loss then it would be no punishment to my character at all. My necro/mage is as low karmacly as it can go and I couldn't care less about fame. If I were worried about fame,I could just go farm OL's until I got the lord title back.


    Edit: haha how about the tamer would lose fame/karma and luck points off his suit if the player spammed "all kill" more than twice in a 5 minute duration at any spawn point.
     
  3. Its times like these that I am very grateful I do not have a tamer and couldn't care less about these new steeds.
     
  4. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Some people do care about it, though. The fame is at least useful to people who work Sacrifice, and anyone who wants to see the face of Twisted Weald had better have positive karma.

    I didn't have a better idea and can't say that this is a total solution, just that it makes sense.
     
  5. Or you'd end up being griefed by the persons necro that he built just for you.

    Maybe they could make it so that when you start taming the pet turns yellow and becomes invincible, I don't expect we're far off it anyway.
     
  6. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    It should result in his death and a dry loot. :)
     
  7. Hunters Moon

    Hunters Moon Guest

    :p A tamer saying "No don't kill it,it's my tame" Should result in the tamers pets to auto-unbond and die on the spot,and the tamers luck suit to lose all durability and disapear.What a wonderful day that would be :D
     
  8. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Another thought could be that someone attacking the animal does not cause a taming interruption. It would need to continue fighting as normal, but the tame itself would not stop and it would have the same chances of fail/succeed. The interruption to taming it causes right now is by design, of course, it's not a certain necessity.

    Although that could get complicated to make work right, especially in guard zone and in Fel where a monster/pet's explosion can go off a good while after it was cast. I'm not saying do this, just that it's another thing.

    (I suspect your post was intended as sarcasm, but mine was not.)
     
  9. Hunter Moon

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    Well the problem with making fighting or hitting not break the tame is that I would suppose it is intended for the actual tamer who is trying to tame so they won't just stand next to the animal and take the hits while trying. Yes I know the hits from a lot of monsters would kill you, but with friends healing, it would make taming a dragon or ww pretty easy if you could stand still and just get others to heal you while you tame. Having to stay far enough away, but not to far, while trying to tame, even with a healer, is tricky and adds depth to the process.

    Hunter Moon [HOT] Atlantic
     
  10. RedDaTeef

    RedDaTeef Guest

    Did you know these dreadhorses have loot on them. If they weren't meant to be killed, why is there loot on them.
    I have as much right to kill them as you do to tame them.
     
  11. Hunters Moon

    Hunters Moon Guest

    /signed
     
  12. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    You're forgetting one important point here: You can achieve your goal by interrupting the tamer, the tamer cannot keep you from your goal, only hasten it.

    Personally I feel attacking a creature somebody is trying to tame is highly anti-social behavior!
     
  13. "(I suspect your post was intended as sarcasm, but mine was not.)"

    Hehe, yes it was but fairly light heartedly. Good on you for not rising to it though. :)
     
  14. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    LOL I have tamers and couldn't care less about the new war horses. I think it's actually pretty clever that the developers have come up with something to keep the "prestige tamers" occupied and distracted for a while when it sounds like they can't put out a whole lot of new content because they're adding on new staff, getting the new stuff thru QA, etc. They've also managed to localize on every shard two semi-continuous mini-dramas that they can study and dissect for their own purposes. It's just too bad that Fel Cove is in a guard zone....
     
  15. Krystal

    Krystal Sage
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    this event and every event should NOT be held in a guard zone!! Specially on SP!

    DOWN WITH GUARD ZONES!
     
  16. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    Well one of my main characters is a legendary tamer and on Sonoma I had the same thing happen to me two or three times so far except the other person was not casting paralyze. Causing someone to lose Fame and Karma over this kind of grief tactic will make no difference to the one doing the griefing. Most of the people griefing like this appear in my opinion to be immature teenage kids trying to make themselves feel better by making someone else feel bad. The same type of person that PvPs. I have also on some occasions had these same griefers try to tame the horse out from under me by running a macro that re-tries to tame the animal over and over till it is tamed. Reason I know it is a macro is the speed at which they try to tame it. No matter what EA does with concern to this game there will always be ways for the immature and mean people to grief other players.
     
  17. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    Why do you assume that tamers wear nothing but a luck suit? So far I have seen quite a few posts talking about a tamers luck suit and wanting it to either dissapear completely or just lose luck points. On my tamer I have a total of 207 luck on it. Granted it has luck but it is by far no where near what people consider a luck suit.
     
  18. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Better yet,lets remove the taming skill. Its ******** anyways.

    Most of the PvM imbalances is due to tamers that have too easy of a time taking down monsters with pets while they munch cheetos.

    Yes everyone, I do have a tamer, and I think he's lame. I feel less of man when I play him. Its a wimpy character.

    'Here, let me hide behind my massive dragon while I invis and loot the old corpses'
     
  19. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    "lets remove the taming skill. Its ******** anyways."/yeah that's a real mature statement.

    Obviously, there's nothing anyones going to say to make even the oldest brat out there from acting like an in-game ass.

    If they would apply a no touch clause once a tame has started, it would ease alot of grief.....at least on one end.
     
  20. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Interesting.....
     
  21. But hey, he comes to the board and trolls to boost his machismo deficiency, so it's all good, I guess.
     
  22. "Why do you assume that tamers wear nothing but a luck suit? So far I have seen quite a few posts talking about a tamers luck suit and wanting it to either dissapear completely or just lose luck points. On my tamer I have a total of 207 luck on it. Granted it has luck but it is by far no where near what people consider a luck suit."

    Their usually the only ones capable of wearing a full luck suit. Since luck has been out I've only ever seen one person play in a full suit of it that wasn't a tamer.
     
  23. Hunters Moon

    Hunters Moon Guest

    Every time I come across a tamer I always open up the paperdoll to see what they are wearing. Eight out of ten times I see a mid to high level luck suit worn. It's not an assumption,its what I see in game.
     
  24. Krystal

    Krystal Sage
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    i agree remove taming!
    or u cant "all kill" someone unless the tamer is attacked first

    another thing if people want to bola they should need to have 90 tactics!!! :mad:
     
  25. I usually play a mage, tamer and sometimes my archer. I have a swords and fencer character, but usually don't play them. Just my preference and play style. No better or worse than anyone else.

    For those of you who kill the dread horse for fun, let's look at this from another perspective. If as part of this event, let's say there was a quest where a dexer, mage or whatever had to honor and solo some creature to receive something you personally wanted (be it a weapon, deco, or whatever you like). Something that would enhance your personal experience and enjoyment in uo. Perhaps this item might be available for a limited time. If I decided to repeatedly kill it just for fun, how would it make you feel? What kind of names would you call me?

    I've seen a couple individuals who have been trying for days to get a dread horse. Honestly, I feel bad for them. Perhaps it's some returning veteran trying to get a new foothold in the game. Perhaps the person is busy and was able to get just a couple hours in to enjoy the event. Perhaps the person is seriously ill and just managed to find the strength to play for an hour. The anonymity of the Internet sometimes makes it easy for forget there are real people behind these virtual characters.

    We are a community of players who get together to do something we all enjoy - playing uo. Personally, I would never intentionally do something that would diminish anothers experience.

    Seriously, I don't know why I bothered. Some people just don't care. If I don't play like they do, my opinion and play style doesn't matter. I hope you enjoy that extra thousand gold to add to your millions. Wait, you probably left it on the corpse.
     
  26. "If I decided to repeatedly kill it just for fun, how would it make you feel? What kind of names would you call me?"
    I wouldn't, I accept that the majority of players are like that (maybe I'm jaded, maybe it's from playing so long). I would also be capable of getting it when your not on, you got to sleep sometime griefer! hehe.
     
  27. Joyous2K

    Joyous2K Guest

    No to forcefield for animals that are not tamed.

    Yes to discord being treated as 'damage' and aggro.

    (Just all kill the guy and lol)

    Edit: This is wrong thread? How did that happen?
     
  28. LG - I'm also a little jadded. I too would just walk away (albeit a little frustrated) and try again. However, I met someone who was trying to get one for a friend who couldn't play because his\her son was seriously ill. Ever since then, it has been a sore spot with me.
     
  29. *nods*

    Can usually buy the stuff as a last resort, though I personally try to never buy anything thats still spawning.
     
  30. eve

    eve Journeyman
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    Yes:thumbup1:
     
  31. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Hunting overrules Taming, much as Taming overrules Herding; you can't herd a creature someone's taming but you can tame something someone else is herding. Basically when we choose a playstyle, we choose our place in the foodchain. Despite appearances, tamers aren't at the top.

    If creatures turned yellow/invincible/untameable while they were being herded, would you consider that griefing tamers too?
     
  32. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    For the warhorses, it would be useful if EA would confirm whether they'll spawn somewhere after the event or not. That might stop some of the current taming drama in Cove... That and spawning them over multiple cities and facets so there are more areas to find them.

    If folks are killing the mares I tend to leave them to it. I've gone to fel and waited for the spawn when folks weren't around. Had no trouble getting a mare separated that way, though they're feisty gits to tame when you get 'em lol.

    I've had my share of folks jumping tames etc, but any protection can sometimes play into the hands of antisocial folks too. It's just part of being in a game community, some folks are brats and when those brats then want a res or some help, you can grin as you ignore their OooOOs. Often I find that seeing the rediculousness of someone and laughing at them means I relish such encounters, rather than dreading them. Antisocial players don't deserve anyone's anger or frustration, they're just not worth it.

    Wenchy
     
  33. SDragor

    SDragor Guest

    I will repost an updated earlier posting of mine:

    I think, calling people "griefers" is pretty one-sided. Did you ever consider that people come to these events and just like to fight any creature that is "red" or that is agressive? I've done so myself, killed Nightmares for hides, and during the first hours I did not even notice the difference between Nightmares and those Dread Horses. I was insulted and offended by tamers, and I didn't even know why.

    To my opinion, some people really have lost their mind, getting so upset about a pixel horse. There is no "mine" and "yours" during such a war situation. Everybody fights for loot or for survival here, and people declaring monsters or creatures their "property" really have lost all sense of realism. I cannot even believe these discussions are happening. And I hope the developers don't give anything about complaints like these.

    And EVEN IF someone is deliberately killing creatures during the taming process: The creature isn't "yours"! It is yours, as soon as its health bar appears blue to you. Before that, every other player can do to it what he wants. This may be annoying in certain situations, but it is the game mechanics. We warriors do not whine around either, when someone jumps in and starts setting his pet on a monster we're just trying to kill. I do not think this is a nice behavior, but there are things in UO that are not nice at all, that make our life in UO difficult, and we should consider that a challenge, and not griefing. Instead of complaining, you should find a different way to be successful; team up with other tamers, help each other, go taming in Felucca and kill anyone who annoys you, etc. But no! You prefer to whine, and even demand from the developers to program a patch that solves YOUR PERSONAL issue! Unbelievable!

    Whiners like you are the reason why the world was once divided into Trammel and Felucca, and the original character of UO was damaged irreparably. Not everything will be handed to you on a silver platter in UO. Because once it does, the game will be boring. Accept it!

    Developers should focus their energy on important things that improve the game, and not on some whiners who complain because the game is too hard for them. Every game needs a challenge, and the most interesting and difficult challenge is not killing monsters or finishing quest, but dealing and socializing with other players; especially with those YOU consider griefers.

    P.S.: A question to all those who are saying there may be a seriously ill person behind the tamer's keyboard who can hardly lift a finger to play. Or there may be a tamer who's little son is sick. Is there a reason why you assume that specifically tamers have health problems and should be handled with extra care?
     
  34. Ericge99

    Ericge99 Guest

    An easier solution, try taming the new mount in FEl, yes Fel and try and drag the mount to the jetty area, guess what ... its not a guard zone!!
    Have your friends, if your in a party or group, take out, the greifer there. This may not be a solution but at least you can enact revenge ... just a thought. :D:
     
  35. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Yes it's true that nobody owns the spawn. But folks are quick to scream "bad tamer" if a pet attacks something they're fighting at times. It's not a pleasant way to treat your fellow players. When I'm playing my tamers, I don't jump on another person's monster, tame, resources etc. I appreciate the same courtesy back, though I certainly don't expect it. That's just called good manners! We surely don't need rules about it, do we? :)

    It is quite clear in some cases that some players may not be breaking the rules per se, but they are most certainly there to make other people miserable and that is certainly their intent. Where there is intent to make others miserable, regardless of how legal it is, it's a lousy way to behave. We've all attacked something then realised someone else was on it. Nobody expects miracles in a busy event spawn. But if someone yells "can I tame a horse" it's simple decency to allow it.

    Here's something for some of you to think about. Just letting the average tamer tame a horse will get them out of your sights much sooner than hindering them. Personally if I see someone struggling to tame I help them out. Then they're happy, and the spawn is available for the next person to kill or tame. That and well... if you co-operate, heal and help folks out, you might make new friends instead of enemies.

    Wenchy
     
  36. Fink:
    "If creatures turned yellow/invincible/untameable while they were being herded, would you consider that griefing tamers too?"

    It was (as already said), sarcasm. I find it laughable that they even consider it griefing.
     
  37. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    The trouble is that the type of griefing being defended in this case does NOT represent normal human interaction at all.

    Two quick points: multiple people attacking the same monster (tamer or warrior template is no matter) is not comparable to one wanting to tame something and get to have it as a pet for the indefinite future while the other kills it just for laughs. And, game mechanics currently supporting some form of griefing does not suggest that the griefing is somehow natural and good. Game mechanics in UO are a human-created set of rules which have been changed over time, and many of these changes were made to remove opportunities for griefing.

    The key to all of these kinds of things is the equal empowerment of both parties within the situation itself. If you do something upsetting to someone, that person should be equally empowered to do something upsetting back or bring themselves up to the level where they can. Or, that person should have the opportunity and power to learn from what happened and have a real chance to prevent you from doing it again. THAT is natural, normal, human interaction, not one person getting to torment and interfere with another with no repercussions, and the victim having no recourse within the situation.

    Skipping rezzing the griefer when he maybe, eventually dies, doesn't qualify, there's a healer 1 screen away, and there's always sac res and spellweaving. All of the spawn initiates in guardzone, and in Fel you can maybe try with a team to drag the horse out of town through that narrow gateway, some people did that for a while with some success, but that starts to get crazy.

    Also, the idea that unanswerable griefing is somehow a "challenge" is a fallacy, it's only a challenge when there's a real way to deal with it (and in the context of a video game, setting an alarm clock for 4AM local time is unreasonable).

    ---I write this post only as an argument against the position that griefing in the fashion being described is somehow normal and good. This post is not about new-ish video game horses and it's not intended to be critical of the new, interesting things that have recently been put together or the people who set them up for us. ----
     
  38. "The trouble is that the type of griefing being defended in this case does NOT represent normal human interaction at all."

    The trouble is that it isn't griefing. There is no such thing as normal human interaction. I don't know anyone who interacts in exactly the same way as each other. (even twins)

    "If you do something upsetting to someone, that person should be equally empowered to do something upsetting back or bring themselves up to the level where they can. Or, that person should have the opportunity and power to learn from what happened and have a real chance to prevent you from doing it again."
    Does it occur to no one that maybe they were just going about their buisness until as you say someone upset them? Now just because they might happen to have a better way of upsetting back their the outcast? It's so riddiculous, the extent of the threads on it attest to that.

    "Also, the idea that unanswerable griefing is somehow a "challenge" is a fallacy, it's only a challenge when there's a real way to deal with it (and in the context of a video game, setting an alarm clock for 4AM local time is unreasonable)."
    There is always more than one way to deal with something, but the cries of griefer! prevent it being asked, heard or responded to.
     
  39. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    If you are taming a horsie and somone else steps in and interferes simple Kill it off and neither of you get it. I know it sucks but ah well if they are being a buthead, reciprocate
     
  40. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Down with house fighting...la
     
  41. Helen D

    Helen D Guest

    Do tamers not hve the option of taming at another time? They already said several cities so far weve only had 1, i dont get why theres so much bickering about something that isnt even a problem.
     
  42. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Agreed. I don't think there's an actual, long-term problem. A bunch of people think that this slow-moving Cove portion of the event might be people's one and only chance to get to play with the new horsies and this belief is making for pressure in the Cove thing that is probably baseless.

    I've heard some real retardation out of some people on it - -

    On my shard there's a couple of guilds who have somewhat attempted to monopolize getting horses for themselves, their guildmates, and everyone they can think of. Some of the members sound obcessed with getting them, as though the horses are going to be rare, and they want to be the hoarders of the horses and have them to sell later on for big bucks. I heard one guy saying how he wasn't going to stop taming them, he was just going to tame and tame, and how he wanted to hold onto them for a year and then sell them. I told the same person that I believed these would be more widely available in the future, and he were like, "I hope not! There aren't enough rare pets in the world!" And I chuckle to myself because he's speaking from this position while simultaneously trying to hoard the creatures.

    And he's completely wrong on their being no opportunities to get rare pets. With blaze dog and super-rare color phase hiryus aside, extremely GOOD pets tend to be a rarity, and those take actual work to farm, and generally the work is tedious and long-term enough that you can't be succesfully griefed by either pet-killers or obcessive-hoarders.

    I get the sense that the peeps who are being driven by greed are massively wasting their time and energy in their efforts to make little monopolies for themselves, and in the end, that'll be the point that the normal and non-obcessing people will win on. I do wish we could get clearer word on it, though.
     

  43. I doubt it will ever happen ... the fact is Noone See a Problem , and if people just ignore it and say in time it will work out ... they are the fools ... Has it worked out yet ... the point is Greifers will always be around until someone at EA says Hum what if we changed this or "Imporved this" but i have yet to see it ... Zero tolerance with 0 actions ...
     
  44. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Ah, no harm, didn't see the reply. Bit hard to tell who's serious and who isn't on UHall..:blushing: