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Something to chew on while I'm gone

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Peaches, Apr 30, 2003.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Guest

    You need to keep your mind on macro prevention, we already have lots of macroers, esp out in the boat. As far as boat gains? It is within the code that moving is the key to gains, staying in one spot, isn't exactly playing the game normally versus using a boat. And yes, I do use boat for my gains. If you eliminate 8 by 8, you will create more unnattended macroing, which will make the ques jump to high volume calls. It took me three days to work neromancy on two characters. I remember back in the days of old, it took me a year to gm smithing. Mind you, I had available resources compared to the newer player who starts off with very limited resources, and with the gold reduction with monsters, I can see it taking them longer to train up resourced skills, ie blacksmith etc. I dont know why there is a limit of stats per day. It should flow smoothly with the raising of ones skills. You need to look at the new player who is literally stuck with low stats, who would get very discouraged with their inability to survive even an ettan given the new changes.

    As far as how long it should take to gm? I can't answer that, the method of days long ago was too long, now its too short, but that is too short for experienced players, too long for new players. The focus has to be on both, but the new player needs to have incentive to stay in the game, simply because their need for survival is detrimental, versus the vet who has plenty of resources. Just my two cents, thanks for posting this!
     
  2. Ravenspyre

    Ravenspyre Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    <hr></blockquote>Honestly, there is too much damage done to the system as is to even warrant removing 8x8. There are few who do not use this skill gain method. As for macroing prevention, it would have to be pretty hard system to prevent macroing alltogether. Skill gain right now, has been too easy, and generally, there isn't anyone in game who doesn't have a multi-GM character. Making it any easier, and you might as well add the Test Center set skill and stats however you like as a feature to production shards.
    <blockquote><hr>

    - How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

    <hr></blockquote>Depends on the skill. Begging, I would think would take a short ammount of time, but warrior skills and magery, should take a long time. Generally though, we are talking about a game ppl want to enjoy, and the majority do not enjoy building their character when they would rather try to test their limits.
    <blockquote><hr>

    - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

    <hr></blockquote>For me,t eh discovery of what is good, and what is not, is something that I prefer, and not being told that something is too easy for me to do. However, some would probably prefer a system like this, even though skills, like the crafts, provide an easy way to determine what is too easy, and what is not. Overall, I think it will depend on the player, and if sucha thing is implemented, a way to turn it off maybe for those who don't like such a thing. Or, like if it were taming, having a text of information say something like, you tame this creature easily, or you just barely tame it, when you succeed, not just a bark at the corner saying, it's too easy for you.
    <blockquote><hr>

    - I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

    <hr></blockquote>I don't understand how you mean this generally. Do you mean, just sit around the house for 15 minutes, and you automatically gain a stat point, or do you mean actively doing any skill?
     
  3. Basil

    Basil Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Should I eliminate 8x8

    <hr></blockquote>

    give me a months notice on that one /php-bin/shared/images/icons/laugh.gif

    <blockquote><hr>

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?



    <hr></blockquote>

    I think it should take longer than it does now...however after almost 6 years of bieng able to gm a warrior in 3 days (post pub 16) I think the player base has grown used to quick skill gain. If its made any slower now it will just cause a huge back lash.

    <blockquote><hr>

    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that

    <hr></blockquote>

    can you make it tie my shoe too?

    <blockquote><hr>

    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?


    <hr></blockquote>

    yes, just because people are lazy dosnt mean that the game needs changed for them
     
  4. that one guy

    that one guy Guest

    Hmmm..... some interesting questions.. I have always thought 8x8 was pretty cheap, and while I have done it for a couple skills, I always feel much prouder when I work the skills like they were intended to be worked. If I had my way UOA would be on the illegal 3rd party program list, but I know at least half the UO population would probably quit.

    While I normally think that skills should take a long time to GM, most skills that I work at high levels get their guaranteed gains (at least sometimes they do....) and that is it through hours of normal gameplay. I think a good time frame of GMing should be about 1-2 months if you play about 2 hours a day. Of course this should change with different skills (ie. taming should take longer because of the power you get from it, lockpicking should be harder because it was hard for me and I don't want everyone else to get off the hook so easily). I think it is total garbage how you can go from 0 to 120 animal lore or anatomy in a few hours, as well as a lot of other skills that you can 8x8 in 1 day of powergaming.

    I think that by showing % success on crafting skills that is good enough. I don't think you really need to know that what you are bashing with a sword is too easy for you. Besides, that is what the forums are here for, there are plenty of people to figure out what works best.

    I don't really agree with having stat gains for nothing. I think most people would just sit at Brit bank unattended overnight or stuff like that. I think what would be a better idea if possible would be to have stat gains connected to how hard you are working skills. I mean in real life you aren't going to get stronger by lifting a weight 1 time every day, you gain it by working out for a couple hours (well at least you gain it faster that way). If you are continually working a skill there should be only a 2 minute delay or something, but have that only work for skills over 50 or so to prevent see-sawing. I think this would make stat gains reasonable, the people who really want to work on their characters will get benefits and the people who don't obviously miss out.

    Um.... I guess that's about for now...
     
  5. Basil

    Basil Guest

    oops forgot this one

    <blockquote><hr>

    How much should I care about macroing prevention

    <hr></blockquote>

    depends on what your talking about here.. If somebody has a key jammed in a steal-last target macro to gain, I dont see a problem with it. I mean they will be doing the same damn thing if they are there. I dont see a huge problem with it.

    On the other hand if someone is using a carto script 24/7 and making millions of gp a day then yes i think you should crack down a bit /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

    I personally think it would be wise for OSI to try to work with easy (third party proggy) and make it work for both sides. As it is you cant exactly control them and people who can script it can do tons of dmg to the game. For example the carto bug wasnt anything untill it was a script.. after that people were unattened in carto shops all damn day making easy loot and nobody was busting them /php-bin/shared/images/icons/frown.gif It dosnt take a code fix to simply watch the shops for a few days and scare the hell out of the exploiters.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I've always hated 8x8. I must admit I used it for the one skill it really made sense to use it for...fishing. I would suggest removing the stat gain limit. Both # of stats per day, and the time limit between stat gains. Big deal if someone ping pongs their stats.
     
  7. Calypso_

    Calypso_ Guest

    Just on the macroing:

    I dont think that macroing prevention should be considered that important at all. I dont see how macroing can be a problem to the game at all. It still requires time and effort and dedication, to bring characters to Gm in 6/7 skills
    It all depends on the way each person likes to play the game.
    If you like to have your characters ready real quick to its maximum abilities, so why not? Its a game that we play to have fun, if people have more fun jumping immediately to the ultimate stats, let them enjoy the game that way. I dont see why the time that it takes someone to Gm would affect negatively or positively the game as a whole.
    There will always be many players like myself that have more fun going through the natural growing process. I am very much laid back when it comes to UO, and I am in no hurry to Gm anyone. My main character took me 2 years to GM 3 skills, and for instance Evaluate, I never did anything whatsoever to gain skill. I just gained it as I played the game, and one day I was GM. I was really happy, feeling that had been an accomplishment. The same when I GM'd Inscription.
    I think it is a lot more fun to play this way, but this is me.
    I have friends that dont really start playing the character until it is GM.
    Its a different style, but in the end of the day, we all want to have fun, relax, and enjoy the game. Why not let people play it the way that is more enjoyable for each one? (Of course, within the rules).
    I might get flamed for this one, but I honestly think that macroing should not be seen as some sort of crime. I may be missing something that I never thought of, and I am openminded enough to change my mind, if someone helps me see how macroing can be a bad thing. But the way I see it now, it doesnt affect me if my neighbor is macroing his chars. I could too, if I wanted.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What there needs to be, is the "casual" gain method and the "power gamer" method.

    I know alot of people feel "cheated" by power gamers, but they are a legit segment of the market that pays there $10 like everyone else.

    I really don't have any suggestions on how to allow people to powergame, but not abuse/break skill gain. I think 8x8 aside from the whole boating thing, is great, because its painful, boring, repetative, tedious, annoying, etc....basically power gamers get what they want, but they certainly pay a price for it.

    I think what 8x8 actually needs, is jut for damn boots not to clog the ocean. Maybe do a little work to boats, that after one hour of unoccupation they simply redeed themselves and go to either the backpack if logged in, or the bank box if logged out. That way, the stupid sea isn't clogged with boats.

    Now one thing that I do wonder about is the recent change to fighting skills. Suddenly you can only gain fighting skills against monsters with a certain defense level based on your skill level. For example, start a new warrior. Go pick a fight with a bone knight, or a mummy. I bet you won't gain a bit. But you used to. Now go fight a skele. You gain like mad. I get the concept, but again, how do advanced players train?

    Take for example the guy that is gm magery, eval, med, resist, etc...With the onset of AOS, and spell channel weaps, many mages decided to start training a weapon skill. But instead of fighting demons, liches, blood ele's and all that good stuff I used to be able to, I have to go fight skeletons? Arg, its a pure, 100% waste of my time. I actually don't have the option to gain skill at monsters appropriate to my "overall" skill level, simply because of my fighting skill level. That definatly needs to be addressed, since for advancec players, you have gone backwards a step and forced us to macro away on monsters that we have no interested in. I haven't been to Yew Cemetary for years, but now I find myself attended macro'ing away there day after day to gain archery, when I'd rather be out collecting goodies and such.

    I think all skill gain should perhaps take into account overall skill level, and maybe adjust gains, at least for weapon skills. I mean if a person has gm magery or gm swords, and decides to take up fencing or archery, you really shouldn't force him to go back to haven to train again.
     
  9. -Soken-

    -Soken- Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?


    <hr></blockquote>

    Hmmm yes I would have to stay some 8x8ing and macroing is kind of crazy. You can 120 anata from 0 in a under 2 hours. If skill gain was more predictable and sane yes 8x8 wouldnt be necessary. I would rather have fun and gain decently at the same time then have to 8x8 all my skills.

    <blockquote><hr>


    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?


    <hr></blockquote>
    Totally depends on the skill. Obviously some skills should NOT take as long as they do take, while others should take longer. I think taming, barding and some of the other hard skills should be kept as they are. Taming still takes a REALLY long time to GM (compared to other skills), same with poisoning, lockpicking etc.

    Absolutly NO to part b of the question. All skills should not be the same for obvious reasons.

    <blockquote><hr>


    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?


    <hr></blockquote>

    I dunno on this one.

    <blockquote><hr>


    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?


    <hr></blockquote>

    Ya i dont really get this either... so every 15 min youll gain a stat? What stat would gain? hmm.... If thats the case, Id say no, Keep it with the skills. Dont just have you auto-magically gain a str point every 15 min. =/


    Anyways thats what I thinK! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
    Cheers all
     
  10. Megalon

    Megalon Guest

    Unless you're going to implement ROT I don't see how you're going to control the macroers. As for stat gain, as long as it's working as advertised (I personally haven't had any problems gaining) I don't see why it should be changed.
     
  11. Kethinov

    Kethinov Guest

    If anything you should make skill gain easier and take less time.

    Make all skills 3-4 day projects, yet consume resources. Dropping 100 to 200k on Magery plus 4 days of 8x8ing is a substantial commitment. Anyone who says it should take more than that just wants to be leet while everyone else works hard. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  12. ChrisMercury

    ChrisMercury Guest

    I don't macro. I don't 8X8, so it's difficult for me to assess them. However, I would like to see a system that would somehow make macroing no more(or less) effective than a more natural skill gain through game play.
    Keep in mind, I'm a roleplayer, so I'm a firm believer that character development leads to stronger abilities, and not that stronger abilities are needed to develop characters.

    Honestly, I don't believe in the standard game system of stat and skill gain.

    I believe that each character should set their stats(up to 225 point limit) at character creation. I think that gaining or losing points(to switch stats later or increased limit due to a powerscroll) should be very slow. People don't just grow much smarter, stronger, or faster in a matter of hours, nevermind days.

    I think all skill should gain at relatively the same rate, and that rate should benefit from a high intelligence score. This benefit should not be too extreme. The last thing we need is for mages to take less than a day to 7xgm like warriors used to. Perhaps different skills could benefit from different stats. Tinkering might be easier to master if you have high dexterity, for instance, while Magic Resistance might benefit from a high physical strength.

    I think three months to a year(depending on how much you play) should be enough time to gm any skill. Nobody should gm a skill faster than three months, and even casual players should have gmed skills inside a year.

    SOme sort of indicator for difficulty-based non-craft skills would be helpful. For instance, when we provoke a creature, and there's no(or very low) chance of gaining, there ought to be a special message indicating the ease of your success.

    As for decoupling stat gain from skill gain, see above. I think stats as they exist now are nonsensical, and backwards. Skills gain should depend on stats, not vice-versa.
     
  13. ChrisMercury

    ChrisMercury Guest

    I'm of exactly the opposite opinion. I'd like to see skill gain consume ~less~ resources. A person should ~not~ need to make hundreds or thousands of heating stands or oil cloths or gnarled staffs to gm skills. I'd like to see skill gain to be less resource oriented, and more time oriented. *nod* 3-4 days is not enough time, and 100-200k in gold is too much to spend. Just my opinion. :)
     
  14. Aegean

    Aegean Guest

    Very interesting...

    How much should I care about macroing prevention?
    Since UOA is a legal macro program, you might as well just allow it. People will find a way, regardless of the measures put in place.

    Should I eliminate 8x8?
    Yes.

    If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
    No. I think it's rather ridiculous that there are these magic "runs" out there.

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill?
    40 hours. Just my opinion.

    Should all skills be the same?

    Yes, yes, yes! Every skill should take the same amount of work, BUT they should also provide a similar amount of reward. (a whole other can of worms)

    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need?
    Possibly a way to see the difficulty before you begin. I would use chest traps as an example (trapped: level 3), but remove trap is worthless any way. (more worms)

    If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
    Yes. It can be frustrating not knowing if you are wasting your time or not. People want to know that their efforts are worthwhile.

    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?
    I wouldn't mind, but stat gain should still be tied to an action. Put in a weight(STR), a book(INT), and some weighted gloves(DEX) that can simply be double clicked for a gain every 15 minutes. I just don't like the idea of sitting in a chair for an hour and gaining 4 strength.
     
  15. Jasco_GL

    Jasco_GL Guest

    "- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    <font color=blue>I do not think macroing is that bad, particularly if the same gains could be gained with regular play. That is the real issue here. If there was no difference, nobody would have a valid complaint. There are some that derive great game pleasure setting up macros to do tasks. If they are gaining no more than convenience, it is not an unfair advantage. Somehow make it so skills are gained with game play.</font color=blue>

    - How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

    <font color=blue>Time required to gm… I think a month is a good time, maybe 60+ hours of play time. Enough to feel you have completed something of value. Not all skills should take the same time. The more powerful the skill’s properties, the longer it should take. </font color=blue>

    - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

    <font color=blue>More info is very welcome! It would be nice if skill gain could be coupled to risk in some way. FInancial or physical as appropriate.</font color=blue>

    - I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

    <font color=blue>I think it would depend on the replacing mechanism. Coupled skill/stats are realistic. I do think it should be predictable, which again is realistic. If you work out for 8 hours, you should have results which follow curves known to those who study physiology. I have always thought stamina should come from skill use, as well as simply running around with a full pack… what else should you get from simply doing just that?

    The crux to my complaints with stat gain are the very slow rates and getting painted into a corner. My bard/mage lost a ton of str to P16 and I really have no means of getting it back. He is a 7x GM and has no room to ‘exercise’ some heavy skill. I feel a solution should exist whereby a character can simply work a stat by doing a skill which places demands on that stat. Work mining, with no gain, except to push his stats around. Working out IRL does work, and doesn’t seem to ruin people’s careers *big grin*

    I can imagine the dOoDs hanging around a uo gymnasium all puffing about how strong, dextrous, etc they are… make it public, like a dart board’s bark…hehe. Bragging in game is big business.</font color=blue>

    So, stuff like that. Please feel free to discuss amongst yourselves . . .

    MrTact "

    <font color=blue>Jasco</font color=blue>
     
  16. maligant

    maligant Guest

    To jump down the long postings... I'm going to post my ideas even if I repeat others since if more people have the same idea and post then that is what usually gets looked into first.

    8x8 sometimes is the only sane... insane way to gain skill. Sometimes trying to gm a skill naturally is nice and all, but when at gm you get benefits or simply you don't fizzle at resurrection... then getting that gm is worth it. 8x8 isn't a walk in the park either... it's not rocket science, but it can take hours to just get a gain run. an 8x8 grid is pretty large and I don't know anyone that tries to move it's perimeter yet alone know just where that perimeter begins since that would be a square with 64 spots.... And you can't really unattend macro that. You can unattend macro on a boat.. but just put in more sea monsters and water ellies. Simple solution to me. Boats can outrun them... but if you aren't there and hit one.. then it will be your death. And maybe make the sea a little more worthwhile as well.

    Make skill gain harder or not? Well I wouldn't say it really is easy... People say they gm necro in two days... but that doesn't mean you play a few minutes and pop... it means ten hours of straight gaming and working on that skill alone. For me... That is about a month or two or more of working that skill. I rarely work a skill for more than one hour... yet alone work on that same skill a few times a week. If someone puts the time in then let them gm it. You can beat FFX say two months... but someone else can beat it in a day... simply because they put all their time in winning at once instead of a little here and there and doing more exploring, talking to people... etc.

    I think a neat idea would be to give the message you can't use this spell, etc... because you are not knowledgeable enough. Like taming an animal you don't have the skill for.. it simply won't let you. Or maybe a message like you are sufficient in casting this or creating this... you can't learn any more when working this spell or crafting this item.

    Stat cap.... I never thought much about it... I knew the see-saw ordeal came in and that stat cap was to control that... but still stats seem to not really give too much advantage over someone that doesn't have the same ones. Of course maybe in pvp... but having a 15 stat cap... max stats... 225... that is 15 days if you started with zero stats.. but since you start with so many already... just say 12 days of work... two weeks to get desired stats... the difference between 80 and 100 dex isn't that noticeable either... and with 80 to 100 int is an extra ebolt.. but if you have gm med or focus... you can gain mana back nice and fast and get that ebolt off in a few seconds... so ultimately stat gain really only affects pvp players. Pvm can deal with less this or that... at least I can.

    Thats my thoughts.
     
  17. Jasco_GL

    Jasco_GL Guest

    I have to agree with Jasco 100%, he is right on target!

    The thought struck me.... why not break up skill gains with having to perform quests to move further? The quest engine is wonderful, and this even seems feasible from my ignorant view.
     
  18. maligant

    maligant Guest

    well I hope you agree with yourself 100% I saw you say that.. then went to read the post.. then noticed the sigs are the same and then noticed the posters were the same.
     
  19. Jasco_GL

    Jasco_GL Guest

    A keen eye indeed! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/uhoh3.gif

    I liked your suggestion to add some danger to the seas.
     
  20. Moonglum

    Moonglum Guest

    Skill Gain - Should be considered for each skill, taking into account the 2 major playstyles PvM &amp; PvP. The last thing a PvPer wants to do is sit for months training his warrior/mage just to be able to fight, so I would think the "standard" combat skills should be fairly easy. Its when you want to get some of the more powerful skills in the game, esp PvM-wise (Barding, Taming) it should be more difficult and time consuming. Craft skills are primarily about having the resources and should stay the way they currently are, they don't seem broken.

    To be honest I like skill gain how it is currently in the game except for the basic combat skills (tactics, weapon-skill).
     
  21. Shawshank

    Shawshank Guest

    I like that idea of using items to gain in stats
    like "you read a book and feel a little smarter"
    or "you lift a weight and feel a little stronger"
    and "you play with the rubix cube and feel a little more dextrous"
    obviously limited my 15 mins per gain or so.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The real question about skill gain is to consider why people do what they do. When UO began, GMing a skill meant months and months of *work*. But people put in the effort because it actually *meant* something to be a GM (hell, it actually meant a lot if you were a Master of a skill).

    So, in coordination with removing 8x8 and making skill gain a bit more regulated (something like RoT), why not turn it into a gold sink. I could see it working like this....

    Each Earth day you are allowed to "buy up" a given skill by 10 points. The cost for the skill would follow a schedule like this...
    <pre>
    Start End Cost Total
    0 10 30 300
    10.1 20 60 594
    20.1 30 120 1,188
    30.1 40 240 2,376
    40.1 50 480 4,752
    50.1 60 960 9,504
    60.1 70 1,920 19,008
    70.1 80 3,840 38,016
    80.1 90 7,680 76,032
    90.1 100 15,360 152,064
    100.1 110 30,720 304,128
    110.1 120 61,440 608,256
    Total 1,216,218</pre>


    This means that you have the option each earth day to *buy* up one skill by 10 points (gold sink and keep people from macroing). You could also make it without the number of skills restriction, so you can buy up as many skills as you want in one day but still limit it to 10 points. This would let people decide (based on how much gold they had on hand) to either go work on the skill or buy it up for the day.

    End result is a nice gold sink (would cost 1.2 million to get a skill to Legendary) and would make someone take 12 days (about 2 weeks) to buy a skill from zero to 120. This wouldn't stop all macroing but those with the cash would most likely just buy up the skill for the day.

    As for the difficulty based thing, it would be nice (though I usually come to Stratics and look it up) if in-game you could "consider" a particular monster and have it tell you is it's too hard or too easy for your current skills (like we do with crafting now and the success percentages).

    Stat gain should remain tied to skills; it's a shame stats don't affect skills anymore.
     
  23. i like that idea! quests per level would be good. but tedious if you have to do one for every skill you do, as for anti-macroing code, lets be honest here, you wouldnt be able to do it. anything a macroer can do, a person can claim is them, i dont think macroing is good(unattended) but most of my newer characters or ones ive had to change from the publishes introduced have been macro'd and 8x8'd where applicable, ive played 5 1/2 years now, and i dont want to sit there and go through magery every 3 months, at this time, i want to enjoy PLAYING, not gaining.

    8x8 is good for people gaining, but not for those who dont use it, i think a resourse square should exist, but cant you mix it up a bit? not always the even 8 squares? 8 then 3 then 9... that would hamper macro'ers but would still leave those who want to gain in a quicker fashion with an option to do so, because to gain there odd square system youd have to be attended.

    Most of my main use characters now were made post UOR, i did most of my provoking at the hedge maze, my taming was done slooooooowly on ice isle in T2A + delucia, smithing took me months and months to get to GM, but power hour was a major factor in when id gain skill.

    how about special items which speed up skill gain? brain food ;-) that would certainly give life to the cooking profession, and perhaps in a later scenario, let tinkers make brain infusers? you sit in it and perform tasks, and gain at 3xGGS or something? that would make it interesting /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif and perhaps begging to guildmasters with GM begging would get you skill points in a quicker fashion?

    as for how long it takes to GM a skill, that depends on the skill, Magery, Taming and Barding should take a longer time because of there substantial money making/lack of risk approach to the world. The rest, a week per skill, so Macing/Tact/Anat would all rise at the same time and therefore would all be done in a week.

    If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that? HELL YEH! but you should have to goto a guild master of that skill, and tell it what you're doing, it checks your skill and says "do something harder" dont be specific in what needs training.

    Stat gain is FAR too slow, you can GM tailoring in a day, and only have enough strength to carry 10 bolts of cloth?!?!? perhaps add serpent blood into the game? ;-) or steroids, brain food, and repetition for dex.
     
  24. Merle Corey

    Merle Corey Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    - How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    <hr></blockquote>
    I think you shouldn't care at all. Raise-through-use systems reward repetition and thus tend to promote macroing. There is nothing you can do about it.

    Now, as for 8x8, I can think of two reasons why it should not be eliminated. First, as someone has already mentioned, this will make the split between "haves" and "have-nots" (veterans and newer players, in this case) all the more pronounced. I don't think we need more of that, no matter how "proud" certain veterans may feel about their "achievements" in the game. This kind of stuff tends to drive newer players away from the game, and I had a chance to witness myself how exactly that works.

    Second reason is this... face it, we are deep in the realm of the elder game. Champion spawns, anyone? Doom Gauntlet? Anyway, the majority of the fun in the game these days is pretty high end. Getting there -- which means training -- is not fun. It's fun the first time you do it. Maybe the second time. When you have a couple of accounts, training becomes a chore real soon.

    Finally, powergamers will always end up being better off than casual players. They will have better connections, more powerful systems, more time on their hands and so on. You can't make all players equal in real life. IMNSHO you shouldn't try to do it in game, either.

    <blockquote><hr>

    - How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

    <hr></blockquote>
    Are we talking about someone who is new to the game or someone who has been around for a long time?

    I am in favor of a system that will force newer players to gain slowly while veterans would be able to gain faster (again, the reasoning is that GMing a skill for the umteenth time is not fun). No idea if it can be implemented at all, though.

    I am not sure whether all skills should take the same time to GM. Probably not, but I don't see how you can decide which skills should raise faster or slower.

    <blockquote><hr>

    - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

    <hr></blockquote>
    Two messages. "You cannot gain because this task is too hard for you" and "you cannot gain because this task is too simple for you". And if you end up doing this, please make sure it's not spamming you like the Valor virtue message does ("Yeah, yeah, I know I cannot gain any more Valor. Will you please shut up already, you stupid game?")

    <blockquote><hr>

    - I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

    <hr></blockquote>
    I would tentatively label this idea as bad, yes. It makes no sense whatsoever (well, ok, the whole game makes little sense but this has to be a more superior example of senselessness), and in addition to that, it violates the "raise-through-use" design of UO. I don't become stronger by just standing there and doing nothing at all.

    If anything, I'd say stat gain rate should be increased and the cap raised or removed. 12 points per day every 15 minutes is ridiculously low.

    ----

    Now... if I have one request, it will be this: before you mess with 8x8 and skill gain, please give us those "soulstones". That would alleviate the issue of reprofiling existing characters, solving most problems associated with re-training your characters again and again (because you've made a bad choice early on, because your characters aren't exactly fun to play anymore due to rampant nerfs, because you just want to try another template, and so forth). With that in place, I don't think a drastic measure like getting rid of 8x8 would be that painful.

    Regards,
    M.C.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest


    The thought struck me.... why not break up skill gains with having to perform quests to move further? The quest engine is wonderful, and this even seems feasible from my ignorant view.


    Because not everyone likes to do quests.... I hate them. They are boring to me..
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This means that you have the option each earth day to *buy* up one skill by 10 points (gold sink and keep people from macroing). You could also make it without the number of skills restriction, so you can buy up as many skills as you want in one day but still limit it to 10 points. This would let people decide (based on how much gold they had on hand) to either go work on the skill or buy it up for the day.

    End result is a nice gold sink (would cost 1.2 million to get a skill to Legendary) and would make someone take 12 days (about 2 weeks) to buy a skill from zero to 120. This wouldn't stop all macroing but those with the cash would most likely just buy up the skill for the day.



    1. There are to many "gold sinks" now.....
    2. I have played three years and I cant even afford PS's., and I for one am tired of all the "gold sinks" in this game now.....armor, regs, wpns, jewelry, and item insurance, etc., etc. bah!
    3. With Advanced characters it would not take 12 days.....
    4. A game based on work to gain skills, is the best and not bought skills either.....Work the skills as they are intended to gain in them, or dont gain anything......
     
  27. Mordanna

    Mordanna Guest

    How much should I care about macroing prevention?
    enough to discourage unattended macroing. but if we have a skill gain system that actually works, i don't think that is much of an issue.

    Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
    you essentially answered your own question. if we have a working, reliable skill gain system, "crutches" like 8x8 and "hot spot" methods aren't needed.

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?
    it shouldn't be possible to GM a skill "overnight". please don't cater to the "i want it all and i want it NOW" crowd. and no, not all skills should be the same. there needs to be a learning curve, or people will get bored of the game quickly. the speed with which a skill is trained up should be in reasonable relation to the benefit you get from it.

    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
    yes, i think it should. this applies already to the taming skill ("that wasn't even challenging") and i find it important that players are not left in the dark if something they do is not hard enough to let them gain.

    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?
    i think it's a good idea to decouple stat gains from skill gains now that we do not get a stat bonus anymore. however i do not like the idea that stat gains are a "free lunch". maybe you could come up with a different solution for that.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm not saying you don't *have* to buy skills just saying that it would now be an option. You can *never* have too many gold sinks. Advanced characters take real money and they are templates, not individual skills. You can still raise skills the old-fashioned way and with a form of RoT implemented, skill gains would be much better regulated (and would cut down on macroing a bit).
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Two messages. "You cannot gain because this task is too hard for you" and "you cannot gain because this task is too simple for you". And if you end up doing this, please make sure it's not spamming you like the Valor virtue message does ("Yeah, yeah, I know I cannot gain any more Valor. Will you please shut up already, you stupid game?")

    Ya that would tend to make me log out in a big hurry.....I have to put up with enough spam without npcs doing it....../php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Advanced char still have skills they did not have to work. Its the same thing. If you buy it you dont have to work it.
    And yes there is to many "gold sinks" in this game. Not everyone makes a ton of gold on here like some... And with jewelry on top of it....skill gain is to easily bought now without adding more ways to buy it.......Skills are meant to be worked NOT bought!


    As far as I am concerned 8x8 is fast enough for anyone that wants to gain skills....At least he is working it and not buying it.....
     
  31. bltaylor

    bltaylor Guest

    How much should I care about macroing prevention ? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    You shoudn't care. As long as it is legitimate skill gaining, it shouldn't matter. No 8x8 isnt as effective as most people think, especially for magery gains. NO.

    How long to GM? Should all be the same?

    This is too difficult. We don't have access to the information you do on the amount of players in game, and the percentages breakdown on the age of accounts. This ultimately will determine the reaction to any action. Not everyone reads stratics, you know? I for one think all skills should be the same. If I'm working A SKILL, why should it take me any longer to GM than anything else that someome else is working ?

    If a task isn't hard enough should it tell me?

    Yes, but I like a previous suggestion of making it hidable and also with messages that are skill related

    Stat gain every 15 minutes related to skill gain ?

    No on gain every 15 minutes UNLESS you are working a skill. I like the coupling of the two(stat &amp; skill), but make stat gains related to certain skills like under powerhour. (e.g have to work pickpocket to gain dex, magery skills to gain int, and physical skills to gain str)
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    How long to GM? Should all be the same?

    This is too difficult. We don't have access to the information you do on the amount of players in game, and the percentages breakdown on the age of accounts. This ultimately will determine the reaction to any action. Not everyone reads stratics, you know? I for one think all skills should be the same. If I'm working A SKILL, why should it take me any longer to GM than anything else that someome else is working ?


    I dont think they all should take the same amount of time....the more powerful a skill the more time it should take to gm it. And it also is a challenge to work harder skills. If everything was same there would be no challenge and No reason to play. In other words, if you do one skill no sense doing another, because its all the same, every time, for every skill...........boring....


    I personally think they should have left the skills and the ways to gain skills, pre-GGS, pre-AoS, pre-Advanced char, and pre-Jewelry.......it was a heck of alot better than it is now....

    I agree with the rest of your post...
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Just a couple of ideas I had. I didn;t thinkt eh gold sink was that bad an idea, but I was thinking more along the lines of the old games, where you got experience (our equivalent of fame/karma I guess) for figthing thins, and then could 'spend' thos experience points to raise your skills.

    People got get 'skill points' by PvM, crafting, quests, fame/karma or whatever other system to reward people fits with their skills/playstyle.

    Also, when I first played, skill gain was a goal and interesting. Now that I've developed 6 or 7 chars, training the remaining 2 is just tedious, I'd rather have their skills up where I can play (PvM for me mainly). The current virtue system may be partly working towards this now.

    Someone mentioned a powergame way and a non-powergame way. Something like this may be viable, if perhaps there was some extra reward for the time spent non-powergaming. No idea what that reward may be, nothing too dreamatic or the powergamers will complain the have to do it the other way, and not too cheap that no one will non-powergame.

    Justa few options.
     
  34. all I can say is "thank god all my characters are almost done"

    (nothing good can come of this)

    I don't think I've ever read a scarier post than this one - hehe
     
  35. Chinalilly

    Chinalilly Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    - How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    <hr></blockquote>

    As much as I love the ability to get fast skill gain via 8x8 (at least via my inept method of doing that), yes. I do believe that 8x8 should be eliminated. It makes skills like magery, vet, lore, music, peace, necro ... a huge joke because each one can be had in a day or two by sailing on a boat.

    I doubt that you guys intended the anti macro code to be used for the purposes of rapid skill gain as it has been.


    <blockquote><hr>

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

    <hr></blockquote>

    That's kind of a moot point now. The fact that one can spend $29.99 on a character, and then put on some jewelery to get enhanced skills to get to GM, or higher with the use of powerscrolls, within 1/2 hour of character creation, is sad.

    Yes, I speak from experience. I bought a bard a couple weeks ago. I have worked up 3 bards on 3 other shards, but didn't have one on the shard I'm currently playing, and I'm tired of working up skills I've done multiple times in the past.

    Over 4 days I got to 110 peace/music; GM magery/med; and high 80's eval. Once there, I hit a vendor and bought a +6 provocation ring, and then met a friend who gave me a +8 provocation bracelet. I immediately had 99 provocation. Can't get much faster than that!

    So the only real way to get rid of "instant GM" is to get rid of advanced character purchase, and skill enhancing jewelery. But I doubt very much that either is within your power to do so.

    <blockquote><hr>

    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

    <hr></blockquote>

    Yes, that would take alot of the guess work out of working skills. Right now it's a guessing game as to what works and what doesn't.

    I know you guys give us these fancy tables and all these "great" formulas to work with so we can figure things out. But I need to tell you that not all of us understand these formulas you guys come up with. They are too complex/complicated. The barding formula for example, is completely and totally beyond me and many that I know, despite much time and effort put into trying to understand it. The new Magic Resistance formula that Vex posted is just as fruity.

    Why can't you guys come up with something simple!? Something where we don't have to pull out graph paper and a calculator and spend so much time trying to figure out what to do to get gains or how things work? Sometimes I feel I'm in math class instead of a computer game where I am supposed to be having fun. Sometimes I feel this game is just too much trouble to be worth it. It's deeply, deeply frustrating/php-bin/shared/images/icons/frown.gif

    <blockquote><hr>

    - I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

    <hr></blockquote>

    Depends on what you mean by "just gain a stat point". I would like to be able to control exactly what stat point I will be gaining. I personally would like to see the cap lifted off of stat gains. The cap, even 10 a day, makes it near impossible for a new character to be able to do anything in this game besides work skills and die alot. This game, especially with the changes to the monster AI, needs to have strong, intelligent, dextrous characters to play it. You aren't giving us that with a cap of 10 stats per day. It takes literally weeks to get desirable stats so that we can take a character out and be effective at anything.
     
  36. Lord Marius

    Lord Marius Guest

    I've read through this entire thread as it is now.. I have some rebuttle and opinions /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

    <blockquote><hr>

    How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

    <hr></blockquote>
    As many have said.. if there was a good skill gain system in place the macroing would almost be more of a hassle to setup the macro then just going out and playing. Of course I would still try to prevent AFK macroing.

    As for my suggestion for skill gain. The GGS system was a good idea. But having different times for different sets of total skill points was a bad idea. Training a skill is training a skill. 8x8 has its good points and its bad points depending on how you look at it. I'm a powergamer. I wont play a character until all my chosen skills are at their max. I also enjoy working skills. When I cant gain a skill, right now its stealing...I'm down to GGS only /php-bin/shared/images/icons/mad.gif, its aggrivating and takes the fun out of the game for me. But the skill shouldnt just raise like focus from 0 either. IMO, most skills should be used based. You sucessfully use the skill so many times, you should theoretically learn and get better. How often that is I cant say because of the current ways you can gain skills. 8x8 is drastically faster than killing ogrelords all day in Despise using EVs.

    <blockquote><hr>

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

    <hr></blockquote>
    That would be directly tied to what you are doing. If you're actively using the skill more than the next guy, you should gain more. All skills should also gain the same. Especially now! Many of you who posted in here have mentioned taming as being the all powerful. Its really not. Sure my character may not be taking the damage.. but my pets are. You must also consider the fact that a paladin with the Zyronic Claw can take a blood elemental faster than my WW can. AoS balanced alot of classes whether anybody wants to admit it or not. Paladins have become the new "uber" class when it comes to PvM. For those of you who think a peace tamer rox.. try a peace pally and some good equipment. So with the balance issues that have been implemented.. why the need for any skill to be harder than another?

    <blockquote><hr>

    For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

    <hr></blockquote>
    Something that would be a very nice addition is for magery.. have the minimum skill requirement on the spell page like necro/pally books have. Also I would recommdn implementing this to determine good/bad for skill gain and could even be used to warn players of the "danger" level of monsters. This is a part of DAoC. I dont remember the specifics.. I'll apply this to two skills. Taming first. When you use the taming skill and get the target cursor.. the animal/monster will highlight a specific color based on your skills.. (yellow would be easy, orange for medium, red for hard) A warrior would be able to view it by highlighting the creature using the war mode cursor.

    <blockquote><hr>

    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

    <hr></blockquote>
    I wouldnt uncouple them. If you're using a STR based skill you should be able to gain a STR point and the same for INT and DEX. You should not however have to gain in the skill or anything, have a time limit, skill pointed up and so forth.. much like they are supposed to be now.
     
  37. Vidala

    Vidala Guest

    In PvP, things get retooled so often that templates phase in and out about every 6 months or so, or at least with every major expansion/update (AOS being the most recent). Now I do agree skills are way to easy to GM now, but you have to find balance in the whole thing. Making changes where people have to drastically redo their template to keep up with the PvP scene every 6 months is a nuissance as it is, but if skill gain is made even harder, then it'll be a huge thorn in the arse.

    What I'm getting at, is not to make skill gain easier to make the fixing of templates easier, it's to make quality decisions on changes so PvP templates don't have to be changed so often. As it is, I'm tedious to do anything with my characters knowing that overnight, I could've wasted several weeks changing a characters template to something that will literally be worthless overnight.
     
  38. Azrile

    Azrile Guest

    MrTact,

    In my opinion, this would be a waste of time. 'fixing' skill gain is kind of like using fiction ingame.... it just cannot work. (no kidding here). As soon as you make skill gain possible through normal gameplay, you make it incredibly easy for the maxers... and if you make it challanging for maxers, then you make it near impossible for people to gain through normal gameplay.

    It is also impossible to balance skills against each other when trying to even out skill gain. A skill like provoke, you use one time every few mins while hunting... but a skill like weapon or magery, you use every few seconds.
    I think things are far from perfect, but I don't think there is anything you can do to make them better... any changes you make will make skill gain 'different', but not necessarily better. Unless you plan on going through each skill individually, taking out all the possible 'training' techniqes and balance it so that gains come steadily during normal gameplay.. However, I think that is impossible, since players will always find a new training technique..

    Just from an historical perspective... it took about 1month for players to figure out 8x8 once the anti-macro code was put in with UO:Ren. It probably took 6 weeks for the first 'guide to 8x8ing' was posted here on stratics. Take a look at all the ways players 'beat the dev team', like the lamp room, macroing at artifact sites etc etc. Players will always find a way to train faster then is expected, so why bother changing the method now. Players will not do things the way you think they will, they will find the easiest way possible.

    So I think you will spend 6 months trying to fix 8x8ing, and players will spend about 3 weeks figuring out how to beat it... and we will be back where we are now, except we will have lost 6 months of dev time.

    The only suggestion I would make is to shorten the GGS times.

    This all comes from the perspective of a player that is very tired of the dev team taking sideways steps. Too much dev time is spent redoing old systems and in the end, just makeing them different, not necessarily better. IMHO, that dev time should be spent adding new things.

    Besides a couple skills that seem to have been effected with AOS (parry for example), I don't think fixing skill gains is worth the time it would take.
     
  39. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I suggest you enjoy your vacation.
     
  40. haohju

    haohju Guest

    If the action for a skill gain is pleasant, I will not do a macro act.

    The greatest fault of training is that the skill which is not gained in skill exists, enjoying itself. In order to gain animal taming, it is not interesting to train an animal intently. It will be very pleasant if an animal has the opportunity of a skill gain by giving a command. In order to gain stealing, is the act which robs a pack horse of the steak of a fish a joke?

    If pleasure is in the action for [email protected], however difficult it may be, I will finish.
     
  41. Guest

    Guest Guest

    azrile,
    I couldnt agree with you more. The dev teams time, after all the fixes are done of course, which may take a while, would be better spent in my opinion, developing new things for the players.
    But I stress, the lag problem needs to be addressed and all the bugs need to be fixed first, and I mean all of them, and some game play issues, that I hope are being worked on.
    We could use more spawn sites, and some new creatures in the game. And one idea is a dungeon where pets are not allowed except as ridables. This along with the hopes that pet/creature hps get balanced out so that tamer can hunt again, also. There are to many players, with pets sitting in the stables, afraid to hunt with them.
    Anyway, your post is right on in my opinion.
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Go on vacation, have a good time, and when you get back, dont change anything except ggs on this subject, as azrile suggested. This whole idea is scarying me. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/crazy.gif
     
  43. TeamScheme

    TeamScheme Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    - How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?


    <hr></blockquote>

    Get rid of 8x8, and use something like ROT, which is predictable and sane and makes it pointless to macro for high end skill.

    <blockquote><hr>


    - How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?


    <hr></blockquote>

    In theory, since all skills take the same amount out of your total pool of 700, they should be equally useful and take the same amount of time to GM.

    <blockquote><hr>


    - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?


    <hr></blockquote>

    If you do this, give the optionto turn it off.

    <blockquote><hr>


    - I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?


    <hr></blockquote>

    That's pretty much what it is now... I just remember to use Arms Lore every 15 minutes. The skills I really use have nothing to do with stat gain.
     
  44. Saharah

    Saharah Guest

    I personally don't have a problem with macroing or even unattended macroing. I think if some players want to gm skills in a hurry, go out and play and have fun it's fine. Same with 8x8. It doesn't concern me. Personally I like working most of my skills as intended, but I have used 8x8 for fishing. It's boring and it was still slow. I also used it to gm magery after working it to 87 on my own. Boring, it took hours, took tons of regs, I got no money from it. Whats the harm there? I macroed my tailor from about 70 to gm...it still took me a month even then! lmao The point here is, I am not a great powergamer.....I just play for fun either way, but have no problem with these "issues". Using exploits for monetary gain...yes you should definitely be on top of that!

    I dont really have much of an opinion on stat gain other than, as a new player, I remember hoarding things to sell. I had lots of trouble carrying hides, armor, weapons ect that I scrounged for on a daily basis. Back then see sawing was used alot to get stats where they were at least acceptable. I am not sure it should be that easy, but perhaps giving new characters the option to start out with say 150 skill pts to work with upon creation of a new char might be a solution. A max of say 60 maybe even 50 to each stat allowed at that point, then working stats as it stands now seems fine to me. If it's not broken, don't break it. =]


    Difficulty Based Skills...

    I don't think we need this much hand holding. One of my characters is a tamer and I am constantly asked "what should I tame". This question has more often than not, led to some very long lasting friendships and alliances in game and in real life. I like helping and I like communicating with people. Besides there are lots of good resources out there for people and I often direct them to stratics or elsewhere [Looks around nervously] for good information regarding skill gain.





    Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?





    A question for MrTact: Are you implying that the current ggs isn't predictable and in fact wasn't a sane move? *grins*
     
  45. Neva Darcan

    Neva Darcan Guest

    When you first start playing UO, you don't know all tips and tricks that others do.

    In my opinion, 8x8 is best for vets. The ones that have already built a character, or are building a new one. They, like me, want to reach the finished product as soon as possible as to start playing with it.

    Vets have already been experienced the fun and excitement of working a new characters skills. Now, at least for me, if I do it the "old fashioned way", it's just for the memories.

    Macroing - It's not so much the macroing that is going on, but the program being used to do it. Fully functional automated do anything scripting program that you should be worried about.

    All skills should not be the same to GM. Taming should be much harder to GM than melee skills and so forth.

    About the only skills left that are actually difficult to GM are lockpicking, taming and discordance. And even discord is easy if you use the above mentioned scripting program. Unfortunately for me, I don't cheat. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/frown.gif

    Anyway. Good luck in whatever you decide.
     
  46. shandor

    shandor Guest

    you could make the skill gain system base on number of skill uses instead of time as in the ggs.

    this way gains will be very predictable, the powergamers will still be able to raise skills fast while casual gamers know they will gain after a while.

    8x8 should not be removed unless you find a way to implement similar fast gains without allowing those uber fast gains as during powerhour.

    a time of 3-4 days is an ok time for a skill to be gmed, and especially skills like poisoning or lockpicking should be made easier to be comparable to the gains of other skills. so yes, all skills should take the same time or number of uses to gm.

    about difficulty based skills, i dont see anything wrong in telling the player that a task is too easy, it might safe a new player from wasting his time on mongbats when he would need skeletons.

    stat gains were nice during ph time due to the seesaw method, but a bit too fast.
    atm they are too slow, an artificial limit on the daily gains does not serve anyone well.
    the stat gains can be tied to skill gains, but should also be based on the number of skill uses, not a random generator or a timer.

    -shandor
     
  47. Azrile

    Azrile Guest

    'A question for MrTact: Are you implying that the current ggs isn't predictable and in fact wasn't a sane move? *grins*'

    That is one of the points I was trying to make in my post. Every lead designer/producer we get, goes back and changes something that the former designer/producer just implemented. In most cases it is not an improvement, just different. I guess in the eyes of the new person, it is an improvement.....

    First there was anti-macro code with Power hour... then they got rid of PH and added GGS, now there are hints that GGS is getting booted. In all honestly, is GGS better then PH... not really in my mind... I didn't like the 'hour' part of PH because it forced players to train as soon as they logged in.. but as far as skill gains goes, it isn't much different then what we have now. GMing Magery, weapons, and most other skills are just as fast now as before.. Again, a lot of dev time goes into a system that adds no improvement to the game.. and here we go again.

    The other big one is SunSwords recent decision to go to more frequent publishes... Which is exactly the way it was around the time of uo:ren.. but then the producer said it was better to have less frequent large publishes becasue QA could focus on one thing at a time...so we tried that for awhile..

    The dev team should concentrate more on adding stuff, and less on 'putting their fingerprint' on the game. Don't waste dev time on something with marginal returns..... isn't that one of the things you always say when players offer ideas that you deem don't warrent the dev time?
     
  48. SirLynxx

    SirLynxx Guest

    I only made it half way down this thread befor i had to reply. ill try to finish it after work tho ..
    here is my thoughts. I see alot of people talking about how it was harder in the past (way past) to gain skills and get multi Gms. Well is anyone here taking into consideration that there wasnt skill locks?
    it wasnt that it was harder to get the skills it was just harder to KEEP the skills! if you dont belive me talk MRTact into setting up a TC without skill or stat locks for a weekend and play with it set yourself with a 7xGM and then go play for a couple hours. Ohh yea you also need to have the code in where you could learn from passing by someone... (I hated bards and Alchies back then!

    I Also think that the limits on stats should be removed totaly the time interverls and the limit on how much you can gain.

    as for skill gain please remember this is a game and shouldnt be work! it should take some time but not FOREVER to GM a skill i.e Taming and some of the other rough ones.
     
  49. Yablonski

    Yablonski Guest

    I think it should take a long time to GM any skill. We shouldn't see posts along the lines of "I GMed such and such in 10 hours and here's how you do it".

    Make GMing mean something like it used to. People would be more proud of their accomplishments.

    Edit: Putting aside the pride thing, it would keep things more challenging for people. What's the point of playing a game if you can have a powerful character in a matter of less than a week?
     
  50. Guest

    Guest Guest

    here we go again

    How much should I care about macroing prevention?
    You should not.

    Should I eliminate 8x8?
    Currently some skills are hard enough to raise as it is. 8X8 gives you the feeling that you are acomplishing something and you can see skill gain in progress.

    If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
    Predictable how ?, I mean if your a tamer and you tame long enough you will get a skill can. You can predict that if i tame for 9 hours i'll get atleast .1 skill gain. But no, if there were a more stable and reasonable method to gaining skill then you wouldn't need 8X8. But as long as some skills are movement based you will require it.

    How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill?
    Interesting. Taking into account new players/30 day trial players/Vet players I would suggest that the first 2 skills on each of your characters can be GM'ed in 40 hours of active play. After that it should take 1 week of real world time to GM a particular skill. In other words you would have to play UO for a total of 168 Hours using a particular skill in order to GM it.

    Should all skills be the same?
    Skills that do not use resources to raise should take longer simply because it costs nothing to raise them i.e. Hiding. Skills like taming/magery/etc...should take shorter times to raise as they use skills like healing as well as resources like reagents and armour which costs money to purchase. Also since some skills have jewelery in place to raise you then perhaps those skills should be able to be raised quicker then those skills where you cannot purchase jewelery to raise.

    - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need?
    A standard by which a person can raise those skills. If you say that you should fight hapries if your swords is at 60 to gain to 65 then it should get you to 65 according to whatever amount of time you have put in place to gain in that skill. If you say you can tame bulls at 90 to raise your skills in taming to 95 then it should raise you in the amount of time put in place, not by luck or skill gain runs.

    If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
    I know i use taming alot but it's a good base for me. When you try and tame somthing you have no chance of taming you are told. Likewise when you try perform a task that you will not gain skill in it should say "You have no chance of gaining *insert skill here* from this creature.

    I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?
    There is no such thing as a bad idea. Just not a well thought out idea. Seriously though i remember that i used to mine and cut wood with my warrior in the early days to get his strength up. In the process of course you would gain in skill. This probably should remain as part of the skill gains and not be seperated. The reason being that if you grant a stat gain every 15 minutes then there is no acomplishment in getting that. You could use that up to 50 for each stat then after that it would change and you wouldn't gain a stat after 15 miuntes once all 3 were over 50. Why don't you seperate the stats into monster groups. If you want to gain strength fight group X. The stronger the monster in group X the faster you will gain strength stat up to your daily limit. If you want to gain INT fight group Y, and so on. This way vet players feel challenged if they want to move some stats around, and younger players still have a chance at fighting the monsters at the low end of that group. It also guarantees reward for the work, the amount is the only thing that changes.

    I apologize in advance if i have repeated anyone else's posts....