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Sorry to go on about this subject but...

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by gramarye, Sep 3, 2009.

  1. gramarye

    gramarye Guest

    ...back to the Greater Dragon. First of all, thank you to all for tips and help with taming one of these. When looking for a good one, what do I look for? Hits and strength over other stats? Or higher initial skills? Basically what makes a really good GD. Second question is: On the hunter's guide it says that stats fall 50% (I think) after taming and that skills fall also. It then states that these can be trained back to within 90% of the original figure. Does this mean that STATS as well as skills can be trained back up? So, say, a wild drag with 1900 hits would fall to, what? About 950 after taming? Could that stat be trained back up with Greater dragons? Thanks again for taking the time to read this and for any response.
     
  2. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    Absolutely no problem, gramarye, that's what a forum is for. Most of the questions has been asked before, see:

    About locations here, about Stats and Skills here and about post-taming formula here. And these are only the newest. Use the 'search' option and you find tons of excellent informantions.

    What a real good pet is depends also to your playstyle. I prefer high Hitpoints, Strength and Wrestling because I mainly use it as a tank. Resists comes next, high phys. is crucial to me because almost every foe lauches phys. attacks (among others). The rest depends what I want to hunt.
     
  3. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    I forgot the stat question you asked: yes, you're right, the Hitpoints are halfed after taming. So pre-tame 1900 is post-tame 950. But be sure you lore it before it can blesses itself, which is common. Strength will be halfed too, it can not be trained up, as far as I known. Int the same. Dex can and will.
     
  4. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Strength cannot be trained up on a greater dragon. Once it is havlved from the initial taming, that's what you get.

    The dexterity will get halved when you tame it. You can train it's dex up to 125.

    The intelligence will not get halved when you tame it. It cannot be trained any higher.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  5. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    On the Stats you have to know that all stats from all pets can be trained to 125 when they are lower then 125.
     
  6. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Wonder who is gonna put enima on ignore this time..lol lol
    :danceb:
     
  7. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    You're rrrright! I should have phrased it more accurately. Thank you for the corrections. :)

    *edit: About Enigmamumblemumble, I feel pity for this poor guy. In some of the his last posts he started and finished with a disclaimer, that's funny. But contentwise, his posts are interesting (though typically contrary minded).
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    We all have our bad days and sometimes misunderstanding what others mean :)

    Real story : Player goes to check out other shards for arcane circles when they were first placed at Brit banks. On one of the shards, while standing on the circle trying to drag out the arcane circle icon, another player comes over to the centre of the arcane circle and says "Blast off!".

    Original person was really pissed! "How rude! Telling me to frag off! He must think he owns the bloody bank! This is such an unfriendly shard."

    When this was recounted to me later, I laughed and explained "No, he means blast off in a a good way. As in let's go! Otherwise he wouldn't have stood at the centre of the circle".
     
  9. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    The only stat that can be trained back up is Stamina/Dex.

    Looking for the Right Greater for you is not an easy formula.

    The Components

    Hit Points, Int (aka Manna), Dex (aka Stamina).

    Resists

    Skills.

    If your going to prefer a Good Caster Greater Dragon, then you want to focus on Hit Points, Int, Magery and the best Resists you can get.

    If your going to prefer a Good Tank Greater Dragon, then you want to focus on Hit Points, Dex, Wrestling, Tactics and the best Resists you can get.

    If you want both then merge the above (and yes as hard as it may seem to believe they do spawn)

    My personal preferences are:

    Tank > Caster

    HP >= 875 (Post Tame)
    Str >= 600 (Post Tame)

    Resist (in Order of preference)

    Phys >=80%
    Fire >=80%
    Energy >= 80%

    Cold/Poison *Shrug* The best I can get

    Skills (Pre-Tame for convenience) and in order of priority

    Wrestling >= 134
    Tacitcs >= 123

    Magery >= 123

    Resisting Spells as best as I can get

    In case it is not intuitively obvious, a Greater Dragon that does not meet one or more minimums is not considered for taming for myself, and of course, this being a generalization, the minimum's are soft if I feel one or more other components are great enough to offset the component that does not meet the minimum.

    An Example would be Phys Resist at 85% vs Wrestling at 133 No I would not take that trade off. Wrestling at 140 vs Phys Resist at 78% Yes I would take that Trade off every day of the week.

    Now then for priority's

    Skills > Resists > Stats.

    It may not help but hopefully it is a basis for you to determine a priority and list of minimum values that work best for you.
     
  10. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    You really don't need to consider the greater dragon's dexterity. It will always halve when tamed. This will result in it always being less than 125 once tamed. All greater dragons can be trained to 125 dex. So dexterity values are a wash when you compare two greater dragons.

    With respect to dexterity/stamina, the only thing you have to watchout for is the dragon being "broken" once tamed. In this case the dragon's maximum stamina does not equal it's maximum dexterity as it typically should (max stamina is less than max dexterity). If the dragon is "broken", it will not swing as fast (since swing speed is determined by stamina, not dex). It rarely occurs and if it does, it will be noticeable soon after the sucessful tame. Just lore the dragon and see if the max stamina & dex match up (give it a minute for any bless spell to wear off before you lore it). If you do get a "broken" dragon your options are:
    • live with it and bless your dragon to keep it's stamina above 120
    • get another dragon
    This is not really a big concern, as it rarely happens. I just wanted to let you know it can happen, since we are talking stats anyways.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  11. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    My preference when looking for most any tameable creature is resists come first. Resists are the core number that determine how much damage the pet can take. In the case of greater dragons I still look for solid resists first.

    Using a similar representation, my priorities are:
    Resists > Hit Points > Skills > Other Stats

    I use an excel spreadsheet to determine how good the dragon is. The spreadsheet allowed me to weight specifics (resists, hit points, etc..) to what I beleive is more important for a pet. The pet power calculator does not allow you to do this.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  12. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I agree that Dex is always going to end up being 125. I only listed it as a component (I was thinking generalized pets, and is certainly misleading in a specific context of the Greater Dragons).

    Just curious if you would participate in a simple excersise (and anyone else that wants to).

    Take three Categories, Stats, Resist, Skills. Now you have 100 points to spread across the 3 categories.

    Mine would be

    Skills - 35
    Resists - 34
    Stats - 31

    These could be used to calculate a specific set of weights for the complete package.

    Same for Stats, Hit Points, Strength, Int

    Hp - 48
    Str - 45
    Int - 7

    Same for Resists

    Phys - 33
    Fire - 32
    Cold - 5
    Poison - 5
    Energy - 25

    Same for Skills

    Wrestling - 45
    Tactics - 40
    Resist Spells - 4

    Magery - 10

    What it does is provide a better quantification of what is meant when Skills > Resists > Stats and helps define the acceptable softness when a specific component is compared to the total component list.
     
  13. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Gram, there's really no set method for rating greaters, as everyone weights their various properties differently (note the above debate). The only way to really become accustomed to rating greaters is to lore them over a long period of time. After a month or two of loring friends/acquaintances' greaters, you'll start to develop a palate.

    What shard are you on? If you're on Atlantic, I'm happy to help you with greater rating.
     
  14. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Well stated!! I did not develop my preferences overnight. It took months of taming and fighting with my pets to figure out what I thought was more valuable in a pet (dependant on the type of pet).

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  15. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    This sounds like a slippery slope, that would really need parametric statistics to really grasp the "best" approach. :wall:

    But, since there is no harm yet:

    For Greater Dragons:
    Resists - 50%
    Skills - 30%
    Stats - 20%

    Skills & Stats are roughly equivalent because I left hit points lumped in with the rest.

    *you see Statistics the Collector of Souls [Paragon] *
    :eek:
    *Kal Ort Por*

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  16. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    I've been loring dragons for a while and my preferences are still evolving.
     
  17. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    My preferences are too. In fact, I just tweaked my greater dragon ratings last week based on a discussion with my guildmates, after we hunted them for a few hours.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  18. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I do not treat the exercise as a decision making process, no statistics nothing.

    It is a means for an individual to more or less quantify their individual (group if group participation) preferences and give an understanding as to why the Total is what it is.

    It works best when honest objective values are given vs one guy saying 90% skills and another guy being angry with the first one saying oh yeah then I say stats is 90% etc. It is just a tool to allow one(s) to understand why...

    As in our case we can easily see why we will view things differently.

    Such that I could generalize and say you tend to want a superior defensive pet (the higher Resists value) and I want a good defense and a good offensive pet (the relatively close values).
     
  19. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    I don't think anyone's angry at you, pal - just disagreeing.

    I know you value alternative viewpoints. I also know that you try very not to resort to personal attacks when you disagree with someone (hence, your disclaimer). When we disagree, we're not attacking you, either.

    It's all good. :thumbsup:
     
  20. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    *Looks Puzzled* If that is to me, then I am not clear what your reading into anything I have posted that suggest anyone is angry with anyone.

    In the EXAMPLE I used people offsetting each other and the word angry (as I have seen in real life situations) but if that is what your going on .... then let me make it clear :) it is only an example nothing more.

    From an explanation perspective and to be honest, as in what you see is what you get, it would never occur to me to judge if someone is angry or not as they are just words on a screen and I see nothing in the way of person behind the screen emotes. Secondly it would never occur to me to give a rats rear end if some one is angry or not, at me or anyone else. I may tactically choose to NOT throw any incendiary substances on the fire, but that is a choice, not a reaction to some unknowable state of mind of some one.

    If anyone reacts to the "choice" I make in including a Disclaimer then they probably are who it is intended for, and that may be news to me as I may not even have known they were on a watch list. One might want to consider two scenario's,

    Case one: Joe This disclaimer is for you. Now this case is non constructive as it will without doubt be intended to throw an incendiary substance on the fire.

    Case two: Here is my disclaimer. Now this case can or can not be constructive as it does NOT single anyone out.

    You may want to consider the above when you see me put a disclaimer on a reply, even this one.

    A Hint: My Grandmother, when I was a little tadpole, told me this, "Sticks and Stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you." as an adult I have clarified this for my children to be "Sticks and Stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you, unless you give them the power to." One may want to think about why I would ever empower a series of words on a message board on my screen to have any impact on me personal (as in the form of statements about me personally). :thumbsup:

    Now lets hope the derailment of this thread (or any thread) by focusing on the individual will be kept to a ... dull roar.
     
  21. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Where did you got the spreadsheet from ?

    It is usefull for all pets in the game ?

    Perhaps Stratics can put it among the Utilities offered ?
     
  22. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    This example closely resembles our conversation - so closely that it seemed to me to mirror our conversation. Hence, my assumption.

    It seemed to me that you felt attacked. For your sake, I was trying to assure you, with utmost diplomacy, that no resentment was felt toward you. I did not gain anything by doing this - I did it because you've been ganged up on lately. In response, it seems I've been accused of "derailing" our conversation. This is probably accurate. Forgive my wrong assumption and my attempt at kindness.
     
  23. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    An attempt at gaining in humor and to gently point out that I have never seen any purpose in posting about the poster. So in short the derailing was not aimed at anyone.
     
  24. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    Oh no, not again...

    And I always thought that Tamers are the most patient players within UO. rolleyes:
     
  25. Scarab

    Scarab Guest

    stop trolling
     
  26. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    Me? Huh?
     
  27. Scarab

    Scarab Guest

    you are trolling. it is annoying. please stop
     
  28. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I reshuffled your questions to answer them more smoothly.
    Well, to be honest, the Pet Power Calculator is a good tool for this already. It weighs the pet's values as follows:
    * Resists = 65% of the score
    * Hit points = 25% of the score
    * Stats = 10% of the score, unless skills are entered, in which case stats = 5% and skills = 5%

    It is a great guide for tamers who have not already developed their own tastes, based on their experiences. I have seen several others post that they also have something similar (to the PPC) that they use for one reason or another.

    I created the spreadsheet in MS Excel on my own one night taming Cu Sidhes. I wanted to weight the Cu's values differently than the Pet Power Calculator did, so I created a spreadsheet to do so. I can massage the spreadsheet as I see fit. I will add tameables to the file when I need to. I have also used it to verify monster data for update submissions to the Hunter's Guide (though it was prior to Petra giving credit to the submitter :p). So to answer if it is useful for all pets, it can be only if I add them in.

    No matter what tool you use (be it the PPC, a spreadsheet, or a pad of paper) you are just looking for a combination of Resists, Stats, and Skills. Look at the Hunter's Guide for the pet's information. Get an idea of what the minimum values you want to shoot for are. Go find the pet. Try it out (rinse and repeat as necessary). A guildmate and I went through 20+ hell hounds (just counting the keepers, not the spawn we cycled through to find them) to figure out what worked well for a pack of them.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  29. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    Here here I've since changed my viewpoint from resists to now high wrestling and tactics unless physical resist is in the low end for greaters.
     
  30. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    If you don't already have a greater dragon, you might want to first get a "good enough" one. Greater dragons are good pets to use when trying to spawn other greater dragons. For a "good enough" one I recommend these minimums:
    Hit points: 1600 (pre-tame)
    Resists: 80/80/47*/50*/62*
    *these are the average values, they are not that important for hunting other greater dragons.
    Wrestling (pre-tame): 130.5
    Tactics, Resist, and Magery (pre-tame): 125.0 (the average values)

    With Vet, you can use this dragon to hunt other greaters without much problem to find the good one. This will also give you a benchmark to improve on. My guildmate uses a dragon very similar to this one (891hp, similar resists, and average skills) and has never had a problem with it fighting pretty much anything.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  31. Scarab

    Scarab Guest

    I don't think tactics are as important as strength to damage output. at least I think I read that somewhere recently

    when it comes to defensive capabilities, I wouldn't want to choose between resists, wrestling and high hp. of course hp is the first to hit the chopping block of those three, but once you get to taming GD's for a while you will eventually find a really good one. until then, keep upgrading incrementally. my point is that I don't think you should compromise resists for legendary wrestling
     
  32. gramarye

    gramarye Guest

    Phew! *Feels as though has started something* :)
    Thanks again for all the advice, ppl. I need to apologise for not searching hard enough to find the links posted by Nenime (not lazy, just didn't find them is all) but feel that I have gained enormously by posting here. From all that has been said, and because the answer to my question appears to me to be somewhat subjective, I feel that I'm just going to have to educate myself by loring/exploring GDs over time as suggested. If I'm to take anything from this discussion as a starting point on which to learn I guess it would be Enigma's point about barding difficulty. Seems a nice easy-to-understand attribute and a reasonable starting point. Thanks again for all the help and to everyone who took the time to read my post particularly to Syrus for your very generous offer. Unfortunately, I am on Europa (it's a nice shard, just unfortunate from the point of view of help from Syrus.)
     
  33. Ancient Sosarian

    Ancient Sosarian Journeyman
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    Hail Ciizens,

    This is not scientific, but I always seek the highest Barding difficulty on a pet. It seems to me if the pet is well rounded overall, its barding difficulty is highest.

    Any scholars care to enlighten me on the wisdom or fallacy of this approach?

    An SoS
     
  34. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Hiya. I'd say that barding difficult is a quick-an'-easy, if overly-simplistic, way to assess a greater dragon. That said, consider this:

    Dragon A - 100 wrestle, 120 magery
    Dragon B - 120 wrestle, 100 magery

    Both have the same skill intensities. Assuming both have identical stats/resists/skills otherwise, their barding difficulty may be very similar. However, Dragon B will greatly outperform dragon A, as high wrestle will make him more likely to hit and less likely to be hit.