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Speedhacking, Duping, UMing ~Cheating - they all need to go bye-bye asap

Discussion in 'UHall' started by AesSedai, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    We (the legitimate UO payers/players) all detest this unfair playing field.

    [dukarlo, this one's for you (just make a new thread about it rather than spam others :))]

    If cheating at current levels continue to persist,
    Then what good is pumping new blood into UO, by way of SA expansion & SA client, going to succeed in doing other than making more honest gamers more jaded?

    Ramp up the anti-cheating measures already!
    Newness is nothing, when compared to this.


    Discuss, please
    (Are you in-favor of a game, of the game called UO, being fairly played? Let the people know.)
    :)
     
  2. Katlene

    Katlene Guest

    right at this moment im watching a scripter go about his business while i wait for a gm. its been near 2 hours and no ones showed up.
    better gm service would help in the wipe out of illegalities
     
  3. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - Thx for the 'due diligence' regarding one of this game's shortcomings, Katlene :)
    Heh, I find myself repeating 'that' term lately.. But my point is that I am ever-impressed that there are still plenty of good people looking out for the well-being of our UO.

    To further get this thread rolling, here is a quote from a post that I made a few days ago, in a thread that was determined to be a little too harsh for UHall:
     
  4. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I paged on one a few days ago and waited...about 3-4 hours later one actually showed...not invis like but where he could be seen and snatched the guy.
     
  5. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    The level of unfair play now is still quite disturbing, and this is after 5 patches of constant exploit fixes and many many bans.

    There are still lingering issues such as the speedhacks, the client hacks, the BOD/Heartwood/Resource system scripting, and most of all lately, the dupers - the Atlantic economy being a prime example of dupers still running wild. I'll add a screenshot for the visual element, this has been the case every day for the past month.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    The cheaters, scriptors, and dupers tend to have the most accounts. Why would EA get rid of such a cash cow?
     
  7. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - Shanna, wait a few minutes for my edit, and I'll tell you why. :)

    edit:
    Initial statement:
    Reply:
     
  8. Pied Piper

    Pied Piper Adventurer
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    Yep...I know a guy on LS he has over 20 accounts
    5 castles 2towers and 3 keeps on LS alone....

    1 of his towers is in Bucs Den fel where the old mining cave exit is...
    Its funny too cuz the house is wat I call "a tree house"

    Its placed on top of trees and the steps are the only thing touching the ground...

    You can run underneath it...

    Theres another one a couple screens next to it placed the same way...
    Also in alot of the swamp areas I noticed there are houses placed in the frikin swamps...

    I have tried many times to place one in the swamps....
    Apparently theres sum kind of house placement cheat or there used to be...

    Also sumhow ppl can make the house sign words red...

    I just thought I'd share sum kool stuff for LS ppl to go check out in case they haven't seen none of those houses...
     
  9. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I think there are 2 solution (IMO) that must be applied for cheating:

    Substantially all items has an unique id, the duped item surely have the same id, so the solution is doing the same thing that the free server does.

    - Dupe check during trade: when you place an item in the vendor or you start the trade with someone else, the server must check if the items is duped and if so, istant delete it. This must happen for character transfer too.

    - Items cleaning at server startup. If there are duplicates id or invalid item the server must remove it. Maybe the startup will require more time but the servers will be much much clean, and the duping will be completely unusefull.

    The big problem is that EA servers is a bit complex than the free server and the items database is splitted in more than 1 single server... so this kind of solutions may require a lot of work and the risks are huge... a bug in this kind of system and we back in the stone ages :D
     
  10. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    this could work for some items like duped heartwood kits and rares/event items, but for runic hammers and runic kits it won't work, dupers don't dupe the hammer or kit itself, they duped the filled large bod and when that is handed in to an npc it gets a new ID
     
  11. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    You could solve this case by case for several pricey (like to be duped items), which could be modified to track source item id. After such modification you can find even such duplicates. Problem is I do not know how much work it really is, or if such solution is cost effective. It depends on too much things like how are item attribues stored in item database and so on.

    Pavel VeselĂ˝
     
  12. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    Considering that this is such a huge issue i think they should have one team member (or 2) dedicated to it. This way there is constantly someone watching and taking action.
     
  13. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    A lot of people have been making this argument. Now im no programmer but the solution seems pretty simple to me. Give the BODs an ID number... lets say bod123456789. Then when that BOD is filled, give the reward an ID number based on the BOD that was filled... ie. valham.bod123456789. As this is generated it can either do a search ingame, which seems like it would take a while, or compare to a rewards list over the last month, 6 months or year, or whatever. So when a reward is generated, the ID goes into a database, then any new rewads people try to generate using the duped BOD are referenced to an already existing ID number, and poof, item deleted/duper thrown in jail, or whatever the devs want to have happen.
    Again, im no master programmer, but a system like this seems pretty logical and simple. This could also work for Artifact drops and all kinda of other items. If there are ever two identical ID numbers, have both deleted. This way even if ID#s only stayed on the list for a year, the duper could only get one duped item a year. Talk about a huge improvement at the very least. Now I know enough to know that nothing is ever "that simple", but thought I would at least put the concept out there. Any programers out there wanna tell me if this is as good a system as i think it is, or am I out in the dark?
     
  14. lazybones

    lazybones Guest

    You could of course give the scripters away to move massive amounts of ingots and logs around, quickly and easy by giving them commodity boxes.

    I hope they use these new boxes to track the scripters and ban them, but i don't think they will ever do anything about the scripting as these people run to many accounts.
     
  15. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    It's not just that they run so many accounts it's how hard it is to put in changes that will honestly work. I've said it before the people who write the script programs, though not necessarily the scripts, are good at what they do, as soon as a publish comes or a patch they simply adapt their programs to follow suit. It's like Jeremy said running and running to keep in place. When and If the program for Counselors and what not returns like they mentioned they want to do at the past town hall this should have a dramatic impact on scripting and unattended macroing. It would help with the issue of someone getting reported and 6 hours later after they've logged off a GM tries to check on them. Once the Smurfs are back on patrol, they can come verify if someone is actually there like the GM's attempt to now and flag the account, if they aren't allowed to jail directly, and either turn it over to someone who can jail them or send in the report with their logs for review for a direct banning instead of someone getting away with it as often as they do. That's largely part of the reason Scripting wasn't as big an issue 6-7 years ago right after Trammel as it is now, there were more people on the alert that could actually do something about it.
     
  16. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    *sigh*

    How many times?

    Do away with UOA

    Its the "gateway" drug for UO. It allows one to "free their mind" The KR UI as well.. just makes the macrows a part of the game. Its all these shortcuts from people complaining about having to click their mouse that leads to the cheating.

    They simply set up a progie that uses UOA, the macrows, or a combination of both, and *tada* you have your unattended ten accounts playing, scripting, mining and what have you; all the while the 400lb user is eating cheetos, staring at his cat, and playing WoW on another computer.

    And when the "Do away with UOA" campaign comes about, everyone that complains about cheating and scripting now complains that they need UOA to play the game.. that they dont want to do repetative tasks.. double-clicking on somthing.. No one "needs" it, UOA just makes it "easier".. which in turn leads you back to the "people complaining about having to click their mouse."

    Oh trust me, i totally agree that
    So lets stop beating around the bush, and do somthing about it. Re-learn to play this game without UOA..

    And no one will.
     
  17. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Not quite..
    Every one of those val hammers for sale have their own Unique ID. You can test it for yourself if you have UOAssist.

    Every item has a Unique ID. Even a val hammer that is duped, has a different ID than the dupes made from it.

    When you "dupe" something without the server generating a new ID, it is only a ghost item. You cannot interract with it at all, since the server assumes any such requests for action are refereing to the Original, based on the ID. Such items are only visible to Your client since the server only informs other clients of the 1 instance it recognizes for that ID, and when you relog the ghost item is gone (again since the server only acknowledges the 1 instance of the ID, so it only tells your client of That instance existing)

    If you have a pile of 500 ore, and take 1 off, the pile still has the same ID, but a new ID is given to the 1 you took off. You could take 1 at a time from the pile and end up with 500 piles, each having their own ID.

    The ID is what the server uses to determine What you are attempting to use, pick up, drop, drag around, etc. There is no physical representation of the items, just their IDs.


    Each time an ID is created, it is unique. But therein lies the simplicity of solving ALL potential to dupe. If they would take a few minutes to add a Validity check to the routine assigning Item IDs there would no longer be any posability to dupe.

    The bulk of such a fix would be finding the VALID actions that cause an item to get an ID. Quests, monster loot, crafting, and extracting (such as taking a potion from a keg or mining).

    With the list of VALID requests, they could simply have it check to see if one of those were the action Requesting an ID, and ignore any others.

    Viola! No more duping, ever.

    Even if they don't know much about the game, and take all of 2 or 3 hours to figure out Every Valid requestor for IDs, the actual fix would still take less than 4 hours to impliment. For one of them actually familiar with the game, 2 hours tops.
     
  18. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    i agree cheating and dupes and speed hacking do need to go bye bye i know the majority of players like myself do not cheat but a small handful of greedy, rotten, inconsiderate players ruin the game for us good and decent players so maybe there should be a patch to make uo incompatable with all 3rd party non licended 3rd party programs through patches and they should shut down those sites and if they make it compatable again with uo make another patch to make it incompatable and so on and so on it would help at least.
     
  19. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    OoOOO come on the scripters arn't hurting anyone granted they can GM any skill in a day and AFK get tons and tons of resources but they are NOT the biggest problem true hackers are the people dupin, using exploits, using special hacks to make them move faster, or even the new one I have been seein someone actually messing with the client so that they can walk under or above different types of objects - Gravestones, Trees, Even E-Fields, I have also seen someone walk UNDER a house, now with that information a Dev should be able to stop the people from walking UNDER OR ABOVE things.
     
  20. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Ok what are the people doing with the resources, they get? The Gold they Farm? some, not all are buying up items like Val Hammers, Verite Hammers, Certain Event items, ect. to Dupe. One goes hand in hand, even if not all of them are using Scripts to get the gold for this reason it's enough of a reason to continue slamming down the ban hammer on them even if the TOS saying they are illegal wasn't enough of a reason.
     
  21. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    I'm not sure why am I about to do this...
     
  22. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Halister Marner, it looks like your picture could very well be a true case of cheating.

    A proactive GM should be looking into this.
     
  23. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Pied Piper, I do not see anything that was not possible by way of previous legal publishes.
    ~this stuff was not due to cheating as far as I'm aware.
    I know it was possible to be able to bizarrely place some houses (heck you used to be able to stack a house on top of a castle...),and I actually had orange writing on one of my house signs before I sold it, as it was perfectly legal, at one time in the past, to do such a thing (until it was nearly instantly abused).
     
  24. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Pinco, I believe there are already several dupe checks, like you are referring to, in place. I know when Wilki was the Community dude (maybe when he was a programmer?), he mentioned that they had put more of these type of dupe checks in place, specifically regarding character transfers... But that is just what I recall having read.
     
  25. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Redxpanda, I have been pleading for such a solution, publicly and privately, ever since a dude named SunSword was the big man running the show for our UO.
    (I actually believe this might be happening these days, although I have no confirmation of this long-long-term wish I've had, and many of us have been in agreement with the sentiment over the years.)
     
  26. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Endrik Siege, that would be a great solution. But how would it impact playability? Would it make be too much for the servers to handle? Would it greatly impact gameplay by-way-of slowing the entire system down? Or would it require some silent programming that is not apparent to the public and therefore not as popular as producing new content might be considered to be? Lots of potential limitations, I reckon.
     
  27. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    lazybones,

    :)

    Aye, I agree & fully.

    edit: Oops, no I don't fully agree, because I believe they do not want cheaters & that they do want legitimate players. I felt the sarcastic vibe, and was agreeing with that... but I disagree with the pessimistic vibe regarding your thoughts towards EA enjoying the income of cheaters.
     
  28. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Nexus, from what I have noticed, they said that the smurfs of old were over; but they said they were looking to try to bring back EMs (event moderators). Although I do agree that the more people looking out for UO and helping to ensure that the GMs are able to work more-efficiently, the better, imho; whether that be by more of us assisting, or them having tools / or better ones, or by them GMs having more precise jobs (~ as in what was mentioned above ~ some focused solely on removing the plague of cheating that will and has invaded every successful game).
     
  29. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Lime Pepsi, removing AOU will not improve things much.
    Some cheaters piggyback off of UOA, but many others have moved quite beyond that these days.
    Actually, I think that providing a more fair playing field by way of introducing some more automated tasks, such as in KR, is a good method of leveling things out to make it a more-equal game for those that refuse to cheat.
    The only problem with that, I think (this is all what I think when I'm posting people...!), is that there is not enough proactive monitoring of cheaters going on to dissuade people from breaking the rules; and as I said earlier, I hope (heck, I believe) that tide is changing.
     
  30. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Eslake, how reasonable do you feel that solution would be? Will it impact gameplay, server loads, and such? Would it require upgraded hardware in order to offset the increased computational demands? I mean it sounds like a grand solution, so why do you think it hasn't been implemented (especially when considering the quote from Jeremy that I noted in the beginning of this thread)?
     
  31. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Lore Master, that is something I have always wondered about myself. Why don't they just put in a tiny little patch update weekly, heck daily, since it seems to corrupt the 3rd party proggies? Granted, some are aware of how to update it themselves, but what about the other 85% of the drones that are relying on illegal programs in order to play? The only excuse I can make is that it also affects UOA players that paid to have an officially accepted 3rd party program..
     
  32. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Vyal, hopefully these Z axis issues will be dealt with soon.
     
  33. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    Nexus: exactly. Cheating is cheating. If it were perfectly harmless then it would not be cheating ~ then it would not be against the rules ~ then it would not be considered to be cheating.
     
  34. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    I agree totally. What new player is going to want to play a game riddled with cheats/hacks/exploits unless they intend on doing those things as well?

    And to all the people who keep mentioning that there is a "quick" or "easy" fix for duping or some other exploit, it stands to reason that if it was so simple of a change to do, then it would have been implemented by now.

    If the devs would put all expansions and brand new clients on hold and just focus on fixing the 2D client and other bugs, I would feel a lot better about the game's future. Put everything but live event content on hold, and take a year to rewrite the 2D client from the ground up.

    Clean up the mess of the 10 year old spaghetti code, implement the recent advances and new ideas of online game security, and make the 2D client much more receptive for whatever 3D clients they wish to release in the future. And after the new 2D client has been tested and introduced, phase out the old 2D completely.

    No online game is ever going to be 100% secure, but at the present time UO is one of the least secure games around. Seems silly to spend all that time on a new client and content when there won't be many legit players left to experience it by the time it is introduced.
     
  35. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    =) Your number three who guessed my name correctly.. Gotta fight with Connor for the cookie though.. might have eaten it already ;).

    Punkbuster? Hmm how about a shadow implemation of punkbuster?
     
  36. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    As long as EA allows items and gold to be sold for real life money, there will be no level playing field in this game. Those that choose to spend real money can have all of the best weapons and armor in the game while those that don't may or may not be able to get them. Even without duping or any of the other things you are complaining about, this will always be the case.

    As for duping itself, yes, I am completely opposed to it. Speedhacking? Yes, totally opposed. Unattended macro'ing? Not so much. But that's my personal opinion. Scripting, while being able to be used for negative effects certainly (gold and item farming by people that then turn around and sell those items for real life money for one) are also a way to take a lot of the tedious tasks away so that people can better enjoy the game itself.

    To me, there is a major difference between the person that scripts or dupes to get tons of gold or items to sell for cash and the person that uses a script to help them GM poisoning. Have you ever done poisoning to GM? Its incredibly boring. Boring enough, in fact, to drive people away from the game because of how negatively it impacts the enjoyment level of the person playing. Sure, they could just not have poisoning. But that also takes away a certain amount of enjoyment from those that want to use that playstyle. Don't even get me started on how dull taming is to 120. Taming and releasing the same pets that you don't ever intended on using in the game beyond as a leveling aid is just plain dull. Heartwood quests? Click a questgiver several times until the quest you want comes up, then click the make last item over and over until you have the requested amount of items, then click each item over and over marking it as a quest item, rinse and repeat. They couldn't have come up with a less boredom inducing and carpal tunnel producing way to do things like that? Guess not, so other people did.

    A perfect example of this in action is UOA. When it first started it wasn't an 'official approved' program. It gave people that bought it, with real money of course, a little bit of an advantage over those that didn't. This was before the bandage self macro was added to the game. So, for one, those with UOA could hit one button to bandage themselves while those without had to keep their packs open, double click the bandage, then target themselves in order to heal. Potions were the same way. As were the arming/disarming macro's that UOA provided that the devs apparently either couldn't do at the time or didn't think of doing at the time. Whichever it was, someone else came in and added something to make this game more enjoyable for those that chose it.

    Bottom line is, UO has a design that contains many flaws in regards to how things are done. If someone is smart enough to create something to correct those flaws, is that so bad? Or unfair? Not really.
     
  37. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    As is the case in the real world, rules change. What is/was considered cheating yesterday might be 'approved' tomorrow. Again, that isn't to say that I condone things like duping or speedhacking in the least. I find them both wrong and against the entire spirit this game was orginally made under.
     
  38. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    A 300lb man standing on bathroom scales is handed a cup of coffee.
    Does he weigh more? Yes.
    Does the change in weight make any real difference? No.
    The difference in weight in the analogy is More than the increase in workload on the servers by adding a check to validate ID requests.

    There are only a few actions that validly request new item IDs.
    >Crafting-has imposed delays so it is uneffected.
    >Gathering Resources-has imposed delays so it is uneffected.
    >Quests-Generate only a small number of items at a time, so is unnoticable.
    >NPC restock-Already has a delay, so it is uneffected.
    >Extracting/Seperating-Already (must wait to perform) delayed, so is uneffected.
    >NPC/Monsters Spawning-Spawn phase only produces a set of appropriate clothing and monster-specific loots such as power crystals, so it wouldn't be noticed.
    >NPC/Monster Death-This is the only instance where a player could ever see the change. On creatures with large numbers of items generating as loot, such as with peerless, the loot would still be appearing on the corpse(s) for a few seconds after the kill. And if you ever hunted one solo or in a small group, you can already see this happen.

    These are the only valid reasons for the server to generate an Item ID (other than shard x-fers, which are handled completely outside of normal gameplay).
    Having the server test each new item ID request to be sure it was one of these is as minor an increase in workload as nearly any change they could make.


    As to why it hasn't been implimented - your guess is as good as mine. It is a very simple fix to a very serious problem.

    The way they handle duping is like fighting a shark by pulling out its teeth one at a time, rather than just killing the thing or getting out of the water.
     
  39. Wallenstein

    Wallenstein Guest

    I had a similar experience a few weeks ago. Someone was blatantly macroing right in the Britain bank on Great Lakes at 8am EST. I paged a GM about it using the Physical Harassment option and waited for over three hours without a single response. I was at number 6 in the queue from 8AM until well past 11AM.

    The player eventually stopped macroing and wandered away, and I never received a single response to this day. I have no clue what happened to my page, but the other player is still playing.. and still macroing while away from keyboard.
     
  40. Radun

    Radun Guest

    i want to be able to do what i find fun in the game, and use the gold i earn to buy the high end equipment needed to improve and progress my characters... the playstyle of most players is to sell what ever they get from playing the game to buy whatever they need to improve their characters.
    the stats of illegal equipment are completely within the range that the game allows, so there's no way to tell the difference between a piece made from a dupe runic vs a legal runic. the only thing that tips anyone off that something fishy is going on is the increased availability of top-end gear and runics, in quantity greater than the game allows under normal conditions...
    with all the illegal stuff floating around in the market among the legal stuff, and no way to tell the difference, avoiding ending up with any of the illegal gear means completely abstaining from buying anything.
    game over man! game over!

     
  41. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    While I agree that a lot of the game mechanics are frustratingly monotonous, it is never in the spirit of the game for the players to take matters into their own hands.

    The main reason is because of the subjectivity involved in doing such a thing. Where do you draw a line between acceptable and unacceptable amounts of vigilantism? You may feel that it's okay to bend the rules to raise your own skills or gather your own resources. But someone else could make a case that certain items are too difficult to get and use that to justify duping.

    I know it's a cliche, but the rules are there for a reason. If you feel that the rules or game mechanics are unfair in some way, petition the devs to make changes. And if you have doubts about whether your ideas will be seriously considered, then it might be time to reevaluate your choice in online gaming. If you don't feel a company is committed to producing a fair and enjoyable product, why would you continue funding their practices?
     
  42. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    I disagree about the spirit of the game. UOA was something created by a player to improve how UO could be played. Now they are talking about it being integrated into UO itself. So obviously UO saw the benefit of this 'not in the spirit of UO' tool enough to consider adding it to the game. Remember, early on it wasn't even an 'approved' tool.


    The same could be said about KR vs 2D. Its not fair to 2D players that KR players can use a better function for crafting than 2d players. So 2d players are forced to suffer through carpal tunnel to have a chance for the same things that KR players get much easier.

    As for if my ideas are seriously considered, thats not an issue for me. I have never once paged a GM on someone for manually raising their skills instead of using a UOA macro. Nor have I paged on someone that I knew used real money to buy the gold that they used to buy that 120 magery scroll for so much which caused the economy to gradual increase the cost of those scrolls. I play the game for me and let others play it for themselves. Its not my place to go around and seek out people doing things that I don't agree with with the intent to get them in trouble. Guess I am more easy going and accepting of others that some people.

    Yes, rules are there for a reason. But, as has been stated before, not all rules that are there for a reason should be there. Nor is every reason a good one. Men only voting was a rule for a long long time in the US. Did that make that rule right? No. Some people agreed with the rule though. And some didn't. Who was right? That depends on your point of view I imagine.

    The bottom line again is, until the Devs come up with a way to both improve the way things are done in game AND cut down on the benefits of buying items for real money and/or duping and/or macro'ing, people will always find ways the improve them themselves. Some may not approve. But, then again, some didn't and still don't approve of others using UOA. Or even KR. Or 2D. Where do you draw the line in regards to what is 'allowed' and what isn't? Do we use your viewpoint or mine? Do we use the player that is smart enough to script something to cut down his risks of carpal tunnel or the player that doesn't mind the tedious click click click that is today's UO?

    UO hasn't been able to stop certain activities in the entire history of the game. They may fix today's dupe, but tomorrow will find another one. They may fix today's *insert name of unapproved tool here* but tomorrow will find another one. Its the nature of the world. Apple releases Itunes. Users find flaws in Itunes. Users create alternatives to Itunes. Apple improves Itunes to cut down on previous flaws. Users find more flaws in Itunes, etc... In this age of technology, I don't think you are ever going to stop that from happening 100%. Nor do I really think you should. UOA forced UO devs to improve UO. Good. Macro tools force UO devs to improve UO. Good.
     
  43. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    Back in the day, 3rd party apps were allowed to be created and submitted to be approved by the UO staff, so they were certainly in the spirit of the game back then. Only a couple features (mainly unattended macroing) were asked to be removed before UOA was approved. A bigger reason why UOA took so long to be approved was because of legal issues with the application process:
    UOA news history

    We're not talking about the forced oppression of a large part of society here. You voluntarily agree to pay to access EA's servers and to follow all of their rules.

    And it certainly isn't for the advancement of society that people are breaking the UO rules. It's just a few people with low ethical standards looking to take the easy way out in a virtual game.

    The line is very clearly drawn in the terms of service and the rules of conduct. If you don't approve of where the line is drawn, you can petition to have it moved or even stop playing the game altogether. But it certainly doesn't give you the right (from a game standpoint) to step over it on your own, regardless of how creative or smart or time-saving your methods are.

    Just because EA can't stop bad things from happening 100% of the time doesn't mean they should put less than 100% effort into preventing them. There are certainly steps that can be taken to effectively eliminate the rampant cheating in game.

    And what precedent are you setting if you start allowing a minority of players to steer the development of the game through exploits and game manipulation because they are too lazy to play the game as intended? Pretty soon every game would look like Progress Quest. And where's the fun in that?
     
  44. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Consider the possibility of multiple keys, and that most people think there's only one :D

    Eg object.handle_address and object.sn

    The methods you suggested does actually stop duping. But it might take a while, coz there are more scenarios that generates items, and some of them they have to think about. eg Abusing server backups - aka black holing.

    Scenario - How to ensure that you don't lose stuff if your sub-server crashes, (you have already given your hard-earned crimson to your guildy before the subserver crashed. Guildy recalled to another subserver before the crash to bank the crimson.)
     
  45. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    The main problem is several different 3rd party proggie actually, and not UOA. Even if you stopped all the existing ones, someone else will come out with another 3rd party program.

    I think a timer added to the UO client to alert GMs might be better solution.

    *edit* This is in reference to unattended macroing.
     
  46. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Objects do have multiple "keys" as you call them. (I call them tags)
    The Item ID is the unique address that the server uses to determine any actions the client is taking on/with them.

    If I understand correctly, you are suggesting they could use an additional tag/key to identify items, so that subsequent dupes of the item would be identifiable.
    That would work in the short term, a manually run system-wide script to add a unique tag to each existing item so that future dupes of them would be trackable, but in the long term it ends up where we are now.

    To create a whole new routine simply to append the extra tag on all future items introduced would actually be far more work than simply correcting the loophole in the ID generator that allows duping in the first place. ;)

    As to recovering from backup, such items are not assigned new IDs.
    I can tell you from experience that recovered backups restore the pre-existing IDs for items.

    The only downside to adding a validity check to the ID generator is time, and assuming the servers are running on any processor faster than a P1, it would rarely be noticable at all by the players.


    To Scripting...
    They know that the program used by probably 90% of the scripters is crippled every time they patch. The nature and size of the patch is irrelevant. They could disable it by adding a random movement of a static barrel in the Void with each daily maintenance, but they chose not to.

    2D vs KR is irrelevant for scripting. Eliminating 2D will just cause those providing/maintaining the script program will simply rewrite it to work in KR.

    There are methods to eliminate it too, but they are far more involved than the simple fix to duping loopholes. And no, Punkbuster will never work. It is a security nightmare all its own. ;)

    Until they have the time to dig in and make the necessary changes to block scripters, they need to start taking a stance against them in-game.

    There are scripters on LS who have been running the same script to mine the same marked locations for over 2 years now. They have been paged on literally thousands of times, at all hours of the day and night each day of every week, and yet they are still at it.
    Meanwhile if you page on someone who has a URL in their paperdoll, a GM responds quickly and the player is suspended or banned.

    If that does not clearly show they have no intention of eliminating scripters, nothing would.
     
  47. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, I meant keys as in an attribute that identifies the item, such as the address of the item in the index and the serial number.

    Though I am not suggesting that they add it, actually I suspect they already have this...But yes, running a script to search for duped items is only a reactive move, if they can nip it in the bud, it'll save alot of work.

    The daily changing of a static item is a very interesting idea! They can't use the same item though, or it will quickly be figured out and just be ignored. Also, there'll be a patch required to update the client daily. Might be too much overheads to consider.

    And as you said, Punkbuster will be really another set of nightmares. That is, if they haven't already coded some form of 3rd party detection routine into the UO client...

    Also, I totally agree with your views that looking at it from a 2D or KR client angle is non-cosequential in this arguement. New 3rd party programs will be developed once the old ones stop working.

    I still can't think of a solution that will also address the black-hole abuse though. Let me clarify my scenario:

    1) Adam has a crimson in his pack and is waiting to trade it to Eve at the Luna bank for an orny
    2) Server state is backed up
    3) Adam passes his crimson to Eve in exchange for an orny
    4) Adam then recalls to Britain
    5) Britain's subserver crashes and Adam black holes
    6) When Adam logs back in, his status and items will be as of the backup in step 2
    7) Adam still has his Crimson but no orny
    8) Eve also has her Crimson but no orny
    9) Both Adam and Eve can interact with their own Crimsons normally. When either drags their Crimson, the other's doesn't dissappear. When Adam dyes his Crimson orange, Eve's crimson doesn't turn orange automatically
    10) So even if the S/N or ID is the same, each now has a different address somehow

    In this case, how should they block the creation of Adam's crimson in step 6? Remember that Adam have not recieved the orny in step 3.

    a) If the server finds that a crimson with the same ID already exists (in Eve's pack), and blocks Adam from getting back his crimson when he logs back in, he will be down 1 crimson due to a sub-server crash. Not acceptable.

    b) If the server allows Adam to create the crimson, but takes away Eve's, then Eve will be down 1 crimson (she has already given her orny to Adam). Not acceptable either.

    c) Give Adam back his crimson, give Eve back her orny, looks fair, but a nightmare to trace all the transaction that the players have made. What if Eve had sold the crimson in an auction? Caine bought it, and give it to his wife Lilith as a wedding aniversary gift. Meanwhile Eve has paid Lucifer the auctioneer 5% of the transtion costs, then bought a HoM from Gabriel. Even if everything was reversed out correctly, Lucifer lost his 5% commision. And he had paid the auction house 1 mil to book the auction house. Have a GM create gold to reimburse Lucifer? What if Lucifer lied about it and says that his commission is actually 50%. So a GM will need to check the logs...

    d) Full server revert to previous day's maintenance cycle backup because Adam or Eve will lose a crimson. Causing all players on that shard to lose whatever they got during that day. Definitely not acceptable.

    e) Allow both Adam and Eve to own the crimson. Looks like the best compromise so far. But wait, we now have duped crimsons...Right ok, maybe they'll let it slide if you have a couple of duped items. If they see that you own tons of duped stuff however, they'll start cracking down hard. Then we start a new thread on another round of bannings...
     
  48. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    :)

    a conundrum, to be sure.
    So devoid of a perfect solution;
    mayhaps we solely strive to employ a better one?
    (I am enjoying the discourse ;))
    (I am hoping to hear of more potential ways to deter this situation)

    (I think the continuous updating of UO might have been refuted at one time, maybe by a MrTact? even; but I can only guess at why that might have been, as I cannot simply research Stratics' history these days; I think it had something to do with these illegal applications merely adapting, and automating daily checks, in order to allow their illicit programs to continuously function. But then again, if they wanted to do that, then why haven't I heard anything about them already doing so..? I want to stress that I am not positive about that re:Tact, as it is just a stray memory that may have been none but a long-lived wish. And, I want to stress that it is something that I too have thought they should have been doing in attempt to curb the cheating that has been hampering UO's true potential. I would dearly love to hear some clarification from the anti-cheating EA unit as to why that would not be a feasible partial-solution to this uber-hindrance of UO's potential.)
     
  49. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Wouldn't giving each individual item a unique ID at it's creation and, a Date/Time Tag for when it was created work. When the server boots up either after a crash or maintenance, it has to load the items existing in the world anyways...Programs load data one line of data at a time so the server is in essence reading the list anyways. When the server saves does it verify the data integrity to insure there isn't a corrupt save?, if not why not? What are the odds of 2 people getting a Crimmy or Orny or Val hammer at the exact same instance down to the 100th of a second? If there is a save verifying process it's basically pouring over these lists...if there was a means done to catch duplicates at that point then Dupes could be found and deleted shortly after creation. Now here's the kicker, you know who has possession of the original, you know who if not the same person has the duplicate, because items are tied to the account in possession of them either in the bank box, or pack or they are in a house owned by who ever giving the account info, unless it changed hands right after the dupe occurred there's minimal risk to innocents. Who Dupes 20 Val Runic hammers and find a buyer for them withing seconds, not many I'd think something that expensive would take a bit to sell, maybe not long but I'm sure most likely time for the next periodic save would pass. How long do the same Crimsons stay on vendors? If things could be set up to use what I mentioned above Accounts could be flagged by the system and a separated file generated to list by account and shard and the mismatches from the save log. See the same account popping up on multiple shards and you've got strong evidence of foul play, See the same Account show up on numerous reports you've got Strong evidence, with several of the same item, one even one shard what are the odds they got 15 val hammers that were created at the exact same moment?. How long would it take for a couple of GM's to check through multiple accounts? They can access your house, bank and pack without you knowing...How hard would it be to confirm that they are duping knowingly like that?

    If they develop a system to help them keep on it, without all the leg work and people manually pouring over logs, even if it's a separate program to read the saves and generating the reports then that makes removal of and banning of dupes and dupers much faster. If done right then you don't have to worry about Adam, Eve, Cain, and Lucifer having a twisted trade triangle, The items can be found and removed quickly...matter of fact a system to do that automatically could be put in place and a Pop-up Window in game to tell the person what was deleted and why when it happens that stays up until manually closed without having to Ban anyone. Sooner or later the Dupers would have to give up, though repeat offenses should still be looked into.
     
  50. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - I happen to like that Harlequin mentioned Lilith :blushing:

    Sorry, I'd wanted to mention that in my last post.
    Don't mind me & I do feel bad about going ~OT in this thread.

    How great would it be if EA did not have to ban anyone for duping ( and / or other forms of cheating) because they had checks and balances put into place that prevented and / or severely discouraged people from cheaing in the first place? So great, hehe. So great that it might behoove them to do as much towards that, before they do the whole SA expansion / client thing; I reckon.

    I do want to hear everyone's thoughts toward regulating the cheating in UO; hopefully we can band together and help improve it.