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Spell focusing sash + Slayer Spellbook = Less damage per cast

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Victoria Navarre, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. I have noticed that after getting the new invasion sash,that I do upwards of 100 hp less damage per spell against my targets when I have the proper slayer spellbook equiped than when I do not have the sash on. Is this intended?
     
  2. sirion

    sirion Seasoned Veteran
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    I just went testing and confirmed your findings. OMG = =|||

    *removes sash*
     
  3. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I was under the impression that after the 10th spell you should be doing more damage for a cycle and then it restarts. Are these things only good for the top end stuff or are they anygood at all?
     
  4. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Agreed you should do less damage for the first 4-5 hits then do 20% more damage on hits 6-10. Not sure if they are any good at all Picus, I would say "no" but if the damage decrease is only pvm related, then could be of "some" use when fighting higher end stuff? Also a test that would nee to be considered is the damage lowered per hit or per monster fighting? Can you hit 5 lower end monsters and then cast on a 6th and have the 20% damage in affect? If so could still be of "some" use.
     
  5. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    A dev has commented on this in another thread. You start of with -20% less damage, each subsequent hit raises the dame until it hits +20% damage. It stays at +20% damage for 5 more spells, then goes back down to -20% again and the cycle repeats.

    So, start off with smaller spells, once you get to the +20%, use the bigger spells.

    The sash is best used against bosses.
     
  6. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Yes but I did not notice him mentioning about the things I asked specifically. Does the damage cycle reset for each monster you are attacking? Or can you build it up on killing 5 monsters and then have the damage "up" for the next 5 casts? Also is it pvm reliant? IE do you do -20% damage in pvp?
     
  7. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Some tests results...

    Once you switch target, you go back down to damage penalty i.e "step 1".

    The damage penalty is much bigger than -20% btw, it's more like -50%, -35%, -20%, -10%, -5%, No Bonus/No Penalty and from the no panalty point your next 10 spells will gradually gain in potency and finally reach +20% (35 SDI), and once you hit the max bonus (which is 35 SDI) you will have 4 more spells doing damage at 35 SDI level, then it goes back down to -50% level.

    And some facts...
    The damage is not PvM reliant, and works in PvP.

    The DPS is much better if you know wtf you are casting.

    You can magic arrow/harm and build up what I call "focus steps", and only cast bigger spells at from step 6 thru step 20. (This further increase your DPS and you will have massive burst damage if again you know wtf you are doing).

    If spell focusing is working correctly, use the last 10 steps on Word of Death, and if you (refering to people who saying sash is not worth is because they cant have the 20% bonus given to them on silver platter with zero drawback) are still saying Sash isnt worth a damn, you are not playing your character right. Learn to play it first!
     
  8. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Thank you for taking the time to test it. I up till this point do not have a sash, so was not able to myself. So its 16 spells and then 4 at 20% increase.
     
  9. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    The levels look like this
    -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10(peak) 10 10 10 10 10
     
  10. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Thanks for replying...

    Just double checking... since your scale 10 means 20% bonus damage so in reality it goes like this...

    -10% -8% -6% -4% -2% 0 +2% +4% ... +20%

    Correct?

    Because when I test it the first a few spell damage seems to do a lot less damage than -10%

    I just wanted to make sure. Thank you.
    If what you said is working correctly, you will get a good amount of sustained AND burst dps.

    That's 18% more TOTAL damage done over the course of 20 spells assuming you are casting the same spell and they always do the same amount of damage to the same target.

    Which amazes me how many people still complained about it.
     
  11. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    I'm no expert, but aren't you losing damage by casting magic arrows or some garbage half the time to build up "steps"?
     
  12. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Actually its
    Weapons Focus
    (- 50) Initial hit on new mob instead of -40
    -40 - 32 -24 -16 -8 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 20 20 20 20 20
    (Total)
    -120 %(or 130% counting initial hit) / +210%



    Spells Focus
    -30 -24 -18 -12 -6 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 20 20 20 20 20
    (Total)
    - 90% / +210%


    (Hoping I did my math right)
    So assuming you're using the same spell every time and the weapon is hitting for the same amount every time (no specials used) you trade 120% weapon damage and get 210% so thats + 90% Total and for spells you trade 90% and get 210% so thats 120% total.

    The premise being that you exchange a predictable damage deficit for a predictable damage bonus which allows players to optimize extra burst damage.

    So numbers wise its not a huge bonus. But it is a predictable one which caters towards rewarding a player for interacting more.
     
  13. So a couple of posters above are correct in saying that this sash is for long drawn-out battles. When I hunt undead,dragons,and ogre lords-none of them last near that long when I equip a slayer spellbook. Rarely does any of my targets last more than three or four spells. That means that if I decide to equip the sash,I will only do damage on the negative side of the "focus" with regular mobs.That is if the 'focus' doesn't move from one target to another.
     
  14. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Yep if you're going to kill anything in a few quick hits/spells, then that wouldnt be a good candidate for using a focus item.
     
  15. *My new Focus Sash becomes a fireplace mantle deco item*
     
  16. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    It's an interesting concept, but I think the flaw is that additional firepower for direct damage spells are most useful against mobs that die in a few spells. This Spell Focus thingy seems to be tailored for long fights against big mobs or bosses. The problem is: most mages avoid doing direct damage to Boss mobs and rely on summons instead. The reason being that most bosses kill a PvM mage pretty fast, once they target on him.
    So, where it would be the most useful it will be used the least.
     
  17. Huh?

    This is the exact thing that I rant about when trying to teach newbies how to fight bosses. They seem to think that the proper strategy is to cast 2 EVs or a Colossus, then invis. Drives me nuts. Yes, mages (of all sorts) should be doing direct damage to bosses, and if they know what spells to cast and are properly equipped, can dish out tons of damage. Standing around or hiding and waiting for summons to kill stuff is asinine (not to mention takes 20x longer).

    The new sash will be of no use in PvM to people who haven't yet figured out how to attack bosses. For those who have been putting in thought all along into how they can maximize damage, this is another tool in the chest.
     
  18. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    hey, just stating the facts here.

    I have a maxed out SDI suit on my PvM mage. He deals enourmous amounts of damage will probably use that sash (if i can get one) until that lt. of the guard sash finally drops for me.

    But my point stays valid - most mages avoid direct damage to bosses. I do too sometimes, because slasher will eat me up in no time if he decides to target on my mage.
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    My characters that doesn't have eval use summons for damage.

    My characters with eval use summons as meat shields while I unleash my 80+ sdi, 120 eval, slayer, maxed out arcane focus, arcane empowerment, wod fury from afar.

    I solo navery without summons due to his special pull attacks.

    This will be a boon to my eval mages/weavers.

    I can use 5 magic arrows to gain focus and passive regen mana, then unleash the heavy spells. The problem I have now is I already have my lt sash...should I have both and swap when needed, or should I pass the lt sash to another char...choices choices...
     
  20. I could hold your Lt. Sash for you until you decide.
    *whistles tunelessly*
     
  21. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    The sashes are nice for my spellweavey-tamer type.

    Start the peerless/reknowned with a few mind blasts.

    Heal my pet for 10-15 minutes.

    Then get up to 15 super words of death.
     
  22. Yeah, totally agree, that's my point exactly. Use summons to tank and set up kills, but you don't wait for them to do the actual killing. I'd rather sit and watch grass grow then wait around for summons to actually kill stuff. It's literally 20x slower if you don't cast direct damage spells (with proper template & gear of course).
     
  23. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    It works like this:
    • At first, you will do less damage than regular.
    • The damage you do with your spells will build up over the sequence of your spells.
    • The last 10-15 spells in the sequence will deal higher damage than regular.
    • After about 25 spells it will start from the beginning, and damage will be building up again over the next 25 spells.
    • So, on average you will do as much damage as you'd do without the sash, but it is distributed differently.
    • After all, the sash has also 5% DCI.
    • It doesn't matter if you use slayers or not.
     
  24. This is only true if your target has survived the barrage of spells you have casted on it. Otherwise your spell focus starts over with each new target.
     
  25. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    There are a handful of mobs in game (actually almost all the ones with decent loot).

    And fyi... mages cant be like sampire/wammy and do 250 damage a hit once every 1.25 sec.
     
  26. Delbrie

    Delbrie Lore Keeper
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    Just curious, does this apply to healing a pet as well?
     
  27. If you play Catskills,I'll give you a sash so you can test to see if it does.
     
  28. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    The crystals, if used on a weap, is it gonna do the same type of thing (start at a negative)?
     
  29. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Yes. My advise is to not apply the crystals on your whirlwind weapon. But ALWAYS apply it on your boss killing weapon as you WILL gain a decent bonus overall. Especially when you play a samurai and you can use hit 1 thru 5 on regular hits and regain some mana then LS all the way to the top dmg zone then AI until you are out of mana. Play it smart and it will help you.

    And people who says apply the crystal will screw up your weapon damage distribution do NOT know wtf they are talking about. The only thing the crystal will change is the color on your weapon the damage distribution will remain the same.
     
  30. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    coolness, Thanks! I was thinking of something for rat renowns, where I have to hit a ton of times.If it has self repair, that will disappear when it becomes brittle from the crystal, or would the self repair still be there, just invisible?
     
  31. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Anyone else see this as way too complicated?
     
  32. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    I have tested it it is totally crap, not usefull for anything.

    It begins with 3 hits nothing then, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55 only example. Stays for 10 hits begins anew.

    But normally you are doing 50 damage around that with every hit, so it is really bad especially if you have leeches on your weapon.

    What i like to see is a for example fire focus crystal, it switches a normal weapon to 100 fire damage that would be cool ;).
     
  33. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Field report after doing several cavern of discarded bosses with a swords sammy and whammy -

    Feels like it takes just as long...weapons have only 2 specials to choose between, plus perhaps lightning strike. Can't really take advantage of the DI bonus like the sash and release FS, WOD etc during the bonus cycle.

    Now that I look at the net gain in DI, it's only 90% over 21 hits. So that's almost equal to an extra attack.

    Does anyone have better tactics to make use of the bonus better? Switching weapons will reset the cycle right?


    As to the damage conversion, I think the devs mentioned that they'll look for a way to add damage conversion properties. Letting the crystals do this would be a good idea.
     
  34. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Underwhelming. I'll be buying a Corgul's to get the DCI on a sash.
     
  35. covert

    covert Journeyman
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    Unnecessarily so.
     
  36. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Compared to the focus gem, the sash actually does better for mages than the gem does for warriors. Simply because you have a wide range of spells that can be affected by the sash.

    Esp if you can get a a boss without having to deal with minions. Many ways to build up, such as weavers using damaging debuffs like thunderstorm, essence of wind to nerf the boss' attacks. Mystics have it even easier. Once you build up positive DI, ebolt, FS. Then at peak DI, arcane power and WoD for max damage output.



    Considering the sash is very easy to get, and that warriors don't rely on damaging spells for damage, equipping it on warriors, it's a cheap (free) alternative to corgul's sash.
     
  37. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    I use the sash on my sampire for the dci. She doesn't cast any spells anyway. I wish I could remove the spell focus from it so I could use it across all my toons for the dci. lol
     
  38. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Just wanted to note that the spell focus also affects spell damage from weapons. My spawn weapons have hit lightning and hit area effect on them. The spawn these are used to kill die well before the weapon spell damage increases.

    Do not use for the dci if you have a weapon with hit spell. Havent checked the weapon hit spell for pvp tho, might be useful so you get a bigger dump at the end, but not for 5 hit kills. IMO these sashes are pretty worthless, except for very specific mage pvp fights (and very complicated for use to be sustainably effective.
     
  39. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Imbuers need to be able to remove item properties.
     
  40. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    The sash do affect hit spells. It was explained by Logrus on the other thread.
    It will be much easier to use once they add a indicator that shows if you are in penalty/bonus steps.
     
  41. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I have to more than fully agree with this, Such as but not limited to DI on weapons....exceptional weapons automatically only get 4 props...mind as well just use non exceptional and at least get 4.5 props (depending on the prop but still it is just for an example).

    the damage from hitspell matters that much? Plus...doesn't the math work out to be like...2 damage?
     
  42. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    With the whole "I've never played UO but this sounds like a useful property!" spell focusing thing on it, the sash is more trouble than it's worth. At least if we could take the focus off it would be a nice DCI sash.
     
  43. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Yup is terrible trouble for newer players. I like the dev team...and like the innovative thinking they have going on. But sometimes more complicated than needed, specially for newer players.
     
  44. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    The item should never impose a damage penalty. Instead of cycling from -20% to +40% damage (or whatever) it should cycle from 0% to +20%.

    No penalty, compensated for with a smaller peak, so that in long fights the damage averages out the same over time. You can still wait for the high point of the cycle to really unload if you want. But since it never actually imposes a penalty, you don't have to take it off for shorter fights.
     
  45. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Wouldn't say I agree with "never" but it has to be worth while....Sure against bosses the sash works well enough, and is a benefit, but fight anything else and it just makes you waste mana. If it didn't lose its cycle from re-targeting then maybe I would be ok with the negative damage. And the focus on weapons is not as useful just my feelings about it though, maybe I am wrong.
     
  46. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    The focusing items could be done without penalty or with allowing carry over from target to target, but really that's not what they are about.
    They provide a tactical option where the cost, benefit, and time investment are all known and predictable quantities.

    The benefits come from how its used instead of just that its used.

    For weapons the addition of the property does not count against the imbuing weight. For the sash, the properties are comparable with most other chest slot items so that mages aren't forced to make a really large tradeoff in addition to the initial penalties.

    Fighters aren't forced to use specials so they don't have to spend any mana while in the penalty stages. There's alot less risk there. Additionally that penalty stage duration is dependent on their swing speed and successful hit rate. 5 swings with a fast weapon, is about 6.25 seconds, 5 spells hitting with damage is a bit slower than that and there is the mana investment.

    (DCI Sash is one of Corgul's 3 GUARANTEED drops not his artifact drops. So if you do him a few times chances are you'll get one. )


    @Harlequin:

    Your best use of the focus property on the weapon is to use regular hits to get the damage into positive.
    Once you're in positive you'll start getting the increases and can start your specials. If you wait for your first major damage spike thats the time to fire off your heavy damage specials like AI(PvM ONLY) or Crushing blow. Also thats a good time to renew your concecrate/divine fury. Lightning strike crit is not predictable so it benefits a bit less from the combining with the property.

    The important thing to remember is that a 20% bonus is proportional and stacking so the harder you hit, the bigger the bonus. If you're hitting for 30 you'll get a small bump to 36, but if you were hitting with a crushing blow you'd be hitting for 30(Base) +15(50% Crushing) then applying the 20% giving 54 instead of 30(Base) + 15(50%) + 6(20%) which would give you 51.
     
  47. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    It would be used the exact same way even if it never imposed an actual penalty. The only difference is that you don't have to stop and go "Boss fight time!" and open up your paperdoll and swap sashes, then swap back when you're done.

    As for the melee version, I don't know about everyone else but I don't even use many specials in PVM. I'm better off just lightning striking on every blow for the hit chance increase, criticals, and the damage reduction a miss causes me in terms of building Perfection.

    I guess if I were rich enough to imbue a suit with everything else I wanted AND hit chance increase...
     
  48. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    I would not use the gems on sampire weapons. The penalty can get you killed. I do see the benefit for archers since they hit for more and normally are there for DPS and not tanking.
     
  49. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Yes but you see yourself that the bonus is too low, i dont see the sense of this focusing items?

    I can understand it if you say okay you get 20% bonus which is not very much and a small penaltiy at the beginning and then you can bring it up to maximum against one monster and it satys there until you are attacking another one, but the status quo is not usefull and i never will use it on my weapons again.

    Also i dont understand why you are creating pvm slayer weapons with pvp mods on it? The fey slayer for example, useless in pvm and also in pvp, a useless weapon good to have for collectors but for others a better relict fragment.

    I can understand that you not giving them mods like 50% life, stam and mana leech, but around 30% of 2 of them or maybe a battle lust weapon with that also cool, but now for me any new weapons introduced since SA are complelty useless!
     
  50. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    @Skrag:
    If there was no penalty what would be the reason for NOT using it?



    @luc
    If you weigh the 5 penalty stages with the 5 peak stages.
    You'd get (-120/-90)% (weapon/Spell) vs (+100/+100)%
    And a nice weapon damage of oh 30. (Which is Ok for PvP)
    That penalty stage would cost you 120% damage total or 36, or just about 1 hit wasted.

    At the peak stage only you'd get a bonus 100% or 30 in this case.
    So you would be at -6 at the end of it.
    Lets say you wanted to maximize it and spent the last 5 hits executing a crushing blow
    Your total damage bonus would be 45. which would be a + 9 bonus on every one of those 5 hits. And doesnt count the additional accumulating 28 damage you would have gotten from the incremental increase. So You sacrifice 36 damage and end up doing 73 damage. (or if you had used crushing on every single hit that was receiving a bonus ( as well about 86 damage.)

    If you swing that over to pvm, where players achieve damage on a much larger scale you'll also have the option of armor ignore in your arsenal as well and you can put up larger numbers.


    If you're talking magery numbers are more on the obvious side since you can get past the penalty with 5 magic arrows and trade the cost of those 5 ( 12) damage for the opportunity to do 5 flame strikes which do the damage of 6.(a 31 dmg bonus)


    Of course if you're playing a bushido character where you invest maybe 3 mana for a huge hci bonus, constantly stacking damage up to 100%, and the chance for a free armor ignore every swing, focusing weapons are probably not gonna help you all that much.


    As for artifacts since SA, if you cant find a powerful enough weapon, armour piece or jewel, you're probably not imbuing it right. The only thing introduced since SA more powerful than the capabilities of imbuing have been ship cannons and there's no way I'm making those hand held.