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Stone Form Mesanna and The Twitter Guy

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Flutter, Mar 24, 2012.

  1. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    What does everyone think of this "spell"?
    I feel like stone form should be a little more move-restrictive.
    If you're a pile of solid rock you should have trouble moving around.
    You should not be able to out run my horse (even with your speed hack).
    You should have trouble catching up with your greater dragon that you just told to "all kill" even though his name isn't "All"
    You should not be able to fly by my max dex thoroughbred race war horse with your heavy stone legs and arms weighing you down so much.

    Thank you for your attention to this matter.
     
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  2. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    Since when could you run equal to or faster than mount speed in stone form.
     
  3. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Exactly
    Thats her point.
    I have seen this, players who are under retardation of movement spells still out running my mounts be it ethy or mare. Any mount for that matter.
     
  4. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    Thats speed hack then, has nothing to do with stoneform, unless someone found a way to glitch flying and fly while in form.

    If you are referring to the goblin transformation ring, i don't think they fixed the bug where you can fly while wearing it unlike halloween costumes
     
  5. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    Unfortunately, UO's loose policy about scripting/macroing has promoted this type of behavior. It is even more reinforced by the fact they do not punish these players.

    Until they crack down on 3rd party programs, this is just something we all have to unfortunately put up with.

    From the sound of it, Jeff does not care to address this issue as he would prefer to create a place hackers can play together (lol? They're called private servers, keep it there so us paying people aren't subjected to it) On top of that, he mentioned he has no intention of working on the new player experience, as he pointed it out was not in the top of his priorities. Makes me think at this point the devs are making game changes to conform things to the way they and their guild would like it and not how the main population/vet players would want it. You would think with the population issues, etc, things like this would be of more urgency. UO is only holding itself back at this point. With the release of Guild Wars 2 and Diablo III coming, UO may catch some nails in the coffin.
     
  6. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    unfortunately the hacking is not the main UO issue... simply because is mainly for the pvp players that due to this are leaving...

    If you think about it's self fixing, the more they hack, the more they leave until none of them will remains :D
     
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  7. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest

    The problem you refer to actually has been present for a while. I have seen multiple people who have been dismounted that could then run faster than people while on foot.

    Usually these people were not fast all the time just when they wanted to be

    I have to agree they refuse to fix the problem, so the solution is self fixing, i have heard more people in Ultima dropping to 1 account this year than probably the 15 years previous. This really does ruin what was left of fun in pvp
    with no level playingfield. Why should i log on to play a fight where if im clearly not cheating i am fighting uphill? Why would i encourage someone else to play it?

    I think we all are coming to the same answers now especially when every week you are now seeing less and less people. Atlantic is dead, truly dead now, boooooring. EAs solution? Cater to cheating!
    My solution drop this account then this account wait to see if they are still stupid then bye! Oh and ill see you in EVE where they have had 8 consecutive years of growth.
    Stop and ask yourself the last year you felt real growth in Ultima Online.
     
  8. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    The stagnant population in UO is undeniable. PvPers who are legit are at an auto disadvantage to people running speed hacks, etc. PvMers are prey to competing with script miners/ljers and sampires who simply walk rails with a 3rd party program spamming target closest and whirlwind for them. However, no matter how many times you report and click, they're back within hours. The devs haven't figured out how to balance the game to make scripting inefficient. Until then, they'll charge us our monthly AND headsplit in the sometimes functioning store. It's obvious they're going to milk it for what its worth and if anything use UO for resume building and to train newbie programmers .

    Free to play with a working store is the trend going right now. Lucrative amounts of money can be made, just look at games like League of Legends. Just a suggestion since everyone wants to turn a blind eye to the real issues. No one wants to pay for a time sink that takes a legit player MONTHS to build a self sufficient account, when anyone who uses illegal programs can just breeze through unattended and effortless while jeering at those who actually took the time to do it the right way.

    Even the easy fixes has become overlooked. I mean seriously, how many spawns have you worked over x amount of years where massive amounts of the mobs spawn in unreachable areas like water, inside walls, etc. You'd think these basic things even would be fixed by now, but they have eluded all patches. UO has become the tire that has 10 patches on it. People leave it in their trunk and don't want to get rid of it because they've gone so far down the road with it, but no one wants to put it back on the pavement because it's going to give out soon.
     
  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Much like the discussion of the Faction changes... Most folk who would have cared, those who saw factions more from a RP sort of view who are less inclined to using hacks and cheats, have long abandoned fel to it's cheaters. And I agree I've seen things such as this more and more often...

    Could some be due to folk using the EC and having a good connection? Perhaps connection speed, the strength of one PC vs another... but it's highly unlikely. Supposedly UO has something "built-in" to counter people doing things "too" quickly. But I've seen folk run through things that a "normal" player never could...

    And I am also disillusioned about the new producers statement regarding the new player experience. But then even I have begun to question how many accounts I need to play a game I am less and less inclined to log-in to. More and more often I find myself making more and more excuses not to play.

    Frustrations over more and more things such as the tendency to add more and more grinds to the game have simply made the game less and less fun. I guess I'm not very interested in fighting monsters that one hit kill have more HP than they should and take 20 min. to grind at... My interest is the RP which of late has dwindled to near non-existence. Yes I enjoy the EM events... but doing an EM event once or twice a week does not sustain much interest if it too has become nothing more than another grind. And more often than not the events revolve around those who would rather play the game to make a buck rather than those who play the game to enjoy the game for the game. I'm more fed up with folk who's only interest in UO is how much gold they can get and sell and they will do whatever it takes to do just that. Seems to me though that THOSE are the sorts of people they (the DEV's) are catering to these days. Less and less often do many of my friends log-in... fewer and fewer folk wish to participate in things that don't involve millions of gold. Hard to even do events anymore if you can't afford to give 10's or 100's of millions in gold away.

    And so I ask myself more and more often... Why do I continue to log-in? Is it the hope and the dream that one day something will change and the "fun" will return? Is it the hope that one day the friends who have left will come back? Am I just maintaining what was in the hopes that it will be again? I no longer know. Sometimes I think it is a dream and a hope that one day UO will change and the fun will return... But what will it take for that to happen? What changes must come to bring that back? Do all the old friends need to return? I don't know the answers anymore... Perhaps I ask too much of a game that is trapped in the past. Perhaps it is I who is still trapped in the past and has yet to move on...
     
  10. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    When this was first released, i'm pretty sure you actually were only able to walk in stone form and not run, there's no official notes about it, don't know when and why they changed it.
     
  11. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    Yes, Mervyn is right when it was first release you could only walk. But I will say I've fought alot of people on alot of dif shards, and I've never seen anyone who can run on foot as fast as i can mounted. I mean there are several people who are good with there teleport macros but even that is slowed down with stone form
     
  12. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    Stone form is not the problem here! If they are moving that fast its a bug they are exploiting or some kind of speed hack!

    and it was a long time ago when they increased the movement it is still slower than mounted speed either way

    casting,swinging and movement are all slowed in stoneform
     
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  13. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    There's many more issues than just the movement speed of stone form. I think a SKILLED poisoner should have some sort of chance to poison someone in this transformation. At the moment if you have 100 poisoning and you try to Evil Omen/poison, poison, poison field, Infectious Strike, OR Serpent Arrow a player with 120 focus 120 mystic in stone form they're impervious to any attempt 100% of the time.
     
  14. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    Even if you landed it, it'd be cleansing winded away in 3 casts by the baddies who don't know about arch cure. Oh, and they'd heal/cure all of their stone form friends around them in the process, all with one button. And to think of multiple templates like this just standing on top of each other... Why no mass purge?
     
  15. The_Dude_

    The_Dude_ Journeyman
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    I love how ppl talk about pvpers as such a small group. I play this game to pvp and have fun I just closed 7 of my 8 accounts because of the rampant cheating and hacking that has gone on. The people in charge care nothing of this game or how to fix it. Only care to milk you for wahtever they can
     
  16. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    IMO it doesn't matter if the movement restriction was re-applied, the problem is Protection combined with Stone-form.

    It's almost impossible to kill someone in stoneform + protection, with pretty much Any template [one vs one] Unless it's Mystic vs Mystic. <-- the main problem.

    IMHO Protection and Stone-form shouldn't be-able to both be in affect at the same time. casting one should remove the other.
    stone-form would still be useful in groups, the people who use it would at least be prone to spell interruptions.
     
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  17. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    It is balanced because they won't be able to kill you either.

    They cast slower than you, they can't mount or run at mount speed (hacking aside but this was a poorly disguised nerf mystics thread anyway).

    If a mystic mage in stone form + protection were able to take you down to 10% hp quickly then chase you down (without speed hacks) and kill you, then you might have a convincing argument. This is however not the case, especially because if it is a one vs one there's nothing preventing you from throwing on protection yourself and going on defensive until he decides to leave stone form.

    I also shouldn't have to mention that your suggestion would make stoneform un-unusable in pvm for anyone except mystic dexxers. If the point of stone form is to allow the caster to tank, and they can't have the benefit of protection or mount speed, then how do you expect the caster to get any heals off or any spell for that matter with a bunch of monsters beating on him. There would never be a reason to enter stoneform in pvm unless you are being hit a lot, and if you are being hit a lot then you would also want to be in protection, especially when you also cannot mount.

    Casting stone form in any situation except where you want to go defensive is detrimental in either pvm or pvp in any case because you take a FC penalty regardless of protection on top of not being able to mount

    Though it is pretty clear why people are complaining, because other than stone form no other templates have any "real" way to activate a skill or spell that allows them to switch from "DPS" mode to "Tank" mode.

    Better solution, give more defensive abilities to other skills instead of just passive bonuses from parry and pot chugging.
     
  18. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Better solution is to fix mysticism.
     
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  19. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    The idea that something requires Fixing implies that the object in question is fundamentally broken.
    However if the problem arises from the fact that you refuse to adapt your play style, the problem falls with you not the skill itself.
    Especially when the solution is as simple as switching targets, or walking away.

    Refusing to switch targets or simply running away when you get low on HP (or even carry a talisman of ward removal for that matter), is entirely your fault and your inability to change up your playstyle and not because the skill itself is broken.

    If you were a dexxer of some kind and fighting a parry wrestle mage in protection what do you do? do you just stand there and keep trying to hit him until he flame strikes you to death? No of course not the solution is to run away or switch targets and fight someone else. Same thing with a guy in stone form +protection. Difference being the guy in stone form protection can't actually chase you while you are running away.
     
  20. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I agree! This this 1000 times this! mystic/stoneform is defensive by its nature!
     
  21. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    So being the GREAT PvPer that you talk about how do you combate an army of 9 mystics in stone form/protection holding a grinder?

    Nox fields are useless, having a winder is useless, a group has to have at least 2 people doing chain mass dsp just to keep their RC's down since mystics can pre cast a RC while they have one up, Hail Storm damage is insane and it isn't like any other AOE where the more the targets the less damage it does.

    You can attempt to have a few mystics purging the stone form/pro, but it is so random since it purges everything it can take 4-5 times to pure 1 person out of stone form.

    The best way is to have another lame army of stone form mystics, but there goes the UO idea of a "sandbox" game when everyone is running the same template.


    and lets not forget about cleasing wind that takes all the skill out of cross healing and removes every curse in the book. LAME!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  22. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    That is exactly where you are making your mistake. You simply don't fight them when they are going all out defense. If a bunch of people are turtle-ing, then ignore them and wait for them to either disperse or go on offense elsewhere. Its not like they can chase you down and kill you without leaving stoneform, and theres even less reason why you have to play where they want you to play.

    The only reason why a bunch of people would stand still and try to hold a position in the way you are describing it, is simply because you and yours are throwing yourselves at them over and over again while they go lol. Just don't go into said "grinder" location, ignore them, etc and they will stop doing a pure defensive strategy when they get bored of not having anyone to fight.

    And like i said its only a problem if they can not only stay in stone form but chase you down and kill you. But since they can't do that they are essentially nothing more than a sitting fortress. Good for defending choke points maybe, but if you don't try to take the choke point they will eventually have to come out if they want to continue the pvp.

    Whether or not you win is not always about your ability to bull rush your way through a bunch of people. You don't have to fight a group of people turtling in a place where they have an obvious advantage. For example would it be easier for you to try and get onto the island in despise rat champ while they have a bunch of people fielding and defending both bridges, or is it easier for you to wait for them to exit through the star room?

    Its the same concept. Don't fight them when they are in form and in a location where they have a distinct advantage, and give them a reason to go out of form such as lets say iono not go into "grinder location" and stay 2 screens away from them at all times when they leave it to fight you somewhere else. If this group of 9 people you were fighting were actually looking for people to fight in the first place, then they will have to mount up and chase your team when you don't oblige them by throwing yourselves at a brick wall. And that's when you attack them.
     
  23. Saint of Killers

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    So frostbolt's solution is to take your ball and go home.

    You do understand that Farimir was taking about raiding a spawn or harrower right frostbolt?

    Eight to ten "competent" mystics are not getting pushed out of any choke/grinder unless you're pushing with mystics yourself. There is no army of necros that'll bust through. An army of greater drags get chewed up with hailstorm/dragon slaying spellbooks.

    The whole "impervious turtle up stone/pro/cleanse" mode is absolutely overpowered. The only people that refuse to admit it are the guilds with a lot of people using the temp, pvmers using stone/pro/cleanse that don't want it messed with, or people that never raid a spawn/harry so have not witnessed it in action.
     
  24. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Define absolutely overpowered. If the "turtle" has enough people to defend, how is that over powered? Get more people to attack.
     
  25. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    I believe why it is absolutely overpowered has already been touched on. If not, let me help you.

    Multiple target one button heal that also cures+heal, removes curse, removes mortal. This means all cross healing skill has been removed from the game, and enables a small but competent group of mystics to stand on top of each other and hold a 6 tile wide hallway while supporting their teammates and throwing down RCs with ease. This sounds all fine and dandy, until you realize Harrowers spawn in dungeons, that are ALL easily grindable maps/hallways. First to pop the Harry and get setup wins? Or is it, you do your Harrower and then we will just create a 2 hour stalemate? It makes no sense. Fel has already been dumbed down enough.

    High resistance to the only spell in the game that counters the form (purge), with that already forcing players to run the same template to cast it (everyone already looks alike with leather armor, why not force them to play the same template too?)

    Impervious to poison

    Winding has no effect

    Ability to cast and hold a RC while the 5 pet slots are taken with their summon that already is in play, which is hands down the most powerful summon seeing as it AIs/Purges/Bombards (kick mages while they're down)

    Hailstorm damage is not split between the number of targets hit, not to mention it and animated weapon can both be cast through certain walls and into private homes (why remove this mechanic from meteor swarm and chain lightning because it is seen as a problem, and then hand it over to another skill set? All or nothing, please)

    Is it understood that all of the above features are given to a single template, with minimal need for more than 3 keys?

    There are a few more things that can be pointed out, but these are the main ones.

    Also, where would you recommend recruiting these new fighters from? New players coming to the game is a RARE event, as growth is stagnant. No one is going to recommend the game to their friends because of the rampant use of 3rd party programs piled in with a subscription fee, boring grinds, a semi-functional store, and a huge learning curve. The recent "boost" in subscriptions comes from returning PvPers, because lets be honest, no one comes back for the PvM in UO. No AI is compensated for with huge health bars, unrecoverable hits from bosses, and massive numbers of trash mobs/spawns piled into a small area. It's a mindless pixel farm fest.

    Just because PvM is a 3 button win deal in UO, it does not mean the PvP should be the same way. Some things separate the men from the boys.
     
  26. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Nox fields are useless, having a winder is useless, a group has to have at least 2 people doing chain mass dsp just to keep their RC's down since mystics can pre cast a RC while they have one up, Hail Storm damage is insane and it isn't like any other AOE where the more the targets the less damage it does.

    You can attempt to have a few mystics purging the stone form/pro, but it is so random since it purges everything it can take 4-5 times to pure 1 person out of stone form.

    The best way is to have another lame army of stone form mystics, but there goes the UO idea of a "sandbox" game when everyone is running the same template.


    and lets not forget about cleasing wind that takes all the skill out of cross healing and removes every curse in the book. LAME!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  27. Umfufu

    Umfufu Journeyman
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    I wonder what the next witchhunt will be after this ...
     
  28. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What am I missing here? Is it just one person you can not over power? Two people? A good handful? Is this one of those "I can not defeat 10 trammys" by my self things?

    If the defenders have more people and "skills"... I am sorry. You just are not gonna win. If you have more people and "skills" you will.

    This really is funny to me. PvPers have been begging for folks to come to Fel... I guess coming to win was not expected.
     
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  29. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I'm not sure what's going on here. I am just asking for greater movement restrictions for stone form. A person should not be able to run at mounted speed with a greater dragon in tow. Speed hack or no speed hack. Especially in a form that protects them from being poisoned or bled.
     
  30. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    A stone person should not sprint... I get that. What is being whined about after yer post is what I have issues with.
     
  31. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    If skill translates to 3 button templates, play arcade games.
     
  32. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    you cant if they are then either your connect is slow or they are using something changing the stone form is not the answer here
     
  33. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *blinks* What? How many buttons does it take to equate to "skill"?
     
  34. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    I can kill a stone form mystic on my scribe weaver mage easily. 1 quick essense and tstorm does the job.
     
  35. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    For what it is worth, and even though it is not the root problem, both stone and reaper forms had their movement restrictions lifted quite some time ago. It was the same publish and no I have not looked up the number, or if it was a post pub fix. Lots of changes have been made, mostly without notation in the wake of SA and the balance pass that followed. This small boost occurred closer to the release of high Seas or the rebuild of New Magincia.
     
  36. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    There's someone who does it on my shard every single day.
     
  37. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Wow you are really full of your self aren't you. What is really funny to me is everytime PvPers make a logical complaint, and offer solutions you come back with a [email protected] respose like "This really is funny to me. PvPers have been begging for folks to come to Fel... I guess coming to win was not expected"

    Please show me one example in the post where anyone was complaining about new PvPers killing vet PvPers.

    All we want is for templates to be even so everyone doesn't have to run a mystic mage template, and right now they aren't.

    PvP isn't much fun when you hear "Go after player X he is a mystic, go after Player Y he is a mystic, go after player Z he is a mystic. I will purge because I am a mystic, since you are a mystic hail storm, since you are a mystic use cleasing wind."

    What makes PvP, and really UO all together interesting is the DIFFERENT template. You can NOT have that when one template is so over powered.

    But I really do not expect you to understand this, all I really expect is another [email protected] response from you because obviously you go into a battle of wits unarmed.
     
  38. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    Kelmo doesn't have to offer a "logical solution" because most pvp complaints boil down to or revolve around "but the trammie or that Sub par player came through the gate with a (bestial suit) or (stone form) and I couldn't kill him before he ran away!" When logical solutions are offered pvpers don't listen and almost always fall back on this argument or attempt to make some jab at "balance" which may "balance" things for them ("acceptable" cookie cutter templates cough) but either screws over the other half of the game or makes the object for nerfing in question completely useless.

    If you insist I can show you where people were complaining about "subpar" players in this thread which is apparently synonymous with new player, bad player, player who runs "op templates", and trammie in this forum. I also don't have to mention that going along with pvper logic new player is automatically synonymous to bad player because new players have no "skill" yes? Therefore they are bad because they don't or can't play at optimal efficiency.

    So your quote can say "show me one example in the post where anyone was complaining about bad PvPers killing vet PvPers" and it would still mean the same thing. As such the quote i am about to put down completely fills your criteria.

    Before you go accusing others of "smart ass responses", Need I remind you of your own one sentence smart ass response?

    Also what wits? The measure of your "wits" in this thread consists of 3 posts, 1 of which is a single sentence that essentially contributes nothing, and the 3rd is a copy paste of your 2nd post.

    Your 4th post is filled with personal attacks against Kelmo which is to say that you were attacking him instead of debating his opinions. Even if i were to give you credit for attempting to back up your side of the argument, all that can be said about the rest of your 4th post (this includes your 2nd and 3rd as well) is that it consists of exaggerations about how everyone is a mystic in fel when it is obviously not true. By my estimation Kelmo is running circles around you in this "battle of wits", seeing as how you never actually answered his points and instead respond with what amounts to as an assorted number of distraction fallacies.

    Seriously don't make accusations that you yourself are guilty of in the same thread. It just makes you look bad. Especially when these accusations of yours apply moreso to yourself than the person you are trying to target.
     
  39. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    There should be no 'battle of wits' necessary, simply logical, informed discussion without recourse to personal attacks.

    It seems to me that the problem here is that there appears to be some way for certain people to exploit the game's coding in such a way that they are able to move as if mounted no matter what they're actual mounted/on foot/in form condition might be. Have I understood that correctly?
     
  40. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    I assure you no one can move on foot at mounted speed lol. I've fought many people on many many shards and have never seen this. Usually this stems from bad pvpers footing someone, then all trying to summon hailstorm or something stam blocking each other and footed man gets away teleporting.
     
  41. Saint of Killers

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    Kelmo I will file your response in my "people that never raid a spawn/harry so have not witnessed it in action" folder.

    Your solution "get more people to attack" still doesn't deal with the problem, unless you show up with the same mystic/focus templates. There is no variety. Stone form/pro can't be poisoned/disrupted, has ridiculous resists, and do nothing but throw out rising colossus' and synch hailstorms. They get cleansed by other mystics in the back row, as well as bard songs (by truly deep guilds). The only way to combat a large group using that tactic is to have enough mystics of your own spitting out your own rising colossus'. It's comical.

    But hey, if people don't witness it, then I guess it's not a problem.

    I was informed last night that you only play on Siege, so now I understand why you're not witnessing the issue. This isn't a "point and click dexxer/eat a smokebomb" discussion.
     
  42. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    There is a saying, no one would play a healer or defensive class, or in this game's case template if said template/class can be burned down by 1 player.

    Answer this, why is it a problem for a highly defensive template to exist, if the point of it were to defend a spawn/harrower from raiders? I'd imagine that if i hypothetically wanted to pop a harrower with my guild it would not be to attract a bunch of raiders to fight, its because we need the scrolls.

    Naturally in this hypothetical situation in which my imaginary guild can field the necessary numbers I would have them bring a bunch of mystics for walling, mage bards for bard song buffs, fielding, and healing, and bola mage tamers with greater dragons to kill anyone who gets through. With 3 sampires on the Harrower itself

    So in this situation where I want to defend my investment of champ spawn skulls, why do you perceive an issue with playing defensive? Why does defending a spawn/harrower "have" to revolve around playing a better offense?

    Isn't that kind of the point? If i want to hold a position i want to be able to hold it defensively. Again i ask whats the problem of playing defense over offense. I won't be able to chase you down and kill you but you aren't getting in here either unless you bring a whole lot more people with you.


    Secondly this brings me to the other point, especially since you are referring to champ and harrower spawns in particular. Is your goal for raiding said spawn or harrower because you wanted to pvp? Or is it because you wanted to wipe them and take over their spawn?

    Yes i realize this is a loaded question.

    If you say you pvp for the sake of pvp, I will answer with if your goal is to pvp then you will be happy as long as pvp occurred.

    and on the other side of the coin I will say...

    If you wanted to take over their spawn, well the raiders have every advantage seeing as how the defenders have to defend and kill the spawn at the same time. If you answer with this, I will of course then proceed to accuse you of wanting to nerf defensive play because you are having a harder time of taking something that someone else worked for.

    But regardless this is what it usually boils down to, when champ spawns or harrowers are mentioned anyway (not talking about reds popping spawns for the purpose of attracting more reds to fight obviously). People defending their time investment vs people who wait till the final stage so they don't have to do anything themselves. The latter portion (raiders) would of course be upset when the former (defenders) no longer have to defend themselves by playing offensively while at the same time having to advance or finish the spawn. A situation which almost always favors the raiders over the defenders.

    In a hypothetical situation where everyone has equal "skill", the defending team would already need to have greater numbers than the raiders to have an equal chance of repelling them up the point where the champ or harrower is finished. Simply because the defending team has to complete 2 objectives (advancing and finishing the spawn, fight off raiders) whereas the raiders only need to complete one which is (kill everyone) and then take over where the defending team left off.

    This isn't really refutable, if the defending team consists of 6 players and they are each already engaged in combat with lets say 2 dragons and an ophidian knight at various locations on the map lets say within 1 - 1 and a half screens away from each other, and 4 reds suddenly showed up and attacked, Skill or not, who has the higher chance of coming out alive?

    The defending team would need a dedicated defense squad in other words they need a larger group of people to begin with, otherwise its essentially over as soon as the reds appear.

    And this is why having the ability to go pure defense, which forces raiders to bring in more people is not unbalanced. In fact I will argue that defensive skills and spells like stoneform protection can be considered something that helps to negate some of the imbalance that already exists between raiders vs defenders in a spawning situation. This is of course supposing that the guild in question is organized enough to pull off that mystic bard wall that you mentioned in your post.
     
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  43. Saint of Killers

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    I love how you continue to call pro/stoneform "purely" defensive frostbolt. Do you not understand that while the 75 resist across the board formers cannot be disrupted, nor poisoned, they are also being healed by one designated cleanser in the back row while they spit out rising colossus after rising colossus after rising colossus after rising colossus after rising colossus after rising colossus after rising colossus?!?

    I hate to break it to you, but an impervious temp that cannot be disrupted spitting out RCs, while being chained cleansed from someone safely in the back row is not a "purely" defensive setup. RCs are awesome. What's even better is that the chain RC mystic can hold another precast RC waiting for you to dispel his. Now imagine that times 7+ mystics all doing the same thing.

    Without the ability to kill the chain RC mystics, while you're attempting to outfield them, and keeping up with mass dispels for the devastating RCs, it's a no push scenario, unless you push with your own mystics.

    Frostbolt, it's pretty evident that you're in a guild that flourishes with stone/pro/cleanse. No need to reply to me again. It's obvious you don't want your scrolls messed with ever, and are quite content with the only pvp to be on the outskirts of a choke fight, or at Yew gate.
     
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  44. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    I like how you are avoiding my question and then continue by re-posting an argument that I've already analyzed, and others disagreed with. Yes stone form protection makes you hard to kill, we get that already. Doesn't make it Overpowered because gasp..the point of the spell is to make you hard to kill. This is something that you fail to explain because you have not answered the question i proposed. Why is it a problem for people to play defensively when protecting a spawn instead of having to go offense to counter offense at the same time as when they are trying to kill pvm content?

    And of course it is defensive, You can't move into their space. They aren't chasing after you. In other words you can't kill them they can't kill you either. Such a strategy can only be described as a defensive one.

    But no, you just continue to recite something along the lines of, I can't push past them they are unkillable (duh, they are turtling how many times do we need to say this) or bringing mystic mages yourself.

    Soo more disruption fallacies? Is that the only thing pvpers have to fall back on after a few people disagree with the only argument they have? You can't even actually be bothered to provide a proper logical argument to back up your own opinion when someone disagrees and instead just keep copy pasting what you posted the first time.
     
  45. Saint of Killers

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    Which question am I avoiding? Was it your: "Answer this, why is it a problem for a highly defensive template to exist, if the point of it were to defend a spawn/harrower from raiders?" question?

    I have zero problems with defensive templates being around. I have a problem with "impenetrable" situations unless you choose to fight fire with fire.

    So tell me frostbolt, which mystic stoneform zerg are you running with, and on which shard? That'll tell me all I need to know about your love for chokes that can't be pushed unless they're facing a mirror image of themselves. Don't avoid my question with 16 paragraphs of how stone/pro/cleanse is just fine as is.
     
  46. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    Frostbolt you are still trolling pvpers and you obviously have no idea what pvp is. Why do you post here.
     
  47. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    For same reason I do I reckon. So folks hear more than the nerf side of the story.
     
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  48. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    Mystic has had 5 balances, If the split of winds was proper and 1 cleansing wouldnt restore 50 hp on 5 people at once it wouldnt be a big deal. How you guys cant see that mystic is far more powerful than other classes is beyond me. I mean magery also needs a boost (stop spliting chain light and meteor damage). Mage certain polymorph forms raise certain resist and such so pure mages can be viable in choke fighting.
     
  49. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I assure you they do in this stone form. At least, this person does.
     
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  50. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    Stating my side of an argument is not trolling, however if you perceive it as such it is probably because pvpers are always trolling pvmers and you can no longer tell the difference between a troll and a debate if people do not instantly agree with your assessments about how "x" template is op compared to generic cookie cutter template number 3.

    You are apparently distressed that I am taking a stance that so few people actually try to argue for. Why do you think "trammie" is a derogatory term in this game? It's probably because pvpers are the loudest portion of the player base.

    But very well if you want to see what a troll looks like.


    ad hominem: rejecting or dismissing another person's statement by attacking the person rather than by disproving the statement.
    appeal to emotion: attempting to gain support for an idea through an emotional response provoked in the audience
    oversimplification: reducing a complex situation to a simple, inaccurate statement.

    In 3 lines you committed all these and are setting me up with a loaded question so that you can commit further fallacies such as but not limited to...

    poisoning the well: (damning the origin) arguing against an idea by showing that one's interlocutor has a non-rational motive for holding the idea.


    As such i do not feel the need to trap myself by responding to your question of what i play and where i play it.

    _______
    This here of course is a troll response, I have answered nothing he asked of me, though at this point i don't particularly feel the urge to respond with anything but a troll to him anyway. Since he still has yet to answer the question i proposed and the points i brought up in a non troll fashion.

    He says he has zero problems with defensive templates, Yet how many defensive templates are out there that are actually viable besides mystic mage? The answer is of course none. Healing, Resisting magic, and occasionally parry are already a part of the cookie cutter pvp template. There are no other skills in this game that can put you in an extended defensive state.

    In other words what he essentially answered me with is "I have no problems with defensive templates because other than the mystic mage they do not exist, and i do not feel like changing up my strategy because if they do not die after i throw myself at their defensive formation without having to bring in more people then it must be overpowered."


    I don't care if they made it so cleansing winds were single target only. That wouldn't have a huge impact on PVM. But removing the ability to be in protection +stone form at the same time would have an impact for more reasons than one.

    Funny how you say magery needs a boost here, specifically magery damage split, but you were totally against it in that other thread we were in. Changing the side you argue for from thread to thread and then accusing me of trolling? lol..
     
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