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Stone Form. Need Player Input

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Leurocian, Oct 26, 2008.

  1. Leurocian

    Leurocian UO Legend
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    Howdy all,

    In the recent FoF, we informed you all about the Stone Form Mysticism spell. So far, the concepts of the Mysticism spells seem really solid so far. However, Stone Form appeared to be a lackluster spell.

    There are some important details about Stone Form that weren't mentioned to you all.

    Here is the comprehensive information about Stone Form. I would like your initial thoughts on the spell. I realize you all aren't play testing or anything yet. Don't panic. If the current design of the spell seems overpowered, we will adjust it.

    With the above stated, here we go.

    Stone Form - In Rel Ylem – Infuses the caster with the essence of solid stone, making him slow to move and fight and cast spells, but gives him resistances to damage and a slight bonus to physical damage attacks.

    Reagents: Blood Moss, Fertile Dirt, Garlic

    This form also renders the stone formed character immune to poison, strangle, bleeding, sleep, paralysis, str/dex/int reduction magics, and removes all of these afflictions.

    Note: Peerless attacks such as Gaze of Despair that reduces str/dex/int by 20 will still work on Mystic.

    The form’s resistances and bonus to physical attacks are scaled based on the Mysticism and Imbuing skill levels of the caster.

    Movement slowed. (Forced to walk)

    -10% Swing Speed Increase
    -2 Faster Casting
    Bonus to Resists = ((mysticismSkill + imbuingSkill) / 24) (+10% to all resists @ 120 Mysticism and 120 Imbuing)
    Bonus to Resist Cap ((mysticismSkill + imbuingSkill) / 48) (+5% to all resists @ 120 Mysticism and 120 Imbuing)
    Melee Damage Increase = ((mysticismSkill + imbuingSkill)/ 12) (+20% melee damage increase @ 120 Mysticism and 120 Imbuing)

    Characters cannot be mounted while in Stone Form; gargoyles will be forced to walk as well.

    Keep in mind that any talismans that remove wards or the purge magic spell can remove stone form.

    Thanks all. Really appreciate the input.

    Patrick "Leurocian" Malott
    Lead Game Designer, Ultima Online
    Mythic Entertainment, an EA Studio
     
  2. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    Is it time limited effect or permanent until recast?

    Any cool down timers?
     
  3. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Being immune to poison is going to be a huge ability in terms of PVP. I think you are underestimating the current design's potential.

    Yes.
     
  4. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Does the 20% DI work independantly for the DI you get on weapons? It seems as though this would make for another template to solo bosses again. All thAt dmg with A life leach weapon its not hard to compensate for the -10% SSI. Maybe slow down bandages for stone form people to 6 or 8 seconds since there immune to poison anyway. Also seems like it could be overpowering in choke points at spawns for a dexxer (titans hammer) using whirlwind.
     
  5. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    It seems appropriate that someone in Stone Form would have a huge Dexterity penalty of 50 or something. That would certainly slow down bandages.
     
  6. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    I wish it used eval as its partner skill instead of imbuing. I also wouldn't mind the resist bonus from the form being derived from your mysticism + magic resist skill as that just makes more sense to me.
     
  7. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    It will not be used to solo bosses, too many negatives for it, and will most likely take too many skill points.
     
  8. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    This and does the 10% resist increase stack with the current resists from items or does it work like resist spells?
     
  9. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Bushido,imbu,mystic,swords,tactics,anat,chiv with right skill jewelry would be very easy to obtain. Divine fury itself would offset the -10% ssi.
     
  10. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Being immune to poison will be huge in pvp. No way to stop the dexxers healing process.
     
  11. I think that a distinction should be made between wether it's being used in PvP or PvM.

    I think in PvP, that the slow heavy movement of being in stone form - like being in non med/mage armor - should make stealthing fail.

    I don't think the damage bonus should exceed the current caps for either.

    -2 FC... I would have thought that casting in stone form would be impossible.
     
  12. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Nope. In my experience at least, life leech on weapons isn't reliable enough for healing, and confidence isn't enough either without parry. With -2 FC, you ain't gonna be using close wounds either. And, they said that chiv needs to not be a 60 point skill anymore, I think :/
     
  13. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    It is a funny coincidence that just this morning I went through great lengths to explain to our guild why it can appear someone is speedhacking when they are not. Since this information won't really help others gain an advantage, I will also start a topic on U Hall about it. That would be a more appropriate place than derailing this one.

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=108778
     
  14. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    What if being in stone form made it so you couldn't be the target of a bandage? Kinda like how you can't heal a pet with healing skill, but more severe.
     
  15. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I think that tieing it to imbuing instead of eval int makes the ability make more sense from a fantasy standpoint and it also makes the ability a lot more balanceable.
     
  16. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    You forgot Mortal Strike.
     
  17. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Since there immune to bleed and the other curse stuff I assumed they were also immune to mortal strike even though its not listed. And if not if they have already got the bandage going it will still heal them even if there mortaled after they started the bandage.
     
  18. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I think it would make sense to prevent stealthing in stone form regardless of pvp or pvm. How exactly do you sneak around as a heavy statue?

    I agree

    [/quote]
    -2 FC... I would have thought that casting in stone form would be impossible.[/QUOTE]
    How would you get out of the form?

    I think casting should be possible while in stone form, but I like the idea of making casting a lot slower. At first I was indifferent between whether the FC penalty is a penalty to FC or a penalty to the FC cap. I'm leaning toward it being a penalty to the FC cap, so that people can't just stay in stone form with protection on and repeatedly heal themselves.

    Someone suggested putting a heavy dex penalty on the form. I think that makes sense too. It might even make sense to put a stamina regen penalty on the form.
     
  19. Dragkiris

    Dragkiris Visitor

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    Actually to Links credit he and his guild(as a whole) do not encurage or condone client mods, scripting or speedhacking. Not saying that none of his members do but hes one of the few guilds that do not have the programs posted on there forum and he publicly denounces it. And lets be real when you run a large guild of pvpers you cant police everyone in the guild. What you gonna do make them post videos of there desktop running UO. I mean I get called a speedhacker all the time but I live in eastern VA and ping 17 on ATL and have a pretty up to date computer so I am pretty quick.
     
  20. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    It seems like alot of specifics of this spell does what resist spells should do. It looks like it could completely replace the skill (and do a better job of it). At least thats part of what I would give up to make room for it. The drawback it that it can be dispelled by pure magic gives me the feeling that at least that spell (pure magic) would be making it on the AI spell check of every decent casting template PvM mob in the game.

    So you are chugging along having a good fight and get hit with a pure magic/para combo and all of the sudden your down 5% in all resists and every other bonus the spell gave you and frozen.. a sitting duck. If it is the only restriction to flying, gargoyles are instantly mounted while anyone else would have to "cast" an ethy. Seems to much of a hassle for the point investment.
     
  21. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I re-read the initial post. There are a lot of abilities that would get nullified by stone form, but everyone can carry a talisman to remove stone form, which is an immediate counter.

    I think Stone form needs a cooldown, though. If the primary counter for stone form is to remove it, there needs to be a way to prevent someone from just recasting it repeatedly (or via a spell trigger, which also uses imbuing as a skill)

    Also, I think it would make sense to scale what immunities the form gives at various levels of imbuing and require at least 100 mysticism to get any. Otherwise, people will be able to get their resists and DI from their suit and use stone form exclusively for the immunities it gives.
     
  22. By casting the form spell. Same as animal forms & horrific beast.
     
  23. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    A cure all spell? Maybe the caster need be free of these before casting. Then the immunity kicks in.

    Whats the casting time for the spell?
     
  24. QFT
     
  25. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    The same as a lvl 6 magery spell. It's a slow and powerful spell.
     
  26. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Resist Spells doesn't reduce you to forced walk speed (like reaper form).

    Forced Walk is a VERY strong penalty.

    Forced Walk can't outrun monsters... can't outrun pets...

    What do you do in pvp if you're in stone form and someone puts 5 frenzied ostards on you with FC 0? I'll answer for you... you die.
     
  27. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Yes there are pros and cons to the spell. My original post only addressed one of many tangents. I'm not a competetor ony any level as far as PvP is concerned but it brings to light another question. Is pure magic the only way you can dispell stone form? If so then doesn't that force other templates to pick up the mystcism to combat it?... provided they didnt have 5 frenzied ostards handy.
     
  28. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    1. Immunities are an on/off thing. 64 Mysticism = lots of immunities (Thanks Sarphus for telling me the level at 100% rate without me even having to ask ;) ). Instead, how about giving the person in stone form a chance to resist the effects, with a 120/120 being 100%. For poison, perhaps it could be a reduction instead of a flat immunity... or maybe a "reduced at least N and up to M levels, where N and M are some function of your mysticism and imbuing such that 120/120 means 3-6 levels". Poison seems to make most sense RP-wise as a complete immunity though.
    2. Sleep, paralysis, and stat reduction immunities both seem like they're going too far and don't really fit as things you'd automatically be immune to just because you're now made of stone. Maybe make paralysis a "You cannot move, but can still attack and cast spells" instead of a complete paralysis?
    3. A healer in stone form seems like it would be impossible nearly impossible to kill without direct damage (and if there were some direct damage defense, which I think there should be, nearly impossible to kill even with direct damage). It should take longer to kill somebody in stone form, but they shouldn't be able to be keeping themselves alive with really fast bandages. I see two options for dropping bandage-based healing: reduce bandage speed, or (what I would prefer) reduced dexterity. If you reduce dexterity, you can reduce or remove the SSI penalty.
    4. Stone form does nothing against direct damage attacks, but seems like it should.
    5. Melee damage increase means no damage increase for bows or throwing weapons, correct? If so, good call. If not, consider it. Maybe increase the MDI if it's only for melee attacks to 25% or 30% (and make sure the increase is impacted by the current DI caps).
    6. Penalties are nice, but can be avoided by items and other spells/abilities. There are plenty of items that make getting around a -2 FC and -10 SSI penalty (and still being at the cap) easy without needing to sacrifice anything noteworthy as far as item properties go. Reducing caps as well as actual values will ensure any penalties are always penalties.
    7. *submits a pair of bug reports and a PM to Leurocian*
     
  29. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Do you at least admit that EA doesn't focus enough on balancing skills/items in regards to how they can be used with other skills/items to make 'uber' templates that lead to balance issues? And do you not think that at least SOME restricts should be put in place to help contain this sort of thing? Mixing Chivalry (Knights/Paladins etc...) with Necromancy (Evil Liches/Undead) is one simple example of that.

    Yes, UO is all about the freedom to build many different templates and not be forced into a cookie cutter. But you can have that still and put some restrictions in place.

    Bottom line, EA focuses on one skill and balances the game based on that skill. They need to put much much more focus not only on the skill itself, but on how that skill interacts with other skills.
     
  30. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    You can use a talisman of ward removal to remove it. Basically, you make a macro to use your talisman and you hit that macro to remove someone's stone form.
     
  31. Sheridan

    Sheridan Guest

    Some posts were removed for derailing the thread. Please keep on topic here... Leurocian is asking specifically for feedback on Stone Form. This isn't the thread to bring up every other gripe folks have about the game. Thank you.
     
  32. I didn't say it did, the point I was making was that Resisting Spells (in many ways) needs to be doing a HELLUVA lot more than it currently does. The fact that all the specials/spells can be stacked would be a non issue if resist spells actually did what it said on the tin.

    Frenzied Ostards aren't in PvP but even if they were I doubt very much they'd have the chance to kill anyone.
     
  33. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Actually, I think the whole reason Leurocian made this thread was so that we could point out any imbalances now, because SA is at a point in the dev cycle where they can address these issues.

    I think the intent of this thread is to express what possible balance holes would exist in the expressed design for the Stone Form ability. If you see a balance hole bring it up, but don't accuse them of not trying in the very thread they're using to try to catch all possible balance issues.

    On that note, the whole point of the Mysticism Clarification and Imbuing Clarification threads is to find and fix any design holes early in the design process to make SA as good as possible. I want SA to be what AoS could have been...
     
  34. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I agree with Gildar that the immunities need to be scaled based on the total skill in Imbuing/Mysticism. I could see it working like this...

    Stone Form resist chance calculated as follows (as a percentage chance):
    (Imbuing + Mysticism) / 2.4

    A resist check is done any time Poison, Paralysis, Sleep, Bleed, Strangle, or Stat Reduction is targeted on someone in Stone Form.
    An additional resist check is done each time a Poison, Bleed or Strangle Tick happens
    Upon any successful resist check, the resisted effect is canceled.

    If a that equation proves to give too much power at lower levels, the equation to be changed to something like:
    (Imbuing + Mysticism-40) / 2

    Obviously, you can tweak 2 parameters in the equation to change how it scales. Anyway, I think that's a good idea.

    I think the equations Leurocian proposed for calculating Bonus to Resist Cap, Bonus to Resist Buff and Bonus to Damage Increase are fine as is.

    I think the issue of use of healing skill could be addressed in one of two ways.

    One would be to replace the -10 SSI penalty with a -50 Dex penalty
    The other would be to just make stone form not a valid target for bandage use.

    I think the FC penalty should reduce the FC cap by 2 instead of FC. I think it's too easy to get to FC 4 for a FC 2 penalty to work with the immunities this form grants. Poison immunity alone + FC 2 is very difficult to kill.

    I think stealthing should be impossible while in stone form. It just doesn't make sense to be able to sneak around with those heavy stone feet.

    If the form proves to be too powerful under these conditions, I would add a - Stamina Regeneration penalty when people are walking while in stone form. That way people can't chase or run away for long. I'm not sure how doable that is from a coding standpoint, but it seems it would be similar to how stealth works.
     
  35. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    While that makes sense from an RP standpoint, I think that goes way overboard. It would makes the spell nearly useless for dexxer mystics (with crippled, but still effective healing, I think I'd enjoy being a dexxer mystic tank - wouldn't be much for the offensive, but would be able to take quite a few hits).
     
  36. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Should teleport or any recall like spells be allowed to those in stone form?

    Just wondering if a 75/75/75/75/80 legendary mystic/imbuing bush/parry mage elf would be a good template? Something that can not be poisoned, strangled, parad, bled, debuffed or slept. Casting sleep on any other template, spaming boulders and eagles, with a rising colossus in tow sounds like fun.
     
  37. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Teleport would be an issue if the fc -2 is just to fc, and not to the fc cap... but I don't think recall would be.

    Bush/parry would give you less defense than wrestle/parry, and would still let you hold a spellbook instead of needing to hold a 2h weapon.
     
  38. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

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    This form also renders the stone formed character immune to poison, strangle, bleeding, sleep, paralysis, str/dex/int reduction magics, and removes all of these afflictions.

    That right there throws up a lot of red flags to me. Also if you are forced to walk why slow casting and swing speed? your already being put in an awful position having to walk.

    Just to clarify what I mean. When I am forced to walk I am guaranteed to take TONS more damage per second because I am moving slower than everything else. Where am I gaining anything if I must walk and take more damage? It really negates the whole being able to absorb more damage thing.

    Also being immune to and removing bleed sounds reasonable because you cannot bleed if your made of stone this also includes poison BUT paralyze, sleep and stat altering effects should still be possible because simply being made of stone does not mean you cannot sleep be frozen in place or have your stats altered.

    I guess my point here is that I cannot understand why you would slow a character down so hardcore but at the same time allow them to be immune to everything in the game. None of it makes all that much sense.
     
  39. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest


    At 120 Imbuing/Mysticism you get resist buffs that can go up to 5 pts over the caps. That would put your resists at 75/75/75/75/80. That's a considerably improvement to your ability to absorb damage.

    Without the speed penalty the form would definitely be overpowered.
     
  40. kinney42

    kinney42 Seasoned Veteran
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    I don't pvp so I have to ask.......Would any PvPer even consider using a spell that forced them to walk? Seriously, how many PvPers are running around in lich form?
    I can only guess but I would imagine it would be a PvM only spell.
     
  41. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Purely from an RP standpoint, I would think Stone Form would make you more susceptible to sleep or paralysis rather than immune to them.
     
  42. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Wraith Form.
     
  43. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    Wraith form forces you to be unmounted.
    Reaper form forces you to walk.
     
  44. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I was looking at stuff that could break Stone Form and noticed that Gargoyles get a racial ability called Berzerk.

    The SA website says this about Berzerk.
    My first question is what the details are for this special ability?
    At what point can this ability activate?
    Is it voluntary or automatic?
    What kind of speed enhancements does it give? Swing Speed? Mobility?
    What power enhancements does this give?
    What Defense penalties does Berzerk give, and how do they work when a gargoyle is in stone form and becomes berzerk (assuming a stone form gargoyle can go berzerk)?


    I didn't see anything in the human or elf abilities that looked like it would factor in here (well I guess human HPR does, but not much)
     
  45. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Does it really matter if you can't run? You are still on foot. Players don't use Reaper Form because it is not useful in almost every situation.
     
  46. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    In some situations it does. Not the situations you are using wraith, though. I'm assuming you're refering to use of wraith + wither to block a choke point. Run speed doesn't matter in that case becaues you're not moving.

    You can't outrun a pet in forced walk. You can get away from a pet running on foot. I was just trying to point out that distinction.
     
  47. Pickaxe Pete

    Pickaxe Pete Lore Master
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    Sounds neat, but I cannot survive without mounted speeds. Most monsters in UO that we want to fight can kill me in 1-2 hits. Only the ability to 'get away' makes things doable at all.

    Perhaps allow mounts but no casting when in the form. Drop the DI and boost the resists further, to make it significantly different than 'Horrific Beast.' That way it's a viable warrior skill which is badly needed - toe to toe melee is pathetic for the average player compared to archery, barding or taming, etc.
     
  48. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Just a couple of thoughts (ideas) came to my mind on this stone form thing. What if you were able to choose which "solid stone" you could be in stone form? This could require mined granite or ore to be a regeant along with the fertle dirt,blood moss,and garlic. Want strong resistance to physical? Cast "Stone Form: Dull Copper". More resistance to fire? "Stone Form:Bronze"

    Next idea. For those like myself that will be adding the mystic skill to a pure caster,for each of the different type of stone form,allow the magic in that class to do extra damage. "Stone Form:Bronze" would allow my caster to deal more damage with fire type spells. "Stone Form:Shadow Iron" would add damage to cold spells.

    And I have to ask...stone form in other games has been known as a monk type skill/spell,so I ask you...allow those of us that would love to have a unarmed monk type character to do 'real' damage with our fists in this form.please?
     
  49. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Looks cool.

    Since you cannot be mounted, is it possible to add a damage reduction property like swampies?
     
  50. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    I can see a problem here. If you want to remove curses and stuff you just go into stone form, leave it, and you have removed all the stuff without bothering with healing, anatomy, magery, spirit speak, chiv, whatever... Also no talisman or spell will help you against this (ab)use of the skill.

    I think that the form might protect you from the afflictions (after all it's clearly a strong defensive spell), but not remove them if you change into it AFTER you have been hit by them. In this way people who want to use its bonuses have to choose between changing into it BEFORE the fight starts, or not using it.

    As a comparison consider the ninjitsu unicorn form. It grants protection from many poisons, but only if you morph into it BEFORE you are hit from poison. If you morph into it after you have been poisoned it won't cure you. If this is by design or a bug I don't know, but keep it in mind when designing the spell.