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Stop PVP Ganking!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by mycenaen, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. mycenaen

    mycenaen Guest

    Revamp the player Honor system to stop PVP ganking!! Come up with some scheme that will allow a player to use the Honor virtue on another player, and have ONLY the two of them be able to deal significant damage to each other!

    For example, if player A and B are engaged in an Honor fight, both players gain extra resistances towards OTHER players not involved in the Honor fight, thus making all other players suffer a damage 'penalty' to either players!

    Secondly, any player who is issued an Honor challenge may decline, but loses points in the Honor virtue, which will in turn cause them to lose up to 20% of damage to all player characters!

    The loss to Honor points from declining an Honor challenge must be significant enough such that players cannot just expect to go fight monsters for 10 minutes, and then pop back into Felucca thinking that they are still worthy opponents damage-wise!

    Needless to say, if you win an Honor match, you gain in Honor points.

    ---

    These suggestions are rudimentary, and I haven't worked them out in any detail at all! But -something- has to be done about the state of PVP! PVP is great, but it often degenerates into a silly numbers game, where the zerg/griefer/bully guild with the most buddies win over those who have put equal amounts of hard work into their characters and into training their PVP skills! The sensation is very frustrating when a player loses to numbers instead of losing to skill, and I daresay this is the number 1 cause (besides illegal third-party programmes) that cause PVP players to abandon UO!

    Please take all my suggestions above as a rudimentary first step, but please to think about the idea at all! Because right now the situation is rather appalling -

    Honor does not exist in Felucca.
     
  2. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Great idea but I don't believe this will ever fly. I've thought of similar ideas before but ganking is just a part of UO and I think it always will be. It's one of the few things that still makes UO realistic in terms of free will. All I can say is that if you are one of the few who doesn't succumb to joining zerg meat shield guilds, then your best weapon is to use better tactics against your enemy. There are many ways to fight a zerg guild other than actually fighting them in the field. That's my 2 cents.
     
  3. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Sounds to me like you are getting jumped during duals, if so and you are out in the open you deserve to get jumped.

    Find a house and go inside its small, no one can run away, safe from ganks and res kills. Just dont leave immediatly after the fight. You have to wait out the heat of battle.
     
  4. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Agreed. All UO PvP is about these days is numbers. Its all about the gank mentality and if something could be done to address this it would almost certainly result in more people trying PvP at least...
     
  5. Kula

    Kula Guest

    Not like dying matters anyway. The idea is pretty interesting tho, I agree that UO needs to further develop dueling and dueling-ladder capabilities.
     
  6. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Not a bad idea, but what would stop people "honoring" each other then going on a rampage against people who can do negligable dmg to them? Or running around healing other people fighting whilst being largely immune to attack?

    Too vulnerable to exploitation I fear :(
     
  7. mycenaen

    mycenaen Guest

    Hey Divster, good point. I guess one other restriction would be that you won't be able to hit anybody else while you're in an Honor match besides the player you honored. Probably this effect will have to last until one player dies, or leaves the sub-server, or some time restriction of say 5 minutes starting from the acceptance of the Honor challenge.

    I would also suggest that mages' paralyze fields and poison fields won't affect anybody else, and also unfortunately! that they can't cast walls of stone and energy fields. Because, as you say, this is really too open to exploitation so have to be very careful. We can't have "Honored-up" mages running into an enemy area and walling everybody else while suffering penalized damage, for example.

    The same will have to go for healing also I guess. No healing others while you're in an Honor match!
     
  8. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    Sorry....Honor is fine the way it is....if you dont like to die...dont go somewhere you can. Ganking...err teamwork...is part of UO. Has been and always will be. Most PvPers whole goal is to win the fight by any legal means neccessary. If that means going at 1 guy with 2 or 3 people...we do it.

    If in a duel...sounds like you are dueling some classless PvPer and they are not even worth dueling. I leave when **** like that happens and dont let it get too me.
     
  9. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    I dunno, seems kinda silly. If you want "honorable" PvP institute a dueling system.

    no need to fabricate some restrictions to keep Felucca "honorable." Fel was never honorable: kill by any means necessary.

    By a less linear logic, you, actually, would be the one with less skill. The ability to recruit guild members is a skill, even though it's not limited by the 720 skill cap.
    You could also run away and try to separate your assailants to deal with them 1v1
     
  10. So basically the OP wants single player mode in an MMO.

    Right.

    Seems to me someone needs to get out the Playstation for a while.
     
  11. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    I think he is just frustrated like a lot of us are over the state of PvP today. It truly isn't PvP anymore the way the game has turned out.

    I personally have finally had my end with this game. I am closing 5 of my 6 accounts tomorrow and will see what to do with my 6th account.

    If they don't balance PvP properly before the release of SA I will close my last account.

    What do I consider properly?

    1) why is it that when you are on your mage fighting someone you cant cast a summon on them after the initial battle because it flags you gray. This is one of our most powerful level spells and we cant use them. DUMB!!

    2) mages cant cast on the run yet dexers can hit on the run.

    3) mages have to take a penalty to help defend against a dexer by using a -20 mage weapon, yet a dexer gets to not use the magic resist skill because he can use petals and pots and apples and chiv spells.

    4) mages para doesnt work against someone with 120 resist yet nervestrike does.

    Basically dexers templates have almost no game play penalties but mages do.
     
  12. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Your post is totally off topic go whine about your lack of mage skills elsewhere :next:

    On topic I still feel that while interesting this system would be too prone to exploitation. If you are that concerned about having an honorable dual arrange it with your opponent with a third party in a private house where events can be controlled. This is no real need to divert game resources to making a dualling system when the players themselves can organise it. Yew gate pvp and champ spawn pvp are not the places to seek this form of pvp combat i'm afraid :(
     
  13. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    the only issues in pvp are tamers and still finding a way to balance out archery.
     
  14. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Just had to address the two idiotic comments below ;) :

    How funny. Forget actually being good at the game, if you can zerg it up your clearly a very skilled player. Btw, when we talk about skill we're meaning player skill stupid miner its got rock all to do with the 720 skill cap lol

    Yes you can win a fight when outnumbered it does happen but you are relying on your opponents being inept with very little of a clue how to PvP so that you can pick them off.


    Wow... Conner proving again he should refrain from posting about PvP topics.

    How can you have a single player mode against another player? lol

    Fail?
     
  15. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Open field PvP is part of what makes UO a great game but if there was a small area of the game where players could engage in more structured combat and know that they were not going to be ganked/griefed it would encourage more PvP and bring in new blood.

    Perhaps an area for this would be more appropriate than using virtue gump for it?

    The dueling pit in Jhelom has been mentioned and I think that could be awesome if implemented correctly!
     
  16. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Because 1 should be greater than or equal to 2? That makes sense.

    If you lose once in a certain situation you could just be unlucky. If you lose all the time in a certain situation it means your fundamental strategy sucks.
    (not meaning "you" as you specifically but in a general sense)

    If the goal is to win a fight, who's smarter, the one who shows up alone or the one who brings 20 friends?

    If making a zerg guild is easy, why don't you go make one? Then you wont have this problem.
     
  17. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Your putting words in my mouth here :)

    I didn't say 1 should be greater or equal to 2 and I didn't say creating a zerg guild was an easy thing to do however who needs to create a zerg guild when you can just join one?

    Wheres the skill that?

    In any case, it doesn't take skill to build up a Zerg guild, it takes ALOT of time and a lot of networking =/

    If your for free flowing, fair and skill based PvP encounters then you will support the OPs idea or offer an alternative to what we have at the moment. If you prefer to run around with large groups wiping out any opposition you can find with little or no skill involved then i'm sure you'll probably oppose it.
     
  18. Well you can always go to the Corrupted Forest, at the Necromancer Arena. Only need to be in a warring guild. That way your sure no one will butt in. Maybe even set up an event between the two guilds and make an event out of it.

    I am not too sure the one guy will feel safe in the other person's friends house.
     
  19. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    I would totally love some kind of dueling system. Something activatable by a gump that you can do anywhere, on any ruleset.

    Say I'm out farming in... uh... *shrugs* Shame, and some guy pisses me off. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say "I wish to duel thee" or something rather than "Go to fel"? Either one or both of you expects an ambush when someone says "go to fel", and if you don't you sometimes get it anyway. Or if you want to train up some skills in a safe enviornment with a friend... Lots of reasons why it would be cool.

    Maybe even have the ability to set rules, like whether or not poison/pots are allowed and all that nonsense (though I personally say all or nada).

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Does your Playstation not have plugs for more than one controller? Mine does. Being able to pick and choose your opponent, or limiting combat to a single opponent with no one else being able to jump in is more like Mortal Combat than UO.

    Oh, and yeah to answer your question, you failed.


    Wow, Mitsura showing he can create a post full of ignorance...

    Yet again...
     
  21. Splup

    Splup Guest

    So the fact that I don't like lets say dueling some PvP char with my champkiller or peacenecro, means that I need to choose between fighting against overpowered temp compared to mine or losing my honor...

    If you want to fight 1on1 ask someone to duel you at farms or house etc., otherwise felucca should stay as a free battle ground.
     
  22. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Don't leave Trammel?...la
     
  23. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    You seem to be unfamilier with the term "Single Player". As hard as I am finding that to accept allow me to enlighten you: Single player means Player vs CPU... This is not what the OP is requesting. That is why you have failed. You failed to understand what was being discussed and jumped in with a totally unconstructive post.

    Quite why you then go on to start babbling about my playstation having control slots and whatever else I do not know...heh..i do not own a playstation nor did i reference any such thing in my post...


    :blushing:

    Anyway, you then proceed to get personal talking about ignorance which is fine but I think your displaying the height of ignorance posting in threads like this when you don't have a proper grasp of the fundamentals of PvP. No offence.
     
  24. mycenaen

    mycenaen Guest

    Hi all, thanks for all the replies, I just want to clarify a few things.

    When I first posted, my idea was not necessarily to implement an idea for the purpose of setting up duels between 2 players. I agree with many of the posters here that if I wanted to do that I could arrange some sort of event-like thing or agreement.

    My idea initially was to try to stop the ganking problem. I call it a problem because I see it as one, but I'll get to those of you who don't see it as a problem. The problem is that in a game where accumulation of good PVP items and increasing your PVP skill seems to be two of the main satisfactions available to the PVP-minded, it seems frustrating sometimes that even the hard work that you've put into these two areas (equipment and skill) can be negated in an instant if you're constantly being dismounted and set upon by up to two to three times your numbers in the enemy guild. That is to say, up to a certain numerical point, however godly your character may be in terms of equipment, and you in terms of skill, some part of that becomes negated simply because 2-3 times your number is hitting on you and your guildmates.

    So the question then becomes one of what we want the game to be: one about improving your equipment and your PVP skill, or one about being able to network together a large number of people. At this point I will not deny that being able to network together many people is not a skill: in fact, it is a difficult and time-consuming process. However, that being said, I just felt that I wanted to log onto the game to test and challenge my own game-playing abilities, rather than my networking abilities.

    Perhaps the definition of a game has changed with the MMORPG, because the human (and thus the networking) factor becomes invariably involved. However, that being said, I still do believe that there should be laws against anti-competitiveness even in a society of humans. In real-life economies, we regulate against monopolies that crush others by virtue of size and market dominance. In sports, we limit the number of players on the field, so that it does not turn into a game whereby the club owner with the most finances simply hires more and more and more people until his team swamps the opposite team.

    To bring the analogy back to UO: zerg/griefing tactics do not promote game-play. They exploit one aspect of the MMORPG, that is the involvement of human society, to crush the other aspects of the MMORPG, ie. player skills development and equipment accumulation. Without some way, or any way, of promoting competitive, but fair, game play, the situation is going to repeat over and over again. Generally speaking, given equal skills and equipment, the larger team will crush the smaller team.* What is going to go through the heads of the smaller team is that: the work I put into equipment and skills has been negated - this is a game about numbers.

    So at the end of the day, it's back to the old question: do we want to play a PVP game that is about numbers? I think many PVPers will say no, because PVP is that extreme field of testing one's skill and in some sense, equipment, rather than to test one's networking ability.

    Even competitive play must be fair in order to remain as play, and not just become night after night of grief.

    So my initial idea was not originally meant to slant towards the implementation of a duel system, but it was one possible way I thought that can mitigate the effect of a smaller team meeting a larger team. Numbers will still matter because the members of the larger team will still be able to hit the smaller, but just at penalized rates. In some way, this will mitigate the effect of Numbers in the equation that is PVP = numbers + skill + equipment, making PVP more and more about equipment and skill. With regards to that, I would say even the recent changes to the faction artifacts and doom artifacts help to mitigate the effect of equipment in the equation, making Skill the most important in the equation.

    So the question remains open to everyone: without a regulated system, what game it is that you want to play: Office Politics Online? or Ultima Online?


    ----


    Thanks Splup for this point. With regards to this, I actually wanted a separate system for PVP Honor rather than one single one for PVP and PVM Honor, but I didn't want to over-complicate the system at first. Also, if PVM Honor was left untouched, I didn't know what concept or virtue my system would have gone under, so I left it under one system as the Honor virtue, but thanks for bringing it up that PvM characters will suffer under this system.


    -----


    As for anyone who contends that ganking is part of PVP, well my only response can only be that it has ultimately proved for me a largely unsatisfying experience. This is to the extent that I rarely even go hunting for PvP equipment from the PvM Bosses anymore, because I know that no matter how great my equipment gets, I still won't be able to survive being dismounted, deathstriked, and having 2-3 mages and a dragon continually dumping on me and biting me. It makes me want to stop playing totally because, as may have become evident from the content of this post, I did not originally join this game to play a "create the largest organization of humans" contest. But on this point I guess I really have no defense, since it is my personal view. However, that being said, the logic that allows for ganking as a fair means of play only eventually leads to the rational of joining the largest available zerg guild, hence making it larger, or suffering as one of the smaller "zerged" guilds. The logical conclusion of this scenario is the eventual disappearance of smaller groups under the dominance of the (single) largest group. (If you think this is a theoretical possibility, come to Formosa.) The end result is? The end of PVP on that shard.

    This situation has already caused one of my buddies to stop playing the game, and the rest of us who are still sticking around to be spending our time having to write Stratics posts rather than kicking some butt :/

    ----


    *This statement made with many caveats, but hence I speak generally here.
     
  25. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    PvP was not any where near about ganking before AoS like it is today.

    Kind of sad, because IMHO PvP was the most balanced and at its best just before AoS.
     
  26. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Wow OP, I didn't read your follow up post because I don't feel like reading a novel of nonsensical dribble.

    UO is group pvp. If you want to 1 v 1 come to great lakes with the other kiddies that like to spam weaken and harm on top of wrong roof for 5 hours on end.

    Zerging doesn't really matter. If you can get 8-10 guildmates that are as good at UO as you think you are then you can pretty much annihilate any opposing zerg using proper field tactics.

    My bet is you run around on a 1/2 ass dexer with a few archer friends expecting people to fight you 1 v 3. Instead, you get dismounted and mortal spammed while someone else casts EXP/FS.

    all the while your guildmates are probably trying to shoot someone with their bows only to have 2/3 arrows get parried and the third miss.

    Learn to play mages for group PvP. You only need a couple of archers for mortals and dismount.
     
  27. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    I was, pardon me, I was replying to both you and the OP as if you two were the same person. If i talked about something that you were not speaking of i was probably replying to someone else's argument and didn't differentiate between you two.

    Even still, even if it was easy to build a zerg guild (managing a large group is never easy), shouldn't the person who put more time and effort in building up a group have the advantage? If it's time that's required to get a group then the person without the group wants to have advantages without spending the time to get it.

    Don't make Felucca something it's not. If you want fair PvP you should duel. Felucca is and always was a free-for-all facet. If you want to win 2v1, make sure you're on the "2" side, or retreat until you can even the odds and make it 2v2. If you consider it beneath you to pvp with others, or you continue fighting when the odds are not in your favor, just be prepared to die due to the simple mathematics of the situation.
     
  28. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Ganking is lame. Disrupting duels is lame. It's even more lame when the big guilds do the latter with impunity.

    However, to attempt to use game mechanics to obviate any of those issues is just bizarre to me.

    That's how PvPers are, that's how Felucca is. Once upon a time, the entire game was like that. Now, however, you have the option to not go to Felucca, and the worst that'll happen is that Fame and resource farming will take longer, and you'll have to buy your power scrolls.

    The idea of a PvP-based system of gaining the Virtue of Honor was put forth by the manufacturers many years ago, but there were many complaints about their proposal. And at any rate, the abilities you gained had nothing whatsoever to do with stopping ganking.

    -Galen's player
     
  29. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    The problem is you're assuming that both sides are playing for the same reasons. You're trying to play a semi-orderly sport. They're just trying to murder loot and win. If you want to play a semi-orderly sport, arrange a group to do so. You're trying to get people in an anarchical environment to play by your rules.

    The best thing about UO is the amount of freedom it grants the players.
     
  30. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    i stoped reading about half way though but thought i would say this.

    The guild with the larger numbers truely is more skill. I mean you have what 720 skill points and the 3 of them attacking you has 2160 skill points.:) . I agree that ganking sucks. But i wouldnt want to see anything done about it. Honorable combat should be when you ask person a if they would like to fight 1v1 and they accept then you both go to a place where it would be difficult for others to interfer.
     
  31. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    half the time a guild im with gets called zerg its when 3 ppl try to raid are 10 man spawn shoudl we lose said spawn becouse someone requested Honorable combat.