1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

"succumbed to that human"

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    The above line, from one of the fictional pieces regarding the Strangers, has been bugging me.

    The very first piece of fiction about the Strangers had genocidal implications.

    Because genocide is clearly evil under the vast, vast majority of circumstances (barring something like wiping out all the orcs, and even that some would object to), this basically tipped me over the fence. I had held off (or rather Galen the character held off) from attacking the strangers initially, and in fact spent long periods of time talking to them and giving them stuff, to no avail.

    When I saw the genocidal implications and casual murder of the first post, I thought, "OK, they are evil after all" and have been attacking them ever since.

    If they are evil, then "succumbed to that human" probably refers to Lord British. We have "succumbed" to his teachings of Virtue and Right, or at least some of us have.

    But if I'm wrong...."succumbed to that human" refers, perhaps, to Andrew? (Apologies to those of you who have thought of this a long time ago, I know at least some of you have.)

    This is significantly bolstered by the reports, if they are accurate!, that certain of the new Stranger's attacks don't hit players at all, but just pets and "wild" monsters.

    So question then.....What's with the genocide and casual murder of the original post?

    One way to explain it....These "people" aren't evil per se, and may even be opposed to the Shadowlords, but are so intensely focused on their mission and see us as ants, or as, say, cattle.

    If this is the case, my character will treat them as evil. Why on earth wouldn't he? Sure they may hate the Shadowlords, but they are willing to murder innocents in pursuit of their goals. And not with some solemn, sad, "I hate that I have to do this" crap, but with glee. That's still evil by most definitions. Definitely by mine, and definitely (even moreso!) by Galen's in-character.

    If they work for, say, the Time Lord? Then the Time Lord's rather disappointing.

    Maybe The Guardian?

    Then why genocidal implications at first, followed by a fairly restrained area effect attack?

    *sighs* None of this is adding up.

    Is that good storytelling, or bad storytelling?

    Time will tell.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,967
    Likes Received:
    5,453
    Facinating thought....... My only observation is ...... they say "humans"..... but my character isn't human..... He's Drow..... definitely NOT human...... So while they wipe out all the humans...... what happens to the elves?
     
  3. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,209
    Likes Received:
    9
    thats fine, my char is a worshipped demi-god. He's been collecting blue boxes since they arrived on this plane and was collecting heads long before they arrived.
     
  4. love2winalot

    love2winalot Guest

    Yesterday i wen to luna with my human charater. No pets. Did not see Andrew, and no dagger. I did nothing but watch from the 2nd floor by the Inn. I still got paralized and killed. I think it is just totally random. :stretcher:
     
  5. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    4,331
    Likes Received:
    238
    I think the devs subscribe to the "let's just pretend elves never happened to UO" school of thought =D Your just a funny colored human.
     
  6. Ozymandies

    Ozymandies Guest

    Recall that there are 4 factions.

    These are the evil machinations of the Minax faction.

    "that human" was Andrew, servant of the shadowlords.

    The "Great Lord" is her Seneschal, forget his name. Lord Grumpy or something.

    Within the Void is either Minax or her spawn, Exodus.

    Brachyion is the Wisp dude, champion of the Council of Mages.

    Who will lead the True Brits? Dawn, of course.

    OZ
     
  7. Ozymandies

    Ozymandies Guest

    Ah yes, the drow elves. Did anyone notice that the vanguard controllers are drow elf chicks? They wear cloaks that are elf only, but disappear upon death. Sounds familiar. They come in the middle of the night, have those special swords, etc. Only they leave human corpses?

    OZ
     
  8. Wiseguy

    Wiseguy Guest

    I think they are after the dragons that succumb to humans, ie dragons that are tamed. That should explain why all the dragons get slaughtered. They may be another race of elder dragons coming back to reclaim the world from their own ie other dragons. Humans are just side annoyances.
     
  9. As in reality, there is no simplistic black and white, good and evil. If you must categorize, I would say everyone is chaotic neutral. Obviously, these Strangers versus the Shadowlords are part of the Devs' efforts to revitalize Factions.

    They are neither good nor evil. They're just playing their role in the greater scheme of things, as are you (the player characters in UO).

    Galen's player, you seem to prefer a clear cut good vs evil (whether this preference is confined to UO, or real life, I do not presume to know). From personal experience, there is no such thing as objective good or evil in the (real, and by extension, all fictional) world(s). There are only points of view, intentions, actions and consequences.

    Perhaps the most closely related, but rather more helpful way of looking at it, is not a 'good' vs 'evil' system, but a 'ethical' vs 'unethical' system. (Ethics is not 'morals', which is another illusion; ethics refers to doing unto others as you would like others to do unto you - obviously, the appropriate ethical path of action varies significantly across individuals, which is how it should be).

    A yet higher, and in fact the highest, version of ethics, is what is known as CosmoEthics - that which is for the greatest benefit of all beings involved, ultimately all beings in the Cosmos.

    For those interested, check out the work of the International Academy of Consciousness.
     
  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    UO is not real life, it is fiction. And it is fantasy fiction to boot.

    In the context of UO it is very clear that we have clear cut good/evil lines. Hence the Karma system. (And let me restate that we do not lose Karma from fighting these Strangers.)

    Fantasy fiction nearly always has clear cut good-evil lines.

    -Galen's player
     
  11. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    To people who follow the belief that race doesn't come with inherent evil that cannot be lost no matter what.
    To the Strangers, humans might be like Orcs and inherently evil, or like insects and simply too annoying and worthless to think they deserve life.


    Because you're trying to make it two sides. There are already 5 sides that are knowingly organized amongst "humans" (humans, elves, and other roleplayed races) - TB, CoM, SL, Min, and Tokuno. There are also at least two sides that are knowingly organized amongst non-humans (Ophidians and Terrathans). There are also numerous other non-human organizations that may or may not be on the same side, and may or may not have enough intelligence to even truly be on any side.

    Good and Evil is not a simply distinction.
     
  12. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    No, it's not clear. The Royal Council is supposed to, presumably, be a "good guy". But they have performed acts that are very much evil (based on the idea that being Virtuous makes one "good").
     
  13. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    592
    You know, technically, those of us who follow the virtues might be considered to have "succumbed to that human", Lord British.....


    Just a thought....
     
  14. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Umm...

    That is a completely inappropriate response, because it doesn't challenge that the duality exists. Just challenges which side of it a specific group of people are on.

    -Galen's player
     
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Yep.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. Sunrise

    Sunrise Guest

    aye alot of good points here. But how about this point from old school UO.

    If they are not your friend or in your guild...Just kill em all? :D

    I don't know these strangers but they have good loot so......
     
  17. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    4
    I suppose it doesn't challenge the duality without more clarification...

    You can have good karma, yet act against the virtues. Kill lots of monsters, then go brag about it and call people losers who fail when trying instead of helping them. (the Royal Council fits into this category, and was what I intended to point out with my prior statement [though after re-reading what I did say, I see that I utterly failed to make that even the slightest bit clear]).

    You can have low karma, yet act according to the virtues by using necromantic spells, or stealing things in jest and returning them immediately.

    Two systems of "good" and "evil" that are within UO that do not follow the same guidelines. That makes it at least 4 sides.