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Suggestion - Lower Movement Speed Caps by 10 - 20%

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I've posted this many times that I don't think "speed hacking" is the issue that so many think it is. As I have posted many times, I don't speed hack, and in hundreds of hours of pvp I have never seen anyone move faster than I do, unless I was lagging, and it is pretty easy for me to tell when I am experiencing lag. I've also never seen anyone on foot outrun or even move as fast as anyone who is mounted, or even move faster than they should while on foot, not even once.

    Which leads to the question, if "speed hacking" really isn't the issue that everyone says it is, then why are so many people complaining about it? Maybe there is an issue here, but it isn't "speed hacking"? Maybe the real problem is that the movement caps are too high, and maximum character speeds need to be reduced?

    So what do I think the benefits of an overall reduction of character speed by 10 - 20% would be? Well it would hopefully mean that those who are experiencing slight slow downs in movement rates that they might not even be aware of on the classic client, wouldn't experience those. It would also hopefully mean that people using the classic client on older hardware would be at less of a disadvantage.

    So in essence this is about levelling the playing field somewhat between the classic and enhanced clients, as the enhanced client handles lag better than the classic client. And maybe that would lessen the number of unwarranted complaints being made about "speed hacking". I'm not talking about a drastic change here, but hopefully a change that would make a significant difference in the general perception of issues around movement.

    Discuss.
     
  2. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    How on earth does the movement speed cap imitate a speed hack? This is complete nonsense like most of what else you post.
     
  3. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Would be interesting if they would have tied speed to dexterity of characters.

    As for lowering the servercaps, no idea.
    Might be good by levelling the field.
    might be an internal problem with he packets then?

    Devs just don't want it maybe?
     
  4. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I would respectfully request that the mods not allow specifically targeted trolling to control the flow of information and discussion on Stratics. Threads on cheating, and my posts and threads in particular, have been specifically targeted by trolls attempting to limit and control the discussion of all the issues around cheating in UO. By locking every thread that gets trolled in this fashion you are giving the trolls the victory.

    I would respectfully ask that you take the extra few minutes, and delete trolls and hand out suspensions and warnings as you would judge appropriate, but not lock the threads and allow the trolls to control the dialogue here on Stratics.
     
  5. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    I would respectfully ask that everyone's opinion be allowed, regardless of what Llewen thinks about it.
     
  6. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    errr.... sorry Llewen, but No.
     
  7. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Slow people will be slower. fast people will still be faster than slow people makes no difference in pvp. In PVM monsters will be running people over 20% faster as monsters have no other cap than there own internal cap.
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    The point that I am making is that people using the classic client are seeing other people moving faster than they do, and are automatically assuming it's a "speed hack". However, with the classic client it doesn't take much lag, and it can be from any one one of several sources, or a combination thereof, to result in a slow down in movement rate that the player might not detect, but which would result in another character moving faster than their character does.

    I may be wrong, but this seems to me to be one plausible explanation as to why there are so many accusations of speed hacking. It has already been established that the top movement rate of the classic client and the enhanced client are the same, the differences between the two lie in the auto-avoid code in the enhanced client, and the fact that the enhanced client handles lag more intelligently than the classic client.

    And as I have already posted many times, in hundreds of hours of pvp'ing on the enhanced client, with hundreds of specific instances where it would be very easy to see if one player was moving faster than another, I have never, not even once, seen anyone move faster than I do, unless I was experiencing some form of lag (which doesn't happen very often with me), and I certainly haven't had the good fortune to pvp only against perfectly clean players.

    As far as I am concerned the perception of the "speed hacking" issue is largely due to the classic client's poor handling of all forms of lag and latency. Perhaps lowering the movement cap for the clients might lessen the impact of lag and latency on the classic client.
     
  9. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    When exactly were you a UO developer again?
     
  10. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Llewen, I think you are right that it would make things better. The perceived speed hack due to lag would be reduced. I think this is exactly why in other games, running speed is slower. UO is a very fast game in this regard.

    But I don't think it's possible in the 2D client. Or, better to say, it might look like crap, while also being very limited in where the percentages of reduction would fall to be workable. I'm not really sure about this, just my first thoughts.
     
  11. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    For those who don't understand this, if you've ever run across a server line and get bounced back, that's a similar effect. When someone else sees you do this, they don't see the bounce back, because they get the info as it should be. They just see you stop or slow down, maybe pop just a little. But you see yourself keep running, then bounce back to where the server says you are.

    This is a similar thing, only reversed. You are lagged and slow, you don't see someone else running as fast as they are in the game (legally) until the server suddenly adjusts your view. That looks like a pop or jump, and doesn't look quite right. Some people think this is a speed hack.

    (I'm not saying speed hacks don't exist, I know they do. I've seen someone using it under optimum circumstances. I guess they were testing it out, or setting it up, maybe. We were all alone, I had no lag at all, I was stealthed, he thought he was alone. And he would walk about 4 steps then pop ahead about the same distance, repeatedly.)
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well that's the real question. It would depend on whether movement rate reductions due to lag in the classic client are proportional or linear (can't think of a better word for it at this point). But that I mean when you move slower in the classic client due to lag, are you moving 1% slower, or are you moving 1 tile per millisecond slower (that's just an example, I have no idea what the exact numbers would be).

    As for whether it would "look like crap" or not, I don't think so. Until fairly recently I don't think the average managed to move as fast as the movement cap allowed, and that was certainly the case in the early years. That is one of the reasons why the quality of your hardware and connection made a huge difference in how well you did at the game in the early years of UO.

    The point being that many players played the game at well below the level of 20% lower than the current maximum movement rate for years, and it certainly didn't effect how the game looked to them.
     
  13. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm guessing that what you are describing was from a few years ago. I have no doubt that historically speed hacks have made a measurable difference in movement rates in the game, but around three years ago, maybe four, movement speed was capped server side. I think that people have continued using speed hacks since then, but the most they have done is compensate for lag. They won't allow you to move faster than the maximum movement rate anymore.
     
  14. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    It already takes too damn long to get anywhere in UO and there is little to do along the way. Long gone are the days when you leave town and can find stuff on the way to where you are going. You don't stop to chop wood for a bit, and then start harvesting hinds, before you arrive at the dungeon to hunt spiders or elementals.

    I feel most accusations of speedhacking are probably false.

    I used to think half of everyone we fought against speedhacked, because while I had a nice fast computer I was using the on-board video card in a 3d game. As you can imagine video lag was horrible. Practically everyone outran me or could run circles around me using their classic client which took a much less beefy system to run.

    I went out and bought an inexpensive pci express 2 video card for like 65 bucks and all my video lag went away and suddenly I am outrunning people and THEY are probably accusing me of cheating!

    After my upgrade I was able to see with new eyes the battlefield and everyoen more or less I think does not speed hack. There are 1 or 2 guys who I still suspect highly for suspicious things they have done. But the most, I will say, to me they do not appear to be speedhacking.

    Enforcing hardware issues in my mind is several people who "offered" these types of programs to me in the past, and when I dug for more info, it was only a simple overclocking program to make your computer run faster. But they were calling it "speed hack".

    I am all for eliminating "speedhacking" if it truly exists. But if "speedhacking" is actually just having a faster pc, video card, connection, or overclocking - I'm sorry, your best option is to upgrade your system. You wouldn't go head to head in the latest fps shooter using a Pentium and a crappy video card..... yet with UO's old classic client, plenty of people DO still play in super old systems that frankly, cavemen point and laugh at.

    Now if you have a beefy pc, video card, connection etc and someone is still able to run you down.... I'd be suspect. But there's none of that going on my server right now, maybe 1 or 2 people I suspect. I'd wager even people with lower end systems will still claim they have a "fast pc and connection", so it'd be hard to judge this overall as players, especially passionate ones, tend to shall we say.. "embellish" a little too much.

    In summary, NO, do not limit overall movement speed because it already takes too long to get anywhere. But DO eliminate speedhacking and auto pot/bandage/etc scripters.

    Players should have a maximum amount they can move in a given time.
     
  15. A Bad Player

    A Bad Player Guest

    I agree. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a rate that everyone would run the same at. The only counter argument I see is that people like having a speed advantage over someone.

    However, who knows just how low you would have to set the bar. Would dexxers get an advantage because as a mage I count on being able to move in a way to throw the dexxer off while so I can cast. Slower speed = they move less tiles in the wrong direction = I have a harder time getting spells off. I don't know if that makes sense, but I can clarify if necessary.
     
  16. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmmm, you can recall or gate instantly to most places. People had no problems getting around in the old days when all the honest people did move quite a bit slower than they do today. Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just don't think a 10 - 20% drop in maximum movement rates would be that big a deal, and it might solve some problems.
     
  17. Mehelenya

    Mehelenya Guest

    Feel free to walk through all Facets, but i want to be able to run / ride away from Monsters, special Paragons. The movement is already slow enough.
     
  18. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    This is a real constructive input.:thumbup1:
     
  19. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    In addition to a lowering of speed making lag less noticable, it would also make those truly cheating more obvious, as artificial jumps of distance would be even more obvious.

    I wonder if that's a factor behind some of the people dismissing it out of hand, and making fun of the poster?
     
  20. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    If you have posted this many times before - im sure people has read it and didnt agree, and yet found out its not worhy to reply. But yet u keep on.

    Lower movement wont help anything, except it take longe to run from a-b.

    That will be a stepback, and maybe the fall of ultima. They need to focus forwards, and beat the scriptors. Mostly the servers are lag free, so its somewhere from their isp to your computer its lagging - its nothing that EA can do about that except upgrade their own lines, they cant upgrade ur lines.
     
  21. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    How can you be constructive about such an idiotic idea? Lowering movement speed would accomplish absolutely nothing in terms of speed hacks. Period.
     
  22. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    So others can state thier ideas on how this may or may not help but all you can do is troll.

    One person was thinking outside the box and came up with an idea.
    It may not stop the hackers but it may also make it easier to catch. That would be a good thing.
     
  23. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    How exactly does this make them easier to catch? Let's call the movement speed at its current cap 100. Say it is reduced by 20%, making the new cap 80. Now let's say someone running a speedhack is able to boost their movement speed 10% past the current cap.

    Prior to movement speed reduction:
    No Speedhack: 100 Speedhack: 110

    After movement speed reduction:
    No speedhack: 80 Speedhack: 88

    No matter what they do to movement speed it will always be proportional to someone using a speedhack, meaning the person using a speedhack will be running proportionally the same amount faster than the person not speedhacking. So as I already stated, this is a ridiculous idea.
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    I think your 10% is way low. Do you really think a 10% increase would give you that much of an advantage in PvP or let someone skip entire screens. Speed caps were put in and it did not change anything for the speedhackers so lowering the speed cap will not change the speed of hackers but will make them stand out even more.
     
  25. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    The idea wasn't proposed to "fix" hacking. Nor was it to make it easier to spot, really, although that would be related. It's to slow the game down so that players don't see what looks like hacking but isn't. The result would be to vastly reduce false suspicions, which would reduce bad feelings about "rampant" cheating in this regard, feelings based on those false suspicions.

    But I agree that slowing players down would be a bad solution. We're all used to our speed, and at this point it would be like wading through mud. But if UO ever were to go full view 3D (not going to happen in this game), that would be the time to take a long look at speeds.
     
  26. A Bad Player

    A Bad Player Guest

    You guys keep saying "cap" but the reason speeders give any advantage is because of the high cap. Speed programs don't push you over the server side allowable speed. Thats why they call it A CAP.

    The speed is set at a level that most people aren't able to reach on average computers/connections without enhancement. No speeder can break the allowable speeds, its a packet pusher just speeding up the process it attaches to. For anyone who has ever run CE, you've obviously noticed that the overall gameplay is a little quicker and by this I mean other players on your screen, not just you.

    If they lower the cap to a level everyone can hit without enhancements and crazy connections, then it voids any advantage of speeders. A cap is a cap. You won't go over it no matter what its at through use of a speeder.
     
  27. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    D.U.M.B.

    so you make everyone 10-20% slower, but the program(s) that shall not be named will still make your movement crisper, thus faster.


    You must not understand how they work.


    Besides the fact, it would be kind of annoying to move that much slower.
     
  28. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Two people that understand what I was trying to say in the OP. You may be right Trebr, it may be a bad idea in terms of people's game play experience. But my feeling is with a small adjustment like 10 - 20% (20% might be too much) people would adjust pretty quickly and that wouldn't be an issue. But I may be wrong. :)
     
  29. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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  30. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    you cant recall in and out of fel t2a and many other locations. there are plenty of instances where a player would find themselves doing several minutes of running or manuvering to get somewhere.

    i agree with fixing cheating and speedhacking but making players move slower is a bad idea imo as it adds unecessary tedium.
     
  31. A Bad Player

    A Bad Player Guest

    Simple yes or no question, is your character the only thing that has faster animations when running programs? (answer is no)

    Its a packet pusher, not a code breaker.
     
  32. This is an excellent point that the OP is bringing here. Lowering the speed cap would bring a much needed balance in PVP.

    Lets say I have the most dominating archer template UO has ever seen. I meet an other archer that is faster than me. My character is so performant that 9 times out of 10, I get my opponent redlined.

    But he is able to constantly run offscreen before dying and heal up before coming back.

    Then comes that one time that the RNG goes to my opponents advantage. I am redlined and there is no way to outrun that guy that is so fast he is able to run circles around me.

    I die and of course, I get to hear how much I suck at the game and that I should uninstall or return to Trammel.

    Any honest player that ever pvped will tell you that speed is what gives the biggest advantage in the game. Proof is that on some pvp oriented websites, I saw multiple screenshots with illegal 3rd party speed enhancing software running. Thoses were screenshots of players knowned to be the best pvpers. If speed did not give that much of an advantage, why would they use such software?

    Llwen is correct when saying that lowering speed cap by 10-20% would help to level the field.
     
  33. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I think most people would adjust, in time. I know I would miss it. The speed reminds me of my younger years when I was a fast runner and loved to run. I get that old feeling of the wind in my hair and on my face, the surroundings moving fast past me. It's part of that freedom feeling we get from UO. But if they chose to do it, and I know it would be for the good of the game, I'd just adjust and accept it. I know, after a while, it would start to feel the same as the old speed.