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Suggestion: Seperate the skill bars.

Discussion in 'Project: Gorgon Discussion Hall' started by awollsd, Sep 25, 2014.

  1. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    Currently if you set the same combat skill on both bars they mirror each other and there is no way to use more than 6 skills. I BEG you to please change this.

    Example: if I want to run only druid. I would like to be able to put attack skills on top hotkey bar and healing skills on bottom.

    Currently: If I set druid to both bars and I set toxin ball on slot one top bar it auto puts it into slot one bar 2 aswell....
     
  2. Citan

    Citan Project: Gorgon Developer
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    Sorry, that's one of the difficult strategic elements of the game. You can't get more than 6 abilities from one skill, intentionally. You really need to have two skills leveled. It's supposed to be a hard choice to figure out how to set up your character. With another half-dozen slots (or in some cases, like fire magic, even one or two more slots!) many skills become wildly more powerful.
     
  3. Gorgonzola

    Gorgonzola Adventurer

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    Interesting. I made a related suggestion however my suggestion had nothing to do with having more skill slots , but was more focused on simplifying the "two skill bars" design.

    My reasoning was that being able to place a few more skills of the same skill line would not make much difference, because all abilities have a cost, and many abilities sort of replace each other. Now I can see... maybe it's got to do with the equipment? Basically skill damage output are somewhat "multiplied" by the gear. A top level player will try to use gear that's 100% attuned to their main skill and with great mods, so each additonal ability slot would add another "multiplied" ability on the bar whereas with two pools of skills (2 skill bars), they both have to share the available mods on pieces of gear or at least limits the number of "augmented" abilities on the skill bar.

    Hmm that's a shame though. I do feel from a usability perspective, that it's a little awkward to have to manage 2 skill bars.

    * Switching between skills sets. Perhaps not for the "minmaxing" oriented players but players like me have fun switching between Fire and Sword Shield for example. Currently this requires right clicking weapons and perhaps a few pieces of armor, and then clicking that super tiny "<" sign, picking a skill, perhaps also having to mousewheel through the list, then do the same for the 2nd skill bar.

    It would be interesting if there was a way somehow to associate skillbars with certain equipment. But i can't think of a straightforward solution that does not add unnecessary complexity (like storing/restoring skill sets and equipped items with F1/F2 etc).

    It's hard to explain ..the current system works reasonably well. It's just that .. somehow.. I do'nt feel at home. Also it is a little un-esthetic for lack of better word to have this big slab of 2x6 slots. Where a slightly longer bar on one row would just fit nicer in the overall layout. But maybe that will be solved by the super slick UI concepts I've seen on Facebook.

    Come to think of it, have you considered making a ability pop à-la Guild Wars 2? This would be super handy > you right click the ability bar maybe , andthen when you click a slot it would show a popup with just the abilities for that skill, that you can pick from. I think that would help with switching more often based on context ingame. Definitely not urgent though.
     
  4. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    hhmm idk I don't see it as a "difficult strategic element" it's fairly easy to choose what 6 skills you'ld want with a 2 combat skill set up. but locking players out of a single combat skill set up is imo counter intuitive. this is a classless system players can pick and chose what they want and change as they wish then find out nvm can only pick/chose if I pick 2 different skills....

    you say it could make it OP you gav fire an example and gorgonzola meantioned because of gear. but how would it make it OP to allow someone to go pure fire?
    With how it is currently skills are really weak without gear mods for them skills and you can't wear two sets of gear so you'll either have DD gear or AOE gear or a mix of both that reduces each.

    So you're saying it'ld be op to have additional un-modded skills from a combat skill? or it'ld be op to have skills reduces to around half because you're splitting the mod's? I don't see it. :)

    I think lack of gear mods would balance it out.
     
  5. Gorgonzola

    Gorgonzola Adventurer

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    Well awollsd keep in mind there are also powerful utility skills like mzee, fear, ... so those don't need much enhancements and you could pretty much be a full group with strong damage skills and utility skills from various classes.

    I think limiting abilities on the bars to 2 skill trees makes sense. What I suggsted is having one longer bar where I can place any skills from 2 skill trees, and yes, if I want to use 10 fire skills, then it shouldnt be too OP (as awollsd) suggested. Or I could use 8 fire skillms and 2 psychology skills, or 5/5 .. but most importantly i'd like to just place them wherever I like, like say:

    (psychology) (fire dmg 1 ) (fire dmg 2) (psychology2 ) (fire utility 3) etc...

    In that way I think the player would feel more at home and feel like the skill bar is really "their" skill bar. If that makes sense.


    ps: don't get me wrong though there are certainly far more important things like now.. like word of mouth, getting this game more coverage... I'm actually surprised you came up with the Sun Vale update because as a new player.. its out of my reach anyway (and there is so much content already!). The game needs publicity right now !!
     
    Cramit likes this.
  6. eggsalicious

    eggsalicious Adventurer

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    Most of us have max level characters in multiple traditional MMOs with 20 hotbars and multiple useless or redundant skills; if we wanted that we'd still be there.

    I do agree that there needs to be a more ergonomic way to switch skill bars on the fly. The current method of switching skills (a pull down menu...rly...) is awkward and slow--especially given the bugginess of the 'in-combat' state. It's so annoying switching out a skill and then getting aggro from something miles away while all your keys are greyed out.

    Since everyone auto runs anyway, maybe use shift for this?
     
  7. Mendel

    Mendel Visitor

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    I don't mind the 2 bar restriction, nor the 6 actions per bar limitation. I would like to see a better way to select / place the individual actions on the hotbar, especially for skills with more than 6 unique actions. I'd suggest an '>' icon on the right hand side of the action bar to open all the actions of that skill set.

    Also, a quick question. Is there any advantage to using two versions of the same action? Loading Punch 1 AND Punch 2 on the same bar? Do/would/should they share a cool down timer?
     
  8. Raagnar

    Raagnar Visitor

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    I'm not the creator of the game, so my opinion might be moot. I have to say though, I think that design is slightly flawed. Personally I think a person should be able to go any way they want when it comes to design. You give them the tools let them utilize them. Players should be allowed to become a "pure" when it comes to any skill. If a player wants to be only a swordsman, use 12 sword skills, I say let them. They should be powerful, but what they gain in power in swords, they lose in versatility. Let someone be only a fire mage, sure they will hit hard, but they lose all the secondary possibilities by specializing in one line only.
     
  9. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    i fully agree here especialy since you're not only losing the specialites of the 2nd skill (like heals from mental or control from psy or what ever) but you're also splitting some of your skills short as it's impossible to gear for ALL 12 skills you'll be geared for some and not geared for the remaining.

    this game is all about freedom so give the players the freedom :)
     
  10. rhonen

    rhonen Visitor

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    I like the way the two hot bars are working now. Gorgon is not a game where a character is "class A" or "class B", each character is composite of two other skill sets with a dash of something on the left sided hot bar. The game is designed so that you have to make a choice to take skill 1 or skill 2 and live with that choice. If we were able to put more skills on the hot bars than we already have available then I think we would see less diversification in players skill set construction. Playing with a limited skill selection forces you to think about where your going, what your going to do and what skills would be most beneficial to your current needs.

    What I would like to see is a way to lock down the skill set so I don't accidently pull one off the Hot Bar and it goes POOF when I'm fighting.

    Another thing I would like to see is slight graphic change on all the skills that can be placed on the left most hot bar so we know that they can be placed in that Left Hot Bar or in the normal hot bars. Perhaps just a different colored boarder around the skill graphic to denote its difference.

    Ratero.
     
  11. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    idk it just makes no since to me... I don't think the hotkey bar slots should be increased that's for sure... you shouldn't be able to use more than 6 from each of 2 different skill sets (like 10 from fire, 10 from mentalism no 6 each is fine there)

    BUT if I choose to go specialized and go without the added effects of the 2ndary skill set then why can't I? simply because someone else doesn't want me to? makes no since. and I'm not even saying I would do it. I like mixing and changing skill sets/combo's constantly but the option should be there :)

    it's been said it would become OP if you could use all skills of a set... ok so lets say druid (as it's one of the few sets that have a dual purpose)

    so what I can do dps and heals if I could set all 12 slots as druid right?
    I can gear for all dps (like you would now with a dps build) or all healing (like you would now with a healing build) OR you could split it.
    IF you split it then you're losing from your main purpose so you should gain for your secondary purpose...

    and in the end how is that different than how it is now except you're saying you MUST do it using another skill..
    I can set druid dps and mental heals as 2nd? or druid dps and psycho heals as 2nd? and I can focus gear on dps or the 2nd sets heals or I could mix them both just the same as above. except for actualy you gain MORE this way and can be even stronger because not only can you use the 2nd sets heals but a couple of their specialty skills as well like mentalism's pain bubble or psychologies fear. that you wouldn't have in a solo set build. so in reality the dual set is stronger than the specialized set in most cases.

    like I said it just doesn't make since to me.
     
  12. Gorgonzola

    Gorgonzola Adventurer

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    For the discussion it would be useful to put more distinction between skills, and abilities. Individual abilities is what goes on the hotbars. Two bars at the moment, each one holding up to 6 abilities from 1 skill. Thus a limit of two skills, and 12 abilities.

    To summarize my view so far I think it makes sense to limit the number of *skills* to two as the game currently does. However I think it's not a bad idea to have one hotbar with 8 to 12 abilities, which the user can reorder as they wish, from a maximum of 2 *skills*.

    Now if your suggestion is to be able to put *abilities* from any skills, on your hotbar(s), then yes obviously that makes your character OP. OP in the sense that you can pick the best of each skill line. It would also remove a lot of fun and replayability from the game as you could pretty much make one good set of abilities and never want to use anything else.

    ps: also to echo Ratero, I do think the current system works reasonably. I just wish I could reorganize the hotbars more freely.
     
  13. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    no my suggestion was to be able to put 6 abilities from up to 2 skills or up to 12 abilities form 1 single skill.

    they replied saying that using more than 6 abilities from one single skill would make it OP and I fail to see this. as regardless what we can set in the hotkey bars we still have to get geared for those skills. we can already use 12 abilities. why does it HAVE to be from 2 separate skills.

    idk as said above I just don't see the problem. and while I personaly prefer to mix and match skills and various abilities I still think should have the freedom to solo skill.
     
  14. Cramit

    Cramit Adventurer

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    I do like the idea of being able to go one specific skill line, although I think that going that way should make the play experience a lot more challenging/harder. For instance, if you went straight fire magic, I think you should be able too and that you should do the most fire damage out of anyone because of the character focusing on only 1 skill.

    However, I also think that because the character limited themselves to only 1 skill, that should make them weaker in a lot of ways. For instance the fire mage that just went fire magic and nothing else, should be "weaker" or at least a lot harder to play than a mage that went firemagic/staff, merely because someone who is able to diversify has more "life" experience making them understand more things about their world and not to mention that the "preferred" way of speccing a character is with 2 combat skills. Now maybe this is just done by a buff or something like that that is being discussed in a different thread:

    http://stratics.com/community/threads/suggestion-more-connection-between-skills.322520/

    Or maybe we need to think of another way to attain this. My main point being, I think you should have this option but have reasons to prefer 2 combat skills instead of 1, but not limiting you from doing the 1 if you so choose. Just not sure how to get their without breaking other things.
     
  15. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    Well going a pure build already weaken's you a little. imo. and once the skills are more balanced within them selves (as they need to be) it'll matter even more.

    people keep saying fire magic so i'll continue with that as example. with fire magic you have only 1 knock back. no fear, no stun, and no heals (outside of gear mods) no rage control and really high rage generation and no summons to help draw agro. so by choosing to go pure fire you're losing all of them effects that you could get from a 2nd skill such as psychology or necro or something.

    another example if you was more a crowd control player and wanted to go pure psychology sure you get lots of CC and decent heals but really low damage.

    in the end you are sacrificing as no one skill is a jack of all trades.

    however the discussion on that other thread could be interesting if done right. I would like to see it considered but I think the buff's should go for everything and each should also have a bit of debuff within it. (i'll post more about that on that thread)
     
  16. Gorgonzola

    Gorgonzola Adventurer

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    We are on the same page then. However experience taught me, when I get in these discussions, that I often forgot something.

    So scratching my head, I can think of one reason why it works the way it does now.

    It's a matter of usability. In PG, I frequently use 3-4 skills on each bar; For example lately I 'm having fun with Fire Magic and Psychology. Had a very satisfying fight in Kur Mountains controlling Rage, mezzing and fearing creature while my Rage control abilities finish to recharge, and also gaining distance to throw big balls of fire at them.

    With that in mind with 2 hotbars You have intuitive shortcuts for 1-6, and shift 1-6 (as an example , someone may prefer control or alt).

    If you have one long hotbar then it's less intuitive, because now you have likely some frequent use abilities on slot #7, #8 and maybe even #9 and #10. using number keys 7-9 and 0 usually is much less practical to do. You could of course map the second half of such a hotbar to shift 1-6 but then it's not as intuitive when shift-1 is hotbar slot #7, shift 2 is hotbar slot #8, and so on.

    Whether that's the main reason the devs went for this dual bar system, I don't know, but it definitely has a usability advantage.
     
  17. awollsd

    awollsd Adventurer

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    but I wasn't asking for one long hotbar either.. perhaps you don't understand how the skills currently work when setting them on the hotbar or maybe it still didn't speak clearly. if so sorry.

    but ok lets just use druid as it's one of the easiest ones to talk about as it has two roles within itself healing and dmg.

    ok so say I want to go pure druid. set it for both 1st and 2nd skills if I set the ability toxin ball in hotbar 1 wanting my hotbar 1 to be dps and hotbar 2 to be healing then the game auto sets toxin ball for slot 1 in hotbar 2 as well.

    it is 100% impossible to use more than 6 abilities from a single skill tree. and I think that is what should be changed. we have 12 hotbar slots let us set up to 12 abilities from a single skill tree or 6 from each of 2.
     
  18. Citan

    Citan Project: Gorgon Developer
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    12 abilities from one skill: no, that's not going to happen, for two reasons. First, that would rob a lot of the strategic elements from the skills. Right now powers like Decapitate are a hard choice -- it does a ton of damage but a very slow cool down, and the number of slots it can go in is very small, so you have to decide whether it makes sense for a particular outing. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. That makes the choice interesting, but balance able.

    If you upped the number of slots, it's a no brainer: put Decapitate on the bar and use it whenever it comes up -- it's nearly the highest damager in the game with a pretty reasonable Power cost, so if you've got a ton of Sword-boosting gear on anyway, why wouldn't you always include it? Any strategy is lost.

    Second, that would teach you that the best way to play is to focus on one skill. Focusing on one skill makes it much easier to gear up, and if you had 12 slots for that skill, you could have pretty much all the toys of that skill simultaneously. But I REALLY don't want players to get into the habit of thinking they can survive with one skill. You will need both skills. As a very trivial example, there will be dungeons where there are monsters immune to fire and ice, for instance, and if you've only got Fire Magic at high level (and geared well), you won't be able to play it. That wouldn't be YOUR fault -- that would be MY fault for teaching you that you can be successful with only one skill. (It's often true right now, in the low levels, but these are the newb levels, remember.) So I try hard to push players to understand they need to level at least two combat skills. I need to be able to throw all kinds of scenarios at you and know that you'll be able to adapt to them. If you only have one skill, you wouldn't always be able to do that. Which restricts what kind of experiences I can throw at people.

    6 abilities per skill but spread arbitrarily across two bars: that doesn't present balance problems, but it does make it very hard to explain to newbies what's going on. It may be a good advanced GUI mode down the road, though.
     
    #18 Citan, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  19. Gorgonzola

    Gorgonzola Adventurer

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    6 abilities per skill but spread arbitrarily across two bars: that doesn't present balance problems, but it does make it very hard to explain to newbies what's going on. It may be a good advanced GUI mode down the road, though.

    It's good to hear you are open to this idea.

    The main thing I'd like to see if the game can solve, is this : say you pick the Lute, or the new instruments from Conor Brace. WOuldn't it be cool if you could automatically replace primary skill bar 1-6 with the riffs/jams ? Have you thought about a way you're going to be able to automate switching skill bars with the equipment perhaps?

    So part of (at least my) suggestions here, is with that in mind. It would be very hadny if when I equip the shiled somehow it knows to put back the shield skill..

    Another angle may be that it's just the skill pick atm (that tiny "<" icon) that could be improved and make the experience more quick and easy.