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Tactics/Weapon Skill = Eval/Anatomy (Defense Calculation Idea)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by puni666, Sep 25, 2010.

  1. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I've posted this before. I just felt like bringing it up again.

    Lately the only reason to max out your Tactics skill would either be for PvM templates or a running shot archer. Otherwise you keep it at 90 and lock it so you can place skill points in something else.

    My idea is,

    Tactics Skill + Any Weapon Skill /2= Your Based Defensive Ability (armed or disarmed)

    So having 120 in both skills you'd feel no change, but for the people that only run with 120 Weapon Skill and 90 Tactics they'd have the Defensive Ability of a player with a 105 weapon skill atm.

    This would also work like a fix for disarm making people have 0% defense chance while disarmed. The only effects a disarmed combatant should feel should be the limited amount of time they can't deal damage. They shouldn't lose there wits about them and become unable to defend themselves also.

    But doing this you'd have to make shields effected by disarm also otherwise straight parry dexers would just be nuts.
     
  2. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    But what about mages? they need a weapon skill to defend even though they don't hit with it, are you saying they should need 240 skill points + 70% dci just to not get hit 50% of the time?
     
  3. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Wrestling would remain untouched, but if you wanted to play a tank mage get 120 in both and you're set... armed or disarmed.
     
  4. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    what about mage weap users?
     
  5. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    They get the benefit of a free defensive ability and an extra 120 skill points in w/e they want. What about them?
     
  6. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    you really have no idea how pvp works in ultima online do you?
     
  7. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    this would make dexxers better than mages, if you want to kill a mage, play a mage and kill with skill, not with the rng.
     
  8. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    That's not the reason they use them? What do they use them for then? We must play different Ultima Online games :(.
     
  9. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I'm not sure how this would even effect a mage any more then their current state.
     
  10. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    Define free? i use magery, you use swords.

    plus the mage weaps have -20 skill so now that you bring it up, abolish the - magery skill on mage weaps!
     
  11. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    A mage weapons draw back is suppose to be disarm. They gain a higher offensive capability because they don't want to invest the skill points in defensive abilities.
     
  12. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    simple, mages would need 120 tactics for nothing.

    lets play your game, i think warriors should require 120 eval to be able to do specials.
     
  13. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Your argument is over 20 skill points? With the items out no a days that seems a little silly. Not to mention if you're in factions it'd be idiotic not to have a crystalline ring on you, and then make the DCI up in your suit with ease.
     
  14. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Not at all. Wrestling wouldn't need tactics. And neither would a mage weapon. Those would both still be at 120 if the skill was 120. A mage weapon wielder disarmed though would still feel the "old school" effect of being at 0% defense though since they have points invested else where.
     
  15. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    i am in factions and i do use a crystalline ring. not because i want to, but because i have to for defense against dexxers, why should mages require yet another 120 skill points and you not?

    a mage must have 70% dci on suit, and dexxers don't cos dci doesn't help against mages, dexxers only have dci because of other dexxers.
     
  16. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    IMO I think it'd be kinda cool to be on a tank mage and not have to run around till you could reequip your weapon to successfully cast anything past a mini heal.
     
  17. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Right. My understanding about the game if it were for the reason of dexers alone you'd be a wrestle mage of some sort. I know that ring is way to tempting to give up on a Mystic Mage. If something made me attack .75 seconds faster gave me 3 MR Maxed out my DI and added 40 skill points to my template I'd use it too I don't blame you!
     
  18. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I'm not sure why you think you need another 120 skill points. If you're worried about disarm on a Mage weapon there's not much you can do about it now or if this calculation where to ever go through. It's the draw back of the Mage weapon template. Like a dexer that wants to be more offensive instead of having resists, 40% of a mage with eval's arsenal is your draw back.
     
  19. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    then every mage would have to be a tank mage, which is not as powerful as a mystic mage.

    like i said, if you wanna kill people, do it with skill, not with the rng.
     
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    They don't HAVE to be a tank mage. I'm not sure you're understanding the concept here. I'm saying anyone that has a weapon skill and tactics would have to max out there tactics skill to maintain a 120 defensive ability armed or disarmed.

    You seem to think that having defense is going to make mage weapons obsolete. Which is not the case at all. I know plenty of people that would still take the chance of being disarmed for more offensive ability.
     
  21. Mervyn

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    with your new calculation, you would HAVE to have 120 tactics and 120 weapon skill + 75% dci to maintain a 50% chance of not being hit.

    as a mage you can't fight a dexxer with anything less
     
  22. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    How is that any different then right now?
    You do understand that IF you wear a Mage weapon or have wrestling you're void from the calculation right?
    120 Wrestling means you're always at a 120 defensive ability W/O TACTICS same for the mage weapon, but if it's disarmed you suffer the penalty of 0 defensive ability. You wouldn't need Magery AND Tactics to make the mage weapon defend for you if it's equipped.
     
  23. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    I believe 120 Mage with a -Mage weapon applies as a Defensive Weapon skill and is considered the same as *All* other Weapon Skills (Wrestling Excluded).

    Therefore, a Mage with 120 Magery and 0 Tactics would have 60 Weapon Skill with His 120 Skill / 20 Item Skill investment, using your Calculation
     
  24. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Sorry but there's not class of Mage weapons that gets special attack when tactics is add along with it. There's only Fencing, Swords, Macefighting, Archery, Throwing. Mage weapon is intended to give you a defensive ability w/o the ability to deal mainstream damage like wrestling. Like I was saying it's void from this calculation.
     
  25. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    With -120 Mage | 90 Tactics and 90 Swords

    You can use Weapon Specials just fine, using the offensive % To hit based off your 120 Weapon Skill (Magery)

    Which i suppose would be considered "Mainstream Damage"
     
  26. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Then you'd still have a 120 Defensive ability because of the 120 mage weapon. Only when armed though. 90 Unarmed because the average of the combat oriented skills.
     
  27. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    I think this was a poke to let evasion still work for him on his bush dexxer even when hes disarmed.
     
  28. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    I like the Idea of a Less Debilitating Disarm.. But not this way..
     
  29. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Sorry but no weapon means no parry, no parry means no evasion :/. It was more of a way to make dexers/tanks that use the minimal skill for special moves have to invest a bit more into tactics to attain full defense instead of being able to save skill points on templates like a ninja/bushido/stealthing dexer or a dexer such as my own with parry/resist/med. Having to take out 30 med would drop my MR considerably :( and make me less able to spam specials constantly.
     
  30. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    My grip with disarm is that your defense is solely reliant on having a weapon in hand. Tell me if 8 archers shoot at you at the same time and only 4 hit. Do you think it was because you had a weapon in your hand? Or because you avoided the shots?... It's because you avoided the shots. If it was because of the weapon that would mean you have parry. This is why I think you should be able to avoid attacks even with out a weapon in hand if you're skilled in any sort of combat paired with tactics.
     
  31. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    See Puni here plays dexers most of the time. Basically what he wants is disarm to not affect him, but to affect mages.
     
  32. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    It's still effective in the fact that a disarmed dexer can't deal damage. I like how you don't even try to understand the idea. You just instantly go on the assault.
     
  33. Macrophage

    Macrophage Journeyman
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    Don't worry Lynk is just a troll who usually replies without reading what you ve written. I think it would be a rather good idea actually, kinda buffing tank mages, nerfing most of dexxer templates while leaving pure mages untouched ( but I do think it would make more sense to have the formula work exactly same way than for normal weapons, only keep wrestling untouched for balance issues)
     
  34. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    1. So you are basically trying to disable the (lame) tactics of disarm moving shot (or dismount disarm newb gank) against all dexers and pure wrestling mages, all other mages gets screwed period... that sounds very very biased.

    2. How is it mage needs anatomy to benefit the defensive chance... something that has very very little to do with 99% of the mage templates out there. If you want your arguments/suggestions to hold any water the 2nd dependent skill should have nothing to do with dexers as well. It should be something (Tactics + Arms Lore+20)/2 for dexers. Or you can feel free and play a wrestle dexer whatever you wanna achieve with that kind of template.

    I dont know if puni is a dexer exclusive player but if you want something changed at least make it reasonable. Because last time I checked mages arent the favorite template of year (it's dexers btw), and if you wanna talk about mysticism... the most effective mystic (in both offensive and defensive aspects) swings a bokuto and has zero evalint.
     
  35. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    um. rather than debate this idea, i'll just point out that completely modifying the mechanics of melee for anything but a rock solid idea is a really, really, BAD idea.

    more than likely you're just trying to jam your uber leet pvp template in and have to cut corners here and there.. that doesnt mean there aren't plenty of other reasons why tactics are good.
     
  36. Dubar

    Dubar Journeyman
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    I dont think its a bad idea at all, disarming a dexxer and making them offenseless and defenseless is a bit too much

    I think a lot of mages forget they have 80 evade skill when disarmed
    (120 eval + 20 Joat anatomy + 20/2=80)

    which according to stratics combat calculator- UO Stratics - Combat , means a dexxer has a 30% chance to miss a disarmed mage (assuming same levels of hci and dci, and 120 wep skill with dexxer)

    If this were to be implimented mages wouldnt be left completely in the cold, they already have a bit of disarm protection

    On a side note there are a lot of personal attacks for no reason, puni is an exceptional player. Just because he posts something you dont like dosent prove otherwise
     
  37. on the flip side, a dexxer could have 120 anatomy for the exact same defense. :thumbup1:
     
  38. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah, I'm not really seeing where mages are getting screwed in this. Wrestling wouldn't need the additional skill to have defense, either would a mage weapon user. The only down side for the mage weapon users is the fact they choose to have other skills rather then put skills in a combat skill hence why you don't benefit disarmed. And talk about a buff for tank mages not having to be on full defense while disarmed. That alone would probably attract some people to play tanks again.
     
  39. Dubar

    Dubar Journeyman
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    youre right they could, but I consider eval more of a staple in mages than anat is in dexxers
     
  40. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Again, your suggestion is biased, you failed to explain both of my points in my post above.

    Why mages need anatomy for defense chance while dexers can have the whole thing for free. I think by making dexer defensive chance (Tactics + Arms Lore)+10/2 Dexers wont be screwed because you are still gonna have some basic protection (because all dexers have tactics), and since anatomy has nothing to do with mages, arms lore is a perfect fit for dexers.

    If you are dexer exclusive player or dont give a **** about balance then I guess you have a point in your biased suggestion. I will be nice and repost again...

    To OP:
    1. So you are basically trying to disable the (lame) tactics of disarm moving shot (or dismount disarm newb gank) against all dexers and pure wrestling mages, all other mages gets screwed period... that sounds very very biased.

    2. How is it mage needs anatomy to benefit the defensive chance... something that has very very little to do with 99% of the mage templates out there. If you want your arguments/suggestions to hold any water the 2nd dependent skill should have nothing to do with dexers as well. It should be something (Tactics + Arms Lore+20)/2 for dexers. Or you can feel free and play a wrestle dexer whatever you wanna achieve with that kind of template.

    I dont know if puni is a dexer exclusive player but if you want something changed at least make it reasonable. Because last time I checked mages arent the favorite template of year (it's dexers btw), and if you wanna talk about mysticism... the most effective mystic (in both offensive and defensive aspects) swings a bokuto and has zero evalint.
     
  41. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    As in all other mages you mean ONLY Mage weapon wielders. Like I said before. They're making a conscious choice to not invest any skill points in anything to do with combat so they can expand there versatility or damage outputs. So yeah when they're disarmed from there artificial defense (-Mage Weapon) they're combat fodder. A character trained in combat should not have to suffer this.

    And the calculation would be a permanent thing. Armed or disarmed. if you're only 120/90 you're going to be sitting at a 105 defensive ability continually. If you want the full defense you better pull some skill points out of another skill and put them in tactics for the full benefit. Maybe The skills should be switched to Tactics/Anatomy since anatomy could technically be used with both mainstream templates by adding healing with it.

    I would use wrestling, but the fact that it doesn't lower mana costs for special moves is a huge drawback otherwise I'd have that instead of parry.
     
  42. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    In todays PvP a Having to use 120 Skill for weapon skill instead of using a -Mage weapon can be crippling to your template, Dexxers have too much viability and survival, where as wrestling offers almost Nothing more than mage weapon as the specials can not longer be used while casting.

    Having that Extra 120 Skill is one of the Few things that Allow mages to Compete against Dexxer burst Damage.
     
  43. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I didnt word it wrong, didnt I say ALL MAGES OTHER THAN WRESTLING MAGES? You cant read doesnt mean I was wrong. Only wrestling mages wont get screwed. And many tank mages (why would you play a tank mages now your best bet is mysticism?) only has 90/90 wep/tactics and use mage weapons as their hit/defensive calculation (something you probably did not know, this is to save 30 skill points at the cost of needing mage weapon mod on their weapons)

    So you do not play a mage since you think most mage templates are viable without a mage weapon thesedays. :(

    Also you again failed to explain why mages needs anatomy, a warrior skill, to achieve defensive wrestling while dexers should have 2 core dexer skills to do the samething.

    I think it's a great change, as long as the calculation goes as the following
    (Tactics + Arms Lore + 20)/2


    Besides this calculation is already a steal, considering tactics gives more damage and let you use all the weapon specials. On the other hand anatomy to mages? so they can punch you for extra 0.5 damage when they MELEE you, they dont get new spells, ect or you want the mages to also pick up healing so they heal like dexers at 10dex thats what? 12 second per heal... great template.
     
  44. Macrophage

    Macrophage Journeyman
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    As far as I know eval int is not a warrior skill? And warriors can get 120 defensive skills provided they have 120 anat and 100 evalint... I still love that idea, provided it nerfs for good the mage weapons (and it would since most mage weapon wielders dont have tactics) which provides people with a close to free skill (completely free I d say if you are in factions). Mage weapons and mysticism are overpowered skills that definitely need some fixing.
     
  45. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    How is it a free skill? You use swordsmanship and that gives you defense, we use magery and that gives us defense with a mage weap.

    If you take away mage weaps it would make dexxers more powerful than mages which means whoever wins is decided on luck of the RNG and not skill.
     
  46. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Macro, how are mage weapons overpowered? They're not used for offense, mainly just defense.
     
  47. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    I kinda see the point of what your saying. I wouldnt have a problem with it as it would make playing a tank mage more apealing.

    But i run a parry mage 120 parry 120 wrestle 70dci and 80+ dex and im pretty sure you killed me 3x lastnight not missing more than once in sequence. This i find more troubling than a dexxer getting slapped everytime while disarmed.
     
  48. i would be happy with (tactics + anatomy)/2 for defense chance.
     
  49. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah that seemed odd honestly. I fought A blue before you and had the hardest time hitting him and he doesn't have parry :/. I'd say it was a bad RNG night for you but it was 3 times like you said. I shouldn't have hit you 3 times in a row EVER considering your build :(.
     
  50. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Agreed, I would love to have (Eval + Magery)/2 for defense chance on the mage side.