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Discussion in 'UHall' started by Hunters Moon, Jul 8, 2008.
So what skill,armor piece,or weapon did the other templates get to compensate for this?
Why does everything have to be compensated for in another skill ?? For yrs mages & warriors had slayer instruments/mage books, Then came AOS changes, Chiv, Bushido, ninja all adding MORE damage a wep does.... Killing a drag or WW in 2 to 3 Hits.... now you tell me where the fairness was there & why they don't deserve these pets now.
Nothing HAS to be Evened Out, all templates have diff Plus's & minus's. That is why in all reality PvP can not be fixed as easily as one might think. No 2 skills can be equal, no matter how you do it, only nerfing can make then semiequal IMO.
The new turn in stuff maybe? Not that I'm one to defend tamers, but seriously it is a good thing there is new content such as mounts etc, its long overdue.
Show me a non-tamer template that doesn't require massive use of mana and stat balance. It doesn't cost even one mana point to command a pet to attack. Mages have to put at least 80 dex to have full use of parry. Warriors have to put at least 36-40 int(mana) into stat configuration to be useful anymore. All the while nothing has been balanced with the tamer. "All Kill" is more powerful than any mage spell or any warrior attack.
The drawbacks to being a tamer would be....?
Of course new content is a good thing as long as each template gets an equal piece of that pie.Lately tamers have gotten the greater dragons share....
Please explain, what exactly you want to "compensate". Do you want equipment which makes you as powerful? Or do you want just new stuff?
1. If you'd get equipment that would make you as powerful as a Greater Dragon, you also should get the penalties. Like needing 3 non-combat skills just to use the equipment. Or not being able to ride a mount. I can already see people whining about that if it would happen. Besides, being as strong as a Greater Dragon would be a most boring thing. No more challenge in the game.
2. If you want new stuff, I wonder if you already have tried all the existing stuff. I honestly doubt it. There are alone 31 different swords weapons, with different special move combinations. There are a dozend of skills that can be combined with swordsmanship. I really doubt that anybody tried all possible melee templates. Use your fantasy and your imagination to try something completely new. I just recently did and built a character with a extremely uncommon skill combination. You cannot imagine how much fun it is playing this character! And it is more powerful than I myself had guessed.
But even if the developers would fulfill all wishes on this board, some people would still complain. The devs should focus on really important issues, like the graphics engine or dynamic and interesting events, instead of cramming Britannia with more and more special items.
All this reminds me of is my late Grandmother. Every time one of her grandchildren had a birthday, the other kid would get a present just so they didn't feel left out.
That was a smart move on her part. The Devs could learn alot from that lesson.
Let's see, between ML (last time Tamers got a new pet - August 2005) and the Greater Dragons coming out what have other templates received?
Virtue armour and 10th anni items: this includes new weapons in a sword, a crook, a staff, two shields, a full set of armour and some other trinkets.
Current turn in stuff includes 3 full sets of armour, plenty of deco stuff and some jewelery and resist boots.
Halloween event gave us the Grim Reaper's Scythe ghoul statues, lanterns etc, ophidian event gave Ophidian Beserker's bardiche, etc, Invalis' Burchette, etc.
We've had candle of love event with alacrity scrolls: rewards that apply to all skills. Book of Truth event which gave us a new sword, the redeemer.
Magincia gave us all that rubble deco stuff - piles and piles of it if you're into decorating your house, plus deamon beserker sythes, staff of pyros and whatever that kryss was called.
Even new players got New Haven which included a stack of halfway decent newbie items, the vets got themselves an easy way to max out spell resist with the spectral spellbinders.
Arms lore became useful for crafters in this same period of time, & runic stuff was tweaked.
It seems a lot of content applying to alot of templates and playstyles have been released in that time. Like it or not, a pet is a tamer's weapon, and they've only received two new ones in the same period of time that other templates have had a bunch of stuff.
let's face it, tamers are pathetic. they can talk all they want but we know they're just hiding the fact that they can't cut it in the uo world without their superdragon doing all the fighting.
6 or 7 character slots...
use them wisely...
basically... all in our hands... so why bug the Devs?
They gave you a box of kleenex so you can wipe your whiney nose.
go back to soloing everything with your superdragon and pretending like you have any skill.
What's wrong with you guys? Why all the anger against tamers? Even if they are overpowered, do we really have to care? Make a tamer yourself, if you want equality!
Best posting in this useless thread!
I think what everyone else got was Slayer weps/spellbooks/talisman. Just think of the greater dragon as a 'Reptile Slayer'.
uh, Make a tamer and get a greater. They are very good to work with, and kill most anything with out too much difficulty. The trade off, and you know there always is one, you have to walk where ever you go. I think that seems fair. Drives me nuts when someone brings out the nerf stick to bash someone else.
tamers in pvm isnt the issue
but what pvm offers any loot worth chasing after anyway
the problem with the greator dragons is the commonality of them at yew gate or any other pvp location
tho paragon succubus may offer a fight for the greater dragon, but no pvper can match that kinda damage output or defense
all kill after throwing a bola at someone takes no skill and requires lil of the "walk everywhere" feature from controlling such "great and powerful" beast
it is true that you can kill the tamer if someone else keeps the dragon busy, but why should it take two or more people to kill a tamer in pvp?
super dragons serve no purpose in this game except as noted before, a walk thru of the game in easy mode, there are a few things that may make the tamer toss an aid or two in combat on the great beast but none of those things would ever truly be hunted since the loot at the end of the battle would be best left on the corpse.
i would estimate that over half if not more like 75% of the superdragons today are used strictly for all kill purposes in pvp style fights.
tamers may have their purpose in this game but they have no business in fel pvp. all kill is not skill, never was, never will be....ever.
go ahead and tell me that im so wrong, ill only laugh knowing that you must be a tamer.
i want my 900 point shield for my dexxer to wield.
make it a sc one so my mage can hold it too.
it doesnt even have to come with firebreath, bleed attack, or 120+ mage/eval with 6/10 casting
tamers.....tram is >>>>>>>>
Wow.. When I first started reading this thread, I started thinking of all the things non-tamers have received since the dawn of Ultima Online and was thinking of posting like you have, listing the many things. Thank you for your posting.
Compare everything non-tamers have gotten over the many years with everything tamers have gotten and I'd say it's nice that Tamers are getting attention.
As another stated, just to control your "weapons" (pets) you have to have several non-combat skills, making the Tamer themselves their own weakness.
PvP vs. a Tamer, what do you do? Take out the Tamer and their "weapons" fail. Invis yourself, hide, chuck an invis potion.. trick the pets, tactics. Para the pet, kill the tamer, pet becomes "confused" and is now easy prey or just ignored.
Tamers have to heal pets, yep there goes another 100+ or more in skill points for another skill. They choose veterinary, so now the tamer has to carry bandages. Thieves, mm take a tamer's bandies, tactics! So they make a mage to cast spells, well there goes the tamer's mana so even if they did have defensive/offensive spells their mana will probably get drained even faster if forced to use non-healing spells.
Oh no, a pet dies! Yep, there's another drawback. Imagine your weapon loosing all it's durability. Yikes! Ok, so the tamer has summoning balls for more pets... well, do most warriors carry only 1 weapon? Do mages only carry one spell?
Make a Tamer, better yet, make a Tamer/Cartographer, play it for nearly 10 years doing thousands of treasure maps in both fel and trammel and then tell me they do not take skill. Tamer's skill relies on timing, hand eye coordination, the ability to not draw aggro and keep your pet healed while making sure your also not too vulnerable from surprise attacks... Ninjas ya know, they stealth around.. players and npcs alike..
Yes, I had played a tamer for about 8-9 years. I have seen most all of the good the bad and the ugly and I have got to say, if anyone has been left out in all the years, it would have to be... Thieves then Tamers.
Give it time, I am sure more will come for non-tamers, if the past is of any evidence to the future.
If anything, hearing of these new pets has tempted me to try and return on my tamer account... had tempted me..
As for the soloing comment about Tamers... well, I am proof many non-tamer templates can be solo'd in UO for the majority of my years with UO have been playing solo on between 10-12 different characters. Stealth/Mage, very soloable. Bard, oh yeah. Paladin, yep! Archer, so soloable. Crafters, yep (for the most part, crafting part..). Samurai, Ninjas, sure! Thieves, oh yeah, many thieves work solo...
So, I fail to see why bringing to light that Tamers can solo practically anything when just about all other templates can too..
Really, now how is it we tamers are the bad guys ever time a thread is started about the tameables in game? I would really be happy if the greater Dragons had never been born, ruin my hunting location tossing those monsters in Destard, then to beef up the ancient wyrm on Level six maps, now only a greater dragon can take one head on with the owner vetting like crazy, heaven forbid you lag or worse, lose connection, instant dog food for the AW. Then hit a paragon Greater in Ilsh!!! Only way to kill them is to bring in greaters.
As for the Dread, I like it, never been a fan of the Cu Sidhe, Hiryu, or the Reptalon, the Dread is what I have always wished what the Nightmare and its kin should have been liked. Makes me wish they had beefed up the mares, unicorns, ki-rins and fire steeds with some super pet food quest.
I hope they do something to keep a Vanguard and mount spawning in some deep dark pocket, or at least the Dread after the invasion is all over with and we all return to our normal playing. This way, those that do come back on their tamer's accounts, or make new charactor to train as tamers will get the chance to own such a fine ride.
Tamers pretty much get everything... put a spellbook out there and they can use it. Put new armor set out there and they can use it. Other templates are funny when they complain. Give us a new sword, well weapon tamers will use that to their advantage.
Other templates need to be asking for minions (bonded hired man stabled at inn - various skill levels and armor of bonded men that spawn randomly or maybe bonded men can be dressed by the leader of men) of their own or the ability for tamers to give them some pets as in lesser hiryu.
I don't need a super dragon to solo everything. I solo the vanguards with my bard. I solo level 6 tmaps with my bard. I hunt 90% of the time with my archer or mage/bard. And when I don't have a lot of time to play and want to make some gold. I take my tamer out and go kill things. I am sure not going stop using my greater dragon because some people want to complain about it.
I agree with several posters..... everyone has at least 5 character slots.... if you need more buy the 6th or 7th..... and make your own tamer..... Too much of a whinner to put in the time for that I suppose you like instant gratification.... taming takes time to build..... less you cheat and take the easy way out buy the token for the advanced character and put on jewels.... instant tamer..... There are many of us who have spent countless hours taming to gain skills.... and you know...... we don't earn while we go either..... At least while dexers are out killng things you get gold and loot to keep you going..... tamers get what from working their skills???? Hum..... well if I skinned the beast and killed it when I was done maybe a bit of leather..... Or if I turn it in to the zoo I might get points..... lets see.... so far I've turned in 100's of unicorns..... how many points do I have.... 80k..... that gets me...... let me see...... Garbage!...... Oh! JOY!... I figured once that in order to get enough points to get anything good out of the zoo one would have to tame non-stop 36 hours turning in one unicorn/Kirin to the zoo every 4 to 5 min..... that's not counting the dozens of times you have to stop because you can't find it again..... the dozens of times you have to find a new spot cause someone else comes along and starts taming them too.... only they are quicker.... the coutless stops you need to eat or sleep..... potty breaks.... or anything else...... so roughly if you tamed as much as you could it would take at least 4 solid days of taming non-stop to get enough points for one 300k point item..... that's putting in a good 8 hours of taming every one of those 4 days... I'm willing to bet that if I took the time to actually work a fighting skill like fencing in that amount of time just killing say earth elementals in Shame I would not only gain a ton more skill than a tamer would gain over that time.... but I'd also get enough gold and gems to actually buy the points at the zoo to get 3 or 4 of the items from the 300k point menu..... how sad is that??
Now go cry me a river and get your own tamer.
No it wasn't, she just made the kids weak.....feel left out?? Then make a tamer and enjoy the pixel crack.
One other thing, there is no BALANCE. If a person who plays A GAME, needs balance to enjoy it or even survive it, then needs to get nintendo or sony.
Dig up all the cheats, and play until you win in a few hours.
Balance, man that irks me when players cry about it. Real life has no balance....and if it does, it's very minute.
compensate, lol, man your funny.
Do you have any idea how neive and foolish you sound? I doubt you do.
Go make a tamer and fight some people who have skills. Then you can make a point, but the point you'll be making won't be what you're making now.
This is an open game.
Necros get everything.
Mages get everything.
Bards get everything
Dexers get everything
EVERYONE gets everything. There are valid reasons to hybridize most skills.
Why does this topic come up every week?
I tell you what. I have a tamer. I love my tamer. Fun to play with and fairly powerfull with all the pets at his disposal. But.....
I RARELY play with my tamer and his Greater Dragon, Cu Sidhe or Rune Beetle anymore. Why? My warrior kills 'almost' everything much faster. Plus, my warrior can move around SO much faster - the ease of a warrior and the strength far exceeds a tamer dragging a piece of pixel around that sometimes doesnt listen, and even if it does, its SOO SLOW!
And the kicker is, how long does it take to get 120 taming? FOREVER! Its hard, monotonous work. I can 120 any warrior skill in 1 week powergaming, or within 2 weeks just playing a couple hours a day. Taming 120? FOREVER!
ALthough i play with my warrior most of the time now because he kills things quicker AND can move around so much faster, i will defend the tamer til my death. Its a harder skill to obtain, and IMO, like stated above, actually gets $ hit on because new pets and content for tamers seems like every few years, where warriors get new stuff every day it seems.
Seems like those dissing the tamers are simply too lazy to realize how hard it is to get taming to 120, and if someone does finally get to 120 taming, THEY SHOULD be the most powerfull character in the game, not some hacking newb who obtains 120 swords/tactics/anatomy in 1 week then goes and kills harder things faster.
The harder the skill is to obtain, MORE REWARD SHOULD COME.
They got the ever impressive tamer envy.
A lot of the tamer haters in this thread are pointing out all the positives that came to tamers (and missing a lot too, but that's probably because they don't know anything about tamers) recently.
I don't see anyone mentioning the nerfs that came to tamers.
The new pet command structure was a HUGE help to playing a tamer. It prevents monsters and players from repeatedly attacking a pet to remove the tamer's ability to control the pet. This was a needed change.
One MASSIVE nerf that tamers got was a nerf to pet run speeds. If you put a pet on someone, it will chase them VERY slowly. Generally speaking, players can outrun a pet on foot. The unfortunate side effect of this nerf is that the only way for a tamer to kill people is to either combo kill them (generally perceived as "no skill") or box them in. To put it bluntly, if you're dieing more than you're getting away vs a solo tamer, you're doing something wrong. If you are in that boat, I suggest you play a tamer for a while to learn how to counter them. I'm sure lots of people will show you
The run speed nerf removed a lot of the cheesier combo-kills, because it allows players to just run away from the pet before the full combo can land. It takes a really long time for a pet to close the distance between 2 combatants in an open field fight.
Let's talk about pvm now. Yes, greater dragons can resist hits like nothing else in the game. Necro-dexer builds can leech back all their damage without any requirement to heal. Necro-dexers can also out damage a greater dragon. The arms lore change was a GREAT improvement for necro-dexers. I know my necro dexer became a lot more powerful with his new, powerful weapons.
The addition of event monster abilities that do half of target's health in damage have been VERY painful for greater dragons. It's a much bigger deal when you get for 400+ dmg than when you get hit for 50ish dmg.
Tamers lack the agility that any non-tamer template has. The tamer has to control his pet and pets don't move very fast. Also, tamers have less precision for "picking off" individual targets, which makes them less desierable in a lot of pvm situations (events). Archers are the kings of pick-off power.
I don't have time right now to go into more detail, but my point is that the tamer hater rhetoric paints a very poor picture of how the combat system balances out. Look at anything from one side of the fence, and you will paint an inaccurate picture. I seriously doubt that most of the tamer haters even have tamers. If tamers were quicker to build, they would probably make a tamer and then shelf it because they would find it was a lot less powerful than they realized.
Tamers in a PvP situation are extremely overpowered. PvM...well I don't care much. I have a tamer mage of my own that I use in PvP, killing people has never been easier. The fact that after cursing my opponent my greater dragon has lobbed 81 damage fireballs, bit them for 50 (bleeding them in the process) and casted an explosion flamestrike + whatever other garbage it decides to obliterate them with DOES NOT seem fair to me.
Superdragons have been the answer to everyones lack of PvP skill since they arrived. These dread mares, well in pvp you actually need to know how to use them. But if you do they're also overpowered beyond belief.
Ah well UO will always cater to those who can't do anything on their own. IE...TAMERS.
I didnt see this lil tidbit of information about pets, but they do lose skill when they die. So include the hours spent working your pets back up from stat loss.
I'm not sure what brought on all the tamer bashing lately...but
last I knew and I have 3 Tamers is that we still can't stand in
Luna and GM our skill bashing on a golem all day.
I love my GD but there are places I wouldn't dream of taking
Like warriors and mages I use different pets for different situations.
They are not the GOD pet that some people think they are. And as
far as pvp goes, get a reptile slayer weapon. Plus, dragons are
Getting to legendary took me a lot of years....it is still the one of thefew
skills that requires work, not standing in the middle of a town
Well said. The opening post said nothing about pvp and I most certainly can see how that would be cheap. I have never tried pvp, as I have felt I lacked the speed of internet connection at first, now it is lack of gear and knowledge. I'd get smoked, and there is no way I would take my greater to pvp. I have used him on a unattended scripter though without remorse.
what new turn in stuff is good for anything ???? I've not turned in a single item yet , and with the current list I wont ..........
On Siege in factions we have hero/evil powers.
One of the powers is monster ignore. Basically, for 40 life force you can make monsters ignore you for one hour.
It used to work on pets too.
That would be a great incentive to participate in factions for people on production shards and if it worked against pets again it would alleviate the ongoing problem of pets in PvP.
ROFL nope thats true , instead " you " stand un-atended and let you pet fight some shadow ele whilst running a bandage macro .......
The one imbalance that no one seems to have touched on is the amount of damage a Greater Drag does in PvM.
When Doom first came out it was the people with Pets who got the most arties.
Basically in a situation where people have to do enough damage to get looting rights, Tamers have always been at the top of getting looting rights.
So when EA does a new form of event where when you kill the boss the loot falls all over the ground, everyone complains. But with Greater Dragons around if they didnt do that, mostly the tamers would have received looting rights.
Tamers in PvP is just dumb.. Tamers are so easy to kill even with a Greater Drag.. It's called <para the pet> <explode flametsriek the tamer> <para the pet> <Flamestrike Lightning the tamer> = dead tamer at which point the greater drag finaly gets off his firee breath and you die as well.
Although the getting bolad and having the Greater Drag as well as 6 other blues on you does happen as well.
I look at who the best PvPers are like this: Meaning in the skill required to play the template
Mages/Necros are the toughest template to play, they can have up to 40 macro keys.
Dexers (Chiv - Ninja - etc) are the next toughest template.
Archers are just dumb and do too much damage for a tempalte that only needs 9 macro keys. Balanced bows should be removed fromt he game.
Tamers are the people who don't know how to PvP and never will. You will never get better at anything if you have someone else do the work for you.
Which can also be done by most other templates.. I fail to see why Tamers need to be criticized because some bad people macro unattended. If that is the case then we need to start criticizing all other templates that can (can does not mean it's legal, it's not!) be macro'd unattended, which is just about any template..
"ROFL nope thats true , instead " you " stand un-atended and let you pet fight some shadow ele whilst running a bandage macro ......."
I Sir or Madam do not stand unattended and do anything.
I am done with this thread as there will always be whiners on U-Hall that
will complain when something isn't handed to them on a silver platter.
That is what TC is for not the production shards.
I don't think he meant you, he quoted "you" so I think he was meaning to say "ROFL nope thats true, instead a tamer can stand unattended and let their pet fight some shadow ele whilst running a bandage macro ......."
At least that is how I took it and why I replied with what I did.
If you are talking about the stranger event, it is my understanding that you could not use dragon or dragon kind when fighting them as they will turn wild again. Tamers with greaters got no looting rights in that event.
1.Tamers are NOT pathetic, it takes us a year or more to even train our skills, where as a dexxer, mage etc can gm their skills in a week.
2.Tamers sacrifice ALOT to be able to control a pet, 200-240 points plus another 100-120 for vet. What does that leave? 400-340 points left for a survival skills.
3.If you cant outrun a super dragon.....
4. Most tamers (myself included) either build a pvp mage suit to go with it or just build a suit to get the job done.
So before you start calling tamers pathetic, maybe you should look at yourself? Kinda pathetic to call others pathetic without anything to back up your ideas.
Whats the difference between that and the power hitters outside of Luna with their golems??? ANybody???
Historically in UO tamers have always been the top in looting rights. There may have been an event here and there where tamer couldnt be used, but that is the exception no the norm.
No one gets more artifacts in Doom than tamers.
Also, everyone gets looting rights at the Stranger. All you need to do is be there and wait for the chest to open.
Well then I guess I need to head to Doom with my tamer. I have never gotten a doom arti, tamer or otherwise. Thanks for the advice.
This is just flat out nonsense. The only tamer that can out dps a well played, advanced dexxer or archer (not a tamer/archer), is with a pack, and those are virtually useless in most high end situations due to aoe attacks and their extremely low ability to take any damage.
This is also flat out nonsense, again, due to the fact that both advanced dexxers and advanced archers have a higher dps than any tamer template. Anyone who has actually crunched the numbers, and/or has significant experience with these templates, and is being honest, will tell you this is true.
I'll repeat what I've said in other places. Yes the devs need to listen to the player base, and this forum is one way to do that, but before they make any game changing decisions, they need to see for themselves what is actually going on, and gather concrete statistics, if possible, to support their decisions.
Just about everything that is posted on a forum like this, and it is as true for me as it is for anyone, comes with a built in bias that filters the opinions and information. To base game changing decisions on those opinions would be a mistake.
OMG how pathetic is that!!
Of course tamers hide behind their dragons!!
Thats like saying : " Oh Warriors hide behind there sword and sheild!!"
I know lets take away thier swords and tell them to go hunt!!!
Tamers have their pets to hunt with just like swordsmen have their swords! GEt over it and move on!!
I am speaking of what I have seen first hand alone and with my guild. My guild is mostly PvPers and veterans, and even though we rarely use pets we still have them and they are trained with crazy skill levels, our PvPers are all maxed out with insane suits too.
Anytime a group of us goes to Doom (Dexers, Archers, Mages and Tamers) it is the tamers who get the most arties.
And don't say that our Dexers have no skill because we control Fel Champ spawns on our shard as well as most PvP action. The only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on.
A dexxer optimized for Doom will be equipped and played differently than a dexxer optimized for champ spawns or pvp. If your dexxers aren't doing as well as the tamers, they are not as advanced as they think they are, at least when it comes to Doom.
*** Totally off topic, but this poster wonders how it is that this guild can "control Fel Champ spawns" so that the "only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on"? How does this guild know what is going on at all of the champ spawns, all of the time? I know how the guild that attempts to do the same on the shard I play does... Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..." ***
First off. If you are any good at PvP you can't go to Doom. The majority of true PvPers are red. I have seen a couple of really good PvPers that work off their counts. But they are few. And the true PvPers don't whine and moan about being killed by a dragon. They adapt and figure out how to kill them. You probably bought your pvper off of ebay and think you can play PvP. It takes skill and talent to do that.
Second. I get way more arties from my dexxer and archer than I do with my tamer that has over 2000 luck. I have one sword I can hit the DF for over 100hp almost every hit. My dragon gets no where near that. And if I am correct, doesn't points spread out to everyone in the party? And if you die, doesn't the points count go down? Apparently your problem is staying alive. Get rid of that ebay account and make your own characters.