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tamers having the short end

Discussion in 'UHall' started by mudman, May 12, 2010.

  1. mudman

    mudman Guest

    when tamers got the greater dragons it rely hurt them soewhat because of the followers. if youre running a greater dragon you should atleast be able to ride an ethie so you wont be killed from all the spawn at some places because you cant out run the stuff.
     
  2. Uthar Pendragon

    Uthar Pendragon Seasoned Veteran
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    As a tamer who loves his Greater Dragon. NO!! They need something to offset their power and walking is a good penalty to pay.

    There is always Gargoyle and ninja for the mounted speeds you so desire.
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And if you really want to move faster with a greater dragon, make your character a gargoyle, or find a way to add the ninja skill to your template.
     
  4. Tamers wanting more?? Oh geez...
     
  5. DarkVoid

    DarkVoid Guest

    I've been pondering the question: Should I turn my tamer into a gargoyle? I have seen gargoyles flying around as if mounted with what appears to be a greater dragon in tow.

    What are the pros and cons of turning my tamer into a gargoyle?
     
  6. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    Errr... how do I say it... plain: No!
     
  7. slaveone

    slaveone Guest

    Don't know all the pros and cons but i would imagine

    The main pro would be the ability to have a greater dragon and move at mount speeds and be able to cast spells while doing so which wouldnt' be possible in a ninja form.

    The disadvantage would obviously be that a gargoyle tamer wouldn't be able to ride any of the current mountable tames.

    There may be more but those were the two main ones i could think of.
     
  8. Nexus

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    I still can't understand people using Greater Dragons and Cu Sidhe for everything anyways. Really of those aren't that good except for certain things. Personally I'd like to see the Greater at least removed form the game, it just promotes laziness in tamers... Fire and forget pets need a strong down side.
     
  9. smip

    smip Slightly Crazed
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    Being a tamer myself.. I agree with this post.
     
  10. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    pretty sure the tamers them selves will shoot this idea down!
     
  11. Haddy G

    Haddy G Journeyman
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    Take up hiding and stealth, you will almost never die from spawn.
     
  12. Splup

    Splup Guest

    But where's my tamable Stygian Dragon? :stir:
     
  13. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    It's one tamer asking. Don't assume everyone who has a tamer and uses a GD agrees with the OP. It's fine with me that your human or elf character ends up on foot while using a GD. Would also be fine with me if gargoyles got the same treatment. I'm undecided about ninjitsu animal forms that give you mounted character speed because of the skill point investment and not being able to cast spells while in animal form. Don't have any tamers with ninjitsu to really say from experience whether the "penalties" offset the "benefits."

    And to the OP, maybe you can experiment with different tactics for managing the spawn when you're using a GD. Start at the edge and lure away only what you and the GD can comfortably handle at one time rather than charging in the middle and hoping for the best. Or put music and peacemaking in your template. It won't make you invincible and you still can't stand in the middle of a bunch of spawn and think none will ever touch your tamer. However, it might be helpful if you frequently have situations where you insist on charging right through the middle of a crowded area. Or get in the habit of keeping your honor virtue up and use it while you have your pet on strict orders to follow you while not guarding. Maybe you'll get lucky and the spawn will ignore the GD while you're charging through their midst.

    Seriously, though, it sounds like you might just need some practice using a GD in situations with a lot of spawn. Like any other pet, they don't make you invincible or invisible. You still have to use common sense and do your best to not attract the attention of more spawn than you and your pet can both handle and always try to keep your exit route reasonably clear if you can't or don't want to recall to bail out if the situation gets dicey.
     
  14. Casca_The_Immortal

    Casca_The_Immortal Adventurer
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    I think tamers should get everything they need, they should just be banned from PvP. Players should not be able to sick their pets on anyone else.
     
  15. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    You're immortal....why should you care?
     
  16. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Wait....

    Did the OP really really seriously said "When they gave tamers SUPER GRAGONS it HURT the tamers?

    Same deal here with rising colossus. Human/Elf using it has to be on foot. While gargoyles can fly. Take it as part of the "bonus" of being a gargoyle. You know your human 20 came in handy, or your Elf tamer can tame a Cu. So your gargoyle tamer can have a super dragon while flying.

    If this is another one of those thread of "Hey I am an elf, please give me everything that gargoyles have but take nothing away from me because I dont want to be a gargoyle but I really want to be like a gargoyle oh and human 20 on my elf would've been nice too"

    When is tamable Stygian dragons coming out? what about ridable super dragon that also casts necro spells?
     
  17. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ya, dexxers are overpowered, archers are overpowered, mystics are overpowered, tamers are overpowered, ninjas are overpowered. Let's just ban every template except for naked mages from pvp. After all, we all know that the only "real" pvp is naked mage dueling.

    Just for your information, "real" tamers have been nerfed to the point of being almost useless in pvp on every shard except for Siege and Mugen. What do I mean by "real" tamers, I mean tamers who are tamers first - tamers whose primary means of damage dealing is their pets.

    How have they been nerfed? Well I suppose you could call it inverse nerfing. Every other template and way of dealing damage has become much stronger due to the new artifacts and imbuing, while pets have remained the same. The only tamers that do well in pvp are hybrid tamers that are primarily some other template, but the pet is only there to do supplementary damage, or provide a sturdy mount.

    This has been true for a long time, but this has been exacerbated by the SA expansion. Very few characters that are primarily tamers do well in pvp at all except on Siege. So really, those who complain about tamers are either playing on Siege, where the arms race hasn't caught up to tamers yet, or are incompetent pvp'rs.

    I play a "real" tamer in pvp, and I can tell you from experience that my tamer mage is by far my most challenging template to play in pvp, and there are other templates that do better in just about every pvm context as well.

    I haven't heard the tamer haters complaining as much lately on Stratics, and that is primarily because they really don't have anything to complain about, and haven't for years, but this is most especially true since the SA expansion was released. The true tamer's strength, in comparison to other templates, has been steadily eroded over the years, but the SA expansion constituted a pretty substantial land slide.
     
  18. gortman

    gortman Sage
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    I have a couple of tamers-in-training and am glad GDs are 5-slot pets. They should be kept this way to balance their relative power. It forces tamers who hunt with GDs to make concessions/adjustments in their race/template if they don't want to walk alongside their GD.
     
  19. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I was just about to write something similar! With all the nerf requests out there you are left with basically 3 templates to play, macer,fencer,swordsman and maybe mage (but have seen posts wanting those nerfed)
    and lets not forget people complaining about item based game! so take away the items to and make everyone have the same thing!

    I can see pvp becoming real fun!rolleyes:
     
  20. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    But isnt it kinda the "player's fault" for playing a traditional tamer in PvP? It's like me whining about how my Peace Disco Bard Mage being very weak in PvP (I am complaining about im a mage?). There's a difference between PvP and PvM, use you bard tamer in PvP arent do you any good if your enemy is a tamer archer.

    You got your 720 skill points. If you decide to use part of these points to make you somewhat efficient in PvM then come here complain about being weaker in PvP than other ultra offensive tamers that kill people in 2 seconds.
     
  21. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And actually I didn't touch on the biggest inverse nerf on pets, and that has to do with movement speed. Most characters move at the maximum speed the client will allow now, which didn't used to be the case. Computers are more powerful and connections are more stable and faster, but pets still move at the same speed they always have, which is dead slow. Even the fastest pets move extremely slowly.
     
  22. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I was kinda trying to point out that some people want a template that is good against everything and when they cant do it they want the other templates weekend so theirs can be more powerfull!
    its kinda like playing rock,paper,scissors and wanting rock to beat everything kinda makes playing pointless (not the best example of what i am trying to say but it was all i could come up with on short notice)
    but I do agree in the end its the player who decides what is on there template!
     
  23. Casca_The_Immortal

    Casca_The_Immortal Adventurer
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    Look I didn't say anything else was overpowered, I could careless about what temp you are on we've fought before and you suck bad. I have a problem with tamers because I agreed to go to fel to PvP, not PvM. I don't want to fight someone's dragon because they are too lazy to learn the other 1000 overpowered templates and the game so they can put a good suit together. I'm sorry I think tamers are a bunch of lazy overpowered morons that don't want to do anything except yell all kill.

    These are the same morons that complain about things being "too easy" or "boring". If you have one of the biggest monsters in the game killing everything for you then it is boring. Me... I'd prefer to get by on my character skill set and pit it against someone else's character skill set; not their Dragon's skill set.

    It's just stupid. PvP is Player v. Player. It's what it stands for, it's what it should be. I chose to play a mage so what. We are currently underpowered, it changes over time just like everything else. Archers are overpowered at times, and at times they suck ass. It's the ebb and flow of the skill tide and I don't complain about it.

    What I do like to see is people being creative with the 720 skill points they get and coming up with new and powerful ways to PvP. I have respect for them, and others that achieve success in this. I even have respect for you Lleweln even though I said you suck ass it was just a "PvP slam" and nothing personal.

    But... as I said. PvM in PvP does not belong.
     
  24. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not complaining about my template being weak, what I am objecting to is the old anti-tamer prejudice rearing it's ugly head yet again. Now maybe I'm reading into the post that I was responding to, but I see very few complaints about the hybrid tamer templates. Most pvp'rs seem to have no problems with them, because they are part of the "in" crowd and are accepted.

    What I see people complaining about on Stratics, and in game as well, are the "true" tamers, and my guess is that if you were to get into a good discussion about it, it would eventually become clear that this is the case here as well. Sure, there are still some complaints about dread warhorses, but for the most part I don't see many complaints about tamer hybrids.
     
  25. LordDrago

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    This is an Awesome Idea!!!!! They really should only be 2 slot pets, cause tamers should be able to have 2 for the really tough spawn/peerless and still be able to ride. And there should be barding availbe for all pets. And magic collars. I mean, if I can take a ring for a human hand, and convert it to a gargoyle ring, then I should also be able to make a collar for my GD out of it as well.

    Let's see what else.

    Harbingers. We should be able to tame them. And the dread mare. I mean, its really just a unicorn in a roid rage. And Navery. But Navery should be a 3 slot pet.......
     
  26. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And what you have no concept of is how challenging it actually is to play a tamer in pvp, especially a tamer whose primary form of dealing damage is their pets. The other thing that you and others don't seem to grasp is that a pet is a piece of equipment. It does absolutely nothing except die without a tamer to control it.

    Pvp'ing against a tamer with a pet is no more pvm than pvp'ing against a mage is "pvs" ("player vs. suit") or against a dexxer is "pvb" ("player vs. bokuto" if that is what they are using).
     
  27. Penderrin

    Penderrin Journeyman
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    Exactly why I play my tamer the most! I play to relax.

    I stealth on my tamer. If my cu is taking a beating and fenced in I just stealth up and jump on it, hiding it with me. Then I can just ride out. A gargoyle cant do that.
     
  28. Casca_The_Immortal

    Casca_The_Immortal Adventurer
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    That's interesting because I have 3 120 tamers (Show real) that I worked up from 0. I have plenty of "concept", I've been playing the game for 13 years. I just don't think Tamers belong in PvP because as stated PvP stands for "Player v. Player". They should make a new facet for tamers that want to PvM against other tamers or something. I'm not saying there isn't room for you tamer pvm v pvp guys, I'm saying that it doesn't belong in PvP. Call it something else and put it in Ter Mur.
     
  29. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Something tells me that based on what you have posted you haven't done much serious pvp'ing as a tamer. There are plenty of players out there with fully trained tamers that don't really know much about playing a tamer, let alone a tamer in pvp. And there are plenty of players that pvp with pets that also don't really know much about being a tamer...
     
  30. Nexus

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    I properly match my pets to what I'm fighting, that way I only have to vet a little, no worries about moving....besides if you stand directly under your pet (I stealth to that position) everything will attack the pet first, not you, just stand there and use a bandage... I even have a UO Assist macro for it so I can just hit one button.
     
  31. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Super Dragon should indeed be 2-slot pet, so you can have two for new "Dragon" pack instinct. Introduce a new 1 slot ridable pet about as strong as a dread warhorse but helps you bump the pack instinct up one more level.

    So there you go, this change should hold tamers off for a few days. Then they would probably want all pets to be 1 slotter, with stygien dragon and slasher of the vail made tamable and taking 2 slots (with their own respective pack instinct) and a 1 slot 600hp mount that fire breathe for about 45dmg casting magery and necromancy spell with a "Wild" instinct to work with 2x slasher or 2xstygien dragon combo or any other pack instinct type.

    There... that should balance tamer out a little bit. But still room for improvements.
     
  32. Casca_The_Immortal

    Casca_The_Immortal Adventurer
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    Something tells you that? That's what my whole response was about. If I don't believe in something (aka I don't think PvM belongs in PvP) then why on earth would I play the template? Did I say I'm a hypocrite? Of course I wouldn't play a "PvP" tamer, it's ********.

    I never die to simply a tamer btw, it's usually two tamers that get me on a dismount w/super dragons or a gaggle of newbs that dismount me, attack me like a flock of seagulls while I'm being eaten by a super dragon... etc...
     
  33. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I play my tamer mage in PvP, and my dread/bake out damages than I could with magery spells. What you are asking for is you want to be able to play your tamer in PvP like you could in PvM. All kill and cross heal... so people die and you are happy. Well again, my pets do most of the damage and I pvp very well, I dont see your problems other than your ideal of wanting to be able to "all kill and forget" and you would like a kill with that PvP (?) strategy.
     
  34. Uthar Pendragon

    Uthar Pendragon Seasoned Veteran
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    When people stop attacking my tamer in fel then I will stop using my pet to attack back.
     
  35. Casca_The_Immortal

    Casca_The_Immortal Adventurer
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    The easy solution here is to not allow tamers in fel.
     
  36. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As I said, you have no clue what you are talking about. And I find it rather interesting that in the same thread you call pvp tamers "a bunch of lazy overpowered morons" (note the use of the word "overpowered") you say you "never die to simply a tamer". So you think a template that you know nothing about playing in pvp, that can never kill you one on one, is "overpowered"?

    I believe you were the one that used the word "hypocrite", although that might not be the best word for your prejudice and phenomenal use of logic.

    I guess you missed that part in one of my posts. That's ok, we all miss things, some of us more than others. And of course you are right. If you play a pvp tamer in "all kill and forget" mode you are going to die, over and over again, and I certainly have never asked for that capability. In fact I don't believe I have asked for anything in this thread.

    All I have done is point out that the typical pvp'r and Stratics anti-tamer prejudice is completely baseless, and founded in ignorance. And if you truly do play a tamer in pvp, you should know that what I am saying is true. And if you play a tamer whose primary form of damage in pvp is your pets, and you are successful, and you aren't playing on Siege, you are one of the very few in the entire game.

    Now if you are playing on Siege then we are talking apples and oranges here. Playing a tamer in pvp on Siege is entirely different than playing a tamer in pvp on any other shard, for a number of reasons.
     
  37. BajaElladan

    BajaElladan Certifiable
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    Hail Folks,

    First this Thread should be moved to the Tamer Forum where it belongs.

    Then it should be moved to spiels and rants or deleted like far to many Threads I contribute to.

    Until one or both of those occur, I have interviewed my young Cousin Dar for his views which are as follow:

    When polymorphed into a Gargoyle form I seem or at least think I fly faster than I run in elf form. So simply turn yourself into a gargoyle (in form only) and fight or fly, er flee, hehe.

    For those Tamers w/o Magery, oh well!

    Elladan of Baja

    p.s. Greater Dragons have already suffered a fairly severe nerf since their creation
     
  38. Uthar Pendragon

    Uthar Pendragon Seasoned Veteran
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    How about they not let you in fel? no... well then dont tell me I cant play there k. thanx
     
  39. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Yes absolutley. Greater Dragons are killing the tamer!

    If only the dev team would change it so that when you say 'All Kill' it would do 5,000 hp of damage to everything on the screen and put any loot directly in your pack and give you max luck and give you a choice of 15 tamer only colors to dye your hair.

    Please. Tamers are most overpowered class in UO. Who else can go to Navery, Say All Kill, and read web pages until the spider drops?

    I'd be happy for tamers to be removed from the game. GD's made tamers even worse. They are the worlds greatest meat shield.
     
  40. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Kinda like how John Holmes got hurt because of his huge ****

    I mean he had to walk with that thing in tow....
     
  41. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Better solution. Don't let greater dragons be tame-able and those tamed ones that exist should be reduced to a regular dragon.

    There you go! Problem solved!
     
  42. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    None of you will beat my fully trained goat!
     
  43. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    It has been said for a long time that balancing this game in it's original form was a nightmare and near impossible, I tend to agree with that belief. And of course trying to balance the game post AOS to where everyone has a fighting chance must be a nightmare from a development point of view.

    Then again I don't know much about tamers, I had one years ago but the most impressive thing I ever tamed was a jet mare.
     
  44. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Unbelievable.

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that a tamer can do in game, no matter how well equipped, experienced, or skilled that tamer may be, with any pet, including the greater dragon, that a well equipped and skillfully played sampire can't do much faster, and with far less danger to their character. And there are many things that that same sampire could do, that a tamer would be stupid to even try, and would have no chance of success.

    And I am unaware of any event since greater dragons have come out, or any content that has been released, where there hasn't been at least some high end content, where tamers weren't basically completely shut out because it was impossible to keep a pet alive and participate in the event, or engage the highest end mob or mobs. Your post embodies the prejudice and ignorance I was talking about in my other posts.

    I cannot think of any context in game, in pvp or in pvm where a tamer is the best best choice. There are contexts where tamers do well, but there is always a template which would be a better choice than a tamer.

    There are hybrid tamers that do well in pvp, but none of them on my shard are in the very top tier of pvp'rs. There are tamers that do well in pvm, but there are always template choices which are more efficient, which will do the same job faster, and with less danger to the character than any tamer.

    And it isn't just sampires, if sampires were completely eliminated from the game, there would still be other templates which would be a better choice than a tamer for just about any pvm context. And of course as sampires aren't a pvp template, it would still be true that tamers would still not be the best choice for pvp.

    I play a tamer because it is fun and challenging, both in pvp, and in pvm. Not because it is "uber", or because I am lazy. In almost any situation I could probably do better with one of my other characters, even though I haven't spent a tenth of the effort or gold on all of them combined than I have on my tamer.
     
  45. Nexus

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    My Sampire?


    No seriously... Tamers are over powered but only against certain things. They have no benefits from Slayers unless they are casting directly, have a melee skill, or are a bard. I can easily out damage any pets tamers have against any mob with my sampire by picking up the proper weapon. At cap swing speed I can pop Medusa for example for 80-180 a hit faster than any pet can lay down that type of average damage granted I average in the 100-150 damage range usually but still that's 100-150 damage per second! My Gargoyle Sampire using a slayer Soul Glaive maxes out at around 230 damage per hit and that is without capped DI granted his over all swing speed is slower but you get the point. Even with Greater Dragons and Cu Sidhe the only way a Tamer will be able to out damage a Dexxer that is equipped properly in PvM is by using a full pack of Frenzied Ostards, and their Hits are so low they are almost pointless against really high end stuff, you'll spend more time rezzing them than killing things, and if the damage types vs Resists matches up right.

    The fact is Tamers aren't over powered, players are just being lazy and replacing skill with ability to take damage.
     
  46. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And I'll let you in on another secret that the most experienced tamers are well aware of. Pets are situational, just like weapons are. Specific pets and pet combinations are more or less useful depending on the context, and there is almost always a better choice than a greater dragon.

    As you said, greater dragons do make a good meat shield. That is about it.

    What is ironic is that greater dragons were introduced to be the ultimate high end pet, but it hasn't worked out that way. Greater dragons tend to be the pet of choice for less experienced and less skilled tamers. The most experienced tamers will tend to use some other pet than a greater dragon.

    I'm not UO's greatest tamer, but I am fairly experienced, and my greater dragon hasn't left the stable in the past two months and I have one of the best all round greater dragons on my shard.
     
  47. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yes, but Sampires require much more effort, many more skills, and waaaaay more items. Tamers can just stand off an heal.
     
  48. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    You make it sound much easier and simpler than it is. After all, what good does the pet do if the tamer ends up dieing? The tamer may control a powerful creature but the creature is only one pet, it can't exactly stop every monster and area attacks from hurting and killing the tamer.

    And if the tamer is too busy keeping themselves alive the pet, which can't exactly keep itself alive very well on its own, can easily end up dieing sealing the fate of the tamer.

    This, of course, is the case even if the tamer has great armor.

    Thus a good tamer will need as many skills, effort, and decent items to keep themselves alive in addition to their pet.
     
  49. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    These days with imbuing and the new artifacts sampires are easy to build. And yes, if you are in low to upper mid level pvm situations you can "stand off an heal", but you had better know what you are doing if you want to take any pet including a greater dragon, into a high end pvm or a pvp context.

    But even in low to mid level pvm contexts tamers really don't have it any easier than any other template. It just seems that way because tamers are popular. But you take any advanced pvm capable template into a low to mid level pvm situation and they will do just as well, if not better, than most tamers.
     
  50. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'll let you in on a little secret. I play a tamer mage. My main character is a tamer first, a character that relies on pets for primary offensive capabilities. I think the number of macros and keybinds that a player regularly uses in playing a character in combat is probably a pretty good indication of how complex that character is to play.

    My tamer mage has well over two dozen macros and keybinds that he uses all the time in combat. I have a G13 game board with all 24 possible keybinds used on one bank, and another dozen on my G15 keyboard, plus at least a couple of dozen icons on my game desktop. I don't use all of those all of the time, but that should give you some indication of how complex that template is to play.

    I'll repeat myself. My tamer mage is easily the most complex character template that I play.