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Tamers - Lore before you buy

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by kitiara-atlantic, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    Hi all -

    I've noticed in the new Magincia Bazaar on Atlantic that a few new stalls have popped up listing greater dragons for sale for huge millions (10 mil, 15 mil, 25 mil, etc), all labeled as "Four Point whatever" (referring to the Pet Power Calculator rating).

    Be aware.... I've lored these dragons and they are NOT 4.x rated. They're all 3.x and not worth anywhere near what they're priced at. (I sell 3.x GD's in the 1-1.5 mil range untrained).

    Lore pets before you buy and either run them through the Pet Power Calc or if you're using EC, Pinco has incorporated the same calculation in the Animal Lore gump in his UI.

    FYI!! Buyer beware! Just because it's named 4.x doesn't mean it is.

    (And if you buy from my stalls, I promise I've run them through the calc!) :)
     
  2. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    What am I missing? I just dont understand how this pet power number really works. I have some pets that simply out class in all aspects another pet with a higher power rating.

    Why would anyone use this broken calculator?

    If you have a PERFECT pet except it has a low cold score and the range is say 25-45 the difference on the calculator for a 35, A decent score drops that pet by a full point because it rates it as 50% instead of 93%

    I have rune beetles that kill 4s every time that only rate as low 3s!

    I just think players put stock in this tool so they dont have to THINK! and thats exactly what this thread is about. If they dont want to think about it let em buy those crappy dragons.
     
  3. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    well, in my Ui the lore gump highlight every stat/skill/res with a customizable percent and you can set to ignore a stat.

    Obviously the rating will count all like the pet power calc :)
     
  4. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    The reason a lot of sellers use pet power calc figures is to give buyers a rough idea of how good the pet's stats will be. It's up to the buyer to then lore the pet and see whether it rates high but isn't so good or if it truly is a great pet. But in UO today you'll find so many players who don't want to go to the effort of learning and figuring things out. They're the ones who see 4.5, think "oh uber draggy" and buy without checking. Annoyingly also the ones who won't pay for anything less than a 4 because the concept that a lower figure might still result in a useable pet... I gave up on that bit of negotiation!

    It's sometimes a rough way to learn how to read the lore stats, but many tamers need to learn the skills of their profession so they don't rely on fancy tools of any sort to be a tamer. For starters, figure out what the stats translate into with each creature - learn what the priority ones are for what you're using the pet as. Sadly though, tamers today want max power instantly, the shortest shortcuts for training, and they don't want to stop and figure things out. If you say "lore and match up pet to foe" you get blank stares followed by "so what should I use to kill swoop?" like I'll recite a list so they don't have to think lol. *steps off soapbox* Sadly tamers who just read 4.5 are a scammer's perfect victim, but it's like any vendor shopping in UO - there are gougers and there are normal traders. It's like rares that ain't rare :D

    My tool is a notebook with max stats for all the pets I commonly tame. I'll open a book in game with the max figures in it before I start a taming session. I tend to shorten the numbers so say resists of 40/30/50/80/70 become 43587 as I read the lore pages. Then it's like remembering a phone number or pin number. By the time I've lored 2-3 the figures are bouncing round my head just fine. As a buyer the same book method works a treat.

    Wenchy
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I always put the ppc rating on my pets, but I put it on them as they would be when they are fully trained, because in my opinion that's the only rating that matters. I have put on "x.x when fully trained" but it makes the name cluttered, but perhaps I should do it anyway.
     
  6. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    What "works" is that the calculator lays out a set of assumptions (HP is worth x%, resists are worth x%, skills are worth x%) and under those guidelines allows you to compare apples to apples.

    Of course, if you do not agree with those weighting assumptions, the calculator will not "work" for you.

    It's most often used as a quick way to rank the ballpark value of a pet. It was originally created when I was farming cu sidhes and needed a quick way to tell if a pet was worth stabling for future evaluation, or if it needed to be killed off immediately.

    I'd argue that it isn't "broken;" It works perfectly fine according to the clearly stated assumptions that it makes. If you disagree with those assumptions, then it is not a useful tool for you. Wenchy proposed a good notebook solution that you may prefer.

    That's an inaccurate statement. The calculator bases the score on the min-max range. I believe you're confusing the narrative at the bottom of the score results (where it lists percentage of max) as the scoring factor. It is not. As stated on that page, that narrative lists percentage of max (based on 0-100%, not based on the range). The power score, however, is based on the range. The narrative is just... a narrative. I've considered removing it based on this exact misunderstanding.

    Congratulations! Sounds like some good rune beetles. One thing that the calculator does not factor in is the rune beetles' important poisoning skill value, which may very well be a contributor to effectiveness for this pet. I surveyed people a while back on whether or not they'd like poisoning factored into the score (similar to how greater dragons have a different weighting scheme on their resists than other pets), but there wasn't enough interest.

    Part of me agrees with this statement, but I still would rather warn people. There are new tamers out there that haven't learned the ropes yet and aren't just lazy. I'd rather give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Thus, the warning.

    To that end, I created the Best Battle Pet tool - to hopefully help tamers understand how a monster's resists match up with a pet's damage output, and how a monster's damage output matches up with a pet's resists. Understanding this can go a long way to truly understanding how good a pet is (and thus reducing reliance on tools like the Pet Power Calculator).

    However, as a very experienced tamer, I still use the calculator, particularly on fresh tames when I just want to thin the herd and narrow down the keepers quickly.
     
  7. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    So what your saying here is the "tool" does NOT infact calculate the (IMHO) 2 most important pets in game properly?

    I would also note here that on the lesser hyrius you've managed to set the max limit to pre tamed values so a perfect wrestling score of 108 reads as a deficit since its looking for the 120.

    And when you take into account the the hyrius cold resist the range is so small that a single point under perfect counts more then 15 points on its fire resist because of percentages.

    Now with that said I will applaud you and commend you on a great project and a lot of work as i am sure you've put into it but...

    Its just broken
     
  8. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    2 pets? Only see mention of one. And as you pointed out "In your opinion" which explains why "It's broken" and why everyone else thinks it works just fine.
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well for what it's worth, I do think both the rune beetles' poisoning and eval int should be factored in to the calculations, as well as the skills that can be over 100 after taming for any pet. That's what I do with my own rating system and is the reason why I use the PPC only as a sales tool.

    I'm not knocking the PPC. As I've said before, it has revolutionized the way people farm for and buy and sell pets, but I do think it has a weakness with regard to the inclusion of skills in the calculations.
     
  10. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    Incorrect. Greater dragons DO have a different calculation formula than other pets, where their highest resists are weighted more heavily than their lowest resists. That was done because people here showed great interest in a more specific rating for greater dragons.

    I surveyed the boards here and on UOForums and players that I know in-game to see if they'd like the same thing done for pets with skills that train above 100, like poisoning on rune beetles. There was not enough interest for me to devote the time to it.

    That is why there is no special skill calculation for pets with GM+ skills. Not enough people cared to see it added.

    If that has changed, and the taming public would like to see that added, I will add it. I've been as responsive as I possibly can to meeting the requests of the majority of players with this tool. Sadly, I can't please everybody - and in your case, it sounds like you're unfortunately one of those people.

    But please feel free to suggest improvements. If enough people are interested in the same improvements, I will gladly code them.
     
  11. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    I will put to you this way.

    My tamer is a vampire swordsman with parry lore and vet.

    Name another one!

    I bet if you can the list is very short. The pets I tame for myself are very specific to task. I have only found 3 pet types that can range into perfection and one is the mare.

    My mare(sold as i race changed to garg) was 7 points of resist off from perfect! Now with that in mind the PPC works exactly as planed. With rune beetles however that fantasy has ended and the real differential equations begin and I just dont see any way to preform the types of problem solving needed via the PPC.

    I have sent an apology to kitiara as that was necessary, However it has gotten past the reigns of decency with "some players" in that a "score" is more important then performance and role and template! To where If I plan on selling a pet it cant have a low this or that to up the parts that are necessity and mocking has ensued based on arbitrary numbers generated by a party that surely is not directly involved!

    With that I would not take part in destroying a players hard work but instead playing it down a notch to bring it in line for what it was designed. A helper. A tool. A reference. Not an overlord or a line of divide amongst players.
     
  12. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    Thanks, 5% - and really, I do welcome the feedback. I completely agree with you that some players don't understand the role of the calculator. Some rely on it completely, to their own detriment - because they'll always have a substandard experience fighting with pets that aren't suited to the template or role they're intended for. Some abuse it, as how this thread started, by making the numbers the be-all, end-all to scoring millions in gold.

    The calc isn't intended to be any sort of final judgement on a pet. It's really just meant to sort pets into apples-to-apples sorts of categories in order to BEGIN making a baseline comparison.

    There are so many steps after getting into the right ballpark that have to happen in order to truly find your perfect match of a pet. And, the perfect pet literally changes from one situation to the next. There's no way to build a perfect stable of pets using just the calculator. It's a starting point.

    That said, I'm hoping to sneak a few hours into playing around with a skill tweak to the calc. It might just get implemented regardless of the poll results, as some well respected tamers consider it important (5%, Llewen, etc).

    And I am definitely going to rework the narrative results that follow the pet score. They've been a source of confusion, and it's time to fix that!

    Thanks, all, for your feedback. I'm honored to play amongst a group of such dedicated and passionate tamers.
     
  13. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I agree with this, I never personally claimed to even use the tool as I know exactly the max stats for what I am going to tame before I go and tame them. I also keep in mind what resists I am looking for and skills and so on, since I will forever be looking for perfect pets I need to know this information myself.
     
  14. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    The calculator is a nice tool, nothing more. I use it to sell, because too many tamers are too interested in the raw numbers. I agree that those skills that train/tame above GM should be factored into the equation. Though I value resists the most, I think the calculator over rates them relative to skills and stats. As an example, I really don't care too much about cold resist in most of my pets, but I highly value strength and hit points. I also highly value wrestling, and to a lesser degree tactics, in tanking pets. For Rune beetles, high eval is important to me because in my observations, they seem to poison more than bugs that just have high poisoning...nothing scientific just observation on that one. FWIW.